I'm so surprised with Synth Suit! It's my favorite card. It's an auto play as soon as it hits my hand. I play her in protection with the armored vest and having 4 DEF and readying every villain phase by triggering preparation cards feels nice. And every time I flip down with Black Widow, I regret it because then I can't trigger my cool preparations.
Cap's Helmet is his worst card, because in a multi-hero game Shield Toss is amazing for minion control. Hulk Smash is not Hulk's worst card, it's actually his best. If Hulk and Rogue are out, Rogue is going to use Superpower Adaptation to grab Hulk Smash.
The problem I have with your Black Widow choice is that it sounds like you're assuming that she's always in Justice. In Aggression or Protection I'm not sure if she would have the thwarting ability to keep up with threat if she went down every other turn.
Captain America: I agree with both of you. I like both cards, but they just don't get played very much. BW: DoD is not my favorite card, but it still seems to get played a lot because there aren't very many big damage cards in justice or protection, where BW really shines. Hulk: I agree with VT's thoughts on efficiency vs fun. When someone plays Hulk Smash, they involuntarily announce, "Hulk Smash!" So it's definitely a fun card to play. ;-)
@@VillainTheory I'm sure it has it's uses. I would just rather play anything else. And with Build Support being a thing to scoop Asgard I imagine wanting to use it even less.
I really enjoy these videos a lot, mainly because I think the discussion around why these cards are the worst for a hero also reflect on what makes a card good in the first place. With that, I have to levy one major criticism of the video for me: there is too much discussion on (or perhaps stock put in) resource efficiency. Resource efficiency is a very useful tool in evaluating a card compared to other similar cards, but it has to be used in the context of a hero's kit. If you are comparing aspect cards, resource efficiency is a great tool, but comparing a Swinging Web Kick to a Big Hands is and using resource efficiency as a primary criticism is flawed. You are not able to pick one card over another in a deck build, and each card exists in a completely different ecosystem of hero cards. For example, Big Hands is a much more complex card to assess than SWK because you have to consider embiggen, potentially returning the card to your hand with your hero ability, biopolymer suit, etc. In fact, if you play big hands with embiggen, pop it back to your hand, and then play it again, you have spent 5 resources for 10 damage and have the ability to split that damage up into 2 chunks. Also, Peter Parker tends to have more money, and can therefore afford SWK more easily than another character could. All of this to say: I think effective resources/efficiency is a great data point, but it should receive less consideration precisely because these aren't just cards, they are HERO cards. They have to be considered in the broader context of the kit. For example, Ancestral knowledge may actually be a much better card in Ms. Marvel because she already has 3 different named events that are pretty solid, but it's in black panther and therefore its not good. Similarly, Synth-Suit could be really good on a lot of heroes, but is much worse because it is on Black Widow and she wants to play the game away from that upgrade most of the time. I don't want to sound overly harsh or like I want the videos to be something they are not; I really like this discussion and your content as a whole! My biggest pet peeve in MC is people over-using efficiency as a metric, when in my opinion function/synergy/reliability are all more important considerations. And for what it's worth, Synth-Suit would have been my choice over Dance of Death! I will say my actual choice for worst BW card is Widow's Bite, precisely because it was ruled to not work on quickstrike! Since I normally want to kill minions in 1 turn anyway, stunning them doesn't matter. It's biggest positive is that it has a preparation keyword, but that's about it.
