Expensive Cards Not Worth Their Price | Commander Clash Podcast 115 

I've been listening to this podcast for a little over a year and I'm finally convinced that Richard is just a huge troll in disguise.

Richard, bless his heart, is a good moderator, and then he goes full flatearther.

Cyclonic Rift also gets rid of tokens so its not a complete redeploy

Gotta disagree with Crim here 100% on Esper Sentinel. Even with 0 synergy, it’s 1 mana draw 2-3 minimum that they have to remove AND it taxes them. It’s probably one of the most efficient cards in the whole format, and an auto-include in every deck with white. It could be double that price and I’d at least understand.

I swear Richard is trying to trigger us with these absurd hot takes

Sylvan Library still has a place in green-based creature decks because, ironically, it doesn't depend on creatures. If all of your card draw spells need you to have a board (whether they be drawing cards based on number of creatures, power/toughness, attacking, etc), then your card advantage suite has the glaring weakness of being absolutley useless after a sweeper. I think that the lionshare of card advantage being creature-centric is fine. But, not diversifying can come to bite you.

Commander Clash Podcast drinking game: Take a shot every time Richard starts his sentence with 'like..' and ends it with 'right?'

On doubling season, I feel like counters and tokens often go pretty well together. Think Ghave. I run a monogreen tyranids/hydras deck with Old One Eye at the helm. The deck is mainly counters, with a few token cards sprinkled in (33 vs 7), but one of those is my commander. So I'm always at least getting an extra 5/5 for a card that is good enough in my deck on it's own. It won't be a hit in every deck, but it will in enough to be noteworthy

Seth to me always has the most rational justifications on cards.

Zaxara uses both sides of doubling season VIGOROUSLY

The funny thing for me is that Richard's core argument for why Cyclonic Rift is overrated amounts to "People don't know how to use this card optimally."

I think Sylvan Library is still a powerhouse. Cards that make more opening hands keepable are awesome. Sylvan does a better job at ensuring you hit those land drops than just about any other card in the game in the 2cmc range. Cards like Search for Ascanta and the rare 2 cmc draw 2 spell like Night's Whisper and Expressive Iteration are excellent cards that do a poor imitation.

Esper Sentinel and Force of negation are not expensive because of commander tho, it's cause of modern

I only have Cyclonic Rift in two decks, but every time I have played it, it was into someone's alpha strike and I won the game the next turn.

23:10 - you forgot about fungus decks! You definitely want Doubling Season specifically because it doubles the amount of saproling tokens you make as well as double the amount of 'spore' counters you generate :)

Also that cyclonic rift take was so horrible it caused me physical pain, i Couldn't imagine thinking cyclonic rift was bad.

I just took psychic damage listening to richard talk about cyc rift

I appreciate Richard bringing in some spicy takes here, even if I don't agree with the takes. It's bringing in a new perspective where I've just always thought those cards are objectively good, and helped me reevaluate them which I haven't really done since they were printed.

To answer the question about rad Black Wraths. Black Sun's Zenith. It becomes more and more common the longer the game goes on. I love it.

Mtg Goldfish should do a draft next season like they did on Game Nights where everyone gets to draft six of each card type that they get to use the next season and the other players can't use chosen picks.

The strongest argument against Jeweled Lotus is the "it will get killed" one IMO. Getting a 4-mana commander out on turn 1, or 5-mana one on turn 2, is so strong, and people will be so salty, that they will 100% run out that removal and be right to do so. And then you're down a card, the hand you kept on the basis of assuming the lotus play would work is probably crap now, and your commander costs 2 more. You're honestly probably just out of the game at that point.

it's kind of wild that ancient copper is 2.5x as expensive as the next dragon in that cycle

Sylvan doesn't just guarantee draw, it's also like a free brain storm every upkeep...

I had no opinion about it beforehand but all the arguments against Damnation were about different cards that cost twice as much and do different things, Richard and Tomer helped make the case for Damnation IMO. Even busted, three times as expensive cards like the meathook massacre, people are too distracted by the upside and not the cost. 4 mana wrath is still good.

