Love Beecher's entertaining readings of stories like this, broken down in plain English like we talk... and then McLellan's awesome deeper meaning explanations. Great combo! 🙂
I’ve listened to many people discuss this. But this was by far the clearest and most interesting discussion I’ve heard! Thank you so much! Can you just go through the entire Bible chronologically and help me understand it? 😂 I always want these to be longer!!!
Nah, they're not. There's dozens of passages in the Bible where prophets are angrily railing against all the foreign idols in the temple. A very select few people were monolatrous or henotheistic, and they wrote the Bible. The nation was polytheistic. When the book of Kings gives out report cards, pretty much every northern king and about half the southern kings fail on the YHWH-only front. Hell, Solomon is the one who BUILT the temple, and he was also encouraging the people to worship Chemosh, Ashtoreth, and Milcom too. YHWH-only seems like it didn't really take hold til Josiah.
@gekksvide0 wow. What a privilege to have him as a professor. I’m sure you learned a lot. I only recently started reading his material. Great guy. I’ll look into Dan McClellan. Haven’t heard of him until now.
I love this podcast. I have tried many times to read and understand the Bible but am unable to go beyond Exodus because it gets boring or becomes incomprehensible. In this podcast, episode by episode, we are led through scholarly insights to ancient biblical texts that are so clearly explained that I can actually relate to the biblical figures and their motivations. They were as perfectly imperfect as we are today. And to think that nations and peoples who hold Abrahamic cultural and religious precepts feel morally justified and even duty-bound to this day in perpetuating these same power struggles.
Glad to hear this story, im from jordan's south, part of the historical kingdom of mo'ab, and we learned about this story from the histroical mo'abiate perspective, never knew it was mentioned in the bible as well
@@alanhyland5697 i don't remember much since i studied that back in school, but the main difference is that the mo'abites didn't record much details, simply that their God has given them victory over the israelites and their God, and that the king of mo'ab has conquered a place in Madaba that was controlled by israelites, and killed its population, and took religious symbols of YHWH and brought them to his God. I'm sorta struggling to translate the terminology, you can look up the mesha stele and read the English translation. I don't recall what else we were taught about this confrontation
@@Goodguy507 Thanks a lot. I wasn't looking for full details or anything, so this was perfect. It makes a lot of sense that the Israelites would prefer to 'forget' this part.
Always love exploring this side of Yahweh's activity. I'm still intrigued by how the Deuteronomist (even if obliquely referencing it) found it suitable to say Yahweh lost the battle due to a more powerful god, especially considering how the undergirding royal theology was "obedience = victory, disobedience = defeat." Wouldn't it have been more convenient to simply say someone important sinned against Yahweh and incurred his disfavor, as they did elsewhere?
Dan, I read somewhere, I think it was something Michael Heiser wrote regarding the god of Israel and Judah, although both being YHWH, there was something about that they were sometimes seen as different YHWH's and that was the context and purpose of the Shema, to assert that Yhwh was one and the same for both..