Great reply! Thanks for the detailed feedback! Unfortunately I think my channel is one of the channels that talks about efficiency the most because I do believe it's extremely important. With that said, I do try to highlight that you need to strike a balance, and what you *need* to do is more important than what is numerically superior. It's on that note I do want to clarify (in case it was missed) that I do defend Big Hands by saying that I do play it as sometimes it's the only option you have to do what you need (in other words, it has the function you need when there's nothing else to rely on). It's a card I play quite often. But then, I also play Red Dagger fairly often. And Sneak By. Ms. Marvel's cards, while not all spectacular, are all useful in the context of her kit. Or, as it is with Red Dagger, simply a good flexible ally. But then to play devil's advocate (sort of), with the example you give, you if you play Big Hands then use your hero ability to bring it back, then play it again with Embiggen, that's 5 effective resources AND you exhausted your hero AND you had to have a specific upgrade in play. If I'm Spider-Man and I play Swinging Web Kick and exhaust him (in this case to basic ATK), that's 10 damage for 4 effective resources and an exhaust, no upgrades required. And that is also split into two chunks - though of course one is larger at 8 damage so it's still more unwieldy. But the point there is that double Big Hands is still behind in damage-per-resource despite the help of an upgrade before we even consider the fact that Spidey can just afford things more easily on top. So, Big Hands isn't great but it's perfectly playable. Which is actually the point of the series. To say good things about cards which aren't universally praised. That they each have a solid use! I fear I rambled a bit but hopefully this added some interesting perspective. And to touch on a later, different point of yours, Widow's Bite was another card I considered for Black Widow as well. That quickstrike ruling is increeedibly sad.
Totally agree with For Asgard! The only good use for it is in a deck where you want to search our Lady Sif for Sidekick or MAYBE really need The Bifrost.
I thought he was trolling with the Hulk Smash pick . I can't think of a reason to play Hulk other than to Smash for 13 with overkill. The fact that it can be hard to pull off is, in a weird way, part of Hulks charm. Like he's so bad that even his good cards can be bad, but it's satisfying when it works.
For me: Cap. America: Toss > Helmet, I play the helmet to take it out of the deck. Black Widow: I like Dance of Death more than the Synth-Suit, still think the suit is very good though, but I'm usually not playing it until I can really afford it 💰 Hulk: Hulk Smash! is his best card, that's usually how I finish villains , if you have to play Sub-Orbital Leap is probably because your allies or other players are not doing well.
@@VillainTheory haha I'm not gonna lie, I let out an audible gasp after he said it. When I'm explaining how the game works mechanically for different heroes to a new players, Cap's Shield and Shield Toss are the example of cards I reference.
Captain America, one of my favorite heroes! Here I agree with VT, I’ve used shield toss way more than the helmet, specially after a villain phase goes minion crazy.
Oof Shield Toss is the one that may get you some fan backlash lol!! I hear you on some of the drawbacks of ST that you mentioned (resource costly and shield returning to hand), and while I wish it stunned the enemies it hit (would that be too powerful?) I just think it's such a fun and super satisfying card thematically for Cap! Four damage to potentially five or so enemies?! This is so fun in a multiplayer and it has tipped the scale of quite a few games for us. I have to say Helmet is definitely the worse card in this case and I can't remember playing it or using it. Loving this series by the way, great job to @VillainTheory and @WinningHandPodcast - can't wait for the next video.
Shield Toss isn't a very inefficient card. I agree that it is the second worst card in his kit though. If you hit 1 enemy (the villain) it has an efficiency of (4)/(2+1) = 1.33 which is a bit less than you would normally like. Swinging Web Kick is 2.0 and Uppercut is 1.25. But if you hit 2 enemies with it it has an efficiency of (8)/(3+1) = 2.0 which is on par with swinging web kick. It is definitely true that you might be overkilling minions making it slightly less efficient, but also, what other card can take out that many minions? I agree with basically everything you both said about both cards. I think I prefer Shield Toss over the helmet, because if you are at 1 hp and you can't win next turn you will have to flip down to recover anyways. Note: On the efficiency calculations I did there I was assuming part of the cost was just replaying the shield. It becomes wildly efficient if you don't want to play your shield again lol but I don't think it makes sense to think about it that way.
I do like Shield Toss, and thinking back I've even built multiplayer decks around it with other multi-target attacks and Warrior Skill/Aggressive Energy. It really shines in scenarios like Mutagen Formula.
