Thanks for watching. If you're interested in seeing more of these portables check out one of my favourite videos here ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-NEqfLdOITAE.html
I'm an IT guy and this entire process reminds me of so many times tracking down weird issues. Makes you go insane then that final moment where you find the problem it is just amazing.
I'm from an IT background and if I had a problem where the monitoring /diag tool says it's one device but that device is showing its operating normally, then my first instinct is to look at all the other devices to see if they are working normally.
Update on the situation we had a technician come out on Monday. Me and the tech put every portable into trouble temporarily one at a time to get all the modules labelled properly. The problem module was working perfectly fine so we did not replace it personally I would have anyways, however the tech left us a spare module to put in place if it acts up again. The long-term solution is to replace the system. We did have our company that deals with notifier go through a walk-through of the building with us. So we did get a quote to replace the system with notifier. It would not be a full addressable swap, but a direct replacement with addressable smokes and modules and leaving conventional zones. But replacing bells with the one for one upgrade of horn strobes for now and then likely coming back later and adding more as horn strobes are not as effective as bells. However this summer is extremely busy with other system upgrades and annual testing as well as moving several portables school to school. so this upgrade would not be done until spring break or winter break of the 2023/2024 school year.
@@josephfrye7342 some of EST's products are not bad. Simplex products aren't terrible however their customer service is so as a company they are not good
@@nics-systems-electric Simplex is mainly recognized for their products. If it wasn’t for JCI (and mostly their business model), Simplex would be even more prevalent and probably run circles around Honeywell’s brands. But it’s nice to see the quickstart finally get what’s coming to it. Please keep it and durability test it. Plug the slc into 120v and watch the carnage.
@Marc Leslie as far as coolness and the nice sound I do prefer the bells but I have to look at it from a realistic standpoint and realize that the strobes are the future with less current draw more reliable
This is fascinating to me -- I work in the tech/IT side of systems engineering but have always been curious what sys engineering means to some of my peers in other industries! Subscribed.
@nics-systems-electric: As a fellow fire alarm tech, for future reference with EST / Kidde fire alarm panels when a module/detector, etc. goes into alarm / trouble condition the panel should also show the module's serial number (this same number would match the serial number sticker on the module itself). Granted, that is dependent on if the original installer/programmer kept the module's serial number in programming. On that type of panel, try the status button to see if additional info shows the active module's serial number. That serial number can make it easier to troubleshoot and narrow down the possibilities of what is causing the fault / issue.
That's a good call. Thanks for the tip. I admit I got complete tunnel vision looking at the labelling trying to find it that way which is obviously something to avoid while troubleshooting. and look at the whole picture. But I should've known better. I even did use the status light to check for any helpful information, I should've considered that. Thanks again for the tip
@@nics-systems-electric Skipping steps in troubleshooting... especially when on call-in was something I worked to stop doing. Gather information (Symptoms, Errors, what has happened, what steps have already been done), Question contact/user (to confirm details -- say it back to confirm it is heard/understood correctly, and as much details), Identify symptoms (as may be some not noticed), Determine if any changes have been done, if so when/what, duplicate (confirm the symptoms and errors are still there... and it hasn't just resolved itself), most important... resolve one issue at a time. At points you seemed to start, then jumped to doing something else, but with the security system and fire alarms interconnected... that would be harder to do.
@@nics-systems-electric Been there, done that w/ the "Tunnel Vision" happening. :) I recently had a Kidde VS system that would randomly pop the dreaded "System Ground Fault" message that would last for a few seconds on the signaling line circuit (SLC). Tore the SLC apart several times trying to isolate / segment down to locate the cause, and banged my head against the wall. Turned out to be a faulty switch on a sprinkler tamper valve that was causing the ground fault condition. I forget what I had done, but I had managed to get the panel to say what SLC device had the fault on it and once that happened figuring out the exact cause was super simple. It's all good in the end. :)
@@nics-systems-electric Part of it is you were too trusting in the labeling. Incorrect documentation is a fact of life. Don't be too quick to judge, but consider it when things don't add up.
