+aluisious the bleed air system has NOT worked fine for decades ! A recent British study found that up to 200,000 passengers per year were being made sick and pilots have been affected by toxic air from the engines which has left them nearly incapable of flying by their own assessment meanwhile the entire passenger compartment has left the passengers in a "zombie state", their words, not mine. "Air is drawn out of the compression section of the engine and cooled. It then enters the cabin, where it mixes with recirculated air that has passed through filters designed to remove bacteria and viruses. These “recirculated air” filters do not remove any fumes or vapours from the engine. So if engine oil or hydraulic fuel leaks, because of poorly designed or faulty seals, or even over-filled tanks, toxic chemicals can contaminate the air supply." Here are a couple of articles explaining how the bleed air system has NOT worked fine. www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/759562/Is-cabin-air-making-us-sick.html www.theguardian.com/business/2006/feb/26/theairlineindustry.uknews
@@statsredner4712 its a problem with the crappy plane built all wrong on a budget... not the fact that people fly fast for long period of time... never heard about stories of the sort with the sr-71.
F-35 Is way better at what it does, which is the best systems and EW capabilities, aka best for international operations/ anti terror etc (not war). Thus countries like Norway bought a lot of them. The countries that are VERY quality>quantity.
Oh Yes the F-35 is way better, So, incredible better that they are not in service today. The USA keep using the F-16s that are way older. Fucking Liars.
An F-22 and F-35 are designed to do different things. An F-22 is designed to shoot down other planes, while an F-35 is a Jack-of-all-trades- hence why the whole program is so damned expensive. Hopefully there will not be a plane like an F-35 for a long, long time.
Has the Pentagon ever developed anything that was a true value? The M1 Abrams, the F-22 Raptor, the F-35 Dodo Bird… are all examples of development projects tainted by incompetence and corruption. The Pentagon doesn’t have the discipline or integrity to develop mission specific weapons systems that represent value and quality.
Invincible meant the enemy couldn't track you at far distance, and you can shoot them down from unseen distance without the enemy ever knowing you are there
jeffrey exposito I never compared anything the United States has between Russia.I simply stated the hypoxia issue with the F-22 has yet to be resolved. Try to keep up.
It boggles my mind that we spent billions on developing the best fighter jet to date over 25 years ago and the yf 23 still has not been outclassed in any area of performance by any 5th gen fighters today. At 100million plus per aircraft they can't find a capable company to recreate the technology we already know works...the shape of the plane and wing design, the air inlet design and ceramic tiles, the vertical stabilizers fully rotating...the yf 23 would out perform the f35 at pretty much every living except vertical takeoff and short landing...alongside the F22 and F35 the yf 23 would be unstoppable.
More anti-military sentiment from 60 minutes, under cover of concern over US service members. They forgot to mention that oxygen system problems have been happening in all of the fighters, because they are spending more time flying at altitude than previously.
F-22 is expensive? Look at the An-225 it's one big expensive oversized monster cargo plane that is a big target to small fighter jets and china thinks they can build a fleet of them? Well if a war between china and America starts then I can't wait to see the Raptor turn the An-225 fleets into expensive wreckage
This thing got cancelled just after the T-50 had a couple of first flights. Also there aren't any sources that comment on specific capabilities of the thing at all so you can't really judge, unless you present sources.
They tested them in a dogfight at close range and they tested them against Su-27. Also they never said that they cancelled the program because of russian jets. They cancelled the F-22 because maintenance costs were to high. The dogfight problem extends only to the f-35 which is still in production. Even your own sources state that. ..
Rothschild Ish I'm having a hard time believing that the M1 Abrams is as shitty as you claim it to be. It's got it's flaws, and it might be glorified and in many cases, but that doesn't mean one should shit on it either. Both the Leopard 2 and the M1 Abrams are results from the MBT-70, I doubt that the Germans somewhat ended up making a so superior tank that it makes the Abrams useless, as that's just ridiculous. It's hard to tell the combat effectiveness in situation where armor is fighting against armor as we haven't had any battles like such since WII (major ones, while we had minor ones in wars like the Korean war). Do remember that these MBT's are being upgraded and new models are coming out, Abrams included.