Very fun again. I only really disagree with Shield Toss - would the Helmet be A tier? Shield Toss can be underwhelming but has high ceiling. You never* lose the shield unless you use it as a resource. I'd argue Vapours is DrS worst card as it can gum up the invocation deck... Thor has 5 hand size in AE making For Asgard! that bit more truly terrible which is a shame as he has a few more interesting bad cards to look at. Hulk is depressing. Ms M has a lot of very ordinary cards, it's a wonder she's so good. Red Dagger is imo where allies should be not where they are, especially basics. Still he has no synergy with MsM. BW has no bad cards. Dance and Synth suit are both a bit tricky to play. Dance feels amazing vs 5 hp tough minions and appalling vs Retaliate * Hardly eveeer!
Heads up - though you obviously still have to pay for it, they've ruled that you can use Vapors even if there are no status cards in play. So you can power past it. Not ideal, but it does help a lot.
Edited now I’ve watched the whole video Omg….. I love shield toss. This actually upsets me 😂 If you’ve minions on the board, there is no other card that makes me feel more like Captain America. Admittedly it gets used a lot less at true solo…. But it can be a really efficient card and resources are never an issue in a Captain America deck. Black widow I think it’s widows bite. Thor agreed Doc Strange agreed Hulk agreed Ms Marvel….. is the worst card her hero card and stats, but yes Red Dagger is probably the correct card.
Yeah I’m definitely Theme bias…. But even ignoring my clinical diagnosed faults, being able to hit 4 enemies for 4 damage each (thank goodness this isn’t a Thor card) for an effective resource cost of 2…. I think it’s an amazing card Are you ever NOT playing it against wrecking crew? An awesome series of videos guys. Great content and look forward to being flabbergasted at the next
Shield toss vs Helmet, I think really comes down to solo vs MP. Shield Toss is a perfectly serviceable aoe card in MP especially since it can hit minions on multiple players and I play more than helmet. But I can see the opposite being true in solo. BW is definitely tricky as no bad cards. I agree w VT and think it's Synth suit as it's aspect dependent. Good in Prot, but I don't actually like BW-P (too slow), making it really only good in L as RR can trigger it in hero phase. Ms Marvel is also tricky, but I also think Red Dagger. Decent card but doesn't synergize. And I'm sorry, calling Hulk Smash his worst card is a wild take (it's his best card lol) it's Suborbital for sure.
TLDR: Helmet is worse. The statement describing pitching Shield Toss to get off “4 damage” via basic attacking isn’t a correct evaluation. You’d always have your basic attack anyways so at best it’s worth 2 as a ready. At 2-4 players it’s almost always usable due to minion odds. You only need 1 minion for it to hit efficiency curve since you can always target the villain. Total cost including replaying shield and 2 targets puts it on par with Uppercut in dmg/resource. Every additional target past 2, turns it from good to great.
I realized on watching it back that I never said anything much about the basic attack evaluation, I do agree and I do love some Shield Toss. Great multiplayer minion damage especially.
Agree. I avoid taking the defense action, and am always looking to deal damage and get rid of tough cards, especially if I'm playing with a heavy hitter in the other hand who needs those toughs or "guard" minions out of the way. The suit, while nice is just a lot of cost for not a ton of return on my play-style, especially after round 3. **Edit** Same with shield toss. I don't defend as much with Cap as he's got a nicer amount of HP to play with. Might be why I lose so much 🤔
Synthsuit, I agree. Dance of Death, uh no! This card is basically a piercing before piercing existed. It's not a bad cost ratio given that it can be spread out across minions as well or setup another ally or hero for a better kill if they have overkill. I'll never turn down versatility.
Thanks for having me! This was a ton of fun and I’m looking forward to the comment section to see how people react… Also can’t wait for the next episode!! 🎉
Great topic: Underrated Cards Love the callout for PlanB vs Mystique's "junk" - have actually been there, even when choosing Hero deck before random villain/s! 😀 Though I think it loses some (not much) versatility in MPer, where (most) people are running sharable resources (eg: Helicarrier, A-Mansion). But I've still run it in such...just because "everything, including the kitchen sink" is a theme!
