10 Examples of EDHREC Being Wrong | Commander Clash Podcast 126 

i love that for brainstorm richard says its not in a precon while showing the afr commander version of the card

Richard bringing up Farseek multiple times and no references to him playing it in mono green is a crime

Richard: Play fog, it'll save your bacon. Also Richard: Cyc Rift only prolongs the game for a single turn.

Richard: Mana dorks are metagame dependent Me: Oh my god are they finally going to recognize that their meta is way more wrath heavy than the majority of playgroups? Richard: That means you should play MORE wraths!

Should have called this episode like "7 times MTG Goldfish was wrong about EDHREC"

It’s crazy how often the argument against playing anything is that it could possibly get removed or countered comes up.

richard arguing that you cant hold up a fetchland vs richard arguing that you can hold them up right after

After hearing his unhinged rant about Cyclonic Rift, I am onboard for the start of Richard's villain arc

Mana dorks are modular. Early game, mana dorks are ramp. Mid-game, mana dorks are creature synergy pieces. Late-game, mana dorks are additional bodies for Craterhoof Bohemoth. I'd rather draw a mana dork late game than a Sol Ring.

Richard, I have seen so many "I have Cyclonic Rift, game over" situations. It is fog/board wipe/evasion quite often.

This is a great idea! You could even call it "Disputing the Data"... No, wait... "Confronting the Statistics"... No, doesn't sound quite right... Well, I am sure you will think of something!

Another "Challenge the Stats" segment that Joey can't segue into 😂

man seth nailed it with the statistics about death rite shamans, his arguments just overshadowed what everyoneelse said for me well done seth

It's so painfully obvious how much more commander Tomer plays than the other 3.

5:00 Crim trying to argue that "Draw a card, look at the top 2 cards of your deck" is a weaker effect than "Draw a card" because he feels bad when the 2 cards he sees are bad.

Mana dorks exist to help you play cultivate turn 2 so you can turn 3 your 5 mana commander.

Tomer needs to start bringing out blood moon and back to basics to punish these greedy mana bases.

“Why don’t you just cut the 10 cent Llanowar Elves from all your decks and replace them with $175 Mana Crypts?” Having a Big Think over here 🤔🤔🤔

2:24 Brainstorm 10:26 Deathrite Shaman 19:58 Mana Dorks 31:55 Lightning Greaves 37:02 Cyclonic Rift 43:05 Teferi's Ageless Insight 50:15 Wrath of God 54:47 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth 1:01:45 Sign in Blood and bonus callouts

I have won more games off of an Overloaded Cyclonic Rift than any other card in the format. Richard is dead wrong. Yes, lots of people play it wrong, but when played at the right moment it is an absolute blowout.

Brainstorm is both in the Baldur's Gate precon and in the Warhammer 40k precon.

I get that Deathrite Shaman isn't like auto include in very many decks, but it certainly never sucks.

I swear Richard is a contrarian who just says stuff to get a reaction out of people

Brainstorm is typically pretty good to me. Like Tomer said, if you have something that abuses the top-card, Brainstorm is great. But, also, there are times I’d rather dig into the deck a bit, grab some lands and low-cost things, then save a couple of 3 & 4-drops for the next couple of turns. Yeah, there are times I want to shuffle, but there are also times I don’t want to shuffle. Probably still over-played, though

I disagree with Brainstorm. Why does everyone always talk about "Brainstorm Locking" like its the Brainstorm's fault your top three cards are bricks? You would have bricked just as badly if the Brainstorm was a draw 1 like Gitaxian Probe, the Brainstorm just lets you know 2 turns earlier. Blaming Brainstorm is just being mad at the bearer of bad news.

I do agree that mana dorks are likely to be removed, but in my experience, most players don't run 10 wraths. I have played many games that don't even have one. I don't think they are quite as fragile in casual as the Crew claims.

Cascade/discover decks can also make good use of Brainstorm. Getting the specific card you want to cascade into is great.

Crim in the demolition lovers sweatshirt and blue hair making him full grixis is actually fire

Seth is so wrong about mana dorks it's crazy. If you have a turn one mana dork, you've spent 1 mana to generate 1 extra mana for every turn the dork is on the battlefield. 2 or 3 turns is enough for a dork to be good. Turn 1 mana ramp is really good! I don't care if it gets wrathed. Not to mention creatures are good.

