Fandom's Creepy Obsession With Torture 

If your comment starts with "to be fair" and proceeds to ignore the obvious misogyny at play in these tropes, your comment will be deleted. Play Devil's Advocate somewhere else and rid us of your stupidity.

I remember when season 1 of the owl house aired, a lot of people in the fandom said that they hated Luz, because she was "annoying". However they started calling her character arc "brilliant" when in season 2-3 she got traumas and started sulking a lot. They called that character development, but that's bullshit. She HAD her development in 1 season. It's just not to fandom's taste cause Luz wasn't miserable all the time.

Whenever i hear catra say "I love you. I always have" makes me think. "Ah yes, tearing the fabric of space and time apart and being directly responsible for the near destruction of your world out of pettiness is LURVE."

I like how you called out how the media only uses trama for shock value. In real life trauma and mental health isn't flashy so they can't represent it properly. I never understood why everyone thought seeing the main character constantly suffer was good storytelling. It's why for a while I stopped liking Spiderman. I want to see Peter happy but stories keep making him miserable. I thought"This is making me think being a hero is nothing but being sad."

This video helped me realize something about myself. There was stage of my life where I immensely enjoyed dark angsty fanworks that treated my faves as life's punching bag. It was also a time when my mental health was the worst it's ever been, due to a sucky job and living circumstances. Now that I'm in a much better place (both physically and mentally), that kind of fic doesn't really appeal to me like it did before... and I'm only _now_ putting two and two together and realizing that those things may be connected.

As a person who relates to Catra with how destructive my trauma made me I despise how the show (and fandom) tried to make it something good and essentially glorify it. In fact, I can acknowledge that this kind of behaviour is bad so I stay out of romantic relationships because I know I'm not suited for it and it allows me to spend time with my friends and myself to improve mentally because romantic relationships don't magically fix people!!!

Having Korra resent being the Avatar would've been SUCH a great storyline! They lightly touched on that with Aang and his story but being able to dive deeper into that and the weight of responsibilities you didn't ask for is something so relatable. It would have given her story so much more emotional depth and grounded her story more as it leaned into the difference between her and Aang.

I noticed a similar situation with Winx Club, particularly with Aisha who gets the brunt of brutal and torture moments in the show, the second being Flora being attacked constantly and they happened to be Black and Mestiza-Latina coded. Not a good look. They never seem to catch a break in comparison to the other girls

I do not understand how people like 'Hurt no Comfort'. The only reason I like angst AT ALL, is because I like watching the recovery process! I like watching a character's loved ones all come together and shower them with affection and reassurance that they're safe and won't ever go through that again if they can help it. I fucking ADORE seeing characters light up with hope and joy at seeing their friends and family coming to rescue them! I get that you can't have comfort without employing hurt, but having nothing but hurt...is just fucking upsetting. It's not fun. It makes the story feel pointless; why is this here if nothing is going to get fixed and we're all just here to be miserable? It's baffling to me... Also with that kink segment, I have a friend who really likes Catra and she not too long ago just got out of a toxic and verbally abusive relationship. Starting to think there's a worrying connection there...

That sequence from 3:49 to 4:10 genuinely feels like a comedic overplaying of how far the character is falling bit you'd see in a sitcom or looney tunes, but in the context of a show which takes physical harm more seriously this is dragged out for no good reason.

Thank you for saying this, black women have been saying this about media FOREVER. Its so apparent, especially when there are stories featuring black women NOT being degraded and abused. Regardless of the genre, its “unrealistic” whenever black women are existing without pain or servitude. Its so sickening

It's so true. Fans LOVE to read angst and hurt with no type of comfort whatsoever and I never understood that. To me it always felt like a safe way to emotionally self harm :/

What makes me feel especially disgusted with the handling of Korra’s character is that I *know* for a fact that the two white men in charge of those show can write a trauma based story that’s both respectful and doesn’t ej*culate all over the traumatic scene itself. I don’t even need to get into Zuko and how ATLA handled both the scene where Ozai burns his face by directing the camera away from the scene entirely or how his character arc in the show was about proactively dealing with that trauma instead of lingering on it like a sad sack of potatoes. LoK provides a one-to-one reference with other characters getting the crap beaten out of them and having the camera pan away or cut out entire before the inciting injury. You don’t see Lin getting smacked with her own cable and scarring her, and the camera pans away the moment Tenzin starts getting the ever loving crap beaten out of him by the Red Lotus. Two light skinned characters were given infinitely more respect when it came to their individual ass beatings than Korra was ever given. That tells me at least one person on staff knows how to write an ass beating without lingering on every painful groan or agonized twitch and can write trauma in a way that isn’t just Cut My Life into Pieces. They *knew* how to do this, and still *chose* to torture a dark-skinned, Native woman strictly for the sake of doing it.

On your description of what actual depression is like, I think the closest thing to that I’ve ever seen to that in a show is Scrooge McDuck at the beginning of the first season finale of DuckTales. He completely isolated himself from his family, eats exclusively pizza, never washes his one shirt, and wallows around on the floor doing nothing. It’s not all that fun to watch, and I think that’s the point. It’s only after another character makes him realize that he needs his family in his life is he really able to come back from where he was. The show doesn’t go super deep into the long-term effects after the episode is over, but it’s an interesting contrast with the misery that most people talk about with these shows.

genuinely that scene with korra in that cave was so uncomfortable like jesus christ... I watched it when I was twelve and I literally had to put that series down for days before starting at a new episode (cuz I was committed to not stopping a series even if I hated it lolll) and the horrible thing is that this type of thing INFLUENCES its viewers. as an aspiring writers, I end up dumping quite frankly a lot of my own feelings of sadness and angst which I only amplify because I've seen shows like legend of korra and to a lesser extent the owl house which almost... idk glorify this sort of trauma?? and yeah overtime I've had to be like "ok this is not healthy" and stop doing that suffering is not fun! and watching people suffer is also not fun!!!

