for people with BPD, a lot of their unhealthy behaviors feel egosyntonic. They usually don’t recognize their fear of abandonment, emotionality, romantic obsession, etc. as bad things. They just feel like personality traits. I think that’s a big difference from ordinary insecurely attached people. Bpd is what happens when attachment wounds infect your whole personality.
I have dated a woman diagnosed with bpd. My next relationship was with someone I think(not 100 percent sure) was FA. I felt the bpd was FA on steroids. The push pull was similar. Both very damaging to me. But I am obviously not healthy if I stayed long term with both.
Omg I literally just watched a video earlier today about BP disorder and had the reflection that all the main BP symptoms seem a lot like the fearful avoidant, and started wondering whether people with BP are just really strong fearful avoidants. I was planning to research this further, and less than a couple hours later, you posted this video!!
@@ZiliaVingBorderlines are the unhealthy FAs, like Narcissists are of DAs, and ADHD are to Anxious. To be an extreme FA just puts you in the middle (where I am) bc both sides are AP and DA leaving. You don't have a DA leaning AP, or an AP leaning DA... So an "extreme" FA would swing AP and DA (again, me) but not do the things a BPD would do. I think my best friend growing up and my gma were BPD bc they did some crazy things before taking their lives. Neither were ever single, and I (FA) am pretty much never in a relationship. FAs don't need to be preoccupied with another all the time. An FA angry knows better than to destroy an exes car, or to stalk them at work in order for a confrontation. Think of it like BPDs are FAs who are very impulsive. The difference is saying "I'm going to kill you" vs actually doing it. Most of us know what's socially acceptable.
@@ZiliaVingI mean even if you are correct in that all people with BPD are FA (which I don't believe is true) that doesn't mean that everyone who's FA then also has BPD, so this video is aimed at FAs who wonder if they might also have BPD and from that lens there's nothing incorrect about this video
@@lmart16narcissists are strongly wounded APs. Even Dr. Ramani teaches it that way. DAs have the same response as a narcissist but those responses come from a different place. Thais has a video titled is it narcissism or dismissive avoidance. She explains it and so does Dr. Ramani
@@delicateghoulexactly. I was a strong FA but not BPD. Thais was a strong FA too but not BPD. BPD typically heals in around 6 years and I healed my FA in like 3-4 months.
Please elaborate with the view of "quiet" BPD. The outbursts of anger are directed inward on the self. I have quiet BPD and im learning all about FA now, and the similarities are very striking. Toxic shame for sure. Inconsistent parenting attachment - which mom will i get today, and why is my father not emotionally available (leading to no self worth). So wanting the love and connection combined with an intense deep fear of it. That FA anxious/avoidant "flip flop" is the same as the BPD hot and cold. It almost seems to me like quiet BPD is an amplified version of FA.
I'm a quiet BPD male, FA, etc... It's all intertwined to me. I'm now 42 and, instead of being 'cured', I've instead found some peaceful acceptance of it.
I'm curious as to why the DSM V did not also include the fear of engulfment that is often reported to be coupled with a simultaneous fear of abandonment in those with BPD. Because those with BPD were often used in childhood as their unaware parent's emotional caregiver (directly or indirectly through scapegoating), they could see closeness as consumptive or downright dangerous. When you include the fear of engulfment being juxtaposed to the fear of abandonment, it's easy to see why the relational behaviors of someone with BPD could resemble the swings you see in an FA attachment style. There's typically a real fear of intimacy in both because most FAs and BPDs haven't had safe intimacy, thus creating the need for the attachment style or "disorder." While AP attachment style does align more with the primary fear of abandonment seen in BPD, FA would align more with the co-occurring fear of engulfment and abandonment. It is intriguing yet sad because though different, BDP may primarily be a complex trauma response just as FA is. No child deserved the conditions that created either and every adult is worthy of healing from them.