No at the time of making this video there was no plans for replacement however a couple weeks after we did a walk-through with our notifier guys and got a quote for replacement but we have too many other things going on this summer that this will probably be sometime in the 2023/2024 school year
@@EASsirenVids01 yes I will most likely make a video if I'm part of this replacement project which I likely will be and as for the other comment about suppression system no suppression system has nothing to do with a fire alarm upgrade and they are only put in place in specialty areas which this building does not have any that would require such system
Obviously it's a QuickStart and I see why EST discontinued the QuickStart and I've never saw one in person. I see EST3s and EST iO panels and those I think do slightly better than QuickStarts.
Yep, one year in college I lived in a dorm/apartment that had EST alarms and panel. Fire alarms went off (whether it was a prank, burnt food, or system failure) almost every week!
@@nics-systems-electric My school uses EST, get surprise drills every once and a while. However I think this is more because of the large amount of pull stations in opened and unattended classrooms, could also be both. EST is popular around where I live
It’s cool how you can help with the fire alarms in systems are you a part of the district? How are you able to do these type of jobs? Love your videos❤
Accurate labeling is important. When the system is installed every point needs to be tested and verified for accuracy before it is signed off by the intaller, fire department and owner. annual testing should also verify accuracy. Failures of many parties led to this issue being this difficult to troubleshoot. Hopefully lessons were learned during this and this will help in future trouble shooting.
It appears that it was accurate between the sensor and the front panel, but the modules themselves were not properly labeled. Apparently that's not checked as part of the annual. Nor would it really need to be as it's not safety critical. It's just for the tech's convenience.
This was just terrible troubleshooting. He lept to a rash conclusion without any supporting evidence and then went about handling the situation as though his idea it was software was correct. This was so drawn out because his approach was miopic. First rule in a situation like this is DO NOT FIXATE. All he had to do was keep an open mind. He closed his mind and convinced himself the first thing he thought of was the answer and that decision tied him up in knots. Instead of grabbing the first thing he thought of as correct and thus not even thinking about others, he should have said software could be causing this but it might be something else entirely. And kept looking to see what else could also be the cause. He didn't keep looking because he was convinced he was already right.
@@johnrauner2515 I agree it's a poor example, but it's not like I've never gone down the wrong rabbit hole. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. He looks to be pretty young. Hopefully he learns from it.
EST may have problems however we were able to get a technician in on Monday that's the difference between EST and Simplex both can be problematic but Simplex would be a month till you got them in and then they rip you off once they were there
When he took off the module that you thought was an alarm and a portable other than 1 when it's in trouble you should have known right away that the labels were messed up.
biggest Lesson is never presume anything even in your own team/company there always going to be that one thing which slips even in years of checking verify verify verify
At 1:01:47 is the exact moment I think you may have "fixed" the glitch. Wire just fell off was what was said. And it was not one of the 2 wires removed for testing from what I could see.
I believe it was a different zone altogether even if it was the right zone it was still solid contact until it broke as the wire didn't fall off it broke off from fatigue if it had been loose even still fire alarms are a normally open system so loose contact only will cause trouble not full alarm
When playing with it the first time and tripping a different zone... me as a computer tech goes... wait... that was a different area... As I have seen many times items are mislabelled. I prefer to confirm the device is correct device as part of my early troubleshooting, especially when playing with what should have been the device tripped something which shouldn't have been related. Figuring out which device it was at that point would have saved a lot of back and forth, especially when jumping it out didn't resolve the issue. Also... as soon as I was on-site, would have made sure whoever was responsible had notified everyone monitoring (911, security, etc) that you were working on the system before I even opened a panel or touched a button.