Thank you for this video. I've always felt uncomfortable with bad critiques of so many female characters essentially being "she didn't suffer enough for me to want anything good to happen to her, therefore I think she hasn't earned anything". I think some people have this weird desire to see confident women get taken down a peg, and they project it onto female characters so they can enjoy them being tortured while defending it as "character development"

Women of color as well as children of color unfortunately. I remember when I was 14 and deep into the first and only fandom I ever got involved in, Camp Camp, the way a very loud minority of people would write and draw the main character Max (who is Indian and also 10 years old) being grotesquely miserable was nothing short of horrifying - I wrote a script abt it once but never posted it as I concluded getting involved in fandom discourse would be severely damaging to my mental health. :/ Being in that environment is absolutely horrible for your mental health if you happen to be someone that relates to the character that's the subject of this kind of misery porn, because it means you're repeatedly being sent the message that *this is the fate that's waiting for you.* And when people who create this shit claim they as well relate to the character, I have to just go "How do you not see that as a massive red flag??!" As well as the notion that if a character has trauma then it absolutely has to be the most horrific trauma possible - it's established that Max has absent parents and the amount of people theory-crafting the shit out of every small detail they could get their hands on to insist his parents are physically abusive was disconcertingly large. Part of me wonders if the addiction to things like grand stakes in stories bleeds over to other aspects of storytelling where people who consume media like a drug need everything to be at its most extreme otherwise it has no effect on them. He can't just be sad because his parents didn't come to see him, NO, they must beat him every night!

It disturbs me how a fetish so many people have to see women of color especially brutalized has infected so many shows. This trauma porn making so many people think the best thing to do to their characters is make them go through unimaginable pain just "to see what they're really made of". Hanging out with people in fandom and seeing them make characters and have no qualms calling their writing a trauma baptism disturbed me. To have to constantly call them out on having an angst obsession and pointing out how they could make their writing be better, having a character arc without the mountain of angst just to get them to actually have a balance in the mood of their writing.

Lily is the only reason I know what Fandom is up to.

Lily and Mikaila... thank you. You don't know how long I have waited for someone to bring up this topic and go over it in detail. It was very uncomfortable to watch the more it would happen on screen and I was never sure if this was going to continue happening or if it was going to just be something that would be talked about. I realy enjoy the fact that laid out how unnecessarily graphic this was. Also... love that bit about Korra's mindset and how the world made her deal with her problems because of her status.

If anyone tells me Catra abusing Adora is hot I am backing away fast. Even if some of it appealed to some kind of kink I would hope empathy would trump anything else. At least I would hope.

I just broke up with someone who acted exactly the way Luz does in the owl house, and I can say with absolute certainty that Lily is 100% correct with what she’s saying. Luz should not be treating people the way she does, and for the writes themselves to use it as an excuse to engage people and make the story interesting is terrible. If they needed something to make the story engaging to viewers they should have just made Luz determined to save her found family because she wants to and she cares about them just as much as they did whenever she was in danger. Hell, they could have just made Luz’s palisman hatch by having her realize that the thing she’s wanted was to keep the people around her safe and happy no matter what. That would’ve fit Luz better and not made her become the awful character she is in season 2B and 3.

I feel like her WHOLE desire was that she IS and WANTED to be the Avatar. She had no other desires and that was always kinda weird to me. Aang hurt Katara at the beginning on the show and was so traumatized that he didn't fire bend until he met the literal spirits of fire and learning its true meaning

I used to do that... I used to write sexual, physical, mental abuse because I thought it was going to help me. I thought that if I controlled it, that the past would have less hold on me. But I learned that it was actually keeping me stuck in the past. I was awful to everyone because I kept it in me, instead of letting it go. If I write that kind of content, it doesn't erase what I've been through, and it doesn't make me feel better about it. I just felt awful all the time. So one day, I decided "I don't wanna write these characters anymore. I don't wanna write that kind of story anymore." When I realized the damage I was doing to myself, I knew I needed to do something else. Now I just wanna write a happy home life of a found family, because that's where I want my mind to be. What we create DOES affect us and shows where our mind is. That's how I know that a lot of creators have more personal work to do. I loved this video, Lily and Mikaila. I know it was heavy subject material, but it needed to be said. Thank you.

Honestly, you are absolutely right and you should say it. In this period of isolation after a terminated long and toxic relationship, I find myself yearning for parts of my old relationships, and when I do, I ask myself if they were really that bad. And god, they were THAT bad. These shows that glamorize these abusive, cruel, manipulative, deceitful relationships are not giving me ( an adult lmao ) or kids good lessons regarding relationship boundaries, self respect, the importance of understanding and caring about yourself enough to recognize that you are being mistreated, and more.

I'm getting flashbacks to Heavy Rain having drawn out sexualized torture scenes for it's only playable female character, while none of the men ever got this kind of treatment. Did i mention this game was developed by a misogynistic creep who made a nude 3D-Model of an actor against his will?

