The atmosphere, the music, the artwork... Chilling to the bone... And this idea on the nature of the Ringwraiths' power makes a lot of sense to me, considering they probably became Wraiths by trying to escape death with their rings...
I think that's an idea never talked about enough actually when it comes to the Ringwraiths. We talk of them seeking power and authority, but it's certainly possible that at least some of them were corrupted through the idea of escaping the "Doom of Men" by carrying these rings. Wish I had added that point to the video :/
@@TheRedBook I think it's better this way : you can always talk more about the Nazgûl in another video :) IIRC, three of them were Númenóreans, seduced by Sauron at a time when many of their people were looking for the secret to a longer life, if not to immortality. So it may have played a role in their corruption... But as you said, we can never truly know.
I think you are spot on on many points. The Nazgûl's power of fear does have a greater grip on Men because it largely represents the fear of death and the unknown. But I also think that fear is augmented by the power of Sauron in them, and them being his main agents and enforcers. Legolas was unaffected by the frail shades of the Men of Dunharrow, but was clearly dismayed by the Nazgûl coming at them at the Anduin (not to the point of despondency, but dismayed he was). And the Black Breath is tied to that power of fear, and can overcome even those that have the courage to withstand and face them. So there's definitely a supernatural, demonic element to that power of fear.
A nice answer! I always explained their terror in a similar yet more shallow way: Men are supposed to die, so the mere existence of ghosts and the undead has the innate ability to strike fear into men's hearts on a visceral level, just by sheer virtue of their existence being a travesty on the natural order of the world. No need for any rings of power or being Sauron's top lieutenants.
@@TheRedBook Affirming what I previously wrote, I think even Men who fully understand and embrace The Gift Of Men would still be terrified, by and large. Dying is natural and even a good thing when embraced in estel, there is no way for either Man or even The Valar to change this fate. But what's this?! The undead... exist?! At all?! Whether it be a simple poltegeist, harmless and confined to a house, or the accursed Ringwraiths or Oathbreakers, the mere existence of the undead have horrifying implications. They are living proof that there are evil forces able to corrupt and enslave Men beyond the cycle of life and death, that Men can swear foolish oaths and bring undeath on their own accord without the need for any dark lord. Even the Edain of The First Age and the Numenoreans of The Second Age would be horrified; indeed, the spiritual travesty and implications of the undead would have them fearing for their eternal souls and salvation. If they do not fear The Gift Of Men, they might do so after meeting these beings! Even an Edain or Numenorean would need to be like Aragorn, combining exceptional strength of will with a strong understanding of life and death and undeath, to stand up to the likes of the Nazgul. All this being said, the Numoreans were instrumental in saving the elves and then capturing Sauron during The Second Age, both before and after their fall into arrogance and corruption. The Nazgul also appeared somewhere along this timeline. What do you think of the Nazgul's military usefulness against the Numenoreans? Perhaps they were Sauron's greatest assets against them? Or maybe the Numenorean army as a whole was like Glorfindel, undaunted and nullifying the terror that Sauron and the Nazgul would have relied on so heavily for victory?
@@MistaGify - That's the strange thing. The Second Age is almost barren when it comes to content, but we know the Ringwraiths were around 2251 of the Second Age. 2259 elsewhere, but Sauron surrendered to Numenor about 700 years later. We both know the Nine aren't going to tackle an army on their own. When Sauron's actual armies were defeated by the arrival of the Numenoreans in the War of the Elves and Sauron, obviously the Ringwraiths weren't around. It seems they were never properly tested? But we'd assume they were there in the War of the Last Alliance. We have to just make assumptions cause this stuff is never told to us. If you forced me to say, it could possibly be a mixture. The Men of Numenor at their height would be undaunted, at a time when they were Elf-friends and blessed on the Isle. As corruption set in and they clung to life, the Ringwraiths would basically be a walking nightmare. Their fear of such things could coincide with their fall. But...we just don't know do we?
@@TheRedBook Alas, The Second Age served mainly as a bridge between the First and Third ages, except for the rise and fall of Numenor. We’ll never know what role the Nazgul played, what gamechangers they must have been on the battlefield. The first victims of Sauron’s ring scheming, with new powers and implications for other races if they had also been ensnared. We can only hope the Amazon series brings in the Nazgul, giving them badass feats yet having them evenly matched against the Numenoreans.