Yes for sure you can never trust the labelling too much and that got reinforced into my mind that day and yes definitely notify the monitoring company before going hands on which in that case I was OK to start touching stuff as the system was already in alarm and had already called out so it couldn't call out again until reset
I don't think this guy has the skills to be touching a system like this. He wasted most of the day running around in circles because he decided the first thing he thought of was the answer - the firmware upgrade was the problem. From there he fixated on this to the point of being myopic. This was just terrible troubleshooting. He reached a rash conclusion with no supporting evidence to justify it and then did nothing to confirm it as the cause. Eventually hours later he isolated the data channel into the panel to see if the fault went away which it did. That confirmed firmware wasn't the problem. But he should have done that test the moment he decided the firmware was the problem to confirm his conclusion or exclude it. That's just basic troubleshooting. If you think something is the cause then figure out how to confirm it and do that. Instead he spent the day running back and forth between opposite sides of the school even to the point where the two of them actually wondered around the school checking all the smokies. That right there tells you these guys shouldn't be touching this system. The moment I saw all those remote modules on that wall I knew wrong labeling was something to watch for. Especially once he'd isolated the suspect module and the fault remained. I would have then isolated the last half of those modules and seen if the fault went away. If it did then the fault was in that last set of modules (about 4 in total). If the fault remained I'd have isolated the first half as well and seen if the fault went away. Either way, isolating one half of them (and if need be the other half) would cut in half the number that then had to be isolated one by one. to find the faulty one. This should have taken them less than an hour. I also notice in one of his comments here he's wanting to replace the whole system with a new one thinking somehow that's going to make things better. When in reality this system works perfectly fine, there's nothing wrong with it apart from the occasional defect which all systems of this size have from time to time. Guys like this can cost organizations a fortune. Not only in the man hours spent on this due to how he went about it, but also in the money he's encouraging the school to waste putting in a new system to replace one that doesn't need replacing. Again, myopia. Just jumping from one rash unsupported conclusion to another. He's blaming the system for the massive amount of time spent finding this fault and hasn't learned a thing. It wasn't the system that caused this massive amount of time to be wasted. It was him.
@@johnrauner2515 I did not jump to any conclusions not once did I say this is the problem for sure part of troubleshooting is you have to look at all possibilities
the fact that they are registered / labeled wrong really really suck ! You trust on test when it was installed would have been caught ! all in a day of headaches.
My god, that system is a piece of shit! Thank god they decided to replace that awful thing! I hope you do a durability test on it if you take it home! That would be so funny to see that system you hate so much get set on fire and smashed into pieces!!! 😂😂😂
@@nics-systems-electric Well, I know you got 2 other systems that are getting replaced this summer, that and the fact that your school district has decided to put old systems over reliably, which is bullshit because this system is anything but reliable, and the 2 systems that you are replacing this summer we’re working perfectly fine no problem!
Reminds me of dealing with all the quarks of the fire system at a large museum I worked for. That thing was so temperamental (FCI) and only myself and 2 others knew how to troubleshoot it. Made for some long days and nights.
Interesting stuff. The fact that you drive from the portables to the main school and back so many times instead of just walking is the most American thing ever though! 😂
What annoying it is for fire alarms to keep going off. I remember back in the 1990s at my high school (brand new school), the fire alarms kept false alarming with alarms in the ventilation sensors kept activating. The school ended up having to replace the system a couple of years later. How did they pick the install contractor back then? LOW BID!
4:08 if it’s connected to the network, yes. You would be able to view it on APC SmartConnect on that model. I don’t believe that one allows any other types of monitoring (self monitoring/free).
I once was at a boarding school and the alarm went off in the middle of the night. my teacher joked it could be a caterpillar... it turned out to be a caterpillar! walking inside a part of the alarm system. LOL
12:00 I was a bit confused here how you'd be able to measure the loop resistance while it's in an active measurement circuit... but then you measured 0 Ω and tripped an alarm so I guess that answers that ;-)
one little gripe about EST; in alarm or activation, the LEDS should be solid Red like notifier modules instead of blinking. Their smokes do the same thing. That might have helped a bit identifying which module is acting up. Really sucks the labeling was wrong lmao. It's either that or someone put the wrong description??
That's what was kind of throwing me off to as I am looking for solid red however we had blinking red for whatever reason I'm not a expert on EST so I'm not sure and yeah the labelling was completely goofed up
@@nics-systems-electric Yeah I get ya bro, I'd be looking for solid red as well because I'm so used to Notifier with my company, and Simplex as my hobby systems. I would have been thrown off with y'all lmao. I'm not used to EST either but I'm trying to get into them. I hope they fix that damn labeling
lol !!!! Been in the industry 35 years and this is the first time I heard of these. Good one !!! Do you happen to have any other good ones for other brands ?