I have heard this! A friend w/BPD did mention that their mom was so dependent on them for emotional help/support. The mom played helpless and like a victim that nobody loved, and the bpd friend would be the rescuer. She really got messed up from all of that, it wasn't until later in life that she was starting to unravel it (she unfortunately passed from cancer but at least experienced some happiness.) Her thing was constantly self-harming and very reckless lifestyle. I don't know if she feared intimacy, but she sure attached QUICKLY to people she just met.
I'm FA with a best friend who is AP with BPD and I think it's because of our similarities that we get along. The first time I witnessed the paranoid anger outburst was definitely eye opening❤
Omg maybe that's what my brother is. I've been trying to type him for a while now and couldn't come to grips with him being a FA too but just destructive.
just finished a relationship with a BPD , he was devalueing me a lot and even 'punishing' by not talking to me if things were not as he wanted. Its very sad to observe a BPD , with so many struggles, and not wanting help.. After 1 month of no contact, he contacted me to try the water, but when he got rejected , he shut down again and was again cold and devalueing. Mental ilnesss sucks... and it kills a relationship.. if you don't go for professional help.. or trying to work on yourself..
Chronic feelings of emptiness #1! Have learned to feel content within the void with increasing frequency. Then Extreme anger / rage bouts in cycles of feeling powerless. Also empathically absorbed rage from parental figure so I sense that comes up to clear too. Mostly primary anger towards having felt powerless due to relation with that parent All other symptoms too but not as strong as emptiness & cycles of anger/rage. As I was coming into recognizing I had BPD symptoms, a few were quite minimal consciously, but I realized if I didn’t have someone to romantically/sexually focus on, I didn’t do well…”favorite person” shifting to each new partner & I didn’t maintain non-transactional friendships much or not for long outside of making the new fixation into best friend role
Another serendipitously-timed video for sure. I'm currently struggling with my relationship with my Mom, who was diagnosed with BPD a while back, but chose not to believe it/start working on that. Her behavior matches up completely with the BPD behavior you laid out. Super frustrating for me as a recovering FA-leaning-DA to deal with her and empathize with or understand why she's so desperately afraid of abandonment, particularly when she's not working on her issues. Thanks for the video though, if nothing else it's very good fuel for conversation with my therapist.
My mom was deff BPD my whole life. Only until I focused full throttle was she forced to heal herself as she could no longer blame me for being poor etc whatever projections she had. She went on meds and is now so much kinder
Thais, your videos and courses have been the next stage of recovery for me as a somone in remission from BPD. BPD treatments falls short when it comes to addressing attachment injury, this channel really tackles the bedrock for us to build a healthier life once the BPD is gone. Just to add too, when you have BPD, you don't have an identity, you're like an untethered black hole - so recovery is me re-learning life again (in my 40s!), but with an identity. So a lot of the things you teach like self-soothing, identifying core needs and values have been super healing, thank you. Also - in BPD fear of engulfment is just as strong as the fear of abandonment. Both literally feel like you're dying.
I would really like to see these attachment issues through the lens of neurodivergence. More and more these attachment wounds seem to overlap significantly with people that are adhd and Autistic. It makes sense that these types of people would be more impacted by not being met in childhood. Also seeing BPD as really an magnified attachment wound. Being labeled BPD can be so damaging because of an unhelpful stigma. I would love to see some conversations on reducing these stigmas.
On your second point, check out Bessel van der Kolk who believes 85% of BPD sufferers have cPTSD and the jury is out on the other 15%. Of course Thais has a companion video about FA v cPTSD and she sometimes points out FAs are victims of mild childhood trauma.
Agree. I see neurodivergence having a huge overlap. Especially being drained by people. The reason BPD has stigma is because it's classified under the cluster B disorders which harm others (not harm the self) i.e. dark triad. And do massive damage. It's not like the dependency or schizoid disorders where harm to others isn't done but it's internalized harm so it's more self destructive
I have adhd and autism. I am an FA leaning heavily DA. I can come across like i have bpd at times. Apparently adhd and bpd can get misdiagnosed as theres so many similarities.
I heard about study stating that there's a comorbidity of ADHD and a personality disorder for 60% of ADHDers. Usually, it's BPD. So you're not wrong, but more so they can go hand in hand.