I agree that the power of fear of the Ringwraiths mostly refers to the fear of death. But they are also an eloquent reminder of the fall of Men and what their weak will can lead them to. And therefore, what I like the most about this video is your very last words in the conclusion: it is all about them being unnatural and tied. It is their distorted and enslaved form of the afterlife that scares the most. For the same reason, we are afraid of ghosts - not because they are dead, but because they cannot leave. They are trapped between two worlds: unable to return to life yet not allowed to go further. A very scary and sad state. And the fact that the Dead Men of Dunharrow partly shared this power of fear only proves that. This, of course, is my personal opinion, but I would be afraid of eternal slavery more than of the unknown, because the unknown is an opportunity, and there is no opportunity in slavery.
Nice way of putting it. It's pretty much similar to what my thoughts would be in any Dead Men of Dunharrow video. Fear of the unknown, fear of death and what lies in wait beyond life. The fact they are so trapped is possibly more frightening than the unknown of where one goes upon death.
@@TheRedBookGlad to hear that you share my thoughts on this matter :) Sounds like the Dead Men of Dunharrow video could become even more thrilling than this one. Philosophical and psychological topics are always so enthralling...
I have always been fascinated by the Ringwraiths and they are my favorite characters in the lord of the rings. I am fascinated by their design and backstory.
I think it's like gravity and sense of the world. Nazgul and other wights punch a hole though the Seen into the Unseen, and mortal beings who only know the seen world experience that as vertigo and horror. Elves and other immortals can balance themselves better. And mortals who get over that fear do so for several different reasons, the main and most consistant one - I think - being purpose, looking past the current terror and taking the step anyway even if the floor suddenly looks to be falling away. (Or just feeling there's nothing left to lose anyway, like with Eowyn.)
Always good when someone who knows their stuff agrees :D. There's always the worry that someone will find some really obscure quote from a note in History of Middle-earth XIII written on a Tolkien napkin that lays waste to the interpretation!
With how much the numenoreans fear death as well, it would have been interesting to see their reactions to the nazgul bringing forth a fear of something they were already deathly afraid of. While I do believe the numenoreans had more ways of Defending against the Nazgul then the characters in The Lord of the rings, it still must have been crazy to see them in action against the numenoreans for the first time
First, I would like to say that I really like your channel’s content. It is probably the best Tolkien related in depth discussion in this platform I have seen so far. And I see that we share an appreciation of the great audiobook narration of Phil Dragash. That is a masterpiece and seeing it being used elsewhere is great. Here is what I object to: Elves do fear much simpler things than Ring-Wraiths and they absolutely fear death “as men do”. The tale of the Children of Hurin (CoH), one of the most in depth depiction of elves and the lives of their heroes and their villains (as elves have villains among them in plenty) is full of elves that fear death, pain and/or suffering. Silmarillion and other works (outside of LOTR and Hobbit) has plenty of other examples of this. In these works, elves flee from harm/death in multiple occasions, even fearing simple mortal men that can harm them physically. Elves are not some saints or gods or religious figures that achieved Nirvana at birth, not fearing facing the Halls of Mandos. Elves die and face judgement and uncertainty, just not in the same manner as men, in Tolkien’s work. It is unknowing what will happen that makes the burden (or gift) of Men larger in these tales. My understanding is that many elves never even return from Mandos back to the living, and only do so by paying a penance for their mistakes and learning wisdom and after a long time. An excerpt: "Before Mablung spoke he had been on the point of releasing Saeros, but now with a shout he sprang after him again; and Saeros, despairing at last of aid and thinking his death close behind, ran wildly on, until he came suddenly to a brink where a stream that fed Esgalduin flowed in a deep cleft through high rocks, and it was wide for a deer-leap. In his terror Saeros attempted the leap; but he failed of his footing on the far side and fell back with a cry, and was broken on a great stone in the water. So he ended his life in Doriath; and long would Mandos hold him." There are examples of countless elves in CoH that are extremely similar to humans in every behavior, aside from pseudo-infinite natural lifespan. This includes, fear from physical/mental harm, hatred, injustice, fear, envy, greed and all other vices that are commonly attributed to men/dwarves/orcs/servants of Melkor. In CoH, we see elves that become so broken that they lose all hope and depart for Mandos after cursing life itself (which would be understandable for a person suffering in such a manner but not some angelic being that fears no death of themselves or their loved ones). Being an elf is not some blissful existence where you are just heroes and fear no death and suffering. This would diminish all the bravery that some of them eventually show in their immense struggles of fighting a God-figure in Melkor. Further, LOTR/Hobbit are probably the most elf-worshipping of all the works as the perspective is that of Hobbits that see them in that light, almost all of it rightfully so. Hobbits never met cruel and unjust elven folk before and throughout their journey. Most elves absolutely would fear the Ring-Wraiths, even in the LOTR, if we restrict ourselves to this text. I cannot see what would make someone say that, “I do not think that reflects any sort of fear on the part of these elves”, when it is obvious that that is what it reflects. What else could “not being able to openly ride against the Nine” mean if not that it would be a terrifying experience to face a literal demon of the Middle-earth as a regular grey-elf? Twisting that to mean that their numbers is what gives them power is a huge stretch. The text clearly meant that riding against ONE of the Nine openly would be a serious undertaking of courage for any single random elf from Rivendell. Making a generalizing statement about the elves and their relationship to death based on the perspective of Glorfindel and Legolas (heroes/important side-heroes) in their courageous responses to certain events in the story is too much of a claim for a whole race that we know the history of. Elves/men/dwarves all fear and flee from death and suffering in the same manner. Although I object to your conclusions in this particular case, I appreciate your work.
