I'm a sucker (no pun intended) for analyzing the horror elements in Tolkien. While Tolkien's vampires are more grotesque and monstrous than the suave humanoid version that's more popular currently, it's interesting that even early horror novels associate vampires with deceit, seduction, and mind-control -- all very much hallmarks of Sauron in his later and less vampy iterations. I wonder if there was a subconscious connection there.
Perhaps not even subconscious on Tolkien's part. This is what interests me because I tend to lean towards them being just the name for the large monstrous bat or bat form but there could be something deeper there with those characteristics you mentioned. Perhaps Tolkien didn't even want to carry them forward and we are just discussing them because of Christopher's editorial choices? Gandalf does mention Werewolves in LotR but not Vampires...
There's something about your videos that stand out above other Tolkien channels. Your narration of the more niche, sometimes metaphysical topics, paired with the dark music create an eery yet cosy amosphere. I feel like I'm sat in Bag End at night, roaring fire, the rain lashing against the windows as I pour over old tomes reading about the history of our world.
You've got it. Atmosphere is the word. Another user said on an earlier video that they felt they were watching a video about forbidden knowledge and I thought that was a good way of putting it. Funny, it mostly came about because of the way I narrate. I can't do the happy, radio-host voice a lot of the other channels do. It feels unnatural for me to do it! The dark music came due to the nature of my early videos...pretty much all of them were about dark topics - Saruman turning, Barrow-wights, Melkor, Galadriel's temptation, Ringwraiths. It then became something I really liked doing and it seems to have stuck.
In regards to other topics, not many, if any of the Tolkien channels on RU-vid have explored the man himself, we talk a little about the great war, and he's Catholic etc... But I would love to know more about Tolkien in a video form, especially created by you specifically, I think you'd give much more insight into his life, apart from the bullet point stuff most of us already know. Have a great day.
I've never actually considered it. Even though I've dissected all the letters and (think) I am pretty good at covering his thoughts on some Legendarium issues, I'd probably be poor at getting deeper than that on a video about the man himself. I have thought about going through some of the important letters as a series but I would like to do some things other channels haven't and I wasn't aware that the others hadn't really covered Tolkien himself as you say.
I love what you're doing! Your calm, Celtic lilt is also very easy on the ears. It's criminal that this channel has so few subs! Please keep doing what you're doing. You'll find your audience.
What do you think about Vampires? A remnant of earlier drafts that made their way into the edited Silmarillion? Do you think any were still around in the Third Age? Do you wish they played a bigger part or would you prefer they weren't involved at all? Share your thoughts! And out of curiosity, would you like to see a similar video about Werewolves?
I think the vampires are were creatures analogous to werewolves. As in, natural creature + fell spirit= corrupted creature of the Dark Lord. They are a nice middle finger to Yavanna as well as excellent servants. I think it important to always add a heaping helping of spite to any description of the twisted corruptions of Melkor or Sauron. This seems to be Melkor and later Sauron's work around or dark corruption of the Secret Fire. If they can't create life from nothing they why not twist what's available, and if it pains your Creator, so much the better. On a related note, when Tolkien says "fell spirit" are we talking about lesser Maiar or dead spirits of the Children of Eru? I've read somewhere (don't remember where) that wargs are bodies of dread dire wolves inhabited by the spirits of wolves twisted to evil by the Dark Lords. There are also the Boldog Orcs that are maia in orc shape presumably used as primary breeding stock to launch the species and later as great captains. The Barrow-wights on the other hand, seem to be evil spirits of the Angmarim who died in 1409 that the Witch King sent to inhabit the bodies of the dead Cardolan royalty. So I'm never clear what spirits we are talking about when Tolkien speaks of fell or dread spirits. While we are on the subject, I always think of the spirit of Caradhras as a crotchety combo of Jack Frost and 2021 Clint Eastwood yelling "GET OFF MY LAWN!"