The only deck I've had Doubling Season in is my Slimefoot deck, where it REALLY wants both sides - it's a Thallid deck, so doubling the number of spore counters you get is really big for the deck. It effectively quadruples your saproling generation. Edit - just saying to give another example of a deck that uses both sides. I think that it's very likely that Doubling Season is very overplayed and isn't worth it for many decks.

Never loved Cyclonic Rift more than I do now with all these Treasure/Food/Clue synergies everywhere - you aint re-casting your 20 treasure back out. Other than that Richard was spot on with all the other cards

Black Sun Zenith is pretty good, plus gets rid of indestructible.

Rift is really really really strong, especially if your running decent interaction, or looping it. On mtgo I used to play it in my morph deck but it was way too strong.

I really like this podcast. Always makes me happy to hear expert's takes on certain cards. In this episode Tomer is just jumping over Ghave as a commander who's so severely profiting from Doubling season that it just ends games.

Doubling season is worth the price - so worth it, I bought one as I listened to this show - I didn’t realise it had dived in price. Thanks!

I own all of the older cards on this list. As someone who bought all these cards long before they became so pricey, I've just always played with these cards, and if a deck would want one of these, it feels unfinished to me without these. Recently though I've actually replaced all of them with proxies. I haven't sold them, but I either leave them at home or in a case near my decks and use the proxies as true proxy. I'm just getting to the point I'd rather not walk around with thousands in my commander bag, and I personally have no issue with other players playing them without owning them, so what better way. Doubling Season does all types of counters, most other counter-adding cards outside of proliferate only do +1/+1 counters. Which gives it a 3rd home in some janky non +1/+1 counter decks as well. In my personal play experience March of Swirling mists has performed better than Cyclonic Rift. Although they are not the same cards at all, they can react to very similar situations by temporarily dealing with a problem board (depending on cast time, March actually denies those cards longer) and March is much more versatile. I do tend to still play both as the Rift doesn't target and it's still a strong way to deal with the board, probably my #2 blue card. I would argue that Wheel is very strong if played properly (unfairly) and bad catch-up draw if played inappropriately or at an inopportune time, and IMO every time I have played Wheel of Misfortune it has been a trap card that is not worth playing at all. Thanks for the fun topic.

the idea behind the doubling season is not that you need to use both sides in a single deck. It is that you can also just transplant it into two different decks as well.

I’m usually on board for richard’s hot takes, but boy oh boy his cyc rift take is wild. I wouldn’t spend money on cyc rift, but it’s because it’s too strong and not fun to play against, not too weak

Doubling season is also WAY more flexible in your collection, not just for a single deck. If you build superfriends, doubling season, if you build +1/+1 counters, doubling season, if you build tokens, doubling season, even if you get experience counters, doubling season. Literally half my green decks could justify it, even though I only have 1 copy and play it in 1 deck.

I play Sylvan Library in my Atraxa deck and to me just the fact that I can choose which out of 3 cards I get to pick every draw step is insane. Most of the time I don't even pay life (unless I really need to dig for an answer or a land, or if I'm already full of mana and/or life) is it just me that thinks that "at your upkeep look at the top 3 cards and draw one of those" is actually really good (and worth the price)?

Sylvan is definitely worth it at $20, you don’t absolutely need it but it does improve any deck it’s a part of

Esper sentinel goes hard. It is a great card for mono white decks. I've pulled several play sets. It's very useful.

Ghave and Doubling Season literally go hand in hand.

It may seem weird that the overpriced tutor mentioned is cheaper than other ones mentioned but I actually agree 100% with Seth where saving for a demonic tutor or Vampiric Tutor Is worth it, or just go budget, the in between Grim Tutor just doesn’t seem remotely worth its price at all

There is a glaring downside to doubling season.. you spend 5 mana, and (usually) do NOTHING to the board the turn it comes out.. the higher the power level of your game/playgroup is, the WORSE doubling season becomes. "Yes, I'd like to spend 5 mana, put a scary permanent into play that effectively does nothing the turn it comes in, and pass my turn" Is playing doubling season fun? Sure.. is it worth the price? NO

Richard, a master-mind beyond comprehension of ordinary mages. I love you dude

I think Beseech the Queen is a pretty good black tutor, especially if you play a Yuriko deck or a Vampire deck with Twilight Prophet. But also very good simply for monoblack decks.