Any commander that has a "draw a card whenever you do X" effect wants teferi's ageless insight.

This is the longest challenge the stats section ever... by 6 minutes and 46 seconds. EDHRECast did a full episode on this too lololol

Like they said at the beginning, recently I've found that EDHrec is a tool, not a be all end all. Some of the most fun I've had in mtg deckbuilding is making decks with less use of EDHrec and more of scryfall like resources. Really leads to the decks feeling different than others with the same commander.

"Brainstorm lock" is fictitious. There are obviously more and less efficient ways to play the card, but the idea that by knowing your top deck you're locking yourself is incorrect.

MTG Goldfish has joined the trend of Challenge The Stats.

Wrath of god is 4 mana, there are very few that cost less and I have found that the regeneration clause on it actually comes up

Using Richard logic, mana dorks are kind of like a 1 mana extra turn spell on turn 1. Most people skip their first turn because they don't have a play. A mana dork utilizes that turn by ramping. By time someone is willing to board wipe, you've probably gotten plenty of value from it.

Seth is a good magic player, so I don't understand why he can't seem to understand that card selection is better than "number of net cards drawn". Sign in Blood is better than it has any right to be especially in a 40 life format.

Richard called himself a "weenie expert" hehehehehehe Also, why is my opponent using removal on my lightning greaves a bad thing? Thats one less removal pointed at my cmdr Finally, ive been playing edh since the 1st precons, cyclonic rift basically always wins me the game every time i cast it

I feel like people heavily overstate how bad being brainstorm locked is. Let's label the cards in the deck A,B,C, etc. for clarity You have 4 cards in hand, A,B,C, and D. The cards on top of your deck are E,F,G,H etc. A cantrip is on the stack - either a brainstorm without access to shuffle, or an opt. With opt, you can get E immediately, or skip past it and get F immediately. If you take E, it'll take you two additional draws to reach G, and three draws to reach H. If you bottom it, it'll take you 1 draw to reach G, and two draws to reach H. With brainstorm, you can get E,F, and G immediately. You then put any two cards you don't need immediately on top. It'll take you three draws to reach H. That's identical to an opt with a scry to the top, and one draw slower than an opt with a scry to the bottom. If the card you really needed was E, both get it immediately. If the card you really needed was F, opt gives you the chance to not scry properly and not get it until a turn later, while brainstorm gets it in hand immediately no matter what. If the card you really needed was G, brainstorm gets it in hand immediately, while opt has to wait at least a turn to get it. If you needed both E and F, opt forces you to wait a turn, while brainstorm get's it immediately. If you needed E and G, opt forces you to wait two turns. If you needed E and some card H or lower, both get you there at the same speed. If the card you needed is H or deeper, opt is faster by a turn, but only if you scry bottom. Otherwise they're the same. Brainstorm with a "lock" is either better or the same as opt, in every situation except when you need a card 4 deep in the deck or further, and also don't want the card on top, and also don't mind waiting to draw several additional cards anyway. And sure, that situation isn't exactly rare. But it's also far from universal. A lot of the time, you'll be thinking "I need a board wipe this turn or I die" or "I need to hit a mana rock so I can play my commander next turn." And so you'll fire off a cantrip to try to find it. Brainstorm is a better card in these urgent situations, even if you have to lock yourself to do it. With the ability to unlock yourself even some of the time, it's really not a contest.

I feel like 25% for brainstorm is about right when you consider how many blue commanders care about drawing multiple cards, playing instants, or manipulating the top of your deck. It plays well with a wide variety of strategies. Urza can shuffle away stuff, Niv Mizzet will get 3 triggers off of it. You can prep a card from hand to setup Yuriko, Jodah, or Kinnan.

“Cyclonic Rift is an 8 mana Fog” More like a 7 mana Fog plus Time Stretch

Why does Seth think Minn and Alandra are "unplayable commanders"? Especially if you go on almost any forum and look for posts about "most fun commanders" you'll usually see someone mention Minn.

I watch the videos and listen to the podcasts while I work. Thank yall for helping me laugh through the days!

The main reason I use Wrath of God in 2023 is thats its 4 mana. I use vanquish the horde first, obviously. But I like having mana left over for other things, or to hold up mana for a counter. Sometimes I want to use a heroic intervention and then a wrath right after so its sort of a build-your-own one sided board wipe for my creature decks. That type of thing.