that's cause we stomped the soviet union into oblivion...now all that's left is a pitiful Russia that can't even defend itself against our sanctions lol or stop us from routinely conducting military exercises right on its door-step or even stop our guided-missile cruisers routinely patrolling the black sea 'saving' drowing Georgian fisherman lol gtfoh ….game was over in the 90's.... when we killed the soviet-union *a true super power* you think a regional power like Russia is a worry..... y? cause lil putin has the same nuclear destructive capacity as lil Nikita had in 60s really? ...hmm #TridentJuncture 50k troops on your door step lol you propaganda may say different...but you ain't sh88 ...ur allied with Syria and iran for f8k sake lol
They have solved that problem on the aircraft and it has been used in combat missions since the problem was solved. The F-35's have had the same problem with it too. When new aircraft comes out there is bugs like that with them, but the services finally solve the problems.
@@Daniel_Martin777 That is correct and one could have been used by the Navy, and Marine Corps. They both was great aircraft and better than anything the Russians or Chinese have.
Eric Carmona it took long enough and cost us tax payers a shit ton of money. Now the Russians already have several planes that are better. For the record, I think the F22 is an amazing plane, I just think it’s a shame it took so much time and money to get right.
@@tannermeyers hold on buddy u said the Russians have a plane thats better? Com on man! There is no jet in the world that can compete with the f22. Any Russian jet that tries to compete against the f22 is dead meat..Russians tried to build there stealth jet pakfa t50 and had to cancel it because its complicated and to expensive. To have the best it takes money in this military business...
I had the privilege of getting a classified briefing on the F-22 and its capabilities; Afterwards, I was less impressed with the jets and more impressed with the pilot who gave us the briefing...
The "Easy Fix" -- Put oxygen tanks in the cockpit that provide the required flight time enough gas (O2) to carry out the mission and see if that is really the problem. If it's bad O2 -- come on people -- that's kind of like saying you can't find clean water when you're at Sparklets. Well,,,Maybe not Sparklets -- but, you get my drift.
ISN'T THAT LIKE THE MILITARY, YOU TALK AND YOU ARE LOOKING AT A NEW JOB...IF THE MILITARY DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THEIR MEN, TO HELL WITH THE MILITARY!!...AGAIN, IT DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE PLANE, BUT THE FILTERING CANISTER, WHICH SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE FIRST THING LOOKED AT!!...PILOTS HAVE TO LOOK OUT FOR THEMSELVES BECAUSE THEIR LEADERS DON'T WANT TO BE EMBARRASSED THAT'S AS BAD AS ANYTHING WE'VE HEARD AND SUCH A IN HOUSE COMMAND MUST BE VANQUISHED FOR THE SAFETY OF THESE PILOTS!!!...WE DISGUSTED WITH CONGRESS AND THESE MILITARY LEADERS WILLING TO RISK LIVES TO SAVE THEIR JOBS AND THIS EMBARRASSMENT THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PLANE!!!
Old story, problem solved. F-22 is still the king of the skies. We need to upgrade it to 2019 + standards and build more them to ensure our continued air superiority worldwide.
Grounding the F-22 again shouldn't be seen as an embarrassment, it should be seen as a necessary upgrade. When you come across something that's broken, you fix it and make sure it doesn't break again. Holding out on pride is irresponsible. I think there's a deeper cultural root in the AF/Military in general that is causing these issues.
is it? have you ever flown on an airliner? youre breathing air from the engines in that circumstance. The reason is the engines are used to compress air because as you go up, the ambient air pressure drops. The only way around it is either to carry compressed air tanks like scuba tanks, which will limit mission time, or carry a dedicated compressor system, taking up space and weight. Why do it when the engines already perform this function? This system has been used for a long long time. The f22 had a fault. Not good, but it has been fixed and the raptors are now in active service.
Jacques LeDisco it's not full stealth and they will only build limited numbers. Although I would agree it shouldn't be dismissed, it's not on the level of the American stealth fighters because we have the technological advantage by a long shot... minus this contaminated air issue.
Lets not forget that this video was recorded in 2012 and there are always always some fine tuning and this issue was found to be the charol air canister to filter the air, which had nothing to do with the plane!! Since then, much better canisters were made and resolved the issue, but again, anything you build has growing pains and is to be expected, this was on such example!!!
