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F-14 - Engaging Jamming Aircraft. Or, Why DCS is a Poor Combat Sim 

FlyAndWire
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This video strongly differs from the usual. It starts by recapping some of the issues affecting DCS, showing how simplistic the interactions between an aircraft and any external object are. Whether we are talking about radars, jamming, comms, air-to-ground, they are always basic and limited. Moreover, they often limit the capabilities of some aircraft. Jamming is the latest and greatest example. This is pushing me to abandon the "quest for realism", and blurs the boundary between poor mechanics and exploits.
TIMESTAMPS
0:40 - DCS issues
3:40 - Introduction, raison d'être
5:35 - Basics: Home-On-Jam
6:33 - Modus operandi and Example I (vs J-11A)
9:59 - Example II (vs J-11A)
12:26 - Example III (vs F-16C)
17:49 - Example IV (vs F-16C)
19:30 - Example V (vs F-15C)
Note: a bunch of (former) friends abandoned the Tomcat for the F-16 after the Phoenix overhaul. Hence the banter towards their precious Fighting Falcon.
Bloody traitors lol

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30 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 30   
@FlyAndWire
@FlyAndWire Год назад
IMPORTANT: I forgot to mention in the video that the AI cheats and it is capable of launching HOJ lofting missiles at you well before the burnthough range ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@lefty59th18
@lefty59th18 Год назад
Very well put, this is actually a very good recap of where DCS evolution is strangling for 20 years now. Many of this is the same since LOMAC, like static RCS and burnthrough ranges, dice-roll countermeasures. Too much focus on missiles in my opinion, nut sure of the motivations or the goals of ED. Keep up!
@blckdrgn813
@blckdrgn813 Год назад
Very interesting. I hope one day we can get radar specific burnthrough ranges so that way everyone doesnt have the "balanced" 30nm burnthrough. The AWG-9's behemoth floodlight shouldn't be equivalent to the Viper's flashlight. Still though this seems to track what I thought is most viable for jammer engagement, (meaning: 45nm estimated range, go 40 degrees nose up, launch, crank, re-engage)
@FlyAndWire
@FlyAndWire Год назад
One of the interesting things of a more realistic jammer is its directionality. No more jamming regardless of aspect and other parameters. The AWG-9 is indeed powerful, with good agility, and it was apparently hard to jam. However, ED should consider the era and power of the jamming devices. At the end of the day, jamming right now is a boolean flag, whereas it should have more features: power, direction, era, et cetera. I posted a couple of equations that explain the S/N and J/S relations, and variables include range, RCS, jammer power, gain and so on.
@yep6205
@yep6205 10 месяцев назад
i barely understand your accent bro
@NOTJustANomad
@NOTJustANomad 3 месяца назад
skill issue 😂 you got jammed bro.
@nathanalvar9156
@nathanalvar9156 5 месяцев назад
Dude, i love your website and all your videos. Holy shit, you are doing gods work. I am still struggling to see if jamming is worth it? or when it is worth it in DCS? any chance you can elaborate on when to use it? And does all the jamming work the same between the modules?
@FlyAndWire
@FlyAndWire 5 месяцев назад
Hey thanks mate! Jamming is, more or less, the same across the DCS board: noise jammers aiming to deny range determination. About when to use it, the ideal bracket imo is between the adversary's detection range and burnthrough: too far and you make yourself visible, too close and you are helping hostile missiles.
@nathanalvar9156
@nathanalvar9156 5 месяцев назад
@@FlyAndWire I have noticed if you leave your jammer on (e.g. SU-27) and the bandit shoots an AMRAAM with-in burn through range, that it doesn't take as high of a loft trajectory to intercept. I was wondering if you had seen this too?
@The_Tau
@The_Tau Год назад
Amazing. Thanks for tips fighting Jamming targets! So what is the logic on Home-on-Jam in DCS? Missile HOJ is set only before launch? and then it stays in HOJ throughout the life of missile? I thought if missile loses HOJ (jammer of target off) then missile reverts to active mode (if it have radar). Like your RWR 13:40 was gave you warning that aim120 has its radar on and locked you didnt it? and yet it was still looking for jamming target?
