As a former NYS official who's job was to administer parts of Nav Law, I can assert that your video is legally accurate. The Barkley decision played a big role, and I was involved in several others in the Adirondacks. Great job!
Locally we have the biggest problem with marinas On lake cumberland Yet no one seems to know the laws and rights for this Its like they caterer to the business but really never prove the law as a private citizen iam unable to obtain a copy of the lease agreements with the Corp Gets really heated at times but I don't let them run me off Have been asked by FW to leave But never told to
@@williamfloyd7687 have you ever tried wearing a video camera, like a GoPro? It would be interesting to see if they treat you differently, or maybe avoid you altogether.
@@williamfloyd7687 I'm not familiar with Kentucky Nav Law. There may be state ownership, or some sort of lease or conveyance of underwater ownership to others, especially with reservoirs which were historically not lands underwater.
Perhaps legally accurate but scientifically flawed. It's comments like 'flooding is not ordinary and causes no permanent changes' is why people build homes in flood plains and along the coast and then get mad when their home gets destroyed by an 'unlucky' flood. Insurance companies are finally figuring this out and this is why many have stopped providing insurance in places like Florida.
In 20 years of tournament bass fishing I've encountered my fair share of dock Karen's who think they own everything. Had one call the cops on me saying I was shooting at her house. That was a fun conversation with police. After I showed them the video of how she was acting, threatening me, pulling a gun on me, she was arrested and charged with going to the terror of the public while armed and filing a false police report. DNR later charged her with hunter/fisher harassment and revoked her dock permit, returning later to tear it down. We had another dock Karen install sprinklers on her dock facing the water. Whenever someone would come up to fish that dock she'd turn the sprinklers on. She was also arrested and charged with numerous counts of assault, assault on a wildlife officer (since throw water on people is considered assault), had her dock permit revoked and dock torn down. This is what happens when these idiot city/suburb folk buy a lake house and don't understand lake life. Miserable, vile people.
And many of them don’t understand the harassment part. It’s one thing to think you own more than you do, but quite another to start interfering. That’s why a camera is so important IMO.
This story made me so happy. Thank you.😂😂😂😂😂 I just picture them sitting in their house Looking out the window crying as their dock gets ripped to shreds.😂😂😂😂
It's not the "idiot city/suburb folk" they are just happy to be out of the city, it's the old country hag that's been there for 50 year that think they own the lake. Just like the one in the video @0:10 seconds in. That's no city woman!!!!
When I was a Boy Scout back in the 1960s, our troop decided to paddle down a section the Canoe river (its actual name) in Massachusetts. After paddling down the river for a considerable distance, we encountered fencing which stretched completely across the river both above and below the water line. This had obviously been recently placed there by the owner of the home beside the stream. As we could not easily go through the fencing, we proceeded to haul ourselves and our canoes up on the shore and around the obstruction. Upon proceeding with this plan, the homeowner came out of his house armed with a shotgun and informed us that we were trespassing on his land. He also told us that he had created the fenced section of the stream in which he was planning to raise his own trout. He asserted that this fenced area of the stream was also his property and that we would be trespassing and damaging his property if we went through or over the fencing. This was accompanied by statements that he intended to "protect my property". This while brandishing his shotgun! The homeowner insisted that our only recourse was to turn around and paddle back upstream. However, this was not possible given the flow of the current, the width of the stream, and the stamina of the CHILDREN paddling the canoes. After some VERY calm negotiation by our Scoutmaster, the homeowner allowed that "just this once" he would allow us to haul our canoes out and around his fences and proceed downstream, but that if we ever came back, HE would call the police. Upon completion of our canoe paddle down the Canoe river, WE reported our encounter to the local police! They, in turn, investigated and referred the matter to the Massachusetts Fish and Game folks. I was not privy to the final resolution of the issue but was told that the homeowner dismantled the fencing and acknowledged that he NOW knew that that the river was PUBLIC and that HE could not arbitrarily block it or claim that anyone was trespassing upon it. p.s. I have always found it amusing that the name of the river provided prima facie evidence of its navigability.
I love the balance of avoiding disturbing others who are actively using the space, while also standing your ground when asked to leave. Too many people are just obnoxiously confrontational as long as the law gives them a right to do so. There are times to assert your rights, and there are times to just be considerate.
@@thegreatlakesfisherman Yep. Now when anyone tells me they are going to call the police, I will answer "Alright, when you talk to them, they will ask you if the water is navigable. Do you know what to tell them?"
