Hello cult members. Here’s the timestamps: 00:00 Intro 01:09 Cultural Conditioning & the Westermarck Effect 08:57 Is Monogamy Beneficial for Men? 17:44 Future of the Sexual Marketplace 22:12 How Kinship Variables Impact Society 32:32 Data Sets on Moral Situations 38:51 The Main Impacts on Personality 45:48 Why Europe is so Dominant? 51:40 Would Society Return to Pan-Generational Communes? 58:57 Where to Find Dr Henrich
The male to female sex ratios in the UK is 1.05 male to every 1 female. That's in the age category of 15 to 44. Now there are approximately 27 million ppl in that age category. So that means that there are approximately 675,000 EXCESS males in the UK that that age category of 15-44. Not even SINGLE men but EXCESS men. What will its effects be?
@Christian Pruett researchers consistently fail to address the magnitude of this issue. People ultimately need love and validation. When a man doesn't matter to a woman, when she doesn't gaze at him with a loving smile, tell him she wants him/needs him, that he matters to her. A lot of guys have never had that. This will cause disillusionment/isolation/soul sadness and mental health issues in men. No amount of material things, por* will be able to replace that. The problem in the west is 2 fold. Incels can't get a woman and the ones that do get one, end up in divorce/breaking up or being cheated on and losing more than the lady. So they swear off relationships and end up lonely all the same. (Mgtow) Both have the effect of creating lonely, angry, atomised ppl and broken society with plummeting birth rates. And can spell the end of that society. What are we seeing in the west now? Falling sperm counts, falling testosterone levels, births, marriage, and a rapidly ageing society, with catastrophic debt levels. White ppl used to have close family bonds but now they no longer keep ties with family and send old ppl to homes. Jobs for life are a thing of the past, from where they used to form friends. White ppl lost their matchmaking culture and used to marry form within their own tried and tested social circle. With all that now gone, internet dating and cold approaching/PUA random women that u know nothing about is the way. Which can be toxic.
15:00 I can only speak for myself but when a career distracted me from finding a husband to have children and I found myself in my 40s with neither, I didn't lower my standard, I just took myself out of the market. Being single sucks, but being with someone you're not totally into or compatible with(or vice versa) is worse.
I happened onto this channel sheerly by accident. I started listening to Dr. Joe and after 3 minutes, I could not stop listening ! What a brilliant and fascinating man! And Chris did an amazing job of interviewing him ! This is one of the most riveting videos I have ever seen and the hour flew by.
Love your questions Chris! Do they come to you as you're listening? Do you have some prepared ahead of time, seems like his book leads to some of your questions?
@@Cheximus I respect him for it. He has no obligation to answer every or any question posited in the comments section. It’s a comments section, not a question section.
To this day other manosphere content creators have always brought up scientific data and statistics but never an actual professor of human evolutionary biology. Great. I'm replaying this every now and then to keep the info engrained in my conscious.
18:44 *Hikikomori* (Japanese: ひきこもり or 引きこもり, lit. "pulling inward, being confined"), also known as acute social withdrawal is total withdrawal from society and seeking extreme degrees of social isolation and confinement. _Hikikomori_ refers to both the phenomenon in general and the recluses themselves. _Hikikomori_ have been described as loners or "modern-day hermits" *Herbivore men* or *grass-eater men* (草食(系)男子, Sōshoku(-kei) danshi) is a term used in Japan to describe young men who express little interest in getting married or being assertive in relationships with women. (Source: _Wikipedia_- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men).
The trustworthiness thing, and the decline in our trustworthiness. You've said this before Chris, don't practice what you don't want to become. It's opposite clearly is also true, if you don't practice what you want to become (even through lack of opportunity to do so like in this example) then you will not become it.
Thank you for the part about overconfidence of societies, that goes with bigger acceptance for failure, that encourages people to invent and test new things, solutions, that finnaly brings change. Also part about shame and guilt was interesting, as it impacts the way we behave.