@FlyAndWire
@FlyAndWire Год назад
No problem mate! Something I just pinned in a comment and I forgot to mention, is that the AI cheats and can launch HOJ lofting missiles before the burnthrough range. To answer your question, I think that the AI cannot do proper JAT tracking, so the missile keeps going in a general direction, and it activates itself at some point. However, with me turning the jammer off and no support, I guess the missile lost any reference and its seeker was out of gimbals at A-pole. However, emission cones are greater than the seeker's gimbals I suppose, so my RWR barked anyway. The real answer is that I fail to see any logic in how jamming is implemented, so take everything I say with a gran of salt.
@The_Tau
@The_Tau Год назад
@@FlyAndWire Its just amazing for me that you simply switch off Jammer and it made that 120 go stupid. But it doesnt work for 54s isnt it?
@FlyAndWire
@FlyAndWire Год назад
@@The_Tau I may be wrong, but I think this worked back in LOMAC as well. I was a SU-27 player back then, though. I suppose that it doesn't work for the F-14 as I was tracking the angles. In TWS seems to be working too, but there are issues with the final guidance. Perhaps doing the same with an F-whatever locking in STT works too. No clue.
@NicoMavB
@NicoMavB Год назад
I'm this kind of simer who does not use the sim on it full potential. I will never understand deep enought operation of radar emission and other EM system (detector, jamming, etc) to really have the ability to make the difference beetwin a hardcore realistic modeling and an average modeling. But i love what you said because even if i'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject, i expect a realistic sim to be the best one i'm evolving in. And i inform myself throught constructive criticize from peole who have the knowedge. Not because i want to use the sim at it best, but because i want to be in the best universe possible even if i don't use it full. Knowing that is important to me. Knowing that you are using the best is important as using it, for the feeling it give to "touch" the reality ! To "touch" the dream even if your not at the good level. Even if the user is failing to be efficient. Failling is good and it push to adapt, wich is the definition of a simulation (and not a simple game). And also because i know that more realism will push me to know better in a way or an other. I thank you for this. And even if all those problems are already well known by the community (EM environment and operation, IA, COM and some systems related to especialy) it's cool that you speak about it nicely but such seriously. All that is well known. But ED maybe must ear it again.
@FlyAndWire
@FlyAndWire Год назад
Thank you for your comment and kind words. In regard to using the sim at its full potential, trust me, I've been stuck in the Valley of Despair for years now. Nevertheless, this is part of the beauty of this game: there is always something new to learn. For this process to continue, however, we need the game to keep aiming to new and more realistic mechanics. Otherwise, as it is happening to me, you eventually can immediately tell if what you see is realistic, or part of some corners cut by DCS. This breaks the magic of immersing in a realistic simulator.
@NicoMavB
@NicoMavB Год назад
@@FlyAndWire Agreeing with you totally. Realism is the target of simulation (even if it can not reach it perfectly), and simulation have a soul only by reaching the best realism possible. Even if all users d'ont use it..., it's important that they feel they have the tool in theire hands. And for those who can use it, it's important that they can enjoy it. Thanks to you ;)
@ВячеславФролов-д7я
Personally, last year's trend feels like "eliminate f14s potential in modern scenarios because poor, helpless f16/f18 pilots die from 60nm launches while flying high and doing nothing to defend incoming Phoenix" and with every nerf (I can't name it other way) only the most skilled f14 pilots remain in their tomcats so "problem" remains
@FlyAndWire
@FlyAndWire Год назад
I wouldn't put it this way. I agree that many, most players, actually, never bothered learning the weaknesses of the F-14 (they probably don't even know who Sun Tzu is). If they did, they would have understood immediately how to make the RIO's life painful. Knowing Heatblur, they strive for the most accurate depiction of their modules, even if this makes them less "competitive" (I hate this word). Keep in mind that the AWG-9 is operative since 1962 (60y old in 2022), and the Phoenix is a project of the 50s. It was really over performing before the recent overhaul. The problem is, people so unjustly scared of it, that put it in the same arena of modules with features implemented after 2000s, rather than where it belongs, in the late 70s to late 80s (granted, the ALR-45/50 would be more appropriate for the time period). After the early 90s, we should be playing the F-14D.