I think Doubling Season at $40 is worth, and at $80 it was not.

6:45 mana confluence, city of brass, orchards, command tower, gemstone, ancient tomb, 2 channel lands, fetches, and og duals and like 1 or 2 flex slots for cavern/another mana accelerator land is a 5 color cedh deck 28 lands usually skipping a dual (plateu) or two that is under valued mana pip wise. I dont imagine post malone casual would look much different other than a basic of each of the main colors so you hit land drops and a possible second typal land, since most decks are 5 colors to utilise a wide variety of creature typals, planeswalkers, or legendaries.

I use Doubling Season in my Glissa Herald of Predation deck who makes 2 incubate tokens which comes out with 2 +1/+1 counters so with doubling season it’s 4 tokens with 4 +1/+1 counters which is nice.

i'm surprised tomer didnt mention nightmare unmaking for a mono black wrath as its very budget and it exiles so it gets around indestructible

So a fun thing I’ve been doing is in my Phylath, World Sculptor landfall deck uses doubling season as a core piece to a win. I’ve got doubling season with avenger of zendikar and all will be one, make way too many tokens, put an insane number of counters on them, then watch nature eat the table if the burn doesn’t end it all. 27:39

I like that some cards are "money-banned". There are quite a few powerful cards that would just be in every deck if they weren't so expensive so in pods that don't use that many proxies they are just not there which I think is actually nice

Other black board wipes on the more expensive side that I like are Nightmare Unmaking, Deadly Tempest, Life's Finale, and even Necromantic Selection

I agree with Tomer, Doubling Season is only really good when you're using both halves. Either half has dupes that are more mana efficient and/or are cheaper.

For mono-black board wipes, Living Death should also be counted! It can potentially reanimate your opponents graveyard, but in any deck that runs I make sure to also run a couple of graveyard hate cards!

I totally agree that Doubling Season is overrated especially in +1/+1 counters decks, cause most of those decks don't place a bunch of counters all at once they place 1 on each of their creatures multiple times. So hardened scales is just doubling season but 4 less mana and there are a bunch of creatures with the hardened scales effect

Jeweled Lotus take: I have Jeweled Lotus (I opened one) in my Sheoldred, the Apocalypse deck. There’s something wonderful about getting my commander out turn 1, and I’m *already* the archenemy because everyone hates Sheoldred.

I have ALL 10 duals (revised) in my Tiamat deck. I had 7 of them from when i played in high school, bought the other 3 just to have one of each. 😊

To the doubling season topic: Ghave, guru of spores... outside of planeswalkers that's really the only commander that comes to mind that breaks more than 1 part of its effects very easily, and at one time

Sorry Crim, i watch many commander shows on youtube besides you guys. Most of the time no one pays for esper sentinel, at any point in the game. And it skews the game so hard because no wants to use removal on a 1/1.

Damnation is really cool. I'm glad I got four secret lair version with Seb McKinnon's art.

This is why my playgroup only uses proxies these days. Entire decks costs about 20US$. Just like Garfield intended.

Oldie but a goodie. Primal Vigor came in the Prossh pre built, but immediately got moved to my Marath. Found Doubling Season and it was a slam dunk.

Great Henge does not need to be over $25, ever

Imperial seal is good for decks that cares about cards at the top of the deck more than the hand. Jodah the unifier for example. Is it worth it? Ehhh

I'd say just about any card is not worth $20+ if you're looking to get it so you can play casually. If you're looking to collect or play competitively then the value of any card can change wildly... I bought a damnation at I think $17~ and thought it was overpriced but it's also just my favorite card? so idk lol definitely depends But yeah casual commander people should almost never be spending that kind of money unless you're really happy with dumping money into the hobby to enhance whatever fun you're having. Some people love blinged decks or really love certain cards or really want specific combos or whatever and don't wanna run proxies. /Shrug but I'd say reasonably speaking $20+ is really too much across the board for a general baseline of fun commander games (Tomer has shown you can make decks wayyyyyyyyy cheap that are pretty awesome) EDIT: btw you can buy damnation for $15 and under now if you're lookin carefully. (at the time of me posting this there's multiple listings on TCGplayer 15 and under

Timeless Lotus is played in some versions of amulet in modern. Probably helps beef up the cost.