As a single female who's almost 40. I find these concepts extremely thought provoking. I'm independent, home owner, work full time, etc... I long for a partner, but know I can manage on my own. I've always felt instinctively that we're not monogamous by nature. I struggle with this concept, because like most women, I want my partner to love only me and be loyal to only me. However, we see so many problems with married, or highly committed partners struggling with staying faithful to just one person (men & women alike) and this ultimately destroys so many relationships. If we could somehow disconnect the engendered emotions that we've all been taught to feel about monogamous relationships being the gold standard, would we then be a happier more fulfilled society with less mental health issues as a whole? So interesting.. great podcasts 👏
Our brains have different, competing parts, and this separates us from other primates. You have a higher reasoning function - which is the bit you call 'you', which likes to be in charge. Being in charge has some real value - it means that your reasoning faculties can override your instincts. So men have an instinct to have sex with lots of different partners, but our higher reasoning understands that this makes us susceptible to disease. The downside to this is that happiness is a bit of feedback that evolution provides to us for 'doing the right thing' by its standards. So using our higher reasoning to override our instincts is unlikely to make us happy. There's no answer to the question of how you reconcile your ego and superego. But it is often helpful to understand what the parts are, and where the motivations come from. It can, for example, allow you to get really pissed off if your partner is unfaithful to you, but also allow you to forgive them, since you won't take it personally. And if I could offer some advice. If you live an excessively risk-averse life, trying to avoid the suffering and joy that come with being in a relationship, you won't live a full life, and you will regret it.
What if marriages had an *expiration date* (perhaps 10 years)? If spouses wanted to stay married, they could renew it. Or they could see that expiration date arriving, plan for it, enjoy their remaining time together, and ultimately release each other to see other people again. (I don't necessarily agree with this idea, I'm just playing devil's advocate, exploring the idea for conversation.)
Stop worrying about yourself, be devoted to someone and hopefully to your children if it's not too late. Do what's best for them in all cases, that means monogamy, devotion, trust and mutual dependency.
The dating game is an updated version of the same game that humans have always been playing: survival of the fittest. We are not dying of famine/plagues/war etc the way we used to, but birth rates are dropping like crazy because it's too expensive to have children. Only the top tier of men can afford to have children, and only a small percentage of young women choose motherhood over a career path. Only those select few are having (multiple, healthy) children to produce further generations. Brutal reality, but life has always been brutal in one form or another. I wish all of you good health and mental fortitude. Greetings from a degenerate NYC my friends
(I posted this again bc it's relevant to this episode. The last time I posted this, it started a thread with interesting input so I'm open to more discussion about it)
Pre-US occupation Afghanistan had 9 children per women. Niger women currently have 6 children each on average. The issue isn’t affordability. When countries become more comfortable, gender equality is reached and women have access to the pill, they will invariably choose to have less children. Countries such as Scandinavian ones which have the best social and financial support systems for mothers still have birth rates under the replacement rate of 2.1
Actually I think society is indoctrinating women to think that a high end career with satisfy all aspects of their life, but intact most economically high achieving women hit an existential point around the age of 30 where they see the futility of dissatisfaction of a high end career that takes up the majority of their time and leaves no time for relationships or children. In this existential crisis they often start looking to find a partner to start a family with and are often disappointed by their reproductive system's inability to come to the party that late in life, causing a decline in birthrates and a rise in depressed 40 yo women. We need to start to teach women about the beauty and life long reward and satisfaction of motherhood again.
A Chinese woman wrote an interesting article pointing out that the feminized men who look like Korean K-pop singers and actors, wearing make-up and so on, are not at all models for men, as the Chinese government suggests: their fans are all women, who find this attractive. It would be interesting to have an evolutionary biologist's explanation of this illogical-seeming phenomenon.
The thing men believe that if they do/act like these feminine k pop stars that they will get girls, but in reality the girls just like the k pop star's talent/status/fame/wealth, not their actual appearance from a dating perspective.