I can't understand why you don't have thousands of likes. You write beautifully and despite your barbarous accent you have a wonderful, considered and sonorous delivery. My experience with other LOTR vloggers is that they are 'encyclopedic' - you are more psychological, and more questioning. Perhaps not to the taste of some detail-obsessed nerds, but I like your posts.
@@TheRedBook Your views do NOT even remotely suck. I've gobbled up all your posts since I stumbled across them and they have all been insightful, thought-provoking and incredibly intelligentl. Great production values too - music is excellent, visuals well chosen, typography stunning. I had given up on LOTR vloggers. The majority of them are just nerds who simply re-hash events or focus on the obvious in a really limited way. For what it's worth, I think your stuff is vastly superior. Maybe too much so for the literal minded. I'm glad you have put so much effort into your work and who cares how many likes you get or how many subscribers. I've read most of the comments on your posts and most of them are very literate - so, yes, you have a small audience, but it's a first class audience!
Oh no, it's not self-deprecating - they really do suck! I appreciate every view I get and all the people who enjoy the content and comment, definitely, but the view count is awful. I get in a day what the big Tolkien channels get in 10-15 minutes on new videos. Definitely not badmouthing my own content or presentation but perhaps the views don't reflect it? The only reason I care about views and subs is that I'd like to ideally start doing this more. At the moment I'm nowhere near able to do that. And I definitely agree. I check out the comments on a lot of other channels and I'd say the comment sections are up there as one of the best. Nice interpretations, questions, and ideas. It's not just a sea of "I'm commenting the thing you told me to comment so you get engagement". People commenting genuinely enjoy talking Tolkien.
You make a very powerful argument but I'm not quite convinced. I think the power of the dread inspired by the Nazgul lies in the fact that it is non-specific, rather than being tied to a specific fear of, for instance, death. But I don't think I can develop my case beyond that. Another excellent video - art and music combining to illuminate your narrative.
Thanks for the comment, Andrew. Of course, your interpretation is as good as any. I suppose I'm not out to "convince" so to speak, but share how I view it. Their power of dread is really as mysterious as they are. I think my thoughts were shaped due to WHO seems to be the most terrified of them, and I thought of reasons based on that. We don't really get any scenario with a group of Elves being confronted by them...which may completely change my thoughts on the matter.
Personally I like the idea of the Nine Rings giving the Nazgûl the power of fear. I imagine that the Rings would have originally made these Men great leaders, with the Rings giving them authority and inspiring everyone around them, but authority would slowly have turned into tyranny and inspiration would have turned into fear; so that during the Lord of the Rings, the power of the Rings would have purely been terror and fear.
Everything you said is true, but the Witch King at least does seem to have some kind of magical power beyond just the fear that unnatural beings of his kind inspires in mortals. My theory is that evil "sorcerers," like the witch king are using the power that Melkor dispersed into the matter of Arda to give themselves power over the natural world, what do you think?
Oh yeah, I wasn't making a claim that it is ALL they had. I just echo Tolkien by saying it was their chief power, but the Witch-king does stand alone among the Nine as being something greater. I can see what you mean with the Melkor comment. It could be that they benefit from gifts of Sauron, who in turn benefits from Melkor's dispersed power. Remember, Sauron makes use of Mount Doom for his forging and sorceries, and I have always taken Mount Doom to be a specific place tied to the dispersed power of Melkor, a subterranean fire from his time when he was interfering with the work of the Valar. Yet, like "Magic" I see people performing sorcery as having happen what they want to happen, the strength of their will being manifested. I do have a video idea for the future which is discussing "Magic and sorcery" because I find that to be an interesting topic too. I don't really have a problem with your theory to be honest. i do like the idea that others benefit from the remnant of Morgoth, just like plenty suffer under it...