Just out of curiosity, what do vampires actually do for Morgoth? Do they just fly around and do surveillance or reconnaissance?Can they change into human form? If not, they can't fight with conventional weapons. Can they fight without dropping heavy objects on people or biting and scratching them? They seem to be a joke as a fighting machine. Sauron only changed into a vampire to fly away from Huan, not to fight him.
@@beatleblev Thanks for your thoughts once again. I agree with you when you talk of Werewolves and their similarity to Vampires, in terms of the combination of body and powerful spirit. As for that spirit, I am torn. When it comes to Morgoth, it's easy to imagine that the spirits he has drawn to him could occupy these forms, fallen Maiar, or "spirits of another order", placed into these forms or taking these forms to satisfy his needs. However, when it comes to Sauron, the idea that these spirits could be houseless spirits that he has abused and is now using in some form of necromancy is possible. Perhaps a combination of both?
@@Enerdhil - I think that's due to a severe lack of information. We see Thuringwethil, a messenger of Sauron, but don't see her in conflict, or her demise, yet she would have been defeated or killed somehow. Then we see Sauron, as you say, escaping in this vampire form after losing a previous conflict in a Werewolf form. I don't think it gives us any insight into whether a Vampire would be useful for surveillance, reconnaissance, etc, or if they could actually be creatures that attack others. It's all speculation due to a lack of information on them in the first place...
@@TheRedBook As you stated, first Sauron fought in WEREWOLF form, but escaped in VAMPIRE form. That alone tells me that in Sauron's mind, the Vampire form was for fleeing purposes only.
I like that Tolkien's vampires are the antithesis of the sparkly vampires so common these days. It's fine if they are able to disguise themselves as being attractive but their true form should be monstrous; similar to what is seen with an incubus/succubus although not as overtly erotic. The similarities to Sauron are obvious although Sauron's shapeshifting abilities are vastly superior. I would have enjoyed Tolkien writing more about them; of course I can say that about very many things he wrote about in his Legendarium.
I'm a year late, but in my head, the way that Tolkien describes "vampires" feels like he was using it synonymously as a large, monstrous bat. In the time of Tolkien's life, the common image of the vampire had shifted to Bram Stoker and Nosferatu's idea of a vampire primarily, but noting that almost every instance of vampires involves the person/creature being aloft, I think "great bat" would make the most sense.
Agreed. We have this modern perception of what Vampire means and I think it's fittingly archaic with how Tolkien would use it. I certainly picture Vampires in the Legendarium as meaning monstrously large bat creatures over blood-sucking eastern Europeans 😅
@@TheRedBook Exactly. While it's never described, I feel like the common term "vampire" within Middle Earth may still pertain to some beast of darkness. Perhaps made in a manner similar to the orcs, uruk-hai, olog-hai, etc by corrupting bats or twisting their form with some other beast. I think that if the form were meant to be exclusively used by those who shapeshift into them, they wouldn't have been described in shorthand as vampires, since the familiarity implies that Tolkien at some point expected at least a few people to have seen such creatures. That's just my own theory, though.
Yes, this is how I view them when I read the material. They are figures taking on particularly monstrous versions of already monstrous creatures. And thank you!
In my opinion it's same what is with the Werewolves. They are probably Umaiar which by fell magic were incarnated into the bodies of chosen bats and through wrath and agony changed their shape to more dreadfull.
When Melkor first started corrupting Ëa in the time of bliss, it talks about animals and plants becoming corrupted, “beasts of horn that drank blood and creeping vines that tangled and ensnared” etc, I see the Werewolves and Vampires as this at the extreme, spirits (maybe Maia) showcasing the corruption within them like a badge of honour. Another great Vid! 🦇
The soft way you speak, for the most part -- very "shhh, they'll hear us and we'll all be doomed" -- combined with creepy-melancholic music + the unexpected-for-JRRT subject honestly freaks me out in a way I never thought Tolkien / Middle-Earth could do. I'm impressed and a little horrified and am going to hurry to go elsewhere on the interwebz now...