Thank you, this was really reaussuring because sometimes i’m wondering about this when i’m not regulated (typically after a abandonment). But like you said i’ll react strongly but i become avoidant and never seek the person out again. I didn’t fit with any of the traits of a BPD. I had a friend with this disorder and i remember walking on eggshells and feeling trapped in this friendship
Ok video request, can you have a video like the ross and rachel one where you show a clip that looks like a fearful avoidant and analyze it? It would help me immensely visualize what you are talking about and what you mean by a lot of things
Its great Thais is making this video! I have seen in certain cases people over diagnose people with FA attachment with borderline and that shouldn't be done!
My sense of self was my military rank and career. When i reluctantly retired it destroyed me. I felt completely lost. took me years to cope and 11 years later I still struggle.
I have BPD, and like Thais said i am AP with secondary FA. It's a terrible life to live. People hate you for the things youve done without realizing that you were driven by subconscious wounds and didnt really have a conscious choice. Nobody understands the pain, the emptiness, the fear in the life of a person with BPD. And healing is not so easy, honestly if i had a choice i would rather not live.
One of my siblings has BPD, and I at one point was a fearful avoidant with a minor dismissive avoidance (fforgot how we phrased that) but without BPD. So they looks more stereotypically fearful avoidant then me haha but we are different.
I think it’s a case of many of those with borderline personality disorder have a fearful anxious attachment style but not everyone with fearful attachment style has borderline personality disorder. And there are numerous circumstances in which someone may develop borderline personality disorder. It’s a quite a meshy kind of subject and not as clinical as many would wish. But differences can be teased apart.
Wow this is really fascinating! Without naming names, I had a 10 year relationship with a guy, that started off with off the charts passion and closeness, but gradually became toxic and ended in violence, mental and physical abuse, and suicidal behavior. During that time I didn’t know about attachment styles or BPD. Armed with thst knowledge now, it’s really interesting to compare the two, because I now identify as FA (on my way to becoming secure), but my former partner (who was never diagnosed) probably is BPD because he clearly meets all 9 of the DSM criteria for BPD. It’s fascinating how accurately this article compares me to him. Every point is well articulated, and spot on matches what I have experienced. Can you imagine an unhealed FA and an undiagnosed BPD trying to be in a relationship with each other? Omg there are not words to describe that kind of roller coaster!
i was fa now secure/fa and this is great for clarification. i’m interested in learning about da with DID/MPD because there seems to be a correlation there as well. hope to see that video in the future :)
Yep, I've seen people convinced that BPD and FA's are the same, but there are clear differentials. The mood shifting/swinging is one of the biggest things I see. There's also a lot of self-harming I have experienced seeing w/BPD friends. There also seems to be a big element of paranoia/unreality/depersonalization in bpds.
BINGO Thais! Where I'm at right NOW - have had psych eval. Discerning FA vs. BPD not easy. Also discerning between personality or mood disorder for me difficult even for experienced clinicians I'm told.
Very good content, as always. Would it be possible to compare a quiet BPD with a FA? As I have found out that the quiet BPD's symptoms are much more inwards could be even more confusing with FAs.
I have the strangest story. This is definitely on a continuum. I am pretty sure I was FA and as I accumulated more extreme trauma (bot relational and medical), I started to develop the dissociative-symptoms. Then I suffered a mild traumatic brain injury and something went off about the identity stuff. It feels like some of it could be environment, like being so restricted I cannot develop a identity and I lost my old one, but another feels organic, like there is a part of my brain that used to be able to keep the identity components together and now it can't do that without an external trigger to make me "remember my identity.". So suddenly it becomes extremely important to keep people around who activate my own identity in my brain or I can't remember who I am. Before this I was probably an FA with borderline-lite traits (concerning the risky behavior-- emotional regulation/rapid emotional shifts and fear of abandonment were not strong motivators and do not remain so). Now I feel like I am more borderline because of brain damage effects. I always hyper-emphasized relationships and avoid them because they are so destructive to me. I actually feel like most of these symptoms except the emptiness/identity/dissociation ones go away if I just stay away from romantic relationships. I've also had a few friends with borderline more severe than me and their symptoms extend to family and friendships as well, whereas mine only occur in the context of relationships. I don't know hoe to address this with a doctor because the part of the brain that was damaged was emotional memory/regulation/empathy. How do you heal from that? Does it even truly make you borderline from injury alone?