I know I'm about 7 months late, but I will argue that Grismold the Dreadsower makes great use of both sides of doubling season. The number of tokens that Grismold creates are doubled, and then the +1/+1 counters from any creature token on the field dying that go on Grismold are also doubled.

When it comes to Seth’s Grim Tutor point, I fully agree. I’m not gonna go out and buy one, I’ll replace it with something like Phyrexian Arena or Underworld Connections if I’m not getting another tutor. It’s in that awkward price range where I’m either putting in good tutors or spending the money somewhere more impactful.

Something not touched on about the duals - in 3-4c decks, it’s common enough that you’ll want 2 untapped fetchable lands that are the same colors untapped. If you play any particular deck enough you’ll know which 2 colors . Triomes are nice, but frequently not good enough.

It would have been more informative to say how much each of you WOULD pay for each card, and then do an average.

Richard is on the right track about Jeweled Lotus and its typical play pattern. I was of the belief that it was too strong for casual, but after seeing s bunch of Lotus games I realized that the card disadvantage in exchange for mana was not being capitalized on. People were just running their card out there and getting punished for looking scary. However, having experienced the further cEDH-ification of casual, people are actually now flattening their mana curves and going for explosive plays off of this. It doesn't even need to win you the game on the spot in casual. If you can get your commander down early and use it's synergies same turn to get some value, maybe snipe an opposing threat at the same time, you're suddenly so far ahead. Fast mana generally is rubber-banding in casual where it went from scary, to bad, to actually effective and a few of my playgroups are contending with the extra oomph it gives commander-centric decks.

For Doubling Season, I'd like to use it for Ayula, since she uses both halves. Her own effect will get more 1/1 counters. Bearscape and Ayula's Influence will both benefit from the second half. Esper Sentinel is a card that I'm keen to pick up for my Zabaz Modular deck. If the day ever comes where both are $10-15 then I'll probably pick them up.

As or doubling season, not only is is good for planeswalkers, it's also great for an artifact deck with the right things. Many, MANY artifacts have unique counters that can ONLY be amplified with this to great effect, not to mention running in the same deck some of the vanishing enchantments to nuke more of the board, do more things, etc before saccing them. When it comes to timeless lotus, you have to think about the manabase to NOT use it. To consistently get 1 of each by turn 4-6, depending on rocks, etc, you have to spend far more than $13 when this card just kinda does it. It is value in itself in that way, as well as ignoring getting screwed out of one color by a land nuke or just not drawing one color.

Esper Sentinel is the single best white card I've ever bought and it was worth every penny.

I got my Doubling Season for 28€ when WOE was released. I think in a Dragon tribal playing Sarkhan Unbroken it does really good work. You can tutor for all of your dragons and put them onto the battlefield the same turn you play Sarkhan. Especially if your commander is Miirym, Doubling Season is a great card. You can also double all your treasures from Ancient Copper Dragon, Old Gnawbone, Ganax, Rapacious Dragon or Dockside, which is a great pay-off for the relatively high cmc of Doubling Season. Also, in green it is relatively easy to get to the five mana you need to cast it.

I'm with Tomer on Doubling Season. For 40+ dollars, I want that card to be the best card in my deck, and I think Doubling Season is only that if you're a super friends deck.

I've won or swung a game with Cyclonic Rift, more than it's whiffed.

Hey goldfish crew, an idea I would love to see for an episode of the podcast is a draft like the one on game nights but the pool is the top 20 most played cards from the previous season. Each player for the next season can only play the five of the 20 they drafted for the next season. This accomplishes a big goal you have stated in the past. It avoids the same cards showing up over and over across a season. It helps you not have to make bans like cyclonic rift because it kept popping up over and over.

The misdirection part had me in tears laughing 😂

The only exception for imperial seal is if you want the card on top of your deck. Miracle strategies or Yuriko. Cards that let you play cards off the top.

