Explaining Why Cloud Is Still Great in Ultimate 

damn that would honestly be a godsend

limit should only go away after 15 seconds if you get hit, like little mac's ko punch. Because it just goes away it's basically wasted on a random neutral B every time because the character is too weak to set up a kill for himself within 15 seconds most of the time

@@Xaasrevile I think 30 seconds would be Perfect

@@Xaasrevile bro if you can't get damage or a kill off of limit in FIFTEEN seconds you gotta improve yourself instead of blaming the game.

@@dandyd1877 sometimes fifteen seconds is a lot of time, sometimes not so much. Chill bro y u gotta go on the attack what'd he do???

That's because Cloud spergs out and pops his shoulder out of it's socket to reduce it's range. They should've just given him a different hitbox, instead of twisting his arm like some stretch armstrong.

Yeah I mean have you seen sm4sh

Society

Sadge

Personally I think they should buff because it's quite inconsistent and it isn't a very safe move, and yes. It was a bit unfair in the previous game, cus no-one else really had a tool to counterpart the move (and or those who had a move of similar or equal size, were complete shit). But in Ultimate it's a different case, because characters with stupid range are almost normal, I mean Pyra and Ike practically have smash 4 Cloud Nair and both are even stronger than Cloud's Nair in both games, it doesn't kill offstage until like 150-60 (depending the weight), compared to Link for example that he's move is smaller but it's way stronger. I feel in this game moves aren't mainly annoying by it's size but more about what they can do or how they work, I mean Palutena's Nair isn't that big compared to Min Min (for example), but everyone hates it even though doesn't have a HUGE range.

this is a war of ness

This is the new canon now.

Love your pfp they need devil Jin in smash 😩

@@Dontannoyme34894 lol look who's in now

@@donny3940 I knoww I can’t believe it

@@Dontannoyme34894 I would’ve rather had Jin in Smash, I thought he would’ve been more interesting. Kazuya is pretty cool too though

Thanks 🙏

Smooth

One thing they could do is decrease endlag on blade beam

If you main Cloud and you want him to get buffs, then that means you are not a good Cloud main. I'm sorry to assert my opinion this way, I main Cloud myself and I believe that he's perfect as is. He's very good yet not ridiculous. My wins (offline) feel deserved and rewarding. Wanting him to get buffed for the sake of being top tier rather than actually needing it is quite ignorant and rather greedy of you.

@@AviorGloria God damn bro you could’ve just said “Nah he’s balanced and rewarding as he is”😂

@@nanaakuoko9211 yeah he didn't need to rant like that

I just want a normal frame 7 grab and a N-air that hits people in a short hop. A more consistent falling up air would be nice as well.

Not really crazy tbh,in fact,It's perfectly normal as characters get affected by game mechanics differently

lmao, can't tell you how many people i have done that to when they get gready for the edge guard on last stock, or when i miss an edgeguard, they recover low and i just fucking yeet it

mostly only when below the ledge though. when above the legde, this is not guaranteed

@@cj_ocean true, people are more confident to just airdodge on stage if you go for it to high

Amen brother. Cloud mains' where it's at

Same for me except with Ness

Yeah but at least his nair in this one is little bit more damage than Sm4sh

smash 4 was my prime time...before sephitos showed up

It's fair enough

Agreed

Yeah with the exception recovery he does everything pretty well.

Why do u hate fighting him?

Fax

@@Espurna01 prob up b out of shield, and good aerials

Define "less reward"

@@captainmega6310 Either slightly less damage or making it more difficult to kill-confirm off of so many different interactions.

This coming from Sephiroth makes me wonder many things, but fully agreed.

I found actually playing neutral more fun then whatever that crap was last game. That's just me

thx ill remember that when i play a cloud on elite, those bastards are tricky

I think the up air should be able to hit taller characters but not characters like pichu, Kirby, and Jiggs lol

This ×10. He's not bad (I'd say better then half the cast), but I'd love to see him get a tiny bit of love just to smooth out the few places he feels clunky.

the only buff Cloud needs in my opinion is his grab, there is no reason to be below the average in speed, especially since he can't combo in any way with it, it should be better to be at par with the averange so he have that extra option.

@@nicolasvillasecaali7662 I also think that would be enough. Like I love the character, so I'm bias, but I play at around 8m gsp, and watch every Spargo tourney, and it's hard for me to say he (and probably half the cast) wouldn't benefit from a little nudge. At my tier people just hold shield like crazy, because even if I spam B-air it won't break it, and it's only a matter of time before my spacing is off enough to punish. And the rotating tomahawk Larry demonstrated is an absolute trash option for a long list of reasons 😅. Another idea for a buff would be to make it harder for people to fall out of his specials. Even Spargo dies a couple times a tournament to someone falling out of U-spec, Side-special, limit neutral special, etc., and then punishing it since you still can't move 🤦‍♂️

And Bayo

It is considering how hard you have to work for that limit when it lasts only 15 seconds.

Didn't even know that. Man Roy's kinda busted in this game ngl

Roy's specials are all superior to Clouds limit specials . Fact.