Lily laid out the real reasons trauma is compelling in story to a normal writer who shouldn't be put on a list. But the reason that trauma is compelling to the writers already on the list, is because they like seeing it happen to female protagonists, especially if they're dark-skinned. Lily made the correct remark that the traumatic event itself isn't all that important, but the cretins belonging to the torture porn coven would strongly disagree with that. They place the importance on making the scene of the traumatic event as dramatic and hard to watch as possible. The work required to handle the aftermath of the traumatic event, in the following act, is not given the respect it deserves and requires. It's basically pissed away, in favour of making the protagonist nothing but a mannikin for all the bruises, cuts, scabs, bandages, blood, and the 1000-yard stare, as they put the character into catatonia, or give them some other kind of very passive trauma response. And those responses aren't un*realistic* as a trauma response, but 1. This is a story, not real life. A *passive* trauma response doesn't work in a show, because the last thing that non-vent media is supposed to be, is passive. But, back to the members of the torture porn coven; 2. These creeps don't make the protagonist respond to the trauma in this way to make it realistic. They make em go through that, because it is one of the more concerning responses to trauma, and the trauma never stops when you're a dark skinned female protagonist in they like torturing girls.

Whenever this topic comes up, I always think back to Bojack Horsemen. It wasn't the origin of this kind of brain rot, but it was the first time I really noticed it. I would see people saying shows should be more like Bojack, and I was always of the thought that Bojack should be the only Bojack. It's a fine show, but the levels it tackles metal health and relationship issues can be really draining and not to be handled lightly, especially in a show for children. The worst of it was when I saw people saying that Bluey, the show for actual babies, was sadder then Bojack. Because the funny dog show having a scene where a child is sad about her dad seemingly not liking her anymore is totally on the level of the adult comedy where the main character tries to kill himself multiple times. I fucking hate modern fandom

hey, I'm the one who wrote the anon ask about "the way her depression arc is written is very reckless for an impressionable audience". Thought it was dope you put a lot of my points in the video! This was SO well done. I think you're one of the first people to talk about this problem in fandom on a large platform, and I thank you for it. The way people watch these shows is sick and so unhealthy. I'm really glad you're publicly kink-shaming these sick fucks. I will never stop mourning the loss of potential that was The Owl House. Such a great s1+2a, everything after completely fell apart. It's honestly shocking - I completely missed the part where Luz implies suicide in s3e1 that you pointed out. Absolute character assassination from the writing team. She Ra was so hard to get through as a viewer who watched as it aired, as they continued making Catra more and more irredeemable as the seasons went on, then decided to forgive her in the end. I was happy that it was gay rep in the moment, but it never sat right with me and these days I don't look back fondly on the show AT ALL.

that one tweet saying "name one character who suffered more than her, i'll wait". has always rubbed me the wrong way lol like omg why do u care so much that character have trauma?

I used to like a lot of those stories because there was just something about watching a deeply hurt character and find love and support. However when a lot of stories started enjoying hurting her instead of the recovery process and that’s when I started getting weary of that

As the oldest sibling who grew up with an ACTUALLY traumatized mom, I can say that there is NOTHING glamorous about it! Nothing "entertaining" about watching your mom have a breakdown over worrying that she's becoming like her mom before her. Nothing fun about it at all! More like genuine horror if you ask me. Horror as in terrified for her. A true drawing back of the curtains moment. That would be more realistic to portray. Not the glamorization of trauma I keep seeing everywhere. Sadly, I wrote a lot of stuff like this as a kid -- well, not AS bad as the examples in the video above -- and now that I'm older I'm working more and more on realistic, actually helpful portrayals that can at the very least teach the readers how to respond in a certain situation where the right response is crucial.

I feel like it also overlaps with people having trouble writing so called “strong female characters”. When it comes to Korra at least. It reminds me a lot of the Tomb Raider reboots. The devs thought the best way to demonstrate Lara Crofts strength is to put her through a lot of misery and pain, so we can admire her perseverance, I guess. Someone should have told them to give her a personality instead.

The only show that I know/remember that did trauma "correctly" is Robin from from teen titans getting night terrors and PTSD from thinking Slade is still alive

I came back here to comment again because the response to the trailers for the Mario movie of all things are pissing me off and it reminded me of some of the things said this video. I am legitimately CONCERNED about the number of people who seem to think that Bowser intimidating and torturing Luigi when he is literally a captive in the trailer is "romantic" or "sexual tension" or whatever bullshit they're trying to call it these days. And this kind of response is fucking EVERYWHERE. It just feels so disgusting to see how something like that (in a kid's movie, mind you) is being sexualized and swept under the rug as "not that bad" all while a lot of those same people are getting their testicles in a twist because Peach is wearing pants. It just goes to show that creeps and weirdos will play whatever kind of mental gymnastics they can to justify the creepy and gross things they like and how there's really not enough people calling this shit out because of trying to be "polite" or "keeping the peace" (And yes, I've heard people use those exact words as to why they think this sort of thing can't be/shouldn't be confronted directly.). The standards for this sort of thing NEED to be higher.

This might be a bit unrelated, but I saw this quote on twitter and it came back to me when you were talking about catradora. "do you actually love the enemies to lovers trope or do you just like the idea of someone loving you at your worst."

I'm right now imagining Korra as the Avatar equivalent of a cranky old man sitting on a farm porch screaming "get off mah lawn" at anyone who comes near

The worst thing is when fandom decideds that they have to brutally torture a character who writes actually treated alright. The amount of Louisa from enchanto being bloody and brutally beaten I’ve seen by chance is disgusting

You aren't supposed to be happy about the bad stuff, you're supposed to be happy that the bad is over and the character is getting better. Trauma isn't fun, it's upsetting. I've cried actual tears when characters I like are going through stuff, and cried tears of happiness when they work through it. If there's no recovery then what's the point?

