I suppose as someone who perhaps plays mostly plays 2-player, I have someone else to take cares of schemes more efficiently and more targets for Ground Stomp
I love this idea. Before watching, my worst 5 cards are: Spider-Man - Webbed Up Captain Marvel - Helmet She-Hulk - Legal Practice Iron Man - War Machine Black Panther - This is really hard… Can i pick the energy resource version of Wakanda Forever? 😂 Can’t wait to see how my picks line up with yalls!
Webbed Up: This card is also great for a nasty minion that you cannot deal with right now. Or neutralize a few rounds… and maybe win in that time. Spider Tracer: Underrated. Yes it is not the most ideal threat removal card however, 1) if gets around patrol and confuse. 2) it removes threat from ANY scheme. 3) It does matter who defeats that minion. 4) 1 for 3 threat removal is above the cost curve.
The minion use is interesting! I do think most minions attacks aren't bad enough to justify a 4-cost card to stop them twice, but I'm sure there are a couple of cases where it is. Wish we'd explored this in the discussion!
We have a She Hulk home-rule. She starts with Gamma Slam in play as an upgrade (like Valkyrie's Death Glow) which still costs 4 to activate. When you use it, it goes out of play --but if you use Legal Practice and max it out with a full 5-thwart for 5 cards, then you replace Gamma Slam. This makes GSl more accessible, and LP more fun! However, Ground Stomp is a very situational card --much better in multi-player. We only play multiplayer, so GSt hasn't been disappointing.
Great point! On the one hand I want to say it's unusual to stay alter-ego for long with Spider-Man (and most characters really), so usually you'll be in hero form at some point during the round and able to play Tracers + defeat a minion regardless. Like how most heroes would be hero form at some point in the round to just take a hero action to thwart. However that is excellent if you go alter-ego and draw Tracers from Moongirl or something similar. I like it.
Captain Marvel's hat is her worst card because the other contenders have an energy resource which she can make good use of. Otherwise I agree with the choices. I actually quite like Ancestral Recall. BP always has some critical cards at different stages of the game and this helps get them. He's also usually resource rich. I've played him a ton recently in Justice and it's been one part of the engine to really unlocking him. Webbed up suffers from the way expensive cards in this game should be disproportionately strong as they're disproportionately hard to play and it isn't. Warmachine also suffers from this and an overcosted ability. Discounts and buffs tend to exacerbate the problem. Spider Tracer is great since I started with both in my hand against expert Klaw with the minion being Weapon Runner (old story). It's hard to find GOOD cards in She Hulk's kit. Ground Stomp is one I can't remember ever playing though. Very fun exercise I look forward to more. I expect the power levels will rise gradually as there are fewer dogs nowadays but still some head scratchers.
I always enjoy your videos VillainTheory, and this was a really amazing and fun idea, but the best thing about it is I have a new channel to watch in WinningHand. Really enjoyed his delivery and insightful comments. This was all around a great video.
Oh! This is why I like multi-player. I played She Hulk Justice + Rocket Aggression vs Green Goblin Mutagen Formula. Plenty of Minions --and Rocket LOVES when She Hulk hits Ground Stomp. MORE OVERKILL! It's so funny when it's better to NOT kill the minions --just soften them up for Rocket. ;-)
I LOVE this video series idea! I think you all under-valued crisis interdiction with the new cards we have available that can increase the threat removed per thwart (like Lone Operative and Passion for Justice), as Carol can get extra value out of her events this way. Player Side-Schemes also improve events that hit multiple schemes since you have a better chance of having two schemes to affect (the main and your player side scheme). Initially I would have agreed, but I think this card's utility has improved with the mutant wave. I'm also surprised you didn't discuss the value of Webbing Up Elite-traited or upgraded minions. While Spiderman wants to take hits from the villain, he doesn't necessarily benefit from minions attacking him. Webbing up a big minion so you can focus on the villain has a lot of usefulness. It can help him buy time to do the damage to remove the minion (especially if it has guard), or can effectively ignore the minion while you focus on defeating the villain. Two turns of getting to ignore a big minion is huge, especially in Solo. I think Ground Stomp and War Machine have improved with the prevalence of Tough statuses on minions and villains. Both ignore guard, aren't attacks, and impact all enemies, not just those engaged with you, so in three and four player games, their value goes up quite a bit, as well. And as Actions, they can be used/played off-turn to set up another hero's big attack against a previously tough enemy - even one with retaliate. These are still niche cases, but I'm more inclined to play and use some of these events now than I was against core set or wave 1/2 scenarios and modulars. Conversely, I think Legal Practice has gotten worse with the introduction of SHIELD Justice and Disguise (it is a thwart event and can remove confuse for 1 card, though). I probably would have picked Captain Marvel's Helmet and Legal Practice over Ground Stomp and Crisis Interdiction with our current card pool and scenarios. Regardless of my differences of opinion, I loved the breakdowns, discussion, and focus on less-well-loved cards in these heroes' kits!