Haha it does come across that way. It's a mix of me naturally being quiet in person and the first videos I made on the channel. I just speak normally into the mic and can't do that radio presenter voice a lot of channels do. It kind of makes me seem like I'm not enthusiastic which I really am, especially about this material. I wanted a moody atmosphere for my first videos which were all quite dark subject matter - Saruman's fall, Melkor and the Silmarils, and the Barrow-wights. It's just sort of stuck since then and seems to be the style of the channel. Which I am more than happy with!
The Middle Earth games really wasted the opportunity of putting vampires and werewolves in Mordor. Instead, they just made stuff up to add more creatures.
fuck yeah finally someone addressed the quite interesting eerie theme about the vampires in Tolkien´s lore so barely used in his work, but which is actually very interesting, specially after noticing that there is no actual ending on what happened to them anyway and if they still are active during the Lord of the Rings time or even later on. There are several eerie creepy darker themes pretty much left loose by Tolkien such as vampires or the Nameless Things.
Interesting idea. It does remind me of those early texts where we are told Melkor was attempting to corrupt the Eagles to be able to learn the "power of flight" from them.
@@TheRedBook The Eagles come from Manwe and Morgoth knew that. I have always thought that they were sent by Manwe to keep an eye on Morgoth. How an eagle would even get close enough to Morgoth so he could try to corrupt them is beyond me. When and where could he have tried to corrupt them?
@@goncaloferreira6429 - Kind of. Both are heavily associated with Sauron. Even becoming "Lord of Werewolves" and residing in the "Isle of Werewolves". He commands an army of them for searching for Beren. Yet, Morgoth is still associated with Werewolves. He was the one to send the evil spirit that became the sire of all Werewolves, Draugluin. He was also the one to feed and empower Carcharoth.
Hi Steve 🖖🏼 I was in Sicily and now late to the party. Happy to see that you've almost hit 1000 subscribers, community posts will be unlocked within days I guess 👌🏼
Vampires are most likely lesser maiar that were led to evil when Morgoth first opposed illuvatar. The silmarillion states that, in the first age, Melkor's servants were much more diverse assortment of spirits, beasts, and monsters, that he had corrupted into his service in one way or another. Elves had not yet awoken so orcs didnt exist yet. He was still experimenting with what he could find. I think that vampires were there from the beginning though, as some of the first followers of melkor. Balrogs are most well known as fallen maiar, but they werent the only kind, just the most recognized warriors and soldiers. Vampires were probably more similar to the Valar, the angellic elves of the undying lands, but with a more sinister visage and demeanor. I think they might have originally been valar, who supported melkor's will and became increasingly evil & bloodthirsty as a result. I speculate that Sauron himself, despite being referred to as a Sorcerer, might actually have been a vampire as well- he had many of them in his service, and transformed into a vampiric shape often, though he also took on the form of a werewolf. But he could also take the form of a handsome elven lord, until he took on a shape more similar to morgoth's. Tolkien described werewolves as beasts imbued with powerful spirits, lacking the transformation elements of most werewolf lore, but he tends to describe vampires as more humanoid, with a sort of animal aspect to them. So consider- if morgoth could create werewolves by putting evil spirits into the body of a beast, wouldnt he hypothetically be able to create vampires by inserting the essence of an animal (i.e. bat) into the bodies of his minions instead? At least it seems like no new werewolves or vampires have been created since the defeat of morgoth, those that werent destroyed likely either devolved into degenerated states, like the wargs or the bats of dol guldur, or maybe even sought redemption from the valar for turning against them (an offer Sauron was given, but declined). Maybe they simply vanished before Sauron could enlist them, or maybe he viewed them as rivals and hunted them down himself. Or maybe they sealed themselves away in tombs, awaiting morgoth's return for dagur dagorath
It'd be neat if they played a larger role in the 2nd and 3rd age, but only if Tolkien somehow made them very different or interesting, not just a dracula clone, sucking blood etc... Thanks for the video, have a great day everyone
@@TheRedBook I've not given it much thought, and that's why I would have loved it if Tolkien came up with something much more creative than I ever could, I like the idea of them being shape shifters. I immediately think of Ongoliant(h), wasn't she said to take the form of a giant spider but wasn't necessarily bound to or born of that figure? Maybe the Vampires could've been her doing, sort of how the orcs came to be by Morgoth, she created the shape shifting vampires by torturing and twisting a creature Illuvatar created, or somehow gave birth to not only other spiders like Shelob but also other creatures that gained her shape shifting powers. I don't know, that's all I got for now, could be a neat thought experiment.