Doubling season is probably finally at a price I would feel comfortable getting for a specific deck that uses both sides of the enchantment. I've turned my Frodo/Sam into counters/tokens and it's something I've considered adding to do some big splashy plays with. There are also many commanders that care about both sides

Black also has Mandate of Abaddon, Massacre Girl and Last One Standing in rakdos

I like how almost contentious the Doubling Season convo was. Like, it's a powerful card but I tend to agree it's just not worth its price tag. Every time I ran it back before it became 50+ dollars I'd get targeted hard so I wouldn't token or +1/+1 swarm and start clipping huge chunks of people's life totals. Or it was a card I had to hold in hand for several turns AFTER I'm able to cast it so I get value immediately and start doing some damage so I'm not just outright telegraphing what I'm about to do. I feel it's five mana that is not well spent if anyone is running even a half hearted amount of removal because they're going to get rid of it ASAP anyway, if not immediately (or outright countered). I've cut it from a lot of my decks and instead opted for the incremental ones like Hardened Scales, Pir, Good Fortune Unicorn, etc. Having multiple means of producing extra +1/+1 counters and just having better token generators on their own has worked better for me in the long haul. Less 'generic' than Doubling Season but also means I don't get pressured nearly as hard as I would if I slap that card on the table. Too much money to 'invest' in a card that gets me blown out of a game every time.

Esper Sentinel I believe is good. I think not only does it do card advantage, but most importantly while you're advancing your opponents have to take a detour. They either have to pivot and waste a removal spell or use mana to prevent drawing which can still postpone their plans.

In the conversation, you completely forgot your own strap line - "These cards are expensive, but that doesn't mean they're good! Avoid these expensive cards!". Especially Seth who lives in some Parallel universe.

13:02 My Tutors va Budget strategy is to splurge on the tutor target first Even if I want to optimize a deck lands are first, then ramp, card draw, then win cons, then get best option for tutors as a final way to fully optimize

Doubling season is NOT worth the price. It is to expensive for the ability and only fits in certain decks that take adv of both. I have it in my UG kicker deck, because Verazol actually cares about both 😅

The financial argument from seth on duals never being worth less than you bought them is a solid point.

I personally have replaced cyc rift with Turn About in any blue deck. Rift bores me, and the utility Turn About offers is insane. It doesn't force a board reset like rift, but it can prevent a huge attack, tap out an opponents mana on their upkeep, act as a mana ritual or a combat trick for sneaky blockers.

I think in quite a few token decks Doubling Season is win more. For example, Rhys for 6 mana can double your tokens and Ghave has plenty of Commander based comboes that don't need the additional tokens. Commander now has so many efficient token producers and Commander who can chain into more tokens that you ever need that you're often times better off with another card that isn't a 5 cmc do nothing enchant. The strength of Doubling Season I think is decks that can utilize both halves or Enchantment decks like Callix or Anikthea that can turn Doubling Season into a token and turn it into Exponential-ling Season.

I think doubling season is worth the price right now because in like a year or two it's probably gonna be a 100 bucks again haha

I started in EDH w/ a Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider deck, moved to an Arwen, Mortal Queen list, then Hamza, then Hydra Tribal (Helmed by Selvala, HoW), then Sovereign Okinec Ahau, and now Lathiel. Hamza is the only one of those that Doubling Season isn’t a monster in. Esper Sentinel, same deal. Card is great, and gets better when you can incidentally slap 3-4 counters on it. (Innkeeper’s Talent goes hard w/ Esper Sentinel.) Sylvan Library is still a great card, IMO. Paying the hard eight to clear a dead-ish card and 2 lands mid-game has saved me *so* many times. Have a hard time imagining a something-Green deck I wouldn’t want Sylvan Library in. That said, I’m biased, because Sylvan Library was one of the very first cards I mowed lawns for $$ to pick up, when the Legends printing was all we had. Far as Wheel of Fortune goes, I got an opportunity to trade one for all the White and Green 30$ Good Stuff, and consider it the best trade of my life. Esper Sentinel, Smothering Tithe, Akroma’s Will, Craterhoof Behemoth, Serra Ascendent, The Great Henge, Trouble in Pairs, and a Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, plus an LP Nyxbloom Ancient and a few battered 10$ cards. Hey, I hope that binder merchant sees Wheel jump another 100$, but in the meantime that’s made my month. Some folks go absolutely gaga for RL money cards. For me, show me the play value.

