Exalted Angels and Subordinationist Christology

Early Christian History with Michael Bird

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This episode of Nazareth to Nicaea examines Philippians 2:6-11 and examines whether the exaltation of Jesus in vv. 9-11 is indicative of the exaltation of angels in Jewish literature and whether a subordinationist christology is implied.
We cover
Introduction (00:10)
Comparative historical vs. theological interpretation (7:30)
Subordination in Phil 2:9-11 (22:27)
God-language for angels (26:27)
Conclusion (30:36)
Future episodes (32:17)
Otherwise, keep up with me on:
Twitter: @mbird12
Blog: michaelfbird.substack.com
Intro track by Ben Clements
#Jesus #Christology #Christ

Опубликовано:

16 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 24

@jollythoughts Год назад

Truly enjoying & appreciating this journey!

@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 Год назад

Thanks Marc.

@notanemoprog Год назад

Thanks, very interesting & very helpful!

@lucasdegregorio Год назад

Hi Dr. Michael Bird I love your content and it helped me with a lot of questions I had regarding Christianity Thank you for dedicating your time to spreading academic issues among a lay people I would like to know which portion of the academy understands an angelic Christology in Paul Is it the majority or a minority of scholars?

@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 11 месяцев назад

It depends what type of angel Christology? The angelic reading of Phil 2.6-11 is held by a minority of scholars.

@pistisproductions77 Год назад

You should interview David Burnett, if possible. Now, if you intend to follow the angel Christology discussion then I'd recommend Charles Gieschen, would love to see his take on the Philipians poem.

@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 Год назад

Clint is an amazing scholar with some good books. I'll definitely get him on one day!

@augustinian2018 Год назад

@@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 I’d definitely like to second the call for an interview or interaction of some sort with Charles Gieschen on Angelomorphic Christology, if it would be applicable-I’m not sure if his work actually deals with Pauline literature or not, though (he gave a series of lectures on his research some years ago at a theology summer camp of sorts for high schoolers I attended, so the level of detail was understandably restrained and I don’t remember if it broached Pauline literature).

@tonalddrump1341 11 месяцев назад

Hello, dr. Bird I was recently reading Bart Ehrmam's blog and came across the thesis that Paul saw Christ as a pre-existing angel who was ultra-exalted after the Resurrection, but not as an eternal God. Is Ehrman's thinking the thinking of most academics? How many scholars defend the thesis that Paul saw Jesus as an angel, considering the Pauline corpus as a whole (not just the text of Philippians)? It is a majority?

@elanordeal2457 9 месяцев назад

To my knowledge, Ehrman’s view of Jesus as a divine angel is a minority view, and was one of the largest pushback points in his book “how Jesus became God”.

@elliotwalton6159 Год назад

I would love to hear you chat with Andrei Orlov (who is working on a commentary on 2 Enoch for Hermeneia). I also recently listened to a conversation with Dale Allison talking about the differences of reading the gospels as a historian vs a theologian which you touched upon here.

@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 Год назад

Elliot, hey, I'd love to chat to Andrei Orlov!

@elliotwalton6159 Год назад

@@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 I hope it happens. I'll keep watching the skies!

@kennethvaughan6719 Год назад

Hi Dr. Bird, Thanks for this. It covers a range of topics I have been interested in for a few years. I’ve done my best to read primary source Second Temple material, but I can’t tie the threads together like this. If you have time, can you recommend a short, scholarly reading list that covers the topics you addressed here? It would be great to have them highlighted and annotated in my library. This would include works of yours, which I haven’t read enough of.

@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 Год назад

Kenneth, there is my book, Jesus among the gods, or else, stuff by Bauckham and Hurtado.

@donrayjay Год назад

Who are the scholars who argue for a tick shaped kenosis or for angel Christology in this passage?

@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 Год назад

Jack Sanders, Emily Wasserman, and Bart Ehrman to name a few.

@donrayjay Год назад

@@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 thanks I appreciate this. I have located an interesting article on Phil 2 by Jack Sanders from JBL 1969. But I can’t find discussion of kenosis or angel Christology in Emma Wasserman’s work. Could you please direct me to a book or article you have in mind?

@BobMendelsohn Год назад

What? Melchizedek is most likely an angel? I preach on him so often, and the linkage to the ORDER of Melchizedek is the go-to by the author of Hebrews to show that Yeshua is a priest, and thus can be the Great High Priest. Without Melchizedek, Jesus could not be a priest at all. But what gives you a hint that he is an angel?

@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 Год назад

He's only an angel in the Qumran literature, not in the Old Testament.

@BobMendelsohn Год назад

@@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 Right, but you seemed (and I might have misheard you the two times you mention this) to say that you thought Melchizedek was an angel. And I don't think he was anything but a man.

@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 Год назад

@@BobMendelsohn Yeah, but in the DSS, Melchizedek is portrayed as some kind of priestly angelic figure. I'm not saying I believe it, I'm just saying what it says in 11QMelch.

@elliotwalton6159 Год назад

I'm 100+ pages into your very fine and highly recommended text, Jesus Among the Gods. I'm glad I had some familiarity with the subject before going in (Boyarin, Orlov and Schafer) because you need a score card to keep track of all the competing ideas. Your chapter summaries are an excellent to help organize the reader's thoughts after large inputs of information and I appreciated your review of (and engagement with) the major scholarly opinions. I will certainly watch this with great interest.

@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 Год назад

Thanks!