In Illinois, the navigable waterway listing is a pretty tough standard...only the major rivers and bodies of water are listed as navigable. None of the smaller streams, creeks, and even what many would consider decent sized rivers are not legally navigable.
@@thegreatlakesfishermanwow that's insane all water in my state is state owned and the land beneath it we really don't have any problems here in MD everybody uses the bay with no issues other than drunken holes
Illinois is such a tyrant run shathole. I beg anyone 'living' there to move to any surrounding state and experience the freedom the rest of America enjoys (excluding CA & NY obviously)
There is a form you can file if you think a river ought to be added. Or we could have the law changed to the traditional definition of navigable. But lawmakers will always side with landowners over the unwashed masses.
@@ThePiemasteification I am just very aware of the court and political battle that has played out with trying to get the Dupage River declared public/navigable. Seemingly not an easy thing to have done as landowners have deep pockets and political influence.
I’m 55 yrs old. My memories of fishing with my Dad go back to a 3 yrs old me sitting on my Dads knee while he baited my hook for means told me what to look for and when to let the fish take its x when to set the hook and to always wet my hand and handle the fish very gentle so it could be returned safely.. That was 1970 and in 76 he purchased a small 18 footer so we could expand from fishing off the banks or beach to larger lakes , bays and on calm days along the beachfront. When I was 20 I bought my own first row out and in 1994 my own 18 ft center console with a bunch of rod holders and a livewell… boy was I stoked. Dad passed away in 1995 and I miss him dearly to this day. In 2004 I purchased a 21 ft center console with all the bells and whistles and went to Mariners School for my Captains license. Istarted advertising and running charters with some of my best memories coming from Dads saying that’s the biggest fish my Son or Daughter has ever seen and or caught. Great days indeed! 5 yrs later I had a custom made boat built for me… A 27 ft Cape Horn Tournament edition and I continued to run and win Tournaments for years to come. Anyone who interferes or tries to stop another from having some innocent time on the water has got serious issues
Shockingly considering his other behavior, I think Ike handled the situation in the clip you included perfectly. Be polite, but make sure you inform them about your rights. If they get rude, state your rights and stand your ground.
Back in the 1980s an older man flipped out and fired a shotgun at my friend & I while we were fishing from a boat on a river here in Illinois. Our return fire scared him so bad he literally shit himself and called the police. We didn’t actually try to hit him, just some suppressing fire until we could get the boat moving down river. He went to jail & was fined for multiple violations and we were sent on our way.
Lol, I can imagine that happening but you don't always know with who your dealing with. Him firing a gun and you firing also even if neither or you were trying to hit the other , the other might not know and get a firearm capible of not just hitting but way worse. I'd use my mouth not a shot to argue my point. I live on a large shallow lake that's state owned with private residents homes with piers/ docks around it. 99,9 % know the law and fishermen wading or in boats fishing around or under their piers aren't bothered even welcomed and asked how fishing is. Still .1 % however just don't get it. One ties builder twine just above water from pole to pole ( I m sure he can legally do this) but it doesn't work. He has resorted and I'm sure after his evening tody thrown lawn furniture but after local wildlife officials visit he no longer does such. My favorite was the lady who came out to tell a man in his boat , she feeds the fish therefore they are her pets. He spit a stream of tobacco juice and politely told her , " well if I catch any with your name on em, I'll throw them back".
A member of my family owns a PRIVATE pond ( one mile across two and a half miles long) could be considered a tiny lake even. He also owns all the land around the pond for 2 miles outward on 3 sides and 4 miles on one side. The entire property is fenced in all around with 2 entrances to the property accessed by gates. (key info is the pond is MANMADE) He built up a bunch of cabins around the pond (20 cabins) spaced out for privacy each having a small private beach and dock On one side of the pond he built a large park/beach and a boat ramp with a few docks. He runs a cabin resort on the property. He privately stocked the pond with fish. One day while the resort was closed (covid) He spoted a truck with a trailer on the boat ramp and saw a small boat out on the water. He got his boat went out and asked the man after informing him of trespassing to leave. The man stated he had a right to fish there. My relative called the state fish and game and police. After a long back and forth the man who refused to leave was escorted away. even if a lake or pond is open to public fishing it may be landlocked/ surrounded by private property and you can not cross private property WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE OWNER .
Depends on the state and the size of the body of water last time I looked. Unfortunately, in MIchigan where I live, they can do just what you say, and I recently lost access to a body of water that I had been fishing for 20 years. Sucked big time as it was the only fishing spot in miles that has not been contaminated with PSAFs. Was a great place to relax and fish. No more, but the mega mcmansion crew now have their own private lake.