I don't look at people as all bad or all good and no self harm thoughts nor am I afraid to be alone, so no BPD figuring out it's my attachment style. 😅
Man I started to get certain that it was just FA but I feel like im just doing the work so some of the criteria is just my past self. Or maybe its still me and ive isolated myself to the point where I think im someone different. Dude.
I cursed out my fa partner in one of your videos. I told "f fa", Little did I know I am an fa too. Lmao. Wtf. But I think I lean more into my anxious often. She on the other hand lean more into her avoidant side.
I have a friend since 2+ years who took a test (and didn't like Thais but that's another story) and received majorly the FA score. She's been doing therapy and she self-diagnosed as having ADHD. But I don't see any signs of anxiety in her, ever. I understand that it's not a romantic relationship but not even once did she express any anxiety, however a very strong degree of avoidance. I don't know how she is in her romantic relationship, i didn't meet her partner, I'd be curious to know. So, I clicked on the title because I thought of her and now started wondering. She had a very turbulent childhood, as she said
Attachment issues often don't show up obviously outside of romantic relationships. I'm FA, leaning anxious, but most friends and coworkers say I seem very calm and cool headed. They wouldn't know about any anxiety unless I chose to divulge that, would be even more true for avoidant leaning FAs
I just want to say that avoidant attachment *IS* a dysfunction. Speaking as a secure who accidentally got involved with an avoidant and it effed me up bad. Sociopathic and narcissistic traits are harmful , even in seemingly small doses
That is incredibly true and I am sliding into the camp of rather than working with tags like BPD, FA etc. looking into patterns themselves and solve them if they are toxic. I don't know if I am a secure enough person or not. But, being with a person of inexplainable push-pull dynamics and stuff really effed me up, raked up my anxiety.
Insecure attachment styles (everything but secure) come from unhealthy attachment & poor attunement in childhood. She opens up most videos with that, so your first sentence isn't revelatory. Sociopathy & NPD are still VERY distinct from an avoidant attachment style. Attachment styles can be healed; personality disorders cannot.
Im confused by this video as you don't just lose the attachment style becuse you have bpd .... you can have bpd and have a fearful avodent attachment or anxious preoccupied.... there's even studies that state bpd can have a fearful avodent preoccupied mixer of a attachment style .... I have bpd and while most with bpd have a anxious preoccupied attachment style I have mainly a fearful avodent attachment style .... with cycles of avodent preoccupied attachment style when I'm in major bpd phase ..... so remeber not to make it seem black and white as anyone with bpd who's not in therapy could denounce there diagnosis becuse they see a video like this
Does someone with BPD actually love / attach? My x had BPD and could switch from what seemed love to indifference once engulfed, she came back after 2 or 3 months when stuck financially, things would be good for 6 to 8 weeks then she would run again over the smallest argument, BPD split while FA don't, avoidants are failed BPD based on my research
possible to me. quiet borderline looks just like FA, when they regulate emotions. Then when they show their vulnerabilities to the person she likes in the deep inside, she looks like quiet borderline.
I thought my ex was an avoidant, but i realize he was just a coward & a liar. There is no excuse for their behavior & they’re a waste of time. They are weak & cant be honest about things or communicate. Leave / run as fast as you can & dont look back
People are either all-good or all-bad. All-good is an AND operation. All-bad is an OR operation. Let allBad = actions.Any(a => isBad(a)); Let allGood = actions.All(a => isGood(a));
My question is this: If the person pulls back, just to be with another person/friend the next day, then that's not really avoidant, is it? He is flipflopping between people, not between a person and being on his own. I guess there is mild BPD too.
Do FA or BPD ppl truly have love for their partner in their good mood times? Do FA's come back when we r in NC, only if they love us or for what reason?