A pulse oximeter... well that'll solve all their problems. In all seriousness though, those canisters appear to be standard filters you'd see in a protective mask; assuming the picture used by 60 minutes was of the actual model of filter used. They've never been designed or intended for use in a high G, high pressure environment. They are fragile and sensitive to shock. I was always told that if you dropped one, you should immediately replace it. Also those filters will expel charcoal particles if you lightly tap them, so breathing in charcoal is par for the course. It was just assumed that breathing a little charcoal would be a far better alternative to breathing in unfiltered air in an NBC environment. With the pressure being exerted by the pilot's mask, those particulates probably become much more fine and get deeper into the lungs, creating a condition not unlike black lung disease. It seems to me that the likely point of failure is in the on board oxygen generator, specifically the filter from the engine. It is likely the filter is inadequate or malfunctions during certain maneuvers and could be allowing combustion by-products into the pilot's O2 supply. The flight surgeons need to take charge and start getting arterial blood gasses and labs from every pilot before and after every sortie. They should also consider placing waveform ETCO2 sensors in the pilots' masks for live monitoring of respiration and CO2 output. They should also consider a CO oximeter instead of a standard oximeter which could immediately indicate the presence of combustion by products in the pilots'blood stream which could only come from their inspired air.
The F-22, "the shining jewel", was the most expensive and now the F-35. What going to be the next high priced toy that sits on the sideline from what they say it's suppose to be for? It's fine though....plenty more Air Force members to cut to pay for their toys. The army is being effected now too.
F-35 is great, the worlds best at EW and accurate bombing with integrated systems. You have no clue. People don't build planes for war. Humanity is beyond war. They are built for INTOPS and such. Modern conflicts, where elite forces with elite tools can make a difference instead of "normal" average people with shitty tools and shitty mindets that only makes things worse. If they ever was a world war, it wouldnt matter at all who had what toys, it'd be over in 10 hours, and everything would be dead. Maybe apart from some fucking special forces in Norway and Alaska and some remote places.
I understand what you are saying, but I do have a clue when I am Air Force and me and many others have just been put on the chopping block to downsize. The program of downsizing that they are working on is still going to be re-evaluated for the next additional 4 years. So after I've put in my years of sacrifice to my family and whatever else comes and then they say we're going to downsize and if I get the boot, then I'm going to be a little ticked when I keep seeing money keep getting pushed to the "next toy" and then that toy just sits around to be replaced. I've already seen a few of my friends that were the ones picked for this downsize and they were all good workers.
Congressman Adam Kinzinger is actually defending the right of the two Air Force pilots to publically report on the issue. He is an Air Force pilot, and an American hero, a congressman that I truly respect. But I think you're right about General Schwartz, as he supports decommissioning the A-10, leaving the USAF without a mission capable aircraft for close air support. Read the official report at www.foia.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-120913-052.pdf
wtf are you talking about? I just watched the episode of Modern Marvels about the F-22 with that "baby seals" statement. The F-22 pilots were the ones that made that comment in reference to practice runs with 5(five) F-15s against one F-22. The F-22 dominated those F-15s.
Name an aircraft which never experienced growing pains? These two guys wanted to quit flying fighters and didn't know another way other than bitching on 60 Minutes. Bold career move. Let's see how it works out for them.
The f14 in my opinion was the best combat aircraft ever. Of course the pentagon rushed to scrap it till this day it will squash any modern day fighter in a dogfight. Meanwhile in a junkyard some were in Nevada.......
Yeah, those new D models were sexy. I live near NAS Fallon and you could hear the difference clearly when one of them took off! Shameful they were retired so soon after the Navy finally got the plane they needed.
could it be possible that nothing is wrong with the plane, but rather the plane is simply taking the human body to its limits? maybe we are trying to pet a beast that we just could not tame... it's possible right?
I hadn't heard about this but it got me thinking: If the F22 is suffering serious enough issues that 2 pilots have risked their careers to expose them, what does this mean for the much-touted F35 ? I've heard a fair share of criticism about the 35 but my alarm only kicked into high gear when I learned the strong arm tactics that the US government has been using to 'persuade' allies like Canada and Australia to blow their money on several squadrons. The 35 has been in development since 1992 (27 years), still lacks a single completely formed squadron and is THE most expensive weapons development platform. In the history of the entire planet. Anyone reading any amount of history has seen what befalls people putting their faith in the jack-of-all-trades approach - so the American tax payers and their pilots will likely have to be taught this lesson once more in any future combat - because there's some collective pride at stake ?