Hi Villain! This was a really interesting video. I particularly like the analysis of cumulative probabilities of getting your nemesis in play depending on how many turns have been played. The kink in your Standard3 curve didn't make sense to me, so I created a python script that simulates card draw from a 30 card deck with the 7 cards from Standard3 shuffled in. It then runs 1 million games and keeps track of how long it took to get to 4 counters (solo game), and creates a probability distribution. I get a similar but slightly different result to what you got and I thought you might be interested to compare. There are plenty of assumptions, as you noted in the video, so it is a bit of an academic exercise, but in case you'd like to see the results I'll try to find a way to send the Excel file and the python code to you :) Thanks for the great content, keep it coming!
Argh! I heard about the Strange shortage recently but was hoping it would be resolved. It's such a popular pack you have to imagine they'll keep printing it. Captain America still seems plentiful here in the UK right now, but that sucks if he's unavailable elsewhere. He'll probably sell out soon here too. Fingers crossed things are back soon or an alternative becomes available. Until then I recommend Rogue instead of Strange. Cap is harder to supplement but, if you end up going for another expansion, Mad Titan's Shadow has great Leadership cards.
Loved this video, and I'm super excited for the next pairing video. Obviously Cyclops pairs well and Colossus not so much. I think personally I would choose Wolverine over Phoenix. Phoenix does cover Spider-man's two main weaknesses, but she kind of just covers one or the other (restrained or unleashed). I would find her a lot harder to pilot for that reason. Wolverine covers the minion issue easily, so with him you would just need to make sure one player runs justice or leadership to cover the thwart.
I would have given a more adequate response sooner to the most looked forward to video for MC since Tonee Tales was around and I urged him to make this same video, but this released suddenly on same day I had my gallbladder yanked out 😅. I feel there is so much to talk about this topic, if you haven't had this discussion with the podcast already, I recommend the topic, as a strong community building tool to introducing the game to both new card gamers and experienced non-MC gamers is smart for longevity and growth. I agree with what you said on focusing on more events than build management complexity, that is good where it can apply. I used to be strictly aggression for new players, but the evolution of the game has changed that opinion greatly, and now I am open to aggression, self-heal protection, and 'Pool. I also tell my experienced players they can have only one draw set (Nick Fury, Taunt, etc.) outside of Avengers Mansion and hero kit cards so as not to have prolonged turns or make another player feel insignificant, and I use same rules when making introductory deck to eliminate overwhelming the new player. I reccommend too a video that shows sample builds to make for new players. Next comments will be my thoughts on your choices, and my own list.
So as for your picks, they are quite different in premise from my own list. They overlap some heroes, but others we approach teaching in different ways. One of my big no-nos is being sure I don't introduce a new character that is radically different from the natural order of the game. For instance, Gamora is one of my top 5 heroes I love to play, but she cheats different aspects into her build; I'd hate to introduce a new player with Gamora and now they have an expectation they can throw any splash of aspect they want into their deck building with any hero, it could be a major turn off. Also I feel there are major gimmick differences between heroes like Captain America and Quicksilver, as Captain America has a cost to ready (good) while Quicksilver cheats and just readies, and this could create a bad habit in a new player's mind they can ready once-per-phase with any hero because of the simplicity of Quicksilver's gimmick. For me, I am trying to look into the subconscious possibilities of uh-oh moments these new players might accidentally create and affects their enthusiasm to continue playing, and that is a big factor in my selection of what heroes I offer them. Before I even considered this process, one of my friends first impression with the game was Hulk, and he hated it because of the constant discard effect combined with low hand-size (game was still relatively new too, I think Star Lord was latest release at time, so no Limitless Staminas either). Thor appeared to be only hero I gave pause and considered could be more approachable than I once believed, but I think he still is too complex because his gimmick is sometimes he can aggro too many minions onto himself by accident with own event or put Mjolnir back to hand with event and new player might not juggle resources correctly to get back into play. Lastly, I'd say Obligation and Nemesis do play a factor on hero options to give a new player, as an early hit of either could affect game impressions: I remember Gamora's nemesis set is just utter punishment.