According to the general consensus of scholarship *(even critical Christian scholars),* YHWH was originally incorporated into the Canaanite pantheon as a son of the Canaanite high god El before inheriting the top spot in the pantheon and El's wife Athirat (Asherah) before religious reforms. If you want to see if El is fictional, just read his mythology in the Ugaritic/Canaanite texts. His pantheon in Ugarit is called the *Elohim,* literally the plural of El. "When El was young, he came across two beautiful Goddesses washing their clothes in the Sea. They were Athirat (Asherah) and the Goddess Rahmaya, and, after buttering them up by cooking a meal for them, he asked them to choose between being his daughters or wives. They choose the latter and became the mothers of the Gods Shachar "Dawn" and Shalim "Dusk"." *"First, a god named El predates the arrival of the Israelites into Syria-Palestine.* Biblical usage shows El was not just a generic noun, but often a proper name for Israel’s God (e.g., Gen 33:20: “El, the God of Israel”)." "I should add here that it is very clear from the grammar that the noun nachalah in v. 9 should be translated “inheritance.” *Yahweh receives Israel as his “inheritance” (nachalah), just as the other sons of El received their nations as their inheritance (nachal, v. 8).* With this verb, especially in the Hiphil, the object is always what is being given as an inheritance. Thus, Israel is given to Yahweh as his inheritance. ((Here I’m indebted to Dan McClellan.)) It would make no sense for Elyon to give himself an inheritance. Moreover, as I’ve argued elsewhere, it is not just the Gentile nations that are divided up according to the number of the sons of El. It is all of humankind, i.e., “the sons of Adam.” This clearly includes Israel. And the sons of Adam are not divided up according to the number of the sons of El, plus one (i.e., plus Elyon). They are divided up, according to the text, solely according to the number of the sons of El. *Thus, that Yahweh receives Israel as his inheritance makes Yahweh one of the sons of El mentioned in v. 8. Any other construal of the text would constitute its rewriting."* *"The Most Heiser: Yahweh and Elyon in Psalm 82 and Deuteronomy 32 - Religion at the Margins"* based on the *majority scholarly consensus.* (Written by Thom Stark who is a Christian) *"Michael Heiser: A Unique Species? - Religion at the Margins"* (A second response to Michael Heiser) *"Excerpt from “Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan” by John Day - Lehi's Library."* *"The Table of Nations: The Geography of the World in Genesis 10 - TheTorah.com"* (Excluding the short narrative on Nimrod (vv. 8-12), which appears to be a later addition, Genesis 10 contains *70* names of nations or cities, a number that was symbolic of totality. Similarly, the descendants of Jacob were *70* in number (Gen 46:37; Exod 1:5), *as were the sons of the supreme Canaanite god El, with whom YHWH became equated.)* *"Mark Smith: Yahweh as El’s Son & Yahweh’s Ascendency - Lehi's Library"* (Mark Smith is a Catholic) *"God, Gods, and Sons (and Daughters) of God in the Hebrew Bible. Part III | theyellowdart"* *"02 | December | 2009 | Daniel O. McClellan - Psalm 82"* (Daniel McClellan is a Mormon) *"Elohim | Daniel O. McClellan"* (Refer to the article "Angels and Demons (and Michael Heiser)") *"God's Wife Edited Out of the Bible - Almost."* (Pay attention to whose wife Asherah (Athirat) is in the Ugaritic/Canaanite texts and how she became the wife of YHWH/Yahweh) *"Yahweh's Divorce from the Goddess Asherah in the Garden of Eden - Mythology Matters."* *"Married Deities: Asherah and Yahweh in Early Israelite Religion - Yahweh Elohim."* *"Asherah, God's Wife in Ancient Israel. Part IV - theyellowdart"* *"The Gates of Ishtar - El, was the original god of the bible."* *"The Gates of Ishtar - Anath in the Elephantine Papyri"* (It appears in addition to Asherah (Athirat) being the consort of Yahweh it also appears some Israelites also viewed the Canaanite goddess Anat(h) as Yahweh's consort) *"Canaanite Religion - New World Encyclopedia"* (Refer to the section "Relationship to Biblical Religion") *"The Syncretization of Yahweh and El : reddit/AcademicBiblical"* (For a good summary of all of the above articles) Watch Professor Christine Hayes who lectures on the Hebrew Bible at Yale University. Watch lecture 2 from 40:40 to 41:50 minutes, lecture 7 from 30:00 minutes onwards, lecture 8 from 12:00 to 17:30 minutes and lecture 12 from 27:40 minutes onwards. Watch *"Pagan Origins of Judaism"* by Sigalius Myricantur and read the description in the video to see the scholarship the video is based on. Watch *"How Monotheism Evolved"* by Sigalius Myricantur and watch up to at least 21:40. Watch *"Atheism - A History of God (The Polytheistic Origins of Christianity and Judaism)"* (By a former theist) Watch *"The Origins of Yahweh"* by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica.