I think gamma slam, focused rage and superhuman strength is bad card too. Those cards are not the worst card, but it seems to be cost is expensive by 1. She-hulk seems to be a very weak hero because many of her cards are so bad.
Definitely Webbed Up for Spidey. I see it as a 7 cost card in practice. 4 cost to play it, and 1 cost for the effective resource of the card itself being played. Then you're missing out on the opportunity cost of two extra cards to draw, nullifying backflip's use in your deck and preventing you from drawing deeper into what you want. Playing a 1 cost ally would trump Webbed Up for me every time. Spider-Tracer will always have potential to have value (plus it's cheap, which I wont knock) because Shadow of the Past will always find a way to hit you lol. BP's is Ancestral Knowledge. I get the point of it is to put missed upgrades back into your deck, but it doesn't really do much for you. For Iron Man it's War Machine no question. My most played hero of all time, I can maybe count on one hand the amount of times I've played Rhodey. Just too expensive for a bad effect that's barely gonna help you, it's not happening. In a world where War Machine was good though, my vote would go to Stark Tower. I think it's a bit of a trap card that can sort of hurt your tempo when played early (and late you shouldn't need it). Cap Marvel is hard, she's just good overall. I go with her Helmet. I like playing for tempo, I'm rarely gonna find the time to invest 2 resources for increasing my defense when I'm not building her to defend, I'm thwarting or attacking. Crisis Interdiction is admittedly not good, but I think if you build her around Aerial it's fine. I like Superhuman Training for her and getting out Cosmic Flight with it. She-Hulk, come on. It's Legal Practice. Ground Stomp is not gonna be winning any medals, but atleast it's not tanking my entire hand to get a facsimile of value.
If War Machine had 2 thart, toughness, aerial and avenger I would pay 5 for him. Piercing is also a good shout. Captain Marvel is rich and aerial is a very desirable trait these days.
Does Superpower Training save both of those Spider-Man cards? I play a lot of multiplayer and honestly it's pretty great getting a tracer when a friend has a minion they're about to KO so we get the threat and then I can web up to protect two other friends and still play another card because Spider-Man has a lot of money.
It helps Webbed Up but I don't know if it saves it. Though it's already at its best in 4-player. With dedicated thwarting on the team, Superpower Training is good but in solo I never bother with player side schemes on Spidey due to his bad thwarting and it's no priority at 2-player.
For Spider-Man, it's interesting that his two worst cards get better in multiplayer. You've got more chances for minions to hit the board and more activations you can stop with Webbed Up to protect other players while still getting your Spider Sense card draw
Agree with you there. Spider-Man blocks for 2 and probably himself with that. Solid card especially if he is the protector. With spider tracer I was thinking of an aggression deck with the aggression attachment that gives them patrol then using into the fray to defeat the minion to remove a lot of threat? Maybe my lunch time
Not sure I'm reading the rules right, but both Ground Stomp and War Machine get around retaliate, because it just says, "do damage," not "attack." Whenever we run into a retaliate situation, we're always reaching for some of those [non-attack but somehow damage them anyway] solutions.
You're correct on the rules! The problem is that it's usually more cost-effective to take 1 Retaliate damage than pay for poorly costed card. But sometimes it's great.
Ancestral knowledge: Yeah not the best but every playable. Shuffle Nick Fury, Double Resource and Wakanda Forever… or an upgrade you need that got discarded for some reason. War Machine: The best reason to play him is to get him out of the deck so he gets out of the way of your repulser blast. And I think if you use his action and the “cost” of the damage defeats him he doesn’t even do the damage? But he can deal 8 damage for 4 cost with the flexibility of an ally. Not the best but it’s ok. And the Shield trait has some uses. Crisis Interdiction: It has the energy resource icon which is very useful for her. And if you need a thwart it is there. But yes bad value.
Well I'm glad Villain Theory was negotiable with Webbed Up vs Tracer... Oh wait, not so much. For me its not even close how much more usable Webbed Up is over Tracer. Yes its expensive but its never a dead card.
I mean, I did go with Boomguy's choice twice in this video and we only went with mine once, I hardly think I was unreasonable. I do still stand by Webbed-Up but it's okay to have different opinions
The only time I've actually liked playing ground stomp was in a 3 player game to get rid of 3 toughness. I'd say its usefulness definitely improves by player count.