As Andy M says; it means nothing. The F-35 is a different aircraft with different problems that have for the most part been resolved. Australia is buying because they realise it's an excellent fighter. the RCAF want the F-35 too based on it's performance, not on US politics. The F-35 has been in development since 2001 and has several operational squadrons after a very average development time. Prior to that was just research into the technology and eventually the competition with prototypes (which don't have any of the fancy technology). People who know their history know that the "jack of all trades" approach is easily the best one i.e multi-role. That fact is reflected by the world's greatest militaries... all of which operate almost solely multi-role platforms, and their are no single role fighters in development.
@@dumdumbinks274 Appreciate your input man, we may be coming at this from different sides of the table but there's nothing wrong with hearing each other out. I'm reading that Israel has stood up it's own F35 operators, must be lot of people eager to hear their feedback on its performance - I'm guessing we'll all be reading about it sooner rather than later. Thanks again for your thoughts.
@@adamfrazer5150 No worries, I appreciate somebody who can still engage in a civil discussion when an opposing comment is made. If there's one thing to understand here it's that the F-35 is the first fighter developed completely in the age of social media and easily accessible information. The failures of the F-35 are well known and often exaggerated compared to the failures of older fighters and people end up looking at the now very successful older fighters and think they never had major issues or that the F-35 is unique for it's issues. At the very least you can be thankful the F-35 hasn't earned any derogatory nicknames like 'Lawn dart" (F-16).
@@dumdumbinks274 Much agreed man - any video at all seems to be rife with ppl hurling flames mounds of bile, over anything more than a spelling mistake - my philosophy is that if a person replies to something I've said and knows more about the topic, then I should take what they've said onboard and be reasonable - that's the best thing about the comments section. I think part of what prompted me to leave the original comment was that I'd just finished reading 'Top Gun' by the man who founded the program, Dan Pedersen and his opinion on the 35 added to my own. It's an absolutely amazing book if you get the chance I definitely recommend it. One of Pedersen's arguments against the 35 is that with current rules of engagement, the advanced radar and tracking is rendered null and void if pilots are forced to make visual confirmation. I suppose that applies to other planes with long range capabilities though.
+genius “kevin” polymath Well just keep in mind, the video is 3 years old, but unless the talk around the water cooler is wrong, the issue was solved early this year. I work for a company that supplies parts to Lockheed, we do not supply the O2 system, so i cant be 100%. The thing that pissed me off is, O2 systems have been around for 30+ years, ever since Jets were able to fly high/fast enough to need them. So it is most likely how Lockheed tried to tie it in, that is causing problem, and they have a history of taking "good ideas" and using them before they are properly vetted. For example, the F-35 uses on-board fuel to cool its computer systems, at the time it was a great idea, (although not a new one) as it eliminated extra weight of a dedicated cooling system. But what they did not account for is, the fusion computers they are using are essentially supercomputers, they run extremely hot, well a miscalculation was made, and the fuel is not cool enough to fully cool off of the computer system. That is the main reason why the F-35 fusion computer system does not work, the computers are only able to run at around 25% of capacity, due to a lack of cooling power. And since every square inch of that aircraft is already 100% in use, (as well as the plane already being heavier then it was designed to be) means there is no easy fix.
well its good if they solved it..so it may be lockheed's culture and policies that's the problem.a costly one if anyone asks me!..coz everyone interested is eager to see f-35's debut in actual combat..but by just being there it give USAF a great standing in ranks..
+Charles Green Yes and no, the F-22 is more like the scout. Since the F-22/F-35 use the same weapon systems, the only real difference is the F-22s sensor package, and enhanced stealth. What combat will look is like, a single F-22 leading a pack of F-35s, the F-22 will likely maintain its cover, (not firing itself) unless its directly challenged. The F-22 has a really cool ability to take control over missiles fired from another aircraft, and then use its superior sensors and stealth to guide the munitions onto target. So if you have a single F-22 leading the pack, and that sole F-22 is providing all the targeting data, taking direct control of all the munitions fired, there really is no difference between a pack of F-35s being led by a single F-22, and a pack of F-22s alone. And because our F-22s will only be taking control of munitions, not actually firing them, (unless they really need to) it will only make it that much more difficult to track that aircraft. Not only that but, our enemies will be focusing on the F-35s, not the F-22, the sole aircraft responsible for weapon guidance.