@@alexshadowfax1119 - Ungoliant is an interesting example. Something in spider shape, who then mated with actual spiders, to create more fell spiders. This is why I speak of Werewolves and Wolves, or Wargs. You can have horrid creatures, but then greater and more terrible versions of these creatures, probably occupied by greater spirits within them instead of whatever inhabits a "beast".
We need to hear more about the wild men that helped the Rohrim sneak around to Gondor . I've only come across one Tolkien channel that has covered them and it would be cool to get another perspective on tyem and there history.
Do you happen to know the name of the channel that was discussing them? Was it Tolkien Lore? I could cover them in a Q&A video for sure. I just try to avoid basic history videos. I think they are interesting enough to cover though in more detail.
I'm not entirely sure if Tolkien actually knew what vampires and werewolves are as well as we do now, since neither myth is really native to England (even several decades earlier, Bram Stoker had to draw conclusions and make a few things up, due to relying on typically somewhat inaccurate information from mainland European travelers), but instead used the general loose ideas associated with the words as he understood them (vampire = something to do with big bats and blood, werewolves = wolves with man features or vice-versa, and yes Tolkien was a linguist and familiar with the origin of the word 'werewolf' at the very least) to make new unique interpretations. This can be seen to a much lesser degree in The Hobbit with hobgoblins, which are smaller variations in real life lore but another name for the larger goblins in Middle-Earth (at least until they were all just called orcs and the distinction no longer mattered). Also, it did seem that the earlier version of vampires mentioned retained the blood-dripping throat without a wound to explain where the blood comes from. That pattern of behavior fits with what we know of Tolkien's habits, though obviously this particular matter got much less attention than, say, the origin of orcs.
I think it could be more simple: Vampire bats, species of the subfamily Desmodontinae, are leaf-nosed bats found in Central and South America. Their food source is blood, a dietary trait called hematophagy. Isn´t it possible that JRRT read about them or did have a friend interested in bats?
Well, of course, we all know of vampire bats. The fact remains that there are vampires in the Legendarium who are humanoids and there's a bit of mystery about who and what they are.
When Luthien disguised herself a Thuringwethiol, this means A: there was no fear of Thuringwethil actually showing up (so we assume she was dead), but B: the forced of evil were not surprised to see her (so we can assume she is not dead). SOLUTION: Thuringwethil was an idiot with no sense of direction who got lost one day. At roughly Fourth Age 68, she returned to the Lands of Men in a cloud of shadow and terror, and asked: "Where's Beleriand? Did something happen? Uh, can you direct me to Utumno? Maybe Morgoth has a few answers? Uh, what about Sauron? I used to work with him. Why does the horizon curve now? Wait, is tthe king here married to that Luthien girl? What's going on? Help? Somebody? I've been in Far Harad for a while by accident." She eventually retired to a nice little home in a farm where people gave her books and kept trying to explain things to her. She eventually took up gardening and baking.