I live in Oregon and there's a lake kind of like this except the lake is managed by the state but the road leading to it is not. The road's maintained by a mining outfit and I've gotta figure out who to ask to get permission to fish there. The trout fishing there is apparently great and the road is open to hunters in the area who have permission by the owner. I completely understand the gatekeeping because lakes get fished out very quickly here.
@@masonreppeto882 Somewhere in the state or county offices that handle property deeds you can look up who owns the road and the property/land around the lake and then contact them for permission to acess the lake for fishing. If they do give permission get it in writing and have the owners contact info on it ( name phone email postal mailing address) as well as yours also give your details to the owner. Call them at least 24 - 48 hours in advance to let them know you will be on the property for fishing. clean up after yourself leave no trace pack out what you pack in.
The lady jumping in the water is harassing a fisherman, which in MN is against the law. Unknown to most in MN if you have a dock or a raft on the water, the public has a right to access it so long as they access it by water. You can walk the entire shoreline in one inch of navigable water and no land owner can stop you. Very well done and explained very well. Personally, I avoid docks and such when the owner is doing something personal there. However, if the individual harasses me I will continue to do what ever pisses them off most and invite them to call the game warden.
I lived in a rich tourist area where there was a creek that floated through town. It was a common practice to tube this creek lazy river style. The catch was that for the majority of the float the creek went through private property. This one Karen would loose it on us for floating through "her property" and honestly, after that I made it a point to float the creek again. Karen called the cops who were waiting for me at the takeout. After they saw I was just out there floating not trespassing, littering or causing trouble I went on my way. Later there was a letter to the editor printed in the local paper explaining how people have every right to float cash creek through town as long as they stay in the water and how complaints about floaters to the local pd were becoming a nuisance. I suspect the cop I dealt with wrote that letter.
In Texas kayakers and such are actually allowed to come on to the land directly next to the waterway. In order to pass blocked or dangerous sections. The law has specific language to specify where and how long the person can be on the ground nearby. That doesn't mean someone won't shoot at you. I know folks who have been shot at more bank fishing in Texas than in their entire 20+ year military career. Most shots are into the ground or likely blanks, but still a interesting anecdote.
I’ve done some research there. There has never been a legal doctrine that defines navigability in Colorado, although the Colorado Supreme Court has made generalized statements that no streams are navigable. It’s a unique state to be sure, but not making the law clear just leads to more disputes.
Maybe irrigation. Sometimes people fish canals thinking they are rivers but they aren't and are not a public waterway. I lived in Idaho and you also had to pay attention to completely closed sections of the river to fishing.
@@dbruce9035 texas is literally the number one private property state so yeah you have dumbass rules. but most states you can walkwithin 5 feet of the bank
An experience in Wisconsin in the 90’s: I worked on a farm with a small landlocked lake. An old railroad grade passed through the land. A small stream went through a culvert under the RR. Then it went through a culvert under a farm road into the lake. People, evidently, could walk down the RR grade, into the stream, over the road on top of the culvert, and onto the lake to ice fish. The owner did not want it, and reported it. But he ended up having to allow it. Maybe he did not know the law, or the game warden did not know the law, but he was forced to allow the ice fishermen onto his lake in this way. They hated him and so advertised this lake and this method of entry.
@@thegreatlakesfisherman makes sense if any water at all can be used as a travel way. It makes no sense at all if the law is “navigable waterway”. I doubt you could get a bathtub toy submarine through that last culvert. And they had to walk across the road which belonged to the farmer.
Had this happen twice to me on Lake Saint Clair. Was threatened with a hammer and one guy even used his dock pump to spay us with water. The videos were used in court.
You should probably also mention that there are some special cases in some states that may impact your rights. In some states if a corporation increased the size of the waterway for commercial purposes they have the right to limit access to that area. A typical example of this is a marina where the area was dredged out and improved for the sole purpose of securely mooring boats. This is not the case in all states but it is in some.
Nice video. A lot deals with where you live first. Different states = different situations. Here in Indiana we have part of one river (the Whitewater River near Brookville, Indiana) where the landowners actually own the river. I have been told by Conservation Officers that most rivers are alright to float on but as soon as you touch the bottom then you may be trespassing. Wish things like this were not so cpmplicated.
Yes - not every state is exactly alike. But they are similar in the designation of navigable. But there may some differences in what a state considers navigable. In Indiana, the DNR has a list of navigable waterways to make it easier for people to know which rivers and streams hold this designation. You may already know this, but the link is below. (www.in.gov/nrc/nonrule-policy-documents-npd/navigable-waterways-roster/roster-by-waterway/). Appreciate the comment!