As someone who has delt with a lot of mental problems in my life I HATE how fandoms tend to fetishize it! It's not cute/romantic to NEED people verbalizing how much they care about you to stop you from spiraling downward in self doubt/deprecation. Wanting to hide alone under the blankets for days at a time to avoid life isn't cute. Needing others to validate your existence isn't healthy! Letting people walk all over you because you're scared they'll leave your life if you don't isn't healthy! I could go on & on but I'll stop there for my own sanity.

I would LOVE to have a scene like that of Catra’s love confession, but instead of a “I love you too” it’s a complete “LOVE? IS THIS WHAT YOU CALL LOVE?” verbal beat down. But it likely won’t happen so I’ll just put it on the “Hopefully I’ll Write it Someday Maybe Probably Not” to do list.

I almost dropped TOH for this reason. The only reason I forced myself to bear through it was to finish it. The ending is soon, and I just want to be done with the show. As you already said, Luz already had a trauma response, and the way they dragged out her depression without intervention is just disgusting. I recently got out of a friendship with someone who acted just like Luz. He asked for advice and someone to talk to, so I provided it, but then he treated me like I was nothing. He only talked to me when he wanted to use me as someone to provide an echo chamber for him. When I didn't do that, he dropped me immediately. He then decided to contact me again when he wanted to d!3. I tried to help him out of it, but I couldn't help him much. It wore on me so much knowing this person would k!ll themself if I didn't say the right thing or if I abandoned him, but I just couldn't deal with it anymore. He constantly refused to get professional help, only opting to talk to me whenever things "got worse." Luz used to be my 2nd favorite character in the series, but since the 2nd half of season 2, I only have disdain for her. I get where she's coming from. She feels guilty, but with the amount of people who are there for her and are constantly trying to help her, it feels like she's just ignoring them until she wants to benefit from them. It's not healthy, it's not good, and it's not realistic seeing how her friends haven't called her out yet, and how her behavior may magically disappear after she "feels understood" by her Mom. Also, "feeling understood" would NOT stop a behavior like that because it wasn't CAUSED by that. Her behavior was caused by her guilt of unintentionally helping Belos almost commit genocide and making the lives of everyone "worse." If that behavior actually hasn't gone away, that'd be more realistic and I hope someone calls her out on it in the final episode.

I used to be into My Hero Academia in its early seasons, but this is exactly what made me drop it really quickly. I just didn't want to see children get tortured.

As a young teen watching Korra get destroyed always felt ODD AS FUCK, now I completely understand why. It's because the writers are "ODD AS FUCK". When dudes get the tar beaten out of them they just imediately go bed time but with Korra it was always so drawn out and was exhausting to watch man

If I have to endure the "character gradually breaks down and eventually snaps in either a fantasy rage boss or an attempt" arc can I also have the "character is hospitalized and properly medicated while also practicing new coping mechanisms and building a support system and now fosters kittens with their husband and adopted children" too please Preferably with the latter being longer, because that would be even more realistic

I've got a bit of an interesting viewpoint on this A lot of things tend to be a reflection of ourselves or our trauma I've kinda recognized the reason why my favorite Dnd class I obsessively play is paladin because of my deep rooted religious trauma And as much as I like to put my characters I write through hell and back a lot of the time It means nothing if they don't get those better moments, those better times, those better tides so to speak And a trap I feel like that really ensares a lot of writers, is that endless trauma pit. Not giving the characters time to breathe, and relax a bit

Your point about not Isolating yourself during poor mental health is something that Absolutely Needs to be said more. I cannot begin to fully elaborate on just how much better you start to feel when around loved ones. For viewers who's response to that point was ' Well my family is WHY my mental health is so bad ' Your loved ones Do Not have to be your family or people you're actually in a relationship with. When I moved out of my mothers house to live with my dad he showed me the local game store and encouraged me to go there twice a week to play a card game I like. As a result I made a small group of friends I now see bi-weekly and chat with every now and then on discord in-between. That Alone has helped my mental health significantly. Are my symptoms cured entirely? No, thats not how recovery works, but it gave me consistent group to give and receive platonic love which made Being Myself much easier. If you Can find a group of friends or people with common interests you can just gush with on a scheduled basis I can promise you It Helps More Then You Think. It will not make your problems go away, but it will help bandage them so You can work on making them go away / become a manageable thing.

As someone whose current writing project has a character coping with a deep loss (guy character in this case), I am so glad someone points out how the torture-pronn stuff is a creepy fixation. Like for real everybody, it's up there with 'fridging love interest to motivate the other person' in terms of crap I can't stand.

And all this character torturing has led some people to believe 'trauma' equals character development when it should mean the complete oposite

I originally commented on the season 3 owl house video about how I felt about Luz’s trauma response and I wanted to say I’m sorry you’re right about it not being healthy and thank you for bringing this up. Your videos really help me confront issues I have with myself and my projection onto fictional characters and I shouldn’t be doing that. Thank you again for talking about this I know it wasn’t a comfortable subject to discuss

I was really into fandom when i was 14, so where my friends which just lead to a circle jerk of the same disgusting topes. I had to distance myself from them to get my grades up. Honestly I've never been more thankful that i studied because by the time I got back to them with an outside perspective i could see just how toxic the content we consumed was. I've never gotten into fandom again, it seems kinda exhausting. (Sorry for broken English it's not my first language)