Not playing fetch-lands because shuffling is a hassle, etc. - I would love to see a podcast of cards you don't play specifically because of the IRL hassle they create - stuff that would be fine in an automated system but just isn't worth it at the physical table

I've been absolutely blown out by deathrite in cedh, so I think it's rated at least in a graveyard meta

Okay so now I need a commander clash with different ramp methods, one person uses mana dorks, one uses spell land ramp, one uses creature land ramp, and one uses enchantments

I love the mtggoldfish crew, im so glad you all are still doing content after my 3 year hiatus from magic.

So this video is basically an extended version of the Challenge the Stats segment from the EDGRecc cast? They stole the segue from the entire podcast!!!

Tomer, please bring galadriel to the table and body them all. Run every phase out spell and put crim and Richard under a 6/6 elf.

Teferi's Ageless Insight + Sauron the Dark Lord = 🔥

What I think is the best aspect of mana dorks is how they are the cheapest way financially to get 3 mana on turn 2 and start doing other stuff be it 3+ mv land ramp (a lot more budget than the 2 mv options) or setting up a engine and finish your early development one turn earlier.

Richard is so obviously the boss because if he wasn't he wouldn't be on a commander podcast

"Challenge the Stats" is what they normally call this

I think for wrath of God, the stats may be skewed due to how recently some of the better white wraths have been printed. Since they’ve only been around for a few years compared to Wrath of God’s 30 years, there is significantly more data from edh decks containing wrath of god. So unless all those older decks are being edited or remade when new wraths are released, the data kind of represents an older general edh meta where wrath of God was one of if not the best wrath to run in white decks.

Recommending Propaganda and Ghostly Prison in Superfriends despite neither of them taxing attacks on your planeswalkers

Blue has a TON of Commanders that like to mess with the top of the deck. You don't need to be shuffling those cards, you might be casting stuff from the top of the deck. Blue does that a lot.

I think the real lesson of the mana dork debate is that people have gotten way too complacent with their lands with armageddons getting hated out of the meta. I meant to post this on the MLD commander clash, and just... didn't, but I would be down to see the occasional armageddon on Commander Clash. Not like every week, but I think it would be healthy as an occasional spice. If nothing else, it'll get Richard's opinions in check lol

I think Teferi's Ageless Insight is worth a look if your commander has draw attached. Aminatou's +1 is really quite good with it out, Kadena drawing two cards, etc.

For Teferi's Ageless Insight or brainstorm, does it count as playing them for "value" when my commander is Queza, Augur of Agonies?

EDHREC even has a segment every week where they challenge the data on their site guys. And regarding Sign in blood effects I think it depends a bit on how you build. Dana on edhrec loves these, but he probably builds decks a bit different from Seth.

In the subject of 1 mana mana dorks. would you play a card that draws a card and create a treasure token? cause it often works like that with dorks in green

With Deathrite how much overall value do you want for a one cmc creature? On average i see it ramp at least once and deal 12 damage to the table.

I used to think mana dorks were bad, but modern magic cards are so powerful that ramping to your 5 and 6 drops can be worth losing a card later to a wrath. If your turn one play is a dork into a turn two cultivate or something, you are casting things like Elesh norn, elder gargaroth , powerful planeswalkers, etc before most people are even set up. Imagine casting two dorks and a ramp spell turns 1-3, and then casting an etali. Sure your dorks might die, but you got 4 cards for free before your opponents can fight back. You have to have the payoffs, but they have actually gotten better in recent years.

Big agree that mana dorks are underrated. Especially Llanowar Tribe in casual mono-G. Why yes, I’d absolutely love to be on 7 mana on T4. Or T3 if I played Llanowar Elves on T1.

I use brainstorm in yuriko, its nice to manipulate my top deck. I love deathrite in my muldrotha and krovlod deck too

Seth wincing at Crims insanity was like watching my own thoughts play out on his face.

I built a Toxrill deck shortly after it came out and soooo many of the cards on EDHREC were infect cards… which I now know have absolutely no place in that deck 😂

I play a Child of Alara gates deck with 59 lands 20 of them fetches, never thought of brainstorm going to put that in.

Sounds like MTGgoldfish posing as the EDHRECast today. Should be fun.