So here is priority I have for heroes to learn and enjoy the game: 1 is hurt enemies, and 2 is keep themselves alive. Any other choices made beyond those two come naturally and is explored by either their own kit cards typically or seeing the roles of how other experienced players use their heroes with their aspects. I also give little to no allies to new players, it's just extra rules they don't need to learn during first game session despite their good utility. I believe giving them the boxer job of KO-ing without getting KO-ed themselves is the most primal, efficient, and most action-oriented function a new player can latch onto and understand without being overwhelmed. After that, if they want to tackle justice, leadership, or perfect defense protection, it'll be because they witnessed another player succeed on making it look gravy and fun.
We play Rhino with Hydra Patrol module lately as a quick punching bag. Idk if this is most effective villain and module for new players but I do know Hydra Soldiers give better odds when defeated to Charge and immediately attack, or double attack, as potential risk. Otherwise you're just letting Rhino have more tough and healing opportunities to slow game session down for more teaching opportunities. Complexity 1 Heroes: Captain America, Captain Marvel, Drax, Spider-Ham, Spider-Man (Peter Parker) Complexity 2 Heroes: Ant-Man, Bishop, Black Panther, Colossus, Groot, Spider-Man (Miles Morales), Venom, Wolverine So I have five complexities of heroes and I copy/pasted first two above, and Category 1 is my experience of what is most accessible while Category 2 I'd only hand off if someone had Magic the Gathering or some other complex board game experience. 13. 12. and 11. will all be Bishop, Venom, and Wolverine in no given order. You have to take damage to gain benefit, and that could be a recipe for disaster, but fortunately the three of them are all otherwise straightforward heroes. 10. Colossus. Similar to logic above, instead of managing life he is managing toughs as a resource, but the access to Limitless Stamina and has better survival makes him rank higher than the previous three. 9. Ant-Man. This is only three-side hero I allow newbs to play, as the responses are simple to understand. 8. Miles Morales, Spider-Man. The versatility and enemy control Miles offers is very good and keeps newbie alive and effective in the field. 7. Black Panther. Simple goals of more Panther upgrades, the more utility for Wakanda Forever. Vibraniums great too for extra spending power for remainder of build. 6. Groot. His tokens have dual purpose of keeping a new player alive as well as opportunity of a second currency that doesn't upset the flow of the aspect, giving two-layers of success to learn with. 5. Spider-Ham. Similar to 13-11, life as currency is dangerous, but Ham is the superior of these other heroes. 4. Drax. Has good health and hero-side exclusive goals, yet is rewarded with extra healing when flip to alter-ego is needed. Drax has one job: attack well. 3. Captain Marvel. Despite low defense, great health management and resource hero. 2. Peter Parker, Spider-Man. Focus on attack and defense is phenomenal and simple, and has good resource and alter-ego options too. 1. Captain America. Versatility is bonkers, and build-out acceleration and stuns are powerful. King of teaching players how to play the game with understandable costs for effects, such as ability to discard to ready.
Hey, thanks for the in-depth response! I've been waiting until I had the proper time to reply. Great points. I also agree that, when introducing someone new, other players shouldn't go too crazy with their decks. I have also enjoyed having new players start in Justice or Leadership, but largely only when introducing multiple players at once. It's pretty straightforward to tell someone their job is to keep the yellow tokens down, and once someone understands how one ally works then - as long as you gave them straightforward allies - a whole Leadership deck should be pretty simple to manage (though Leadership is better for people who've played other cards games before). 'Pool and Protection are generally what I avoid most for new players ha! We had Gamora in a game at our local store yesterday and the Shadow of the Past came up, and it wasn't bad at all. I would argue Captain America's, Venom's, Ant-Man's and Wolverine's are worse for example. The obligation was fine too. In fact, getting to go alter-ego with it was quite helpful as they got to use their alter-ego ability. Of all the characters you name, Colossus is the one I disagree with the most. He made my Top 10 Complicated Heroes video and I few people argued I didn't put him high enough on that list haha! But those are fun characters who I generally agree with. I'll give the idea of example builds some thought!
@VillainTheory the different teaching approaches and methods to this game is very interesting. Yeah, that would be great to see beginner-friendly example builds, when and if you get time. Thanks.