That would explain to me why "sorcery" is always considered to be evil. I wonder, too, if the Numenorians are inherently more magical than regular humans, because in addition to the witch king and his sorcery, the "good" Numenorians in Arnor seemed to have the power to put spells onto their weapons. Its hard to imagine a regular smith of Rohan making a magical weapon with "spells for the bane of Mordor." Hearing your descriptions of the terror the undead inspire in mortals, it made me imagine how awesome it would be if we'd gotten a glimpse of that kind of subtlety with the Army of the Dead in the Peter Jackson movies, instead of a big dumb invincible ghost army.
@@waltonsmith7210 Elves are capable of "sorcery" too, but you are right in that it generally is associated with evil. I'll get into this when I do a video, but from what I've read about magic and sorcery in Tolkien, magic seems to be providing a very real change in the physical world. Gandalf making fire in a place where fire would regularly not be possible, like on caradhras. Sorcery seems to be more related to the will and deception. Elves were able to use sorcery to "bewilder" men, and Saruman was able to use it to subjugate the will of others. The difference lies in motive, purpose, and use. Magic then often gets associated with benevolence and sorcery, malevolence.
To Tolkien, each word has a clear and specific meaning so he had a clear notion to why he used each word, like sorcery versus magic, and so forth. Sadly, some of the meanings of these words have changed in the last 50 years so our understanding is a bit shadowed or perhaps muddied.
I suspect elves who had been to or were born in Valinor would not feel any fear of the Nazgul. For other elves it would depend a lot on how close they were to Valinorean elves. Elrond had never been to Valinor but he spent a lot of time in his early life around elves who had and he was also part Maia so I don't think it would effect him either. Generally speaking I think elves who had been in Beleriand would be more resistant but other elves would be less resistant.
Yes, it's an interesting thought. We tend to read the lack of fear of the Valar being associated with those who were in the Blessed Realm in the time of the trees, but I suspect Elves in general would be far more resistant to the fear as I say in the video. Ringwraiths seem far more concerning to Men in terms of uncontrollable fear, yet I'm sure Elves could still feel very uneasy around them - considering they are very evil servants of the greater evil.
Gandalf and Nazgul had fight on Weathertop Gandalf reaches Weathertop but does not overtake [Witch-king and other four Riders]; for they become aware of his approach as he overtakes them on Shadowfax, and withdraw into hiding beside the road. They close in behind. [The Witch-king] is both pleased and puzzled. For a while he had been in great fear, thinking that by some means Gandalf had got possession of the Ring and was now the Bearer; but as Gandalf passes he is aware that Gandalf has not got the Ring. What is he pursuing? He himself must be after the escaping Bearer; and it must therefore somehow have gone on far ahead. But Gandalf is a great power and enemy. He must be dealt with, and yet that needs great force. [The five] follow Gandalf hotly to Weathertop. Since Gandalf halts there, [the Witch-King] suspects that that is a trysting place. Gandalf is attacked by [the five plus the rider who had stayed near Weathertop] on Weathertop on night 3-4. Frodo and Aragorn see the light of the battle in the sky from their camp. Oct. 4: Gandalf repulses the Nazgûl and escapes northwards at Sunrise, and follows the Hoarwell up towards the mountains. [Four Riders] are sent in pursuit (mainly because [the Witch-king] thinks it possible he may know of the wheabouts or course of the Bearer). So Nazgul are powerful even when there are not all 9 and Gandalf runned away from 4 of them that Witch king send after him so even lesser Nazgul are stil incredible powerful
Great question. This is something I'll most likely cover in a future 2-part video I'm planning about the Fall of Man. The idea here is that it's not necessarily that they are being gifted longer life but that they are being blessed with a restoration of their original lifespan before the corruption of Melkor in Hildórien. A time when Men fell to Melkor worship believing he was Eru.
@@TheRedBook I understand this idea, but I find it very unsatisfying. The fallout of having a race of men gifted with long life would obviously come to cherish long life. Especially in the face of all other immortal beings. The idea that mortality would be seen as anything but a giant Jip to the numenoreans I think was naive of eru. I think he knew what he was doing, and what would hapen
@@planepantsgames1791 I think a lot of it is really down to the Valar. They 'bless' the Numenoreans but put restricitons on them as well. The fall of Numenor is a lesson for everyone. Sauron is to blame, the Numenoreans are to blame, the Valar are to blame.