Honestly, if you're playing a two color deck or even a tri color deck, there's A LOT of dual lands that you can use and they work PERFECTLY with their play requirements like "you need an island or plains in play" or "you need two basic lands in play" or "you need two or more opponents" and so on. Nimbus Maze, Hengegate Pathway, Sea of Clouds, Prairie Stream, Skycloud Expanse, Glacial Fortress, Fortified Beachhead, Abandoned Beach (or whatever it's called) and so on (depending on which colors you're playing in of course the names change) will get you totally where you need to be plus the usual Command Tower, Reflecting Pool,

For Esper Sentinel, there are a ton of other white draw spells that you could play that are waaaay cheaper and are frequently much better late game than ES. Outside of enchantress/equipment trigger style effects you could play: Mangara the Diplomat ($1) Alms Collector ($1.50) Dawn of a New Age ($4) Firemane Commando ($3.50) Chivalric Alliance ($4) Staff of the Storyteller ($4) Glimmer Lens ($.50) Tocasia's Welcome ($3) Folk Hero ($1.50) Archivist of Oghma ($6.40) Master of Ceremonies ($3) Welcoming Vampire ($2.5) I built a deck around mono-white card draw and it always has a ton of cards in hand! And Esper Sentinel is pretty good turn 1 but after like turn 3-4 it does very little. All the above cards I would say are better after turn 3-4 than Esper Sentinel. Master of Ceremonies itself is way underrated and I think more people should play that.

Biggest reason why pre-2000s Magic is the best Magic: dual lands only cost $12-$15. They were cheap because they were everywhere. Today, I'm sure 90% of them are in collections with at least 50 others.

On the original duals, I've seen players in my area with the attitude "you shouldn't proxy them if you aren't willing to buy them" which is so weird to me. Like I can sort of see them argument if it's something like Gaea's Cradle, because that's actually a strong card that will increase your chances of winning.

Doubling season with rocco street chef is amazing (totally slept on commander btw)

My Gruul landfall deck makes incredible use of Sylvan Library. I think that dropping it turn 2 propells me so far ahead with my exploration effects and my Oracle of Mul Daya effects that on turn 6 or so Im so favored to win its nasty. It definitely still has its place in the format.

I don’t think Doubling Season is worth the mana. You can almost always get the effect your going for for substantially less mana or better value if you’re going to spend the mana: +1/+1 counters: -Branching evolution (3 mana) -Hardened Scales (1 mana) -Ozolith, the shattered spire (2 mana) SuperFriends: -Vorinclex, Monsterous Raider (Shuts down opponents’ counters, provides a blocker/attacker and as a bonus increases poison counters or stops/slows poison counters on you none of which DS does) Tokens (all come in a turn earlier at 4 mana): -Mondrak, Glory Dominus -Annointed Procession -Parallel Lives

For the decks I make, the true dual lands would in most cases double or almost double the cost of the deck. My most expensive deck is my Sheoldred deck which is around $500, granted its monocolor, and the only reason it is so much is that I opened a Sheoldred and The One Ring in packs, it wouldn't even exist if that didn't happen because I would never fork out the money for Sheoldred or the One Ring individually. I target $200-500 per deck, so it would literally at least double my multicolor decks. Also Doubling Season needs MORE reprints. Pretty much all of these cards need reprints, ESPECIALLY the dual lands. The reserve list should be burned.

Just today I was looking for a "just counters' half of doubling season for green/white. Tons of stuff for +1/+1 counters specifically but for what i wanted it was like... lae'zel, pir, and vorinclex as the only alternatives. To be fair voinclex is a pretty nice body to have on the field and his negative counters on opponents can be really incredible sometimes. Now I'm just really stuck between choosing him or doubling...

Doubling season def worth it, when you want to double your tokens, you usually have some other effects that also profit from the double counters as Seth said.

23:10 Ghave for sure. That's the only one I can think of though since my Ghave Enchantress deck is one of my most favorite decks. It enables 4 combos in my deck. Ghave + Phyrexian Altar + Doubling Season, Ghave + Ashnod's Altar + Doubling Season, Ghave + Cryptic Trilobite + Doubling Season and Ghave + Earthcraft + Doubling Season enabling infinite man, infinite tokens and infinite death triggers that end games with things like Corpse Knight/The Meathook Massacre/Blood Artist or control board states with Grave Pact/Aura Shards.