That take from Richard on Cyclo Rift is wild lmaooo Cyclo Rift is incredibly strong in so many different metas. Ive seen it win games several times

Actually arguing over whether or not Cyclonic Rift is a good card felt so surreal, lol. Like, that was a joke played for laughs, right? We’re all in Disney World!

The flip side to you wrathing the mana dork player is they dropped bolas's citadel on turn four meanwhile all your ramp ETBed tapped and costs twice as much. Also the difference between guardian project and tireless tracker is per card tireless tracker costs three extra mana (two for clue one mana tax for efficient land ramp).

Brainstorm goes so hard in River Song lel

Can't wait for the Goldfish Crew to start stealing Joey's transitions to Challenge the Stats as well.

This somehow actually made me want to reconsider *adding* Teferi's Ageless Insight to some spellslinger decks. Most of the spellslinger decks I build are interested in casting multiple cantrips in a turn; TAI would likely function as a second copy of Whirlwind of Thought in a lot of cases, being worse sometimes but better others. I'll have too look at how many effects "draw a card" and "draw multiple cards" vs "put a card in your hand" (or don't cantrip at all).

At 45:40 we now understand why Seth never pays for Rhystic Study.

I've actually grown more fond of the smaller black card draws over time as i've played more. Ive got nothing against phyexian arena but ive found 3 mana for 3 cards right now is more impactful than 3 mana for 3 cards after the table has gone full circle 3 times assuming nothing happens in the meantime.

Fade Away is the all-star card. I love playing it in random pods and stuns everyone when they sac their tapped out board.

I agree with Tomer. Nobody’s going to board wipe turn 1-4, except in special circumstances. So, mana dorks are essential to have early game, if not to ramp into your mana rocks , but to be extra mana by turn 4 or 5 to get those 7,8,9 bombs out. Deathrite Shaman is NOT a mana dork. He should be run with life gain or punishment grave hate decks.

While brainstorm is basically a cantrip in some decks, it does fix your early turn in some instances. Maybe you can fix your curve by just adding 2 additional cards to your hand before you decide to mulligan with.

The core of green decks is creature decks not landfall 😂

The one podcast were Matt Morgan can’t steal the Segway into challenge the stats

If you're "annoyed" that your opponents are always playing Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, punish them by playing with Kormus Bell and your creature destruction has become land destruction. It also gives their land summoning sickness, for an added bonus.

I was literally going to say that teferi’s ageless insight is in my gavi deck

I wouldn't mind a follow up of cards you guys think are underrated on EDHrec and should be in more decks, maybe not auto-include per se, but fulfills a lot of roles.

i think it would be funny if once per game, y'all made someone test one of these theories. So like next Friday you make Tomer run a bunch of mana dorks, or make Richard run a bunch of spot removal, and see what happens.

Stuff like Teferi’s Ageless Insight go best in decks which use Monarch so you can trigger them without needing a draw spell, even tho you’d still run those too.

Among my almost 30 decks the only deck I play mana dorks in, is Torsten. He loves to have creatures in the deck and provides the refill after ramping.

im confused about richards thoughts on mana dorks. they ramp into your toskis quicker and draw cards before they get wrathed or you sac them for value/death triggers. you can throw a priest of titania into any deck with all the llanowar's and its nuts. the floor is a floor-ahedron. you still get to play your wood elves, just on turn 2. love these little guys. they are fledgling ospreys+++

Richard & Crim dissing Brainstorm... Me using Saruman of Many Colours Deck: So you've chosen death

Raggadragga is a dork deck. Raggadragga can also win turns 3-4 with 2-3 creatures on board before the wraths come down

I like Terri’s Insight in Varina Lich Queen. Double draws on your attack triggers

Tomer please, tell me what the better shroud options are :(

Man, even other channels are stealing challenge the stats now. No one tell Joey

Lol. I feel you, Tomer. I play Kiki in my Norin deck and there's no hard combo. It's literally just for ETB value. I usually regret it cuz I end up looking too scary, but I don't care. I love him.

usually I like your videos but the brainstorm argument kinda turned me off the video, others already said it but I don't see how filtering your hand and knowing what the next two cards can be could be a bad thing especially when it's on a 1 mana card that replaces itself

The timespan of existence of those cards should be taken into perspective. Brainstorm for example is around for 28 years, oc it was in more decks then a new card.

This is more hot takes based on personal metas than useful info.

In this weeks episode we can't agree on the premise of our show!