This post I should dated at 2010, any follow up or updates of any kind or this article is still running to what, make us question our military or what?
My $900 1996 Toyota Corolla (still) will give me cold or hot fresh air at the touch of a button. $340m for something that doesn't? Wtf? The Russians and Chinese must be very happy with this aircraft
No, but everything in works, does what it is designed to and it did not cost what? $320,000,000. Or so. So all that money and things do not work. My Toyota does
Yes. My antiquated car, unlike this plane it seems, does what it designed to do. and meets the criteria needed for my comfort and indeed, in certain circumstances, survival. Simple things, like fresh air when I need it to stay awake and conscious. Stuff like that.
Whose side are you on? Humans have known for hundreds i of years that if you go high in the sky you will need stuff called Oxygen. Over a trillion $'s and these guys forgot that? Oh......P38's had it, it took 125 or so days to develop that baby.747's can even do it..And yes, my old heap does have through flow ventilation,fresh, warm, cold, hot recirculated...It was what was needed and adequate, And fitted. Good car by the way.
This stunning and awesome video of reporting of the F22 and the Airforce.... is brought to you by Viagra.... hahahahahahah I couldn't stop laughing when i heard that hahahahaha
geez, fix the f'in plane!!! give the pilot a self contained breather, then put sensors on the planes breather, let him fly an hr then land an collect the data from the plains breather. when you see that the oxygen is too little or is contaminated then fix the system, end of story
That's what I was thinking, -like an odor or offgassing from the plastics or other materials in the breathing apparatus/mask etc. It is a known fact that smells can make people sick/noxious.
America must make a f 22 raptor with an artificiale robot on that plane then te Can also tink for them selfs because a computer tinks faster as a humen and react faster with a Qauntum computer on bord ,those robots AI can take over other enemy planes and distroy them.
These men are terrible soldiers and I hope they were court marshaled, when you join the military you knowingly say that you now belong to the government, so what if there's health risks, they signed up for that, terrible soldiers
I think people like YOU were in the Trenches of Belgium about 100 years ago, YOU shot young men in the head for wanted to go home, for refusing to fight for having independent thoughts.
do you guys even have any military background? Because if you did you would know that they were way out of line by going to 60 minutes, it would have been more acceptable if they voiced their concerns to their CO's and refused to fly, if they don't want to risk their lives and want to go tattle to the media, then they are immature and in the wrong line of work, because the military is a completely different lifestyle than a civilian
Nolan Ball Damn you are absolutely laughable. It's a soldiers duty to go against unjust orders, its a soldiers duty to speak out when there are INTERNAL HEALTH RISKS, its a soldiers duty to uncover injustice. Why the fuck do you think people are soldiers? To blindly fight for a shitty government? Wake the fuck up. People are not soldiers, they are warriors. In Norway the term soldier has been coined, and they now call their forces Warriors. Norway has always had some of the best SOFs in the entire world, maybe the best, and now they finally get the correct term. They are MENT to disobey unjust orders, orders that kill civilians, orders that go against humanity. You become a WARRIOR to fight for whats good and right in the world, not follow bullshit corporate or government orders. This is even taught in the US. in leadership schools, military academys etc, always taught to disobey unjust orders, speak out against bullshit, be that corporate influence or health risks flying a plane.
The solution is to totally redesign the system that takes O2 to the pilots. It seems to me to be ridiculous to take air which has gone through the engine and then attempt to scrub it for pilot air supply. How difficult can it be to sample air delivered to the pilot and then find contaminants ? How difficult can it be to provide clean air with adequate oxygen concentration ? Their solution is to give pilots a cheap ass pulse ox ?? Give me a F..ing BREAK !!