I have some fanfic alternative story ideas about some sort of vampire wraight-being that actually lead to some very unknown side-story line happening around the time when the Watchfull Peace time ended but just before the One Ring was found by Gollum/Smeagol. There Gandalf has a secondary very secret mission tasked on Melian after she met him in Valinor before he went to Middle Earth, as she has some regrets about something she unwillingly left behind when she came back to Valinor after the death of her husband. There the Silmarillion states she returned in plain despair after loosing all she loved and lived for to stay in Middle Earth and since her husband was death and her daughter was a mortal, she didn´t saw anything good to remain there, however it seemed always to me that she went away from Middle Earth TOO MUCH PEACEFULLY RESIGNED to Valinor, so I think the whole story is being missing SOMETHING. Therefore as she leaving the Middle Earth she gave back a swiftly back-view to her past and her former domains in the world and so she left all her negative feelings and an unspoken heavy curse of doom against Middle Earth on both their foes and former allies, with dense rage itself that manifested into a WRAIGHT creature, a vampire being of all the power of Melian turned evil and pure HATE and DESPAIR left behind as she left into Valinor as a curse for EVERYONE just helping to do cleanning in the world to doom it, before a new start later on. So many years later, after having meditating better in Valinor, Melian decides to finish his creature formed of her power of hate and sorrow, on Gandalf behalf as eventhough when Sauron might be defeated someway or another, this being of her darker former mightyness, will endure doing a furtherly constant threat to everyone in the world. However for this task, he might need unexpected help so eventually they need to gather some special weapons actually builded by the enemies who developed to defend themselves too, as both Sauron and Morgoth feared HER, but never were able to use on their own but hid them in several scattered places in Middle Earth to create an armor and proper weapon to stand against her. The lead party working to lead this task is a mixed group of a lonely Hobbit guy, older-side relative of Bilbo Baggins when this was very younger, and well a lonelyner as he is a gay guy pretty much repressed into asexuality. a Dunedain-related Ranger-Hunter who actually is the very last live descendant of the Cardolain princes (so aside of Aragorn´s lineage from Arthedain, he was another royal-blood rogue hero as him) and well both the Hobbit and the Wild Men form a relationship between them, which helps them a lot, as pivotal to stand better against the powers of seduction and dooming of the vampire-sorceress of the shadow of Melian, although the human was a bit failling a while as he is shown being rather bisexual before accepting better on his mate love. And there is a third party member of an Elven lady hunter - pretty much as Tauriel - who does a bit of distraction on the human dude and was the very original tasker of the duty of hunting this evil creature by Gandalf, however she being pretty much asexual initially, and later on shown actually lesbian, as she is also doomed under the seductive spell of the evil wraight lady and which proved also fatally for her, but it´s on both her friends, and specially the hobbit to finish her. As side issue, Sauron as the Necromancer actually has a meeting with them helping to gives them furtherly support on where to find the weapons to defeat her, as a potential threat to him too, as she is also gathering power on her own to do more accurate plotting to doom Middle Earth, rather than her initial mission of just wandering elsewhere forever bringing chaos, death and doom on whoever she mets and stumbles on, being that human, female, male, children, elve, dwarf, orc, Ent, just whatever inteligent being alive in the world and even to set on control on other wraight like creatures on her command too. In the end, the task is done well although the original tasker has passed away, the Human ranger is very ill as Frodo was so he along his mate are given the award to go to Valinor in place of the Elven lady deceased, and well, that´s how Gandalf first ever acknowledges about the importance on Hobbits alone. But the story is kept silent because is a very unnusual one which shatters all what could be known on to preserve as worthy in Middle Earth conservative values because: - the heroes weren´t a straight couple but won because were a male couple mostly - the villainess was a shadow set to do more doom from one of the more praised on beings in Middle Earth story, as Melian set up to do more harm into the world in despair for her own personal sorrow and rage - the weapon to defeat her was done by the Enemy and they actually helped them to locate it, although the Necromancer hid well his true identity and secret on what they said to Gandalf in the end, but he acknowledged that.. their help came from darker and forbidden sources. So the story was recorded but set apart into deep secret and only will get known much later in the future when the world has changed so much a lot, that then better open-minded readers could stand supporting on these grey-complexities for knowing how good was done after all.
😂Based on the comments I receive, people either seem to love the voice or complain about it. Thankfully, most seem to enjoy it! The phone book might not get me any views though ;)
yeah I got the idea that she, Thuringwethil the Vampire Lady messenger of Sauron, was defeated directly by Luthien alone - or with the help of Huan - so she could assume freely the disguisse of her so she along with Beren, disgussed himself by her power as a Werewolf, were able to infiltrate into Angbad directly at Morgoth´s domains and direct pressence to retreive the Silmarill as it was Thingol´s request for giving-up the right of Beren marrying Luthien officially. It´s never ever stated what happened to her anyway, but she is never later mentioned then after Luthien disguisses herself as she, so I guess Tolkien missed to build up a great confrontation between both magical ladies on opposite-sides were Luthien proved all her Maiar and Elven heritage to be too much of a simple Vampire foe, eventhough she was also pretty unique on her own.