War machine isn’t just Iron Mans worst card, he’s one of the worst cards in the game. I don’t think I’ve played him. If playing solo, I’ll swap him him with basic WM ally who is playable at least
I personally think webbed up is underrated. Stopping two activations is such a huge tempo swing imo. Also, it multiplayer its value goes up as sure it may not outright defend you but your mates will really appreciate not getting attacked.
Hey that's fair. I did agree with putting Webbed Up at the top of these options when ranked against each other. I still think it's generally poor value for its cost but it has a place.
I really do think spider tracer is worse then webbed up. The minion requirement is just painful sometimes, and even if there is one you often have to use a swinging web kick to take out the minion and I'd rather send those toward the villian.
Black Panther was also the first hero I ever played, VT! I just finished playing Iron Man 10 times (twice in each aspect), and I didn't play War Machine a single time. I'm actually wondering if I've ever played him.
It’s wild to me that spider tracer beat webbed up. neither are great, but webbed up scales much better at multiplayer and helps at least somewhat with steady and stalwart villains. it’s too expensive, but if we’re factoring in the two cards lost into the cost then we need to factor the resources needed to defeat a minion assuming it’s even in play. when you consider how varied minions are, you’ll probably have to spend 2-4 effective resources plus 1-2 basic powers to defeat them, making it way more expensive, especially for only 3 threat.
I'm glad Webbed-Up has its fans! For what it's worth, I believe most minions that are seen in a typical game are usually defeated anyway, so the cost to defeat them isn't really an extra cost for Spider-Tracer. It's an extra hoop to jump through however, and the awkwardness of sequencing and bringing that all together at the right time? Horrible solo - but much like Webbed-Up improves with other players around, there are plenty more minions in multiplayer and other players to help slay them. It's super easy to pay 1-cost, drop it on a minion the team was always going to defeat, and go about your turn. That's 3 threat removed for the team. Contrast with an defensive card that's already overpriced baseline, on a hero who is already really good at defending, that blocks Spider-Man using his best most efficient card (Backflip), stops him drawing 2 cards in solo play, and potentially still stops him drawing 1 in 3-4 player unless you're 3rd or 4th in the turn order (and even being 3rd isn't good enough if the villain is also stunned and/or other players are alter-ego). There are a couple of scenarios where I think it shines but I don't even think it's worth it for most of the steady/stalwart villains. Every card has its uses, and Spider-Tracer was the other card in contention for me, but I absolutely do not need Webbed-Up while Spider-Man needs all the thwarting he can get. And in multiplayer, Spider-Tracers gets better as well. So that was my logic really!
@@VillainTheory Great points! I’d argue that while it is significantly better in multiplayer, there can still be some odd sequencing issues with others having to save their events and activations after spider-man’s turn, especially if he’s last. Not a big deal though. And while the card draw is nice, it’s important to note that you’re either using his basic power or a defense event to mitigate the incoming damage. Two extra activations and not needing to pay for defense events seems to even out in my head (though you’re probably more familiar with the math than i am) And finally, i was referring to the total cost of resources to defeat a minion as more of a combination than totality. So a minion might require 2 activations or 2-3 resources (4 if it’s a nasty one) or some smaller combination of both. But you are right that they need to be defeated anyway
Thinking more about the economics of Webbed Up. Sure, I get where you're saying the effective cost is 5 in two player, or 6 in solo --but you're forgetting another cost savings... No need for defense for two turns. Because you may (or may not) be playing a couple 0-1 cost defense cards if the villain is attacking, that saves you 0-4 resources. Situationally, it can be more economical to play Webbed Up, even in solo.
That's the thing. It's generally worth around 2 resources to deal with an attack. Webbed Up means you don't have to commit anything to defense, because you already committed to Webbed Up. But since all Webbed Up does is prevent attacks, it is your defense. So Webbed Up is 2.5 (ideal multiplayer situation) to 3.5 (solo) effective resources per attack to defend, ultimately being more costly than usual.
@@VillainTheory Mmm. Usually, it costs 1-2 resources + exhausting Spidey to deal with an attack. Webbed Up keeps you ready for other things --er, although 2 attack and 1 thwart aren't spectacular options... ;-)
That's a fairly expensive way to defend in the modern game and not ideal. If it's something like Desperate Defense or Not Today in Protection, you get other benefits from those such as readying or threat removal! And generally Unflappable will then trigger, something else Webbed Up prevents. Other ways to get better value would be defending with Backflip, an ally, or simply defending for 3 and later healing through Aunt May.