+thruid3 Umm... easy to criticize, but you dont understand the system let alone stand to make suggestions to improve it. Its ridiculous to take air thats gone through the engine? well how else would you do it? Do you realize the air you breathe on an airliner has been fed to the cabin from the engine? The reason is because the air is so thin at altitude it has to be compressed from the compressor section of the engine and then bled off for other purposes, such as cabin air. The only other way to do it is to carry compressed air tanks with a finite supply of air. Doesnt work.
Where do you think toxic substances are coming from if not from exhaust gases ? Are you not aware that oxygen is available in the environment of the plane ? The options you have cited for oxygen supply are not complete. Have you ever seen the devices carried by people with COPD ? The little ones are not O2 tanks, they are oxygen concentrators. The tech is proven and been around for a long time. That is a much more simple solution than taking gas from a fighter jet and scrubbing it. I have 30 years as MD in emergency medicine. These pilots are likely suffering from hypoxia. A likely scenario is hemoglobin being rendered inactive by CO. Apparently the military does not want to reveal the reason. They would probably be deeply embarrassed if it was.
thruid3 You can be as medical as you like, doesnt sound like you have knowledge of engineering. There are multiple breathing systems that have been used over the years. Some older systems used pressurized oxygen cylinders to feed the pilots above certain altitudes, because oxygen becomes effectively UN-available due to low air pressure. Which is exactly the reason why your idea wont work. The cockpit is a small place. I dont know if you have ever sat in a jet, but its not roomy. The volume of air is very finite and it must be air conditioned. What oxygen are you going to concentrate with your device in this environment? A fighter pilot can do the equivalent of 5 hour gym workout in 40 mins during a mission. Thats a lot of oxygen which is simply not available without pressurization. Newer systems use bleed air from the COMPRESSOR section of the engine, not the exhaust gas. The engine is after all a giant air pump. This has been used on airliners for decades. They then use an on board oxygen generator, which is probably similar to the oxygen concentrator you describe, however using bleed air provides a constant replenishing air supply at high altitudes without the problems of dangerous compressed air cylinders which have risk of explosion or, low pressure air cylinders which have a very limited capacity and will force an aircraft to lower altitudes once empty. The system the f22 uses is not brand new and has been successfully used in several other aircraft. The f22 problem has since been solved and the f35 is using a similar bleed air/on board generator system with no problems.
It will work for the same reason that the current system is capable of compressing air which is brought from a compressor which is incorporated into the engine. I am suggesting using compressed air from a compressor which has no relationship to the engine and manipulating the partial pressure of oxygen using a tried and true technology. There is absolutely NO reason why it will not work except for MONEY. That's it. The ONLY reason. Those pilots are suffering CLASSIC signs of hypoxia which is due to one of two things with the only assumption being that the cardiorespiratory system of the affected pilots are not impaired, and I doubt any of them have COPD or CHF. Either the partial pressure of oxygen is too low or hemoglobin is being rendered inactive by a toxin such as CO. I am not an engineer but I don't need to be one to diagnose this problem.
thruid3 LOL diagnosing a medical response to an engineering problem is not helpful. Once again, engineers have already solved this problem which was not present on other aircraft using the same system. There are actually several reasons why your suggestion is once again impractical and ineffective. packaging and complexity are a few, that is besides being more expensive than utilizing an already available system that has to exist anyway. bleed air is used for more than one function, including feeding the pilots g suit and pressurizing the cockpit, spooling up the other engine for starts and emergencies etc. What would the compressor be driven by? would it be electric? Then besides space for a SUBSTANTIAL compressor housing and impeller and electric motor, (because it would have to be capable of pressurizing very thin air) you would need a tank to hold the pressurized air. Would it be driven by exhaust or bleed air? in which case you need plumbing, regulators and control valves. You might also need another cooling system since air heats up when its compressed. So you have taken up a lot of space and added a lot of weight and cost and an additional maintenance and failure point, when you already have to use bleed air for several other systems on the aircraft. so actually yes, there is many reasons besides money why they dont do it.
The problem seemed to be nothing more than some pilots just couldn't handle the high G force. Get those bodies that have better DNA to handle with the extreme maneuverability that equipped with these awesome birds
US deadliest war plane is eating their pilots...... which often claimed the best jet ever made...lol US lol....asked help from Russia to solved the problem before you lost all your pilots....