@@CommandoMaster That sounds plausible, but what is your evidence that men believe acting like this will get them girls? I know there has been a big explosion in male beauty products, plastic surgery etc. in South Korea, but it seems to me that this is not really directed at women. Women dress up and wear make-up and so on for other women, to compete among themselves. Men don't care what kind of shoes women are wearing, for instance, whereas for women it is life or death. So are these Korean men competing with each other in the way men will compete by wearing more expensive watches for instance? I just don't see the 'dating perspective' being so important in China, which is still very traditional, so that the only 'dating' most girls can imagine is an arrangement likely to lead to marriage.
@@CommandoMaster >>but in reality the girls just like the k pop star's talent/status/fame/wealth, not their actual appearance from a dating perspective
Mind you during the earthquake in California during the 80's - you saw a real increase of community support where people were helping strangers - Community became stronger after a disaster.... People want to be in Community but our system has changed to remove these Communities from growing organically.... I believe there are systems that are in place through policy or even technical, technological which hinders communities to gather and organize in a beautiful caring community.
Watch the scene early in "Rebel Without a Cause" where James Dean - the new boy at the school - inadvertently steps on the school emblem (embedded on the walkway) on his first day, and how the other students remonstrate him! Could that happen today?
@Chris Williamson This Dr Heinrich guy is really interesting. A fresh perspective and new studies on social anthropology and psychology. He made a lot of points that I’ve considered before but never been able to verbalise and is very distinct from the mainstream evolutionary psychology community which seems to focus only on the last 500 years of Western society. Great conversation. Would love to see him back at some point.
Thank you @ChrisWillx and Dr Henrich for hosting such an enlightening episode. 🙏I'm curious to know why some women try to rescue men with emotional immaturity, low social status, antisocial behaviour and financial instability (co-dependency), as it's clearly not in favour of their survival instincts to continue their offspring with healthy superior genetics, while from a nervous system point of view I understand it's repetition compulsion. I'd be interested in your exploring this topic in future episodes (unless you've already covered it, which I've missed). You continue to inspire me with new insights. Keep up the good work! Way to go!
Super interesting and so many lessons to derive from this. Government's should take some notes before trying to copy certain ways of life into a population that works completely differently.
This episode is the shizz. Very interesting. I almost choked when he spoke about a monopoly game never turning into sex. Also, at 21:40 thank you for your empathy here Chris. I often wonder what advice fathers would / should give their daughters... because you may want them to succeed, do well, use all their faculties/ gifts, etc... but this could also mean they may never be happy in a loving relationship and find someone to start a family with.
I do think the pressure on women to "meet" someone and settle down is still there though, or at least it was when I was young. I guess it is up to the individual woman to decide what is most important for her. It's also a question of character. I believe most women are happier to be married and have children but by no means all. Also, we should not forget that when women are younger and more relationship-prone often the guys they meet in their environment who are on their level are not ready to commit and just want to play the field. I think the problem is with both sexes and the cultural and social changes that are affecting society at large. I could have definitely used an understanding of evolutionary biology when I was younger though. I think the best use for its insights is not so much to admit defeat and resign ourselves to be shackled to our drives and lead a predetermined existence, but rather to use those insights to understand how to live a healthy life and decide where it might be useful for our happiness to consciously overcome some of those drives.
Isaiah 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. With 30% of men 18-30 being sexless and that number expected to rise to 50% i wouldn't be surprised to see a mass movement of "players leaving the server" leaving significantly fewer male players in the game.
@@astraea9644 Yes. That was my experience in university. The guys and many of the girls were partying and sleeping with as many as they could. That is why I stopped dating and just focused on obtaining a degree. That was easy for me and there is never any guarantee that we will get married. So yes, I could have decided not to go to college and work at starbucks for the rest of my life, but I didn't want to be penniless. Luckily I did find someone who shared my values, but we were both in our thirties when we met at a work function.
@@prettyboyjeremy why would they bother? Success is socialized and failure is privatized. If this hail Mary pays off they still end up feeding the same state that earlier spat in their faces.