@@TheKejka13 no. Only side b

@@TheKejka13 and even then I could argue that even tho roy's side b kills earlier, limit cross slash woulf still be a better move bc it does more damage, is safe, bigger and has invinsibility frames

Everyone has played Cloud at least once. You should definitely attempt picking him up. He's quite frankly a very rudimentary character. It took me a week to be proficient with him.

Yes join the cloud mains he is gud character

As a cloud main I’ll tell you you’d be better off playing roy. You basically have limit side b all game long. Faster, stronger. Better combo games and a consistent and easy kill confirm. They nerfed cloud too hard and idc what results he gets he sucks compared to sm4sh cloud.

cause your in that bracket of players that are shiiiiiiit at the game, elite clouds don't do that

yes they do lol climbhazzard spam is like 90% of elite clouds

@@Nowel22222 tbh those are clouds that are barely in elite smash tho, im talking about 9 mil and up

@@Nowel22222 you are correct tho

Arena is better than Quickplay

acting like young link and toon link getting buffed was an important historical event

Neither have I

@@blueheart9873 how it takes 30 minutes

I don't even have the game

Didn't even buy that shit lol

@@chasesigler9885 Joy Con drift pissed me off too much

Dude it’s so fun to play him even though I main sephiroth, terry and chrom.

@@mattmihnuk4980 Very interesting line-up. I main Falcon, Cloud and even though I am really bad with him: Wolf

Seriously. Even though my Dark Pit and Terry are better, there's just something about Cloud thats fun

Agreed

OMG YESSSSSS limit climhazzard would be sooooo reliable as a kill option like that. For realsies

Huh 😶

Wtf was this comment ahah

Lmao loved this comment. If you know, you know.

@@CloudStrifeFF7 first person who knew the reference 😂

Yeah👀

Every time I see Cloud in Smash, I'm reminded of M2K's demonstration of his nerfs in Ultimate. Specifically the time he flung his lanyard around in a tiny circle, lol.

Don't be ridiculous, Cloud is perfectly fine the way he is. Cloud needing buffs is nothing more than balderdash.

@@AviorGloria i don’t think I’m being ridiculous I’m not calling for ludicrous buffs. Besides I don’t even play Cloud so I really don’t care.

Most of his attacks do cover the entire sword and are overall quite generous. The notable exceptions would be neutral air, and down air's late hitbox, which makes sense since it's a lingering hit. The only one I could see being buffed is neutral air since the animation kind of lies to the player and the tip of the sword will miss for no reason. In smash 4 this was also true but the move was so much larger due to the different animation that no one cared. If they added a small extra hitbox at the end of nair I would be fine with that but he doesn't need anymore than that IMO.

@@Logan17258 Yeah that's exactly what I'm talking about. Perhaps "many" was not the correct word, but a few moves (indeed including N-Air) have misleading visual representation for the tip of the sword.

@@Logan17258 finally someone address this, thank you good sir.

Agreed

Nair went from an all-use move to a no-use move... They should make his Finishing Touch stronger too, it has no use except for a mega hard read

I think the Limit Timer is a good nerf, they should do something to indicate how long you have left. It isn't too hard to time but occasionally it fucks me up. One Wing is nutty but Sephy can't charge it like Cloud can and he loses it unless he gets a star k.o. Joker is broken across the board. Nair really could use a better hitbox it doesn't even match the length of his sword. Some characters have fucking insane nairs in this game. I like that you want to use Fair in neutral now as it can be safe on sheild. Nair from Sm4sh was too centralizing in his kit. It did everything. I just want some utility back.

Also agree.

My thoughts as a Cloud solo main since 4: *Neutral air* could use a buff in Ultimate, not as great as 4 perhaps but somewhere in between, there's a part of the Buster Sword where the tip straight goes through the opponent without hitting them. *Finishing Touch* I don't have much thoughts on it, I used it more in 4 as far I remember but it's still an all or nothing move as Larry put it. Since above 60~70 for most character it's an instant K.O. I'm not sure what buff it should get if at all. I like the kill power vs percent dealt, maybe a stronger wind box but that would only work agains't a handful of character for cheese. Overall on all of Cloud Limit Breaks Down B is by far the least used for sure. *Limit Charge* This is one I was disappointed in going in Ultimate, as it makes no sense coming from the original even you'd lose limit randomly, you have to use it. But after hearing Sakurai's thoughts and other players on the Cloud matchup I heard some Clouds used the infinite limit to "Limit camp" which is super boring to watch whenever the cloud has the stock advantage and use higher mobility camp. I know limit charge got a buff in the latest patches though, but overall I like it. For things I love about Cloud: *Climhazzard* , though nerf the limit version can kill, good OOS option, spikes, what's not to love? Favorite move: *Cross slash* The reason I'm not mentionning Climhazzard faults as a recovery. Cross slash enables cloud to stall in the air above the opponent and just when they think you're getting to the stage and letting theie moves out, you down air their ass followed by a climhazzard short hop which probably isnt true but work 90% of the time for me. Amazing mix ups, can use to trap people going low and recover high thanks to stalling so long as you got your jump, otherwise GG. I can edgeguard well with cloud on most character with CS, go offstage use it on them, if they air dodge through you jump back air can catch some, you can go for climhazzard reverse spike after they dodge cross slash or if low you get back to ledge and down air to stage when they go up. Limit or not cross slash kills offstage insanely quick, it's awesome. Cloud's awesome