@Wannabe_Scholar "After this, El conceded to Baal’s ascent to the throne, instead of Yamm. Now let’s look again at Psalm 82: ’Elohim stands in the council of ’El In the midst of the gods he holds judgment. “How long will you judge unjustly, and show partiality to the wicked? Selah Render justice to the weak and the fatherless; vindicate the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.” They have neither knowledge nor understanding; they walk around in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said, “You are gods, sons of Elyon, all of you; nevertheless, you shall die like mortals, and fall like any prince.” Rise up, O ’E-him, judge the earth; for you shall inherit the nations! Thus we see that Heiser’s objection-that El does not issue a judgment here-is irrelevant when the background material is considered. El does not issue a judgment against Yamm, either. *In both cases, the young warrior deity (Baal, Yahweh) asserts himself and takes judgment into his own hands, and in both cases, this is how the deity ascends to the throne.* El’s silence in Psalm 82 may be reflective of El’s impotence in the face of Yamm in the Baal Cycle."
So, the divine council is essentially the place where the children of EL can go whine to their parents...."BROTHER MOLOCH took my toy!!!" Lol Good to know
There's several problems with the deuteronomistic texts that appear to be introduced by their authors. The first that i have to get out of the way is Ba'al and its various meanings. A ba'al can be a king, a lord of a great family, a minor god, or a top god of some region. In the Hebrew bible tgey often don't give details. In fact in Isra'el there are several Ba'al deities that we are aware of. There is the Ba'al of the aramaens, Hadad, the ba'al of mt Gad (Mt. Hermon, also the name of one of the tribes), the ba'al of the twin cities i believe the name is hahan or haman. There is also ba'al berith. The point I want to make however is that in the hebrew book of judges and samuel, theophoric names ending in "iah", if we discount the book of Ruth don't start to inflect upwards until the philistines kill Saul. But what I do see in the text is a certain level of embracing gods in judges, including Ba'al, such as Gad, the go of the two gateways. So at first in judges, if you followed Anat, it was cool. Anubis, no problem, Gad and Shalim the same. But increasingly as we proceed toward 2 Samuel there is problems witg Ba'al of the Damas (Hadad - which is interesting because Hadad was originally a NW canaanite god), the Ba'al of the phonecians. The ba'al Chemosh. And we dont really hear much about Anat or Shamesh, but the names of those places still exist. More over, up until the time of David people put Ba'al into the name of their kids. So I would argue that iah was attached originally to Bethlehem and the surrounding area. It not until David essentially steals the Benjaminite city of Shalim that you really start to see the rise of Yahudite theophoric, and even then its still less popular than 'El. Im kind of convinced that the early god of Yahudah was Yahu/Ea, but that later a desert "version" of the god swept through parts of Israel and became popular, as mention by Ba'alam, who came with two other gods. The decrease of theophorics to other gods probably took place as a result of the kingships as a part of consolidation of power. One of my hypothesis is that the Israelite kings specifically took on the old canaanite substrate gods, sons of dagan, but gave a pass to the lower mesopotamian gods El, Anat, Shamesh, Ea, Sin etc. Its kind of like Fascism, first you start with obvious targets(In this case hadad), once you finish that you need to keep the movement going so take on less obvious targets and repeat until the only group with any power are the core of the fascist movement. I think the story of moses comes with the Yahw of the Arava and not with Yahu of Beth Lahmu.
54:40 I always have interpreted that Psalm like asking God to rise up and do something in favor of His people, but know have an ever deeper meaning for me... is like "rise up and get the throne of the Most High". I don't know.
So Yahweh suffered a loss to Chemosh? When do we move to a theology or world that declares there is only one God, instead of the tacit understanding there are competing gods?
I'm a little confused as to why Dan is so positive that the merger of El and YHWH happened quickly or under a single king, especially given Deuteronomy 32. It sure looks like that passage already has YHWH recognized as the state deity (Israel is his inheritance), but represents Elyon as a separate deity. Does this not imply a transition period?
I've heard lately that Psalm 82 is basically the allowance of Adonai to overthrow and remove the other local deities, making Adonai the head of a monotheistic religion, perhaps even tied to the cult centralization that took place under Josiah. Even if that dating is incorrect, the wording seems to allow for Adonai to take command over the other gods. Like Dan says, it condemns the gods to mortality except for Adonai, leaving Adonai as God over all others.