Yeah man, did commercial fire alarms for many years not doing it anymore but. I want to see some ground fault videos. I was the guy you sent to find the ground fault and I was damn good at finding and repairing them.
The 3 bells pattern. Is that pretty standard in the usa? I live in the uk and we fit fire angel smoke alarms in houses, they have the same pattern, 3 beeps - most brands just have continuous short beeps. In commercial fire alarms here bells arent normally used - we have sirens or vsrious types - some are a constant sound, some are a "repeating climb" noise. But the rules are the same type must be fitted throughout a building. Amazed to see those portable classrooms have sprinklers in them! My school had some portable units but i think the rules for them in the uk are far less strict - sprinklers are required in far less places here.
@@An_Official_Scratcher that's a drill when you're at school not a big deal but this was a call out from my house on a Saturday that's why I was complaining
Have you tried completely restarting every panel ? As in disconnect power and battery, wait 10 seconds or so and then plug it all back in? Sometimes system reset might not work in my experience
No pre-action system just a wet system in the main building and dry system in the portables as well as the band hall building is a partial dry system the low air trouble is not actually there the panel just comes up with random stuff when it's resetting or has been messed with at all
My 11th or 12th grade year. Our high school alarm system had a bug and for almost an hour ever 2 to 3 minutes after being turned off, the alarm would sound again so the entire system was shut down for the rest of the day.
@nics-systems-electric there was, but it took nearly a day to figure out the issue. Being a student, they didn't tell me/anyone anything, of course. just a glitch in the system, I guess.
you had this meme sound play in your head when u accidently set off the system. meme sound plays: "OH SH**, NOT GOOD" 🤣. When Jamie said you set off the bells, and the split second u where like....... OOPS MY BAD
My high school has a EST3 from 2008, and every time I see it, it is always in a normal state with no troubles. And a golf course nearby where I went had a Simplex system that later got replaced by EST
@ 1:06The flip side to the Sun records 45 of the Gentrys Song "Cinnamon Girl" is " I Just Got The News" My copy is th emono Mix, but There was a stereo if I am not wrong Canadian Mix later released. I know 99% of every 45 and Lp in my collection. over 10k 45 rpm records and a few thousand Lps!
Well done lad, you got there in the end. As an electrician/ security tech for 30 years I have seen it all until tomorrow when a new fault will have to be solved. Some tips for you, when first arriving on-site assess the complete situation, then a plan of action. Do your own detective work, it’s easy to get lost listening to peoples opinion of the issue. When trying to identify a circuit or zone, put a short or fault on it and check panel shows same, this would have identified your mislabelling issue. Although they are probably not mislabelled, some fool has had the lids off and put them on wrong. From the UK, I have not seen that panel but I am sure I could wire and work it no problem😂. Addressable system devices with no dip switches are no good for heat of the moment fault finding. Still, it was a good video and I am glad to see it’s not just me that gets stuff like that. All the best to you.
My Friend, In Edwards if you didnt enable in the program disable event to restore to normal, you cant disable input alarm devices while they are in active, short cut way is note down device address and panel and card address and then disconnect SLC wire from panel i mean power down field device and then press reset on the panel now alarm will restore and now disable and then reconnect your SLC back to the panel. now you are good.
At my school, one time after a fire grill we went in and then it started going off again. We had to evacuate but they couldn't turn it off. So we get extra time to play We could not get in. We could only stay outside.
I didn't see it in the video, but did you check for any induced voltage? Not just coming off the dry contacts for the module, but also pulling the SLC off completely from the panel and checking. I completely understand the labeling problem though, that's quite a headache, so you're literally chasing ghosts if you don't know what you're looking for exactly.
Great video, and really relatable, in the sense of rabbithole-troubleshooting, been guilty of that many-many times in my industry as well. While the time spent diagnosing the control unit/brains of the machine could be considered “wasted time” by some, it actually provided a great learning opportunity to you (and us). Confirmation-bias is super common when doing complex troubleshooting for extended periods of time😅 Thanks for the captions that explain the problem early on, as otherwise i would have had no idea what was going on. It is sad-funny(or ironic?) that the module that was causing the alarms was right next to the one you were looking at.