@154thVSQN
@154thVSQN Год назад
@@FlyAndWire your last comment about Heatblur fidelity modules, has been perfectly used by Ward Carroll (veteran Tomcat RIO) already about a week ago 😉
@FlyAndWire
@FlyAndWire Год назад
@@154thVSQN Hey! I'm familiar with Ward, but I am not following you. Can you please elaborate? :)
@micheledcs7312
@micheledcs7312 Год назад
Hi I don't understand how to shoot aim 54 phoenix in PDSTT with this long distance jamming
@FlyAndWire
@FlyAndWire Год назад
What's the matter?
@M3atP0psicl35
@M3atP0psicl35 Год назад
I love your content,but...If I send you a head tracker will you promise to use it?
@FlyAndWire
@FlyAndWire Год назад
Ahah I have an almost 20y old TIR 4 still perfectly working, and a TIR 5 I bought a couple of years ago. I received feedback long ago that the "wobbling" of the head makes viewing uncomfortable (something similar, but less noticeable, to VR); so I stick to toggling ALT+C. It doesn't look good, but after moving the camera, it is stable and works fine. I could also use my simpit, but then viewers would not be able to see which controls I am using. Similarly, I could bind Iceman's controls to the keyboard, but then viewers wouldn't know which commands I'm giving him. I'll give TIR5 a go next time I record something.
@keepwalking6041
@keepwalking6041 Год назад
100% agree, finally a video that shows what i felt about DCS for 20 plus years.. i love the game, love DCS, i played original Su27 back in 1996 ffs!!! )) but anywhow, this is not combat sim, its aircraft sim, its high fidelity module sim, has nothing to do with simulating combat of any sorts, AI is non existent, which is evident when you go to mission editor and have to explicitely tell AI to do anything if you want it to act with "brains", like, go to point A, turn radar on, use radar guided missiles, i think we are close to me having to specify-Dodge enemy air attack by banking left, perform s-split, then return and etc etc.. very very bad! about combat sim? there is nothing to show its combat sim, combat sim would put elements of war in the theatre and would have an effect on gameplay throughout the campaign for instance, or multiplayer session if you will .... is there an imperative to hit enemy HQ? or any C&C structures? nope, why should it, you can put a mission to do this but it has no relevance to anything.. combat sim would make it so if you FIND OUT where enemy HQ is, and successfuly hit it, it means troops movement is LESS coordinated and would result in less cohesion meaning your ground attack offensive would be 20-40% more effective or whatever.. there would be correlation between things you hit and their effects and need to prevent such hits by AI or human players.. so, yeah, sadly i don't see it will get to that point, DCS will remain module sim, will keep getting more modules and that is that..some sort of modern electronic module maker of planes..instead of buying modules and putting them together, you but electronic versions and run them through 3D machines-aka computers ..expensive hobby and that is all there is.. what is more, for true combat sim you don't even need the high fidelity nonsense, you need the basics of ground war done, you need to understand logistics, defense, attack, cover, penalties, morale, exhaustion, organisation etc etc.. and the tank units, statistics, almost irrelevant when compared to massive BASICS you need for combat sim..
@FlyAndWire
@FlyAndWire Год назад
From my understanding, multithreading is really close. Perhaps this will be the first step to more complex implementations, as the current engine is showing all its limitations. For example, apparently the dynamic campaign and ground AI were being developed at good pace, but perhaps the architectural overhaul is necessary before proceeding.
@jubuttib
@jubuttib Год назад
"100% agree, finally a video that shows what i felt about DCS for 20 plus years.." Just to clarify, are you being hyperbolic, or referring to older Su-27 Flanker and Lock On games? The first "DCS" game was the original Black Shark and came out about 15 years ago.
@FlyAndWire
@FlyAndWire Год назад
@@jubuttib If you are asking @keepwalking6041, he said the played the old Flanker in 1996. I played LOMAC about a year post release (2004?). I had to rebuy the original disc later since my drive did not read it any more. Same with the old Il2 FB. I played BS, before it was really called DCS, in 2008. I preordered it, and installed it on the release date. Some of the old stuff I left at my parent's place: cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/920981235537428510/1056871448582574131/IMG_20221226_104049035.jpg I don't miss 3.5", CDs and DVDs at all!
@jubuttib
@jubuttib Год назад
@@FlyAndWire Was indeed talking about Keep Walking's comment. Played Su-27 Flanker a fair bit as well, but skipped most of the others until got back into DCS, spent that time in civvie sims. Anyway yeah the point was just that "DCS" is barely 15 years old, so was asking if he was just being hyperbolic, or referring to the predecessors as well. =)
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