EVOLUTION OF THE SCRUM 🏉 | 1967 - 2023 

Backs should stick to what they know, and let the big boys play the rugby.

if you think its random i reccomend you watch more rugby to further your knowledge

@@James-rc6qq it was a joke mate

@@callumgolding7191 I appreciated the joke, Callum. I used to work with a bloke who was also a Rugby Union ref; he once told me that nobody understood all the rules including the refs.

No mate, not true. Look at "Scene 1": The scrumhalf got penalised for not putting the ball in straight. Crazy, isn't it?

Dangerous? How so? They happened quickly, and remember most of those players back then were more normal sized, not the monsters of today. Owen Farrell would have been a second row or flanker, not a center or flyhalf, not that there weren't some sizeable back line players then, like the late David Duckham.

@@ldfreitas9437 exactly right, I was considered a player back in the 80's but now, I'd be lucky to bring out the drinks for the players due to my size. Some players these days are like mountains

@@ldfreitas9437 yeah smashing your heads/neck together with barely any time to line with a run up definitely isn't dangerous lol

yes, in the old days the ref's involvement was confined to 'scrum here, blue ball' - and the scrum was many many times more functional and produced fast ball

Agreed - great observation.

Did you marry his sister?

Might you still be concussed?

hard men back then no doubt, no HIA, no red cards for anything below outright assault...pretty brutal game in the 80s...

I remember a lot more neck injuries back when I was playing 80's in the scrum than now, the shouts of pain and "Neck, Neck" from within a scrum was always scary even at school levels.

@@EvilFinian you must have played for the scandal Ballet 15. Played all through the 70’s and 80’s and never heard any off the guff you remember.

@@dennism5731Ahh bless your little cotton socks.

@@dennism5731The fact you can’t remember might be part of the problem

It's still in the laws but it was a shock to see it enforced.

@@joshuataylor3550 actually, it’s only a free kick if not straight (Law 19.15), but even then, agree that it should be enforced more.

They updated the law a few years back in recognition of how unenforced/unenforceable this was. The scrum-half now has license to feed the ball towards their pack, his/her outer shoulder merely has to be in line with the middle of the scrum

The hooker no longer has to hook the ball, the feeding is so blatant these days it makes League look more of a contest.

@@Thewouf Made 'unenforceable' by giving the ref nanny duties, back in the day the Ref said diddly-squat and got the job done.

Couldn't have put it better myself. Watching the feeding after all that fuss is so annoying. Almost as bad as paying attention to the clock from when a scrum is given to when the ball is in open play again.

scrum is supposed to be a punishment. makes no sense for the ball to be put straight

.....make that 2 million.....

I wonder who will have lived longer? The wiry players of old or these muscle bound players of today?

Today's players will live longer but they'll get dementia earlier.

They are jacked up on special juice nowadays which is why they all look like WWF wrestlers.

@@championthewonderhorse9733 That is the easiest thing in the world to say..............so go on, where's your evidence? You know that sportsment are constantly drug- tested, don't you?

@@MikeAG333 wada give permition to take doping Simone Biles Nadal Michael Phelps, Norwey Asmatics winter atlets, Williams sisters , and a lot over americans

Lots of hand bags there!

Where did you get your figures from? You're saying that the average pack is now almost 100kg heavier than it was 23 years ago - I can't imagine it's THAT much, surely? Edited to add: looking at a couple of articles it looks seems the 2019 England WC team forwards were on average 10kg heavier than the 1991 England WC team forwards which I definitely could believe given it's pro vs amateur era. I'd have thought the weight difference from 2000 to now would be a bit smaller though given the 5 years of professionalism? Interesting stuff though, and with that context we couldn't go back to a 60s - 80s style scrum without risk of life-changing injury to players. That said, modern scrums can't go on the way they are as they're killing the game. I'd like to see an emphasis on the scrum as a way to restart the game rather than a means to win a penalty. Bring back straight feeds, and introduce a maximum 5 seconds for the attacking team to get the ball back into play or a free kick goes to the defending team. That'd speed things up...

In the video it shows the pack weights twice in 2000 and 2023. but I may have screwed up on the conversion of stones to kg. I used 6.35kg/stone. I was surprised a bit as well.

@@michaeltrumper Fair play mate, I didn't notice the weights in the video and after I posted my comment I did some digging and found the difference was much higher than I thought it'd be so I came back and edited!