For me, 'Hurt no Comfort' is a red flag screaming 'garbage story do not touch'. If something bad is going to happen to characters I like, I want them to be rescued from it and given the care and therapy and everything else they need so they can be not-miserable by the end of the story! If I wanted to read things about people suffering with no end or help in sight I'd check the news and shit, I came here for escapist fantasy dammit! 😡

There’s an important element of psychology that a lot of these stories miss. That the fans desperate for their sexy torture porn or “deep storytelling” boners keep missing in their arm chair diagnosing or angst torturing: The diagnosis doesn’t matter. The trauma doesn’t matter. They may be able to help figure out your patient, but what actually matters to the patient AND the psychologist is identifying the behaviour. Which fans often miss. They don’t care about the Illnesses, the disorders, the real potential these stories can have - tell a psychologist that your patient has BPD and they’ll respond “ok, now tell me something useful” because it is extremely diverse in how it shows. What these people want, and have always wanted, is the “I can fix him” or the “I can make him worse”. To them it might be realistic to have such an unhealthy character, and the reason they like it is because it doesn’t force them to realise they’re unhealthy and should do better. They just want commiseration and catharsis from torturing characters for the sake of getting off, or self harm.

It's so odd and concerning. Says a lot about people who want/have to see that...appreciate the honesty. Bothers me the culture of those who enable anything as long as its cartoon as if that won't bleed into our psyches since we consume that very media. I hope things get more genuine

I don't make lengthy comments online since I normally stick to a policy of "Lurk, don't interact". Hearing what Lily had to say for this video has helped me decide to break that rule just this once. I'll try to keep this brief because I don't want this to turn into a wall of text, and I want to keep my personal life separate from Internet life. I am a high-functioning autistic man who didn't learn about his condition until he was 16. In my high school days, I would always withdraw myself from other NT people and only hung out with other ND kids and my Special Ed teachers. I would always lose my temper whenever a NT kid would do something innocuous because my brain trained me to think that everyone else would pick on me if given the chance. Thus I believed "Do unto others before they do unto you", because I thought it would keep me safe. In hindsight, all that did was alienate me from other people that would have otherwise accepted me. Not helping matters is that I would often harm myself if I didn't make an A or A+ grade in my classes. Part of me wants to blame pop culture osmosis for this since I would always see parents on TV discipline their kids for failing their classes. I'll admit that part of the problem was my exposure to the Japanese Anime I saw at the time. Back then, I thought that shutting yourself off from people when you were angry and upset was something cool and admirable. Even when I went to see a therapist, I never opened myself up because of the misguided belief that talking to people about your mental health would give you a one-way ticket to the insane asylum. I'm in a much better place now then I was before because I took a massive leap of faith and talked about my feelings. I have a much better understanding of my emotions than I did as a teenager. Whenever I work around my house, I listen to only a few select people, like Todd in the Shadows, Bob Chipman, James Stephanie Sterling, and Lily Orchard. I'm glad to say that I attribute part of my growth as a person to you, Lily. TL;DR - Your video was something I needed to hear, Lily. From the bottom of my heart, thank you. 😀 (Now, if you'll excuse me. I'm going to hide in my bunker to keep me safe from the hobgoblins on KiwiFarms.)

The only nice thing about the many disturbing tags on Ao3 is you can filter that nonsense out of the fics you want to find. No other fan fiction site has that good of a filtering system. I love now having to step on land mines and pray the fan work in about to consume might secretly have multiple chapters dedicated to one of my big triggers Edit: spelling

And a surprise to absolutely no one, anime is the absolute worst offender of this. I vividly remember someone uploading a video comparing the Japanese and the English voice acting of the screams of a teenage girl getting her ribs and organs crushed to compare the quality of the sounds. Do yourselves a favor, don’t look it up. Both sound horrifying and triggering for obvious reasons. Isolating myself and avoiding others is one of the worst and hardest coping mechanisms that I ever had to work through. I am so grateful that I live with someone that I am comfortable being open about my anxiety and depression, therapy has definitely helped too. One of the most crucial things that I’ve learned about myself is that whenever my mental health is at its lowest, forcing myself to be in social situations has benefited me so much in getting out of that low point. Because it was my depression telling me that no one would want to see me, no one would want to talk to me and that I deserve to be alone because I am a terrible person who deserves to feel bad. But being around other people (family, friendly coworkers, peers) gave me tangible proof that those thoughts were irrational and Simply. Not. True. Talking to someone has saved me multiple times.

Thank you so much for accurately expressing what depression is like.

as a teen i remember reading a "hurt/comfort" fanfiction about one of my favorite cartoon characters at the time, but the author was still updating it. they promised that things would get better, but as i continued to read, things only kept getting worse and worse. people that say "it's just fiction" dont realize that your emotions have a hard time separating fiction from reality, (especially as an adolescent). every time i thought about my favorite character, i thought about that fic, which would then feed into unhealthy behaviors i had picked up as a result; and considering that i had built up my entire personality around that character at the time, it just became more difficult for me to separate fiction from reality.

Ugh, this was so refreshing to hear. It is absolutely EXHAUSTING seeing fandom just be so damn eager to absolutely torture their faves. Ever since Rise of the TMNT: the movie, it seems like all fans wanna do is write about Leo (and sometimes the other turtles) getting tortured/trapped/mutilated/killed by the Kraang or just write about them being depressed without actually doing anything interesting with the idea. The most popular RotTMNT fic on AO3 features Leo wearing a shock collar and being forced into the battle nexus and then into being a Slade’s apprentice-inspired (author’s words) assassin. It could have been interesting seeing Leo still try to fight back even in the worst circumstances and finding small ways to rebel. But nope, 20+ chapters of torture porn it is :/ it is just SO goddamn frustrating and I can’t even go to the RotTMNT tag on AO3 anymore cause of this shit.