@@VillainTheory I think he only works in 4 player games. From what I know the game is primarly designed around multiplayer. Then he can work in some scenarios I guess
I've used Ancestral Knowledge in my Black Panther "expensive" protection deck, where he has a lot of expensive upgrades. I always pull three double-resources back into the deck and just keep playing expensive cards. Fantastic in Multiplayer.
A very enjoyable video, thank you both. I've got a long drive tomorrow so discovering the Winning Hand Podcast is well timed! I'm aware that none of the following make Web Tracer a great card, but in its defence:- -it can combo off Angela and Looking for Trouble when playing aggression, which I find quite fun -I think the way it's worded (ie doesn't "thwart") means it gets around crisis icons and patrol minions, which can be useful in some niche situations. I might be getting the rules wrong there though... In defence of Webbed Up, there are a few powerful minions with a lot of health and high attack or nasty effects when they attack (eg Radioactive Man making you discard a card from your hand) that it negates for a couple of turns whilst you look for a Swinging Web Kick or just wear them down.
Oh fantastic, I hope you enjoy their podcast! Great points too. I do think there's an argument to say Webbed-Up is so expensive that it's barely worth using on minions, even on a minion like Radioactive Man (2 damage and 2 cards lost across 2 rounds, vs. playing a 4-cost card (effectively 5 cards lost from hand if paid for without resource generators)), but that is very interesting use to consider! And so thematic to just web up an enemy to buy you time.
I think ground stomp is better than you're giving it credit for ESPECIALLY in multi-player since it hits all enemies, not just the ones you're engaged with. But even outside of multi-player I think it has a lot of use for when the enemy starts to swarm, multi villian scenarios or you have 2 attack allies but three health minions which is very common. Also while it does exist even as the game grows, there aren't a lot of cards that allow you to hit every enemy at the table at once.
It definitely has some use, though 1 damage across the board has big limitations. For 3 hp minions, She-Hulk can just attack. And for every 3 hp minion, there are plenty at 2 or 4 hp where Ground Stomp won't help your 2 ATK allies. But it definitely has uses, there's a reason it wasn't my initial choice!
Webbed up is not only better than tracers in higher difficulty villains, but a good card. Usually It costs way more to defend a villain's activation than its cost, plus it ignores stalwart.
I'm a solo player, and I agree with you on this. A lot of times, I don't even use Spider-Tracer when there is a minion because I play with a lot of allies to make up for Spider-Man's lack of threat removal, and they have often already taken care of the threat.
I would say it's quite a lot cheaper to play two 2-cost allies if we're factoring in the power of them attacking/thwarting using their abilities as adding immense value. And they can then block just fine. Webbed-Up does avoid boost cards but if it stops 2 attacks against you, you draw 2 cards less over the turns, putting it basically up to 6-cost + the card itself. And prevents you from using Backflip should you draw into it. Its first use against stalwart is good but it's rare there's ever one activation to stop worth 4-5 cost in my mind. But it's fun that it can do it!
@@VillainTheory True, though I guess I have a recency bias, too, since I've been playing every hero in every aspect against Sentinel, and, generally speaking, one can't use allies to block against Sentinel without putting oneself at great risk. One cool thing about playing Sentinel is seeing how effective it is to get to use your allies for their full lifespan on the board (rather than chump blocking with them -- and sometimes using fewer allies for some heroes than I normally would). 🙂
I'd say I've mostly played Spiderman in a Voltron deck with 3 buffed allies, no chumps and even there it's hard to play. Solo it's the fact that it doubles down on something he already does well and has the anti-synergy with his spider senses on top.
I think these cards show that the design early on was much more focused on multiplayer, with solo more as an afterthought. In a game with three or four players, being able to do damage to all enemies can be pretty strong if you look at the pure numbers. Spread-out damage is generally less valuable of course, so I still think Ground Stomp and War Machine are marginal. If Ground Stomp had been an Attack I think it might have been stronger, since then you could have used Martial Prowess to help pay for it or Warrior Skill to boost the damage.
It’s such a shame that Ground Stomp isn’t an attack event, or else it’d have amazing potential in Aggression. But that does mean you can use it while Stunned, which might be useful every once in awhile.
What an interesting concept! It's really fun to look back at some of the clunky aspects of the older hero designs in the game. It makes me wonder how differently some heroes might be represented in the game if, say, they started with X-men in the core set and got to the Avengers around Wave 5.
One thing not mentioned with Ground Stomp is that it is a superpower, meaning Deft Focus can discount. Even at 2ER, it's not good but I've certainly played it more than War Machine (and legal practice) But overall, I agree with this list.
As supermax mentions, I did shout it out in the later half. But it's still kinda rough. Interestingly, lots of comments are positive on Legal Practice. I wonder if it's the player count difference?