@@linalmeemow No worries. I do find it astonishing how professionalism has had such a profound effect on the players.

Maybe Fickou, and some others like Dupont, Couilloud, Taofifenua who were around there as substitutes. Not a lot indeed

I would dispute your choice of the word "athletic". Australian Rules players are also "athletic" but they are not the size of houses! For me, this is the issue. When I played rugby, back in the late 19th century ;) players were, in general, far lighter than they are now, therefore the pressure on the front rows was far less. Plus, if you watch this piece, you'll see that the starting position for front rows has become progressively lower and lower, increasing the pressure. The "mindset" of front rows has to change and this can only be done by coaching from an early age. Also, baggy shirts - This is not a stupid thing to say but it is almost impossible to get a proper bind on skin-tight modern rugby shirts!

@@ThePereubu1710 But, you know, the mindset is that they're professional players. The players getting bigger and scrums getting lower are for the same end: winning. They're paid for that. If they aren't better than the guy opposite them, sooner or later they'll find themselves out of contract. How or why would you coach that out of them?

@@andrasszabo1570 Are you trying to suggest that players in 1980 didn't want to win? I think many would dispute that :) There is no simple way to fix the scrum problem, and there is a problem but, firstly, I would suggest looking at what is right in the top-level woman's game where there are, generally, far fewer scrum resets. As far as coaching is concerned: 1.Concentrate on keeping height in the front row - props should be holding up the scrum, not trying to force their opponent to the ground. 2. Make lifting your opponent in the scrum an offence in the same way that standing up is. 3. Coach scrum halves to put the ball in straight thus causing a real competition for the ball in the scrum and penalise them when they don't 4. Coach hookers to hook rather than have to hold the scrum up which appears to be their primary role now. This would become a real issue if 3 is implemented. On the wider front, I would take every step to speed the game up, even if that includes shot-clocks and free-kicks for taking too long to set up a scrum/lineout. I would force a maximum of 2 scrum resets before some penalty - could be free-kick, could be a penalty or even a non-contested scrum (actually, I really like that one, can't see the Marler's or Genges of the world being happy with that!). I would also return to the days of injury only replacements, forwards will have to play the full 80 minutes. This will force them to be lighter and more aerobically fit . Those are just "top of the head" suggestions which I know will, probably, have as many downsides as upsides but I am not hearing this conversation at the moment and as a lover of rugby union, I want to hear some real changes

@@ThePereubu1710 There's definitely too many replacements in modern rugby. Having few forward replacements might help open up matches towards the end of games

@@ThePereubu1710 Yes, the shirts: so it means more hard contact than shirt grabbing tackles. Also, the players are bigger, sometimes much bigger, and when there's 8 subs, the big and not so mobile guys sit on the bench until the last half hour. Going a full 80 hardly happens for half the team. The amount of meters a scrum can move forward might change things, as in U-19.

It is rugby league in the last fifteen to twenty years, after real rucks went away and setting up defensive lines became the rule. I just watched an old tape I had from 1996, Campese's last match, and the forwards were all in on getting to the tackle and fighting for the ball. By RWC 2011 the game had changed to what it is today.

@@ldfreitas9437 I have an interesting aside about league vs union. When I started playing college rugby in the US in 93 you joined the USA Rugby Football Union. In the bylaws, that no one read, it stated that if you played league you could be banned from playing sanctioned union rugby in the US. I imagine that all changed in 95 when the professional aspects were adopted.

I started watching in the mid 70s and I think the changes in the scrum, like the changes in the ruck are all about player safety. Too many times scrums ended up with faces in the dirt or players on the back of the neck with people piling on top. It needed more structure to keep it safe as player weight and power increased.

@@tmdillon1969 It's amazing that it followed the pattern in Britain and France. Rugby League was set up in the UK as a professional alternative to Union so that players from lower income backgrounds could play and make a living, whilst Union stuck to the upper class notions of paid work being for the lower orders. In France, when the Nazis installed the Vichy Government in 1940, League was suppressed as having overly British and socialist links for the same reason. The French Rugby Union was a collaborating organisation as well!

@Jon Barnes I knew the part about league being pro first and working class as well. I heard it was centered in the north of England. I had no idea about the French situation. It's also odd that Germany sucks at rugby to me. Millions of people and a history of big, fast athletes right next to all the 6 Nations teams.