Tbh I like angst but I also like the recovery/comfort that after it

honestly I'd be more concerned about the edgy, perverted 35 year olds than the edgy, perverted teenagers. this might just be anecdotal but as far as I could tell every non-ace (me and 1 of my oldest friends are ace) teenager I knew was perverted in some way or another and half of the teenagers (including me and that 1 friend) were edgy. this was the case all the way from 14 to 18. every single one of them grew out of the perverted stuff by the time they hit 20. the edginess is another matter but that's down to like 10-20%. when teens are edgy and perverted they still have time to grow up and change. when adults are, somethings broken. they've failed to grow up in some way.

You're saying what really needs to be said today. This video is gonna help me write a lot better, I feel like. I've got a character who's been put through the ringer a few times and while I always had them on the path to recovery, I guess this video sorta puts my thoughts into words. I appreciate it.

This video taught me something important, that being: I can't just force trauma all at once. Sure, i like being bleak and sad about things, but i want to explore it in a way that isn't just torture porn. Sure, i can admit im sadistic about my characters, but i want it to lead somewhere.

As someone who was traumatized by Taxidermy as a toddler, ... uh... Y e s.

Show writers need to stop bringing their fetishism and kinks into kids shows ffs

Something I feel isn’t talked about enough is that people who usually don’t go through the type of shit they inflict on their characters will usually only choose, “do the thing” as the avenue for exploring it. Plenty of the people who enjoy this shit the most are almost always the most disconnected from it. I had a lot of conversations with people about the necessity of these portrayals in media, wherein the sheer gruesome detail of the illness or trauma is always present, but never the appropriate tone throughout. And for the most part, when the people are honest, I hear, “There’s a certain level of storytelling you cannot get from just referencing it or talking about it.” Sex scenes, gore, violence or SA, any or all at once, I hear that. Better, more honest writers know that any tool CAN work. But you don’t really need it if you’re a good writer. If you can write good romance, you can write a good sex scene. Good at horror, good at scares and violence, etc. But for some of these people, the presentation is more than enough. THAT’S what some of them resonate with. Mental health and abuse are shock value. A venue where the subject of it is always a small, perfect princess to save and a brutal savage to either have the hots for or stop and convert. Perfect for never having to commit to either writing an unbelievable bastard or a perfectly sexy vector with #Issues. That same attitude spanning across the spectrum of mental illness with varying degrees in either perception. That is, when they think of them as people at all. Ultimately, not only do these people not understand how writing works, but they also have no empathy for these people. And they’re afraid to admit they like wrestling. The like the presentation of mental illness and depression in movies but would NEVER watch a movie like Hereditary. They want their games to be edgy edge to make them more deep and “””complex””” ala Atomic Heart, but would never play or even SIT through the story of game like Kane and Lynch 2. The reason they chose to say, “characters” instead of people is because there’s a self-defensiveness to enjoying the misery of a character and it protects them from the idea that they think this sort of thing about real people. That people with mental illness are, in fact, a game to them. And personally, it’s why I don’t watch stories about DID anymore, especially not horror movies. I can’t stand the idea that someone will see me as a thought experiment or a victim to be cured by the headmates who protect me. And the kind of people whose experience with my illness are through media that bastardizes it that they thoroughly enjoy are more personally offensive than someone just saying it’s not real. They’re the same as the people who cannot stop buying Harry Potter merch to support trans people, only difference is that they’re even more cowardly about it when it involves sex.

I never got through the first season of She Ra because I couldn't stand Catra. Every time she was on screen I wanted to claw my eyes out. When Luz went off about not wanting to exist in class I was expecting the teacher to send her to the councilor's office or call Camila because that was a pretty obvious cry for help. I didn't like the Legend of Korra in general and found it boring, and I see I dodged a bullet not watching it. I hate torture arcs. Absolutely hate them.

I was taught that if you want your readers / audience to have sympathy for a character, they need to be relatable but also have struggles. Face adversity and overcome it, even it not easily. Like what's happening with the current crop of Spiderman comics, I think the people writing these characters have confused adversity for torture porn.

I agree with nearly everything in this video. Suffering for the sake of suffering is something I will never enjoy, and has put me off several series because the brief moments of joy/comfort/happiness were just that - brief. Too brief to really mean anything in the grand scheme of things and surrounded by the darkest, most depressing and/or disturbing story beats the author could come up with, possibly literally. It's like they constantly ask themselves "now, what can i do to make this character hurt worse" and then do it over and over again.

I honestly feel pretty seen by all of this. I mean, not the fetishizing of violence or trauma, but by how our trauma or experiences are reflected in what we like or the tropes we’re drawn to. When I was a kid I dealt with a lot of bullying and tragedies in my family that were out of our control. And to deal with it I put on facade of not being bothered and adopted the ‘what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger’ mentality. I was also scared of being bullied or made to feel inferior again, so I kept a lot of people at arms length, even my own family. And whenever other tragedies or events happened in my life I kept looking for a reason or something positive to take from the experience. “Yes, it’s sad that X died, but at least I got to learn that death can happen suddenly and without warning, which is how the real world works. Life isn’t fair but at least it’s honest.” And this, now that I think about it, is reflected in the tropes I sort of like or lean into. Some of my favorite characters are those that put on a mask and push people away to not get hurt, yet crave love and support but doesn’t feel like they deserve it or brave enough to rush getting hurt again. And sometimes I find myself craving fanfiction where these characters find love or family, then a misunderstanding or fight happens where they feel they have to push them away again because they feel betrayed and hurt, like they were a fool for trusting others and they were always better off on their own. And also, whenever I come across stories like that, part of me wishes for things NOT to turn out okay in the end, with the couple making up and getting back together after a fight and I am only now thinking about WHY I want that. Why I wouldn’t want my favorite character to be happy and have a good life and what that says about me. But now, thanks in parts to Lily’s videos about it, I am starting to see that were no reasons for me being bullied by my classmates or anything else. It didn’t need to happen and all it did was hurt me and mess up my world view, something I need to work on to try and change.