What boggles my mind is how society has been collectively instilled with the notion that all traditions of behaviour and culture surrounding marriage and monogamy is based upon archaic and unenlightened norms, which progressivism and wokeness have begun to throw out. This idea that our ancestors were foolish and ignorant. Whereas, actually, it's turning out again (I say again because progressivism and wokeness have come around before several times; always before collapsing a society) that these principles of attitude are key to a cohesive, well administered society. Ironically it goes to show how ignorant - and in fact arrogant - our society is, and how poorly educated it is, on the impact of progressivism and wokeism as well as it's gradual triggers over time: how do you spot communism arising, and how do you spot wokeism arising, etc. and why is it bad for society, and how do we stop it, etc. etc. Hopefully, with our interconnected society, the destabilising effects will be minimal, and we'll be able to record for future generations this issue occurring (and hopefully, how it was solved). Whether it's religiously driven, or not, we (the West) needs return to monogamy, gender roles (with a contemporary lifestyle, and first + second wave Feminism - which I would call actual Feminism, not Progressivism - 3rd wave - and Wokeism - 4th wave), where hypergamy operates across, i.e. with the end of social media dating and real societal shunning of polygamy/polyamory, forcing people to have fewer options and therefore more personal growth - or another solution? Otherwise, we'll see society continue to tumble on down.
Great write up. Wonder why analyses like these are put aside. My guess is that it has to do with comparing things with their ideal in mind not with progress made in the real world. Their argument could be then. This maybe got us from 20% to 60% equality but why not neglect that and focus of 99% equality.
>>with the notion that all traditions of behaviour and culture surrounding marriage and monogamy is based upon archaic and unenlightened norms, which progressivism and wokeness have begun to throw out
I have a question reference the guilt and shame portion. It seems obvious to me that these are required within a society, something needs to exist which causes the feeling of regret and disappointment in one's self when you don't live up to either the expectations of yourself or others as a drive for self improvement. This can also become pathological in the sense of guilt and can be manipulated when it comes to shame, but leaving that aside. Is one strategy better for certain people than the other, or should we attempt a balance? One of Jordan Peterson's rules is "Treat yourself like you're someone you are responsible for looking after". People have a very hard time with this when they already lack self esteem (hence the need for the reframe). And those people generally look to others to validate their self worth, so it seems that shame would be a more powerful motivator, than a hug a telling them "your putting these expectations on yourself, we love you either way", because they will still not care about themselves enough for the guilt to stop them, but that guilt will still be there eating them up. On the other hand applying shame to a person who wouldn't respond to it because they think they know better and have created (consciously or not) their own standards, will only serve to push them away and rebel from the communal standards. Is there a middle ground? It seems to me moving between shame and positive affirmations would be confusing.
I've been hearing about hypergamy for many many years now. However, as a woman, I find it to be not true in my case. I have dated poor men, and rejected rich men. My understanding is that the qualities I find attractive in men - hard work, principled ness, honesty, are also the qualities that lead to success. From my perspective it's a basic necessity to have these qualities in a mate, because such men end up taking good care of you when you're pregnant, birthing and are basically incapacitated at that time. But society labels that as hypergamy. But in my head, I say it's 101!
Yesss! I usually don’t comment, video was great by the way but Siri should totally be able to listen and respond to good manners she always ignores my ‘please and thank yous’! I never thought too much about this!!! My partner always says you dont need to say that but I just cant help it, its just how I speak, I then have to repeat without being polite and she does what I need! She listens to “hey siri shut up” over “hey siri can you please turn the music off” thanks for sharing
Hikikimori is the Japanese term for these guys. Also, I'm not Catholic and have plenty of criticism for the Church BUT more kids are sexually abused in public schools than in the Church so not sure why that isn't the running joke when it comes to this type of abuse...check out the stats, gang. It is vile.
@@Macheako and they want people to pull their children out of institutions that indoctrinate morals into young kids, the benefit of immoral adults is that they’re as easy to manipulate as children
"BUT more kids are sexually abused in public schools than in the Church so not sure why that isn't the running joke" - that's because public schools are seen as a matriarchal domain while the Church is still considered a patriarchal domain despite the cultural dilution it has suffered in recent decades. If you haven't noticed, showing less favorable facts about women is something that's discouraged in society for a variety of reasons which i won't go in detail about. Safe to say it's related to how society values the two sexes.