If god only had power in his land, how was he able to defeat the gods of Egypt and lead the people out by parting the Red Sea and creating miracles (literarily speaking) Thanks
Wiki "Canaanite religion" for a list of known canaanite elohim. He not only took Israelite soil, he took sanctified soil from the alter at shiloh. You cannot build an alter to the high god unless you have sanctified soil. The assumption was you got the blessing of the priests of the tabernacle.
„Then Joseph had another dream and told it to his brothers. “Look,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”“ Genesis 37:9 1:00:55 The stars can be humans as well
Does Adonai or Elohim, Yahweh whatever evolve from a common origin of the Greco/Roman Zeus? Do they have a common antecedent or are they ever considered to be part of the same pantheon because what is being described is a very Greco/Roman view of deities? Their view being that there was one pantheon and when you encountered other deities, they're just a misunderstanding of the Greco/Roman gods.
44:10 „If he called them gods to whom the word of God came-and the Scripture cannot be broken-“ John 10:35 Are you certain that Psalms 82 refers to angels ? It makes more sense to apply it to the legal rulership of Israel who were promised eternal life if they kept God‘s commands, but were to die like men if they did not.
1:02:00 I am still baffled that scholarship makes no connection between a „new“ God rising in Israel and God sending an angel before Israel to conquer the land. Of course this angel must have risen to prominence and since he was /is a warrior angel, why are you surprised that he subdues other gods and humiliates them. Was this not the purpose after all to rise up Israel and punish those nations and drive them out ? Sounds like a huge conflict between those angels. The fact that Adonai rose after El confirms that God sent this angel. „You performed signs and wonders against Pharaoh, all his officials, and all the people of his land, for You knew they had acted with arrogance against our fathers. You made❗️ a name for Yourself that endures to this day. You gave them kingdoms and peoples and allotted to them every corner of the land. So they took the land of Sihon king of Heshbon and of Og king of Bashan. So their descendants went in and possessed the land; You subdued before them the Canaanites dwelling in the land. You delivered into their hands the kings and peoples of the land, to do with them as they wished. They captured fortified cities and fertile land and took houses ❗️full of all goods, wells already dug, vineyards, olive groves, and fruit trees in abundance. So they ate and were filled; they grew fat and delighted in Your great goodness. You admonished them to turn back to Your law, but they were arrogant and disobeyed Your commandments (Ps 82!). They sinned against Your ordinances, by which a man will live if he practices them. (Ps 82 - ye shall die like Adam) They stubbornly shrugged their shoulders; they stiffened their necks and would not obey.“ Nehemiah 9:10, 22, 24-25, 29 This also goes against Ps 82 being a divine angelic council. In my understanding.
And I thought this was going to discuss the Heavenly Family of ancient Israel. Namely El the Father and His Wife Asher and their two Sons, Baal the rebellious Son and Yahweh. When idol worship to Baal arose he was discontinued. And because El and Yahweh were so similar, they were combined, and Asher became the consort of Yahweh. Later idol worship for Asher arose, and she was phased out, though not completely. She continued as Lady Wisdom, especially in Ecclesiastes. And was still associated with Eve the mother of all mamkind and the Virgin Mary the Mother in Heaven of God in the form of Jesus Christ the Son of God. One problem, the "they" who returned to their own land after failing to break through, were the Moabites. And of course the Moabites were angry or had great indignation towards Israel. And it's only natural that the Moabites made it sound like they drove off Israel, while secretly paying the tribute. The same way Ramsis III said that his father drove the Hebrews into the wilderness to perish. But nice try. So the only other gods aside from God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, were the men that God made gods by speaking it into existence. Yet there is only one God, with none formed before or after. Because the one true God is plural. Many gods of many generations, yet all God, becoming one as Jesus Christ and the Father are one, and as yhe Apostles became one with them,as all the righteous do. They all become gods, and so they become God, like those before them(without beginning), and like those who will come after them(without end), generation after generation forever. Inheriting all things, including God's power of creation, which God never gives talents to be buried, but to be used. For it's only natural for a father to hope his children will take over the family business. Which in this case is creating worlds and populating them.