Avatar Szeto was an avatar who refused the call. He opted to be a politician.

You actually made my characters better thanks to this video, i had the idea of trama in just moping around and not doing anything for a malagasy character i had, she had delt with reviving her lover after they were killed and when they came back they were furious with it. Angry at her and she had felt she did a lot wrong. At first i had made it that she stayed in her home for years until he returned but this video inspired me to make her stronger, she decideds to go with her nonbinary necromancer pirate child onto their ship and try to make more of herself, shes upset for awhile but thanks to you i put her to be proactive and find a life outside of just being sad and examine why she feels like she failed when any relationship she has in her life goes wrong, she finds more of herself with her eldest child as her biggest support and she learns to be stronger with the people around her. She even cuts her old damanged hair to finally regrow her old locks back that her mother had tried to straiten for years as a way to get away from her mothers control after she was long gone, a way to feel like she has that control of her body back again after so many people put her under a microscope, her mother included. I feel shes better for it now, a loving mom and married to the love of her life after she and her partner started being more open and shes developed enough to let him in without shutting down when she feels shes shared too much. I love how your video helped me do that, she feels so full and flourished now and shes one of my favorite characters to write and draw. Your video helped me a lot❤

Clever usage of "bad romance" for that montage

3:49 Damn you right, ain’t no rag doll scene gotta play out that long

I had a friend who pressured me relentlessly to watch SPOP, and I didn't want to because I had heard the bad critique of how Catra is handled. They assured me that the critique was wrong and that Catra is their favorite character. I caved and watched the show only to find the Catra and Adora scenes to be so far worse than what I had imagined for a kids' show. We got into a full-blown argument over the abusive themes of the show and how Catra and Adora getting together is a horrible message. This friend felt personally insulted that I tore apart Catra because she claims to see so much of herself in Catra and woobifies her to no end. Since then, I have not taken any recommendations from her, and I don't plan on changing that anytime soon.

For me, it's hard to tell what's worse (if it's a competition, even) Male Victims: their abuse is used for comedy. Female victims: abuse is for people's pleasure. As a guy, I feel biased, but I feel it's both. Making abuse light-hearted is a bad idea.

Any number of troubling trends in fandom. But it's more than a little weird to keep hearing "Everyone has a different response to trauma - but this one is wrong." "I had this experience, but I think anyone saying they've got a similar thing going on is a liar."

I remember I started coping by using abusive ships at 15-17ish. At first it was fine and I listened to the people telling me was normal since no real people were being hurt, expect me. At 18 the fictional problematic tropes I had adored were no longer cool or edgy they were triggering me and the people I had surrounded myself with completely ignored my new boundaries. I was “overreacting” since it was all just fiction after all. I now I realised how much high school negativity impacted me and being out of that environment I had no reason to cope in unhealthy ways just to feel something. I cope now by understanding abuse and ableism and queerphobia and misogyny I went through and I haven’t needed to cope like I did before since. I lost some of my old friends because I started noticing and questioning the stereotypes and bigoted clichés in their fanworks and became a “buzzkill” for asking for them to reflect but I’ve also made new ones. My past is embarrassing but I’m glad I eventually learnt to reflect. I thought I knew what healing was but now I actually get to experience it.

20:07 this actually reminds me of that one family guy episode where peter loads a shotgun arriving to someones house and calmly says "I just wanna talk to em, I just wanna talk em" and the Doom music kicks in.

As a POC, I LOVE angst (and dramatic angst) bc it’s therapeutic for me. What I DON’T understand is no comfort and bad endings. I don’t care if they like it, if that’s therapeutic and fun for them, it’s whatever… but I will NEVER understand it.

My god, putting "Bad Romance" under the "Catra being an abusive fuckstick" montage is darkly hilarious, even moreso than the earlier one with "In the Hall of the Mountain King".

God, this video brings back some cringe memories of the fanfic I wrote in middle school.

Honestly, I like angst, but only if it's in small doses and isn't dragged out for an ungodly amount of time. People enjoy the recovery period from the "beatings", it's the main part that makes the angst work imho. Seeing characters work through their trauma and becoming stronger from the experience, even though it doesn't make the trauma go away entirely it does help shape them. Also, seeing the abuser go punished is just the cherry on top imho.

For those who don't know, bdsm play is called "play" for a reason. It's like lightly teasing a friend, you don't actually want to hurt their feelings, they're just jokes that you find funny. And since bdsm is all about consent, your friend would've told you that they're ok with you making fun of them and that they also find it funny. But finding the stuff in this video hot is the equivalent to finding verbal/emotional abuse funny. Even if the person getting verbally abused was fictional, I think most people would agree that it's too far and not funny, and it's the same for a lot of people who are into bdsm. But of course, there are still people who find really fucked up, cruel, and insensitive things/jokes funny, just like there are people who find this shit hot. Just like your sense of humour, your kinks can also be unhealthy.