I hear that a lot however, the US government has always claimed the water and the stream beds to the high water mark. So, a foot on the bottom is no different than a foot on a public sidewalk.
It must differ state to state?? Or depending on the "body" of water? Or possibly restricted/governmental property? Guess I have some Googling to do today lol my brother hunted golf balls in the creek running through a golf course. Lots of his friends did TOO. The #PRO always caught his friends and escorted them off the Property lol my brother "FLOATED" and they couldn't touch him 😂 lonnng ago! 😉
I am a riverfront owner and while I am sometimes uncomfortable with some of the people I see on my bank, it is their right to be there so long as they are not destroying something. littering, or such like. When you buy riverfront, that is also what you are buying into. I reckon that needs to be in the property disclosure documents just for clarity.
Had a krazy mother/daughter duo telling us we were trespassing, waist-deep in a salt water creek, that 100-ton sightseeing vessels navigated through. "My law-ya says I own it." We told them to call the cops - we're not leaving. Anchored up, lit the barbie, chummed up a bunch of spearing, haul-netted it, then ate lunch. Marine unit shows up, checks our bait permit, then informs the ladies they can be arrested for harassing commercial fisherman.
While watching this it occurred to me how screwed the people of Michigan got, by allowing OUR public lakes and rivers to be turned into Private because they completely surrounded by private property. How sad!
While I agree with the advice to stand your ground, personally I would add to make sure you stay calm and respectful, regardless of the landowner's behavior. Calmly explain your side. Tell them you understand their point of view. Tell them you respect them and understand their concerns, but you're not there to cause them any trouble. You're just going to fish for a few minutes and move along. Do not let them control how you behave. There is far more power in keeping your cool than in losing it. And if you get the sense that things are escalating to the point where the chances of a physical confrontation of any sort is increasing, know when to back off. Tell them you are backing away, but you are sensing them as a threat and you will contact the local authorities to report the interaction, and video will support the story you tell the officer. Either follow through with that or don't, depending on your own judgment.
Yeah I won’t be calling the cops. Mind your own business or find out the hard way. People wouldn’t act like this in the first place if they knew the consequences would hurt a little more than their feelings. Laws are clearly very hard for the average person to understand, so everybody just needs to mind their own business and stop calling the cops every time someone steps within 100 meters of you, it’s a waste of everyone’s time and taxpayer money.
I was fishing in a metropark once and this portly woman yelled at me that "fishing is immoral!" I responded with "that's nice" as I made another cast. She then started "skipping stones" aka throwing rocks in the water where I was fishing. We exchanged some words. I took out my fishing regs brochure, opened it to the angler harassment section and let her know I'd be calling the DNR if she didn't leave me alone. It took all of like 5 seconds of her skimming it over for her to turn around and scurry away without saying a word. Now she knows.
Kinda unrelated but related In mexico, all shores are public property, not goverment, not private, public, not even the government can tell you to leave the area, also, only if you are selling the fish you need a license, if you don't and are not takng enough to feed more than like 30 people for a day, you dont even need a license, so you get the minimum legal size of fish every day, you don't need to pay anything else than your fishing gear, this means mexico technically has free food, why? Dried branches are also free, you can make a fireplace with em, also, fishing gear is usually free if you know where to search (you can even get a boat, i found a boat engine just sitting in a trash container and only need to build a controller for it, guess what am using lol, free parts from the trash) So yes, mexico has free food
If you're ever stranded in a remote island, just rig a fishing pole and an old woman and/or HOA guy will come to your rescue. They emerge from the Karen dimension.
Just to keep this balanced, I own a lake front property with a dock. Fishermen who are respectful are not the problem. It is the ones that snag lures on my dock and break them off, dump trash that floats up on my shoreline, let their boats ram into my dock, etc that cause land owners to get defensive. IF fishermen will just show some respect to the land owners, things would be fine. I doubt they would appreciate me backing my truck into their boats while on a loading ramp but they see no problem with bumping into my dock with their boats. After the 3rd or 4th time of replacing split boards or having to remove exposed hooks from my dock so grandkids don't get hurt... well, it just gets old. So although it is clear some land owners do go overboard... they may just be fed up with boaters going overboard.
Yes, it’s too bad each state doesn’t have anything published. The problem may be that there are some nuances that would trip people up and lead to even further misunderstandings / confusion.