Recently I've read an interesting comment that it is quite likely that Earnur was ambushed by archers or the like after entering Minas Morgul upon accepting the Witch-King's challenge. The reason would be that Earnur did not fear the Witch-King, so he may beat him in a fair duel! Oh, and I've just noticed that their drowning at Bruinen mirrors Sauron drowning at Númenor. I think Sauron may have even been close to drowning when he lost the battle of the Gwathló against Gil-Galad and the host from Númenor. Anyway, do you think the Nine suffered any damage from this drowning? I wonder whether they were so disoriented and dazzled that it took them a while to position themselves. Actually, can physical forces like water push a spiritual being? I don't really understand how much of a physical body they still had 😅
Where did you read that comment about Eärnur? Sauron isn't a fan of water :D , no wonder he hates the Númenóreans! Well, they were faded, but they still had bodies. They were corporeal. That's why they could wield swords, wear robes, ride beasts. They were physically there. And yes, I think they suffered damage. They CAN be harmed and it was a violent flood that carried them away. They lost their cloaks, most of their horses were killed, and they would have been disoriented and lost without those horses guiding them in daylight. All except the Witch-king of course. "The Ring Goes South" says that 8 of the horses were accounted for. The Hunt for the Ring in Unfinished Tales tells us that the Witch-king, who can ride without the same issues in daylight, rode ahead and help was sent back for the others. He took a month to return to Mordor and the rest took three.
@@TheRedBook Awesome :-) That comment was under a video by Geekzone, who in my view is among the top three lore video creators I know of. Fun fact: I read the material in German, and the umlaut marks are removed (Fëanor -> Feanor) to avoid confusion as the pronounciation otherwise equates the German one in most cases. Apart from the ringwraith's fear factor: touching the Witch-King even through a weapon seems to intoxicate men (the black breath). Do you think that extends to the other Nazgûl as well, and would elves be affected? To me this seems to be a different effect than their aura of fear, it seems a bit weird that you could die from fear alone (at least it seems like the Oathbreakers are unable to do that) though I would not rule it out...
@@Crafty_Spirit I'd need to have a look at the comment. There's no text I've ever come across that mentions archers. It's pretty much a mystery what happens to him when he goes to Minas Morgul. Yes, it should apply to the others. Merry suffers under the Black Breath at Bree. It's apparently Khamûl who brings word to the Witch-king from the spy in Bree. And yes, it seems to really be extreme terror. Even in our world you can be scared to death, I don't find it beyond imagination that these creatures could cause the Black Shadow!
@@TheRedBook Ah that part with the archers is just speculation :-) Only a picture for the idea that the Witch-King would not duel a seasoned warrior who does not fear him, so he sets up a trap
@@Crafty_Spirit Ah, I see. I can see the reasoning behind it. Since it's all speculation, I quite like the idea of him thinking he will get a fair contest and the Witch-king basically mocks him and has him put to death. A pointless and sad end. Who knows though :D ?!
The Nazgûl should not be able to use fear on those who live both in the seen and unseen realms such as the Ainur. So if they were not physically that strong, why was Gandalf so "hard pressed" on Weathertop? Did the rings allow them to channel power from Sauron in other ways to attack Gandalf, or something else?
Gandalf tells us that they are an even greater threat when all gathered together under the Witch-king of Angmar. They fought with Gandalf together at night, when their power is revealed. Their greatest power is their power of fear but they are still deadly and still a massive threat, even to those who don't fear them - especially when all Nine are together. Gandalf held them off then separated them when he escaped in daylight. Does this mean they were going to defeat him if he waited longer? Probably not but even Gandalf isn't going to be dealing with nine Ringwraiths swiftly. We only see glimpses of what happened on Weathertop, with fire and lightning. It seems more that the Ringwraiths just kept renewing their assault on Gandalf while he held them back through displays of power, then found his chance to escape.
The men who would become the Nazgul were powerful *before* acquiring the rings that eventually enslaved them. The Witch-King and possibly others were possibly of Numenorian descent and had many powers that lesser races lacked. Recall how in Ithilien Faramir was basically able to read Frodo’s mind. There is no reason to think any of these powers were lost or diminished when they turned into wraiths. Likely the opposite in fact. Anyway, a long-winded way of agreeing that the aspect of “deathiness” was not their only power.
Sorry, but if an author wants something to be a part of his book, he can danged well put it in his book. Otherwise it's just head-canon. Yes, even the author can have head-canon.