The de Havilland Vampire was the first jet fighter in RAF service - a big enough event that Tolkien would have likely at least seen it mentioned in a headline in a newspaper or heard/seen on a newsreel.
@@TheRedBook Going back to read the text it definitely says "Fingered", but you definitely pronounced it as "Feathered." The word Pinions also tends to mean flight feathers, although when I looked it up I found it can also refer to the outer part of a bird's wings from which such feathers would grow. I don't think I've ever encountered the term pinion used for a bat wing.
@@magister343 Went back to listen there. I definitely say 'fingered'. Perhaps my accent is throwing you off? I've never heard of that term being used for bats either. edit - it seems the 2nd time I read the passage, I do say feathered. My mistake!
@@TheRedBook Heh, I heard you say "feathered" last night, and I thought I read it as such too, but I guess I was too tired to read correctly - so I started picturing feathered vampires, thinking it an odd choice of Tolkien's - not as hard to accept as feathered dinosaurs though. I just played it again after reading this though, and you read it twice - I think Magister343 was reacting to 4:39 where you say it differently then you do at 0:15
@@MagusMarquillin that's strange, it does sound like I say feathered the second time. What's even stranger is that another channel talked about Vampires recently and he said feathered too. Wonder if reading these words on the screen trick the brain or something?!
Great video! However vampires as such I always felt were a bit out of place in Tolkien’s works. I feel they clash a bit with the overall more northern feel of the mythology, if that makes any sense :)
It does. I think it's that word Vampire. If he had picked another name for these great bats or people shapeshifting into bats, then there may not be that clash with what seems more eastern european.
I feel like vampires must have been one of the less thought out early features of Tolkeins legendarium, and that token would have felt the same way, I don't think the vampires necessarily stopped existing, but I think tolkein started calling them by a different name, and seeing as they were already quite different from the vampires of folklore, they would probably be unrecognizable to us without that name, perhaps for example the flying mounts of the ringwraiths in Lord of the rings, could have had some precedent in the vampires of tolkeins early stories...?
I honestly feel the same about werewolves, I don't really get why Tolkein would call these Maiar-wolves werewolves when the were part suggests some relationship to man, especially since we have seen an example of a skin-changer in The Hobbit such as Beorn is heavily implied to be, why have both skinchangers and werewolves? Especially when the nature of the so-called werewolves is etymologically inconsistent with the name, I once again think that Tolkein would have renamed the werewolves with time, perhaps the wargs were rebranded werewolves despite Gandalf mentioning them in Lord of the Rings. Perhaps by that point when Gandalf mention werewolves he was not actually talking about the werewolves of his early legendarium, but what is it that point talking about skinchangers like Beorn 🤷
No. He talked about shades, spirits, wights, ghosts, wraiths, vampires, werewolves. No talk of zombies. Closest we have would be spirits inhabiting dead bodies such as we see with wights.
I don't mispronounce it at all. Sauron is "sow-ron" with "sow" rhyming with "now" and that is how everyone says now in my part of the world. I'm not going to pronounce now like an American or an English person. Or "Saur" as in "Sour"...again we all pronounce sour this way here...so unless I change my accent, this is correct for Sauron.
Sauron is not even his first name. Before Melkor's corruption, Sauron The Abhorred used to be Mairon The Beloved, the former star pupil of the Vala Aulë himself. It really doesn't matter how the names are (mis)pronounced. Consider that Professor Tolkien himself was a linguist. His real-life appreciation for the diversity of human languages and nature is reflected in his own legendarium. The Elves, Humans, Dwarves, and his other creations are vast and diverse when it comes to language and history.