Not sure where I am in the social hierarchy (software engineer) but I like skills regardless of prestige/pay/degree. Someone who has mastered something cool will win over a C-suite suit anyday.
. I am an attractive young bisexual woman (23) who has been in multiple triads/ polygamous dynamics. Despite loving and adoring my partners, trust always collapsed and the prisms weren’t as stable as you’d think. Not good for kids. The man envied the closeness I shared with my women and my women envied the attention he gave me. It worked for a decent while before bringing out the worst in us.
Diamond, Gladwell and Braudel wrote about the cultural effects of wheat vs rice. How economy and technology (and literacy) shape culture has long commanded the attention and imagination of the social sciences. I always appreciate the calm consideration evolutionary biologists give to the quandaries of human sexuality. I find them the least likely to have tunnel vision from one ideology or another. "Post-industrial revolution but pre-" the last *50* years, at least. And that's holding to a pretty simplistic view of western industrial society from an American (mostly post-war boom) perspective. Really, the 1960s weren't the first sexual revolution in the USA, the 1920s were. The discussion of the differences between British and American culture echo strongly in Bill Bruford's reflection of his visits here in his autobiography.
He talks about Europe in 1000 C.E being backwards... he does not mention the Greeks or Romans 1000 years prior being innovators. Weather patterns had a huge influence in the onset of the dark ages in Europe. Farms were not able to produce due to long winters, which lead to malnutrition, disease and war.
Yeah, we hit a high society point with Greece and Rome, then dropped off, along with the climate. Then we had the Medieval warming period which kicked things off again, booming population and growth, until the Mongols and plague hit :p
Yea and monogomy is only when there is unstability and less about love for the women. But in a normal healthy enviroment or society people that is not desperate for resources will have normal maiting patterns are more likely to be about love.
@@GuidetteExpert it could just be your wording, so sorry if i misunderstand you but monogamy is the normal maiting pattern for humans, across the board. This has only changed recently, mostly just in the West. Even then most relationships are monogamous, just not with long term commitment
Yeah the Greeks and the Romans weren’t French or British or Spanish, which were the groups that Toledo was referring to. Even the Romans referred to the Germanic people as Barbarians. Remember Baghdad was once the capital of the world, the centre of economic commerce and trade. Now it is a backwater. Simply the point made is that the institutions that effectively extract talent out of their population and allocate it efficiently are the successful ones. The European ‘barbarians’ as Toledo called it had just not done that at that point. The fact that Northern Europe could be considered barbarians at one point and now are at the frontier of technology is evidence of the necessity of institutions.
researchers consistently fail to address the magnitude of this issue. People ultimately need love and validation. When a man doesn't matter to a woman, when she doesn't gaze at him with a loving smile, tell him she wants him/needs him, that he matters to her. A lot of guys have never had that. This will cause disillusionment/isolation/soul sadness and mental health issues in men. No amount of material things, por* will be able to replace that. The problem in the west is 2 fold. Incels can't get a woman and the ones that do get one, end up in divorce/breaking up or being cheated on and losing more than the lady. So they swear off relationships and end up lonely all the same. (Mgtow) Both have the effect of creating lonely, angry, atomised ppl and broken society with plummeting birth rates. And can spell the end of that society. What are we seeing in the west now? Falling sperm counts, falling testosterone levels, births, marriage, and a rapidly ageing society, with catastrophic debt levels. White ppl used to have close family bonds but now they no longer keep ties with family and send old ppl to homes. Jobs for life are a thing of the past, from where they used to form friends. White ppl lost their matchmaking culture and used to marry form within their own tried and tested social circle. With all that now gone, internet dating and cold approaching/PUA random women that u know nothing about is the way. Which can be toxic.
Poly will end in slavery. In a poly system low status men will have zero reason to continue working menial labor and sanitation jobs but the system will still abjectly depend on their labor. So slavery.
Maybe the guys who are being referred to as "low status" are actually higher than they think. In fact, is there a definition? Also, what if there could be a way for them to meet women who have realistic expectations? I think there are a lot of decent men and women who are not on dating apps. How do they find one another? Is there a way to form a network? Men are still needed and women are still needed. It makes me sad to think there are men and women who genuinely want a family and people just brand them "low status."