@shane Morrison I don't know if I agree with your coach. Yes, you want the platform to be stable, but you can achieve the stability after your scrum has put the defense on the back foot. We have a cadence that we use. We all push together or we don't push at all. When we're defensive we try to absorb then counterattack and I try to hook the ball when it's near enough.

@@R.J._Lewis thanks for your reply ,not that it matters but are you a front rower, I am have played hooker prop for 40 years,now I'm not saying your wrong but you ain't right either.Srum is an art pushing is not effective when not in unison that's why binding and flankers are important.ask any front rower who has put their head in a million scrums,rucks,mauls and tackles if I'm WRONG!!!

@shane Morrison yeah, I'm a hooker. I've propped before, but only in sevens. I don't like propping, to be perfectly honest.

We used to sort of lean back against the second row and then slam forward. Always a chance of a sly yosser, totally by accident of course.

The word “engage” being 2 syllables messes up the timing between the two teams as they will go against each other at different times after the referee says the word.

Maybe Bobby Windsor for Wales in the early 1970s?

Anyone can throw. It just the way it has evolved. Wingers used to as they could quickly move behind the maul. Hookers due to their being small had no purpose in the line out so could afford to throw then join the mail.

In some teams it was the only time a winger touched the ball, that's why I moved to the back row at school!

Agree. Same with someone saying they are 1.77m tall. No idea what that means!!

Except everyone under the age of 40 does. And plenty of us older than that do too. You're not the first person to extrapolate from their own experience and insist that it's universal.

Hahahaha. What's a stone? Is it a kind of rock?

That's just your own prejudice coming through...

@@douglasherron7534 ah yes, the boomer, the most oppressed of populations.

@@Spaxcore Not actually. But you are a victim - obviously.

I hope that is wrong, Rugby Union without the scrums is rugby league.

@@dennism5731 Agree, but I'd argue that today's scrums are no longer in the spirit of the game. It seems the entire goal is to draw a penalty rather than to compete for the ball. It's tedious.

Yes, yes, and yes. Scrums are pathetic. There could be ways to make them better, but that might have to mean bringing back some old laws of the game. First, no crooked feeds, and a penalty, not a free kick. Second, go back to four subs and they can be for injury or tactical. That would take care of huge mammoth sized players coming off the bench with 30 minutes left to play at prop.

@@ldfreitas9437 Good suggestions. Also introduce a maximum 5 seconds for the attacking team to get the ball back into play or a free kick goes to the defending team, make the scrum about restarting the game rather than trying to milk a penalty.

Agree with all of you. It's an absolute shambles. Without a scrum it's league, people say, but current scrums are not union either. Also the refs should be on the clock with a set time to restart a new scrum if one fails. Some are absolutely brutal with the pace they reset. You could make a cup of tea in the interval. Looking at you Raynal.

@@ldfreitas9437 I would stop tactical substitutions. Subs only for genuine injury.

@@grantmcinnes1176 Even without the scrum it still wouldn't be League but it would be much better. Either that or return to the old scrum.

Rubbish - you can see in 2023 clip that's not the case. The scrum-half spins the ball as it gets put in so it rolls back towards their side. Learned that at school in the '90s.

(Fewer scrums, not less). I don't think there is any evidence to support this claim. There is certainly more time spent in scrums, because of the slow build-up and the endless re-sets.

Just watch rugby league then. I think the scrum needs to return to what it was in the amateur days or be scrapped entirely. The scrum today is a joke and serves no purpose.

Must be a back talking here. Bet you love watching a brylcream boy taking a minute and a half to take a drink, place the ball on his wee plastic tee, through grass into the air, scratch his clackerbag, give weird looks at the posts, and then miss the kick.

@@dennism5731 I get that reference.

@@dennism5731 this ^

No, the ball is still supposed to be thrown straight. The scrum half can change his body angle, but not the angle of the throw (wut?) Law 19f. It is never enforced though, and it's pathetic.

These are all very good ideas.

Scrum penalties that are taken as points to the post should be 1 point only. Awarding 3 points for something “technical”, that the referee probably got wrong because he doesn’t know what is going on , is way to much considering , at the moment, they get the same points as out and out foul play.