Bayonetta is such a difficult character to balance because I feel like there’s no in the middle with her. Either her stuff works and she’s top tier or her stuff doesn’t work and she’s bad. Cloud’s problem wasn’t his design so he could be balanced more while keeping his playstyle from 4. A lot of people hated Bayonetta in 4. I don’t think any character in Smash has gotten as much hate as she did and for good reason: she killed the game. The last thing the devs wanted to do is have people bitching about Bayonetta again so they gutted her

Her stuff still works but instead of killing off the top she now kills off the sides

So it kills later on fastfallers and kills earlier on floaty characters?

@@eaa1338 In Sm4sh, yeah

Also actual slowest normal grab in the game, at frame 9 standing and 12 from dash

Finishing touch should do more damage, however, other than that, it has no issues.

@@AviorGloria its way too slow, extremely hard to confirm.

Or needs the wind box fixed (so it isn't most likely to save your opponent), or needs armor (maybe like Byleth D-special).

@@AviorGloria naw then it's gonna why use cross slash yall thinking to simple just like these patches all they have to do is make it a utility move like limit up b make Finishing Touch a shieldbreaker move like Lucina NB & byleth down smash uncharge (both) so it's a reason for the 1% & having the worse grab while also helping him from people shield turtling. a one use shieldbreaker that kills if u don't kill at the right % it does 1% limit is gone & still laggy af wiffing

That was a brutal loss

LEORIOOO

it just means they practice playing with their router being actively chewed on by their dog

Roy here I come then.

as a zss main i feel you

@@morgydee alright marss we get it she isn’t top tier oh no

@@morgydee ZSS can go flip kick to the blast zone and never come back

bayo made bad habits in their mains. Giving easy kills should never be the way to play smash

@@Magic0YT Well I never played Smash 4 Bayo so

I literally use for air to air moments simply because its decently fast.

@@alfonsovelazquez9565 It hits above him the quickest so maybe use it over up air after landing utilt, otherwise its best to space with bair

I don't even think Cloud's up-B is that easy to cheese with. I feel like Chrome's is way worse. The amount of times I got sucked in and spiked into the blastzone even though I shielded at the ledge is unreal.

Yeah the grab is bad but do you actually get anything out of it with Cloud? Like i feel sometimes throwing people at low percents puts *me* into disadvantage lol

@@ngotemna8875 You get advantage state with up throw and positioning with some others.

@@dave9515 Oh.... Out of habit I Down-throw 90% of times (what can I say? I main Falcon xD) and that never does any good for me. Will keep this in mind, Thx.

I was expecting you here

@@dave9515 not with that slow ass 12 frame dash grab you forgot how fast defensive options is in smash in the time Spain of me doing cloud grab before a Wario did anything he had time to put his Shield up sit there (oh that's a grab) 3 frame jump out of shield & wafted me at 50% i died

Sparg0 is fantastic, reliable, and will always stick to Cloud

Hey! Larry has a video titled "The rise and fall of pichu" It dropped just about 1 month ago, which isn't super recent, but it's still relevant and is really well made. Give it a watch if you haven't, and let me know what you think :D

@@Harry-jw1fj sick How'd I miss that? I'll go check it out

Agreed, Pyra's forward smash kills at 40 on midweights center stage witch charge, thats nuts. But shes probably the slowest character in game too, balance.

Nate Ferland Pyra isn’t the slowest character? That’s Incineroar

@@Mr__Jack LIGHTNING FAST. Hi ness boi, notice how I said: *probably* it's well known Robin Pyra and incineroar are slow af. Just didn't know which one was with Pyra, ur welcome kid

@@0TTERBRO Uhhhhh, kinda rude. But anyway, I just looked it up, Shes the 6th slowest character in the game. Faster than Mii gunner, Ganon, Puff, Robin, and Incin. Also fsmash doesn't kill if they DI, I don't have a second controller to reliably test that, but just from eyeballing the knockback, it would probably take a bit more percent to do so fully charged.

@@shadowstar2194 I'm not seeing it. Wasn't meant to be rude so no need for assumptions. And yes I tested it myself when she released they lived if they DI of course

I would say Fox

Actually cloud to my knowledge has a worse grab box

@@Ajaylix According to Ultimate Frame Data, Fox is the third worst grab range (11.0) tied with Link The two behind Fox are Heo and Ice Climbers but Ice Climbers have insane combo throw and Hero has some combos I think but his grab is pretty bad too And Link also have some combo and I find his grab pretty useful Cloud has a 12.0 grab range so I guess Fox is worst ^^'

Nowhere near. Cloud has easy and high damage combos, amazing tech chasing, and one of the best neutrals in the game

No cause Roy can combo off of sour spot attacks.

@@5hyguy42 No he can't, you can mash out of sourspot combos because they have no hitstun. Roy players talk about how the sour spot does nothing all the time

@@dandyd1877 I must play against really bad players cause I do that