Maybe we choose to add value instead of doomsday attitude. I think we find to many excuses and "science" to back low value, men watching porn and gaming 24 hours a day are a big factor in low value
This is one of the most interesting episodes! . I live in Saudi Arabia in a very kinship intense society ( I think here no one would testify against there friends ). The society is also oedipal. I was sponsored by a very good company and had to change my location and my father considered this a betrayal.
@@BiZii1024 I still need and want my husband even though I have a pretty good income. My job is a job and my husband is a human being and my partner for life. He's more important than my job, but I am helping him because it's very hard to survive on one income. My brother's wife will not work. They do not have children and yet she stays at home. He has a very physical job and has an autoimmune disease and still she does not work even part time to help him. Unfortunately, she felt that working as a receptionist in a law firm was too stressful. SMH.
This only applied if societys are in desperate need of survival and there are few men that have the right recourses to survive in the environment. But when normal people marry for love like today where resources are pretty equaly distributed. And ofc good enough to create and sustain a family.
Rollo would cover two subjects in 1 hour. I’m a fan of Rollo but he constantly goes off on a tangent and repeats the same talking points over and over. It’s more monologue than discussion
34y.o. male, had my first kid last summer. Now I have moobs, more patience, and I tear up when children get hurt or are simply in danger when watching movies. Can absolutely confirm a major shift inside or drop in testosterone. Physical strength seems fine tho, weirdly enough
@Chris, I also wanted to contribute and recommend that you read this book called: The Better Angels Of Our Nature by Steven Pinker, and he makes a really good point about etiquette practices which reduces violence but also promotes economic productivity. The point you made about linguists finding out that modern children language development may be affected by the likes of technology like Siri is connected to this point. As etiquette, especially in western cultures like England is a integral part of what made Western societies jump ahead and with the current explosion of social media and everything that we are not yet equip to handle has to some extent ruined this process of practice etiquette. So therefore, I argue that this called explain the feeling of ‘social degeneracy’ as practiced etiquette made us more mindful, conscientious and would have made a lot of people become good at the practice of delayed gratification. Etiquette practices has shown infact to strengthen the regions of the brain that in control of self control. So just a food of thought lol.
I'm so glad it's acknowledged that we can't just forfeit gender equality because of the instability of the dating market. The points made are indeed facts, but balanced by the assertion that this is a problem that needs a modern, novel solution. The evolutionary biology argument often comes off like a dog whistle for asserting traditional gender stereotypes, and I really like how that was subverted in this episode.
For the sexless men, when you aren’t even in the game, you can’t honestly feel bad for someone taking multiple wives. That said, closed societies that artificially restrict young mens’ access to women appear to reliably end in instability and corruption.
They feel bad for not being chosen, but they also feel a sense of affinity and understanding regarding the man that accepts the attention of multiple women. So long as he isn't a dick about it, it's rare that I see ire in the red pill/incel space directed at "Chad".
@@torachan23 And why should those undesirable men not feel bad about it? They should feel bad, they should be envious. Because those feelings are what allow that low status man to bash the high status mans head in and take his place. All you're saying is that the low status man should be happy anyways and content with slaving away alone so that the high status man and his harem can have a good life. If society allows for polygyny then men should behave like lions and kill the high status men and their children. Because that's what society shows is the only way to success.
It dawned on me.. the dating scene with women reminds me of a science study I did in H.S. There was evidence that over killing the wolves lead to the starvation of deer. They would eat quicker than the vegetation could regrow. In this case without the previous restrictions; "modern woman" price themselves out of the market.
25:00 is this more innovation per captia or just in a county? Because if its. It per captia, its faulty. Yes of course we would have more innovation in a county with a million residents versus a rural county that might have only 20,000
"Hikkokomori" are shut in men in Japan: they're out of the dating market AND society. "Herbivore men" in Japan are non-macho guys, usually non dating but still in society. (Japan) D.A., J.D., (writer / atty) NYC and Tokyo