I used to deal with this problem a lot, I would essentially force myself to be more sad then I already was because it was the only way I knew how to deal with it, by fetishizing it. And I only got more depressed and angry as a result. It's been like four years and I'm still trying to shake off the effects of that time in my life. I'm much better now but I wish it had never happened at all.

Thank good somebody realizes that that Luz’s whole “trauma” arc is bullshit. People are way too into angsty stuff that they’ll completely ignore any flaws with the how they’re trauma is handled or even the character themselves. If you made any of these points to Luz Noceda stans you’d be on the internet equivalent of death row. It seems like the fandom completely overlooks how horribly Luz treated Amity because they love Luz and Lumity so much that they refuse to see any flaws with any part of the show. Amity did the same thing and she had entire arcs redeeming herself, meanwhile Luz was immediately forgiven and has 0 consequences for her actions (and don’t give me that “Dana wash rushed for time” bullshit. If you know you can’t properly finish an arc, don’t start it!!). I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, Amity deserves better. Once Luz goes through the same process Amity did and comes out a better person and has a healthy coping mechanism and loves both Amity and herself, then they can date and have their happy fluffy romcom ending. Until then, Luz needs to actually deal with her trauma, Amity needs to spend more time taking care of herself, and Dana needs to stop torturing characters for the fun of it. I find it funny how there are so many Lumity stans that despise Catradora for the way their relationship was handled yet refuse to admit Lumity did the same thing but toned down. (Also istg if anyone tries to use my pfp to combat my argument I will scream. It’s not the same thing).

When you talked about how kinks are inherently connected with you as a person i thought about the fics I read and the ones I write I CANNOT read any “hurt no comfort” fic ever because the sheer agony is not worth it for me. I want to see these characters happy not suffering more with no payoff outside of suffering for suffering sake As for when I write, I noticed that my BDSM writing (when the characters are into it and all) it never has degradation or pain or blood or any of the like, it always a “I trust you” kinda affair where the characters just enjoy this moment to have no thoughts head empty fun times. Hell, sometimes I cut the fun time scene entirely from my draft and just leave the aftercare and the afterglow cuddle. I think this means I enjoy the “trust” aspect of BDSM more than the bondage itself. Having someone you can trust so completely appeals to me. This is the first time I think about this. I thank you for that

Hey, I just wanna say I am around 6 minutes and 30 seconds into the video when I had to pause and call my doctor to finally get an shrink appointment that I been procrastinated getting. This video made me realise the problems I been dealing with which made me think I should wait with going to the doctor might just be what I need the doctor for, so thank you a lot! Always love your videos! I know this was not the intent of the video and I'm still gonna watch the rest of it, just wanted to share.

Christ, as a kid I used to be one of those people who enjoyed the idea of my favorite characters going through suffering just for the sake of suffering purely because It "helped" me cope with shit. Now as an adult, I'm just so tired of seeing angst EVERYWHERE. I miss shows that stay lighthearted and fun despite people wanting things to get serious. I'm tired of serious. life is serious enough. I got so into Rise because it was just a silly and funny tmnt show and the fans are so needlessly angsty and cruel to the characters, it's inescapable at this point. People are so allergic to silly joy and would just rather write fanfiction about kids show characters being suicidal i guess

21:53 every time I see that picture of Alie I’m like: “Omg, Alie’s face is so cute and it demands to be kissed!!😍” thank you Lily for writing her face like that, and thank you Mikaila for drawing her face that way!!🥰

I also went through my: All my characters must be sad and angst and "I'm working through my shit by putting my characters through shit." Literally. Sketchbooks upon sketchbooks of that crap. Fortunately, now I am a little older and a little wiser and my characters have, If not happy ends, emotionally satisfying ends. Unfortunately (or more fortunately, depending on how you look at it), I can no longer fucking stand no comfort. Yuk. Brings me right back to my childhood.

"However.. It's hot" Is such a hilarious response that it could be put on an image infront of some Movie or cartoon character and be on the same level as a meme or funny gif

The shackles, the whipping...they are NOT subtle at all, huh. Aang did not have it easier either, but it was way more light on the depiction. In LoK they ragdoll her body you can second-hand feel the crushing of the ankles. I feel like Aang's monk-upbringing and the eradication of his people gave him way more agency as the Avatar. While Korra very much seems to be everyone's problem solver.

after seeing this I found somewhat surprising I can't think about one white male protagonist who was abused to this degree. what is more surprising is the fact that most MALE villains has gone less "truma" and Fandom will want it to stop because "redemption"

Reminds me of a video essay by James Somerton on Killing Stalking and how some people also similarly "enjoy" "abuse-as-love" type of relationship between gay guys as well...

This video actually made me rethink why i liked luz so much. I always found the fandom's fascination with depression luz to be a little bit strange but never thought much of it, i was mostly indifferent to depression luz cus it felt strange and it it turns out i liked the happy version more cus i saw more of myself in happy luz than i did with depression luz.

I'm grateful for the fact that, whenever I'm feeling like shit, and life is overwhelming, and sometimes even genuinely suicidal, my first impulse isn't to cut myself off from others, it's to desperately try and find somebody to talk to. (my thoughts about the on screen text at 12:04)

Honestly, you can tell when someone's purely writing torture porn than a recovery arc if the torture is more prominent than the recovery itself.

Oof the comment about wanting to be miserable because we equate that with accountability. That... put into words something insde me I've been trying to unpack for a while. There's a lot of trauma behind that mindset, obviously, but yeah that hit hard and thank you for helping me name that so I can continue to work on it and unpack it.