With regards to navigable waterways, a puble creek fed pond that resides withing private land is allows for fishing say from a kayak? As long as the creek gets high enough for the kayak to enter the pond? I am in South Carolina for the record
If the creek was at or below the high water mark, and is considered navigable, you should be ok. Here is more info on South Carolina. www.clemson.edu/public/water-assessment/downloads/Water%20Planning%20Committee%20Presentation%209-6-181.pdf
I understand that the best fishing is near docks/shore but as a fisherman just be a decent human and stay off peoples waterfront area just because as a fisherman you can legally doesn't mean you should just go to the side and cast in or along the bank. If I owned a house on the water I'd be bothered by someone being as close as you were in the opening scene.
That wasn’t me, but the lake is just like a public park or parking lot. When you park your car in a lot, you should expect people to be around it. Same with putting a dock in a lake.
In Australia, you can fish in any creek, river, Dam or lake,the thing is,no one owns the Body of water, but you can't walk on someone's property or fish on someone's property,because someone owns the land,Doesn't mean that they own the water way that runs through there property.
Oh this is a nice video! Especially to a novice like myself landowners can be very scary. Do you have any knowledge of the legality of fishing from or near public roadways (such as around culverts, in ditches that cross public roads, under bridges) and the like? When I was little I fished a culvert near my house, I never got in trouble - but I was young and that was close to where I lived and I could walk to it. Now im grown and have a car which is an obvious signal that someone is there. What is the legality of that? I heard of such things like "public right of way", but no clear indications of the distances or parameters from or near a road that this applies. Any help would be appreciated, I wanna fish every corner I can!
As long as you don’t cross private property to get to the water, you should be ok. Presuming it’s a public road, the road commission might have something to say about you fishing from the road itself (possible, but not likely). But if you can get into the water from the roadway without crossing private property, you should be fine.
@@thegreatlakesfisherman Thank you for the fast reply! Are there any rules of thumb when it comes to what is and is not private property near roads? Obviously anything posted private is an obvious marker and reference. I'm mostly concerned with how far away is reasonable from the road I can fish while not being over the ditch/creek or wading in it. I probably wont fish from the road itself if I can help it, or park where my car would cause obstruction to traffic (another consideration I have been making as I scout potential fishing spots). I wish to be as courteous to passersby and nearby residents as possible. I would probably be seen as a bit odd pulling up to fish a tiny ditch near someones home, so I avoid places in direct line of sight anyways. From what I've seen on youtube, it seems fish can be found in all sorts of places. So I wanna try em if I can without being a disturbance or break laws.
If it’s a public rd, you have the right to use the road to travel to/from places. Depending on the road, you may be able to find county maps showing the width of the road right of way. These are usually measured from the center of the road. In which state/county are you located?
The following link provides maps of state road rights-of-way (www.dot.state.mn.us/maps/gisweb/row/) Couldn't find anything at the county level so you'll have to do more research there. Just be aware that even if you are legal, it doesn't gurantee that people won't be upset with you. And while the road is to be used for travel, it doesn't mean that you can park anywhere you want, so just be aware of that.
For a few years I lived on a small lake within a gated community. The unwritten rule was that you didn’t fish any closer to a yard than the end of their dock. Even though the law may be on your side to fish right up to someone’s yard, it is rude as hell to do so without at least asking if they mind. Common courtesy goes a long, long way.
If people are outside enjoying their time on their property, I agree that it would be rude to move in so close. However, if you are not there enjoying the day and I come along to fish that area there is nothing wrong with it. The lake is there for me to enjoy every but as much as it is for you. Just because the law gives you rights to build a dock, etc, it doesn’t make that area exclusively yours. Make sense? If a buffer is warranted along a property line, why wouldn’t the buffer extend onto the private property every bit as much as it should out into the lake?
The owner of riparian land owns the bottomland to the “center” of the lake or thread of the river, subject to public rights of navigation and use. Riparian owners can install a dock, with required permits, to reach navigable water but cannot interfere with the rights of other riparian owners or the public.
Riparian rights… in this video apply specifically to the Great Lakes. Such private property rights allow public access to the normal high tide waterline. However, such access does have limits (such as access to but not always use of the area between low and high tide… e.g. placing a towel out and sunbathing). Riparian rights (livestock, mineral, etc) are also unique per jurisdiction. This is especially the case for streams/rivers/creeks (permanent v seasonal flow), lakes/ponds (private/public e.g golf courses, quarries, man-made ponds, fisheries, etc.)…
@@thegreatlakesfisherman It’d be GREAT to see the exact counterpoint to this. Knowledge is power. littoral rights vs riparian rights, real estate, etc. Specific definitions, public trust doctrine, depth/width, common law, Navigable waters (log test size/dimensions), stream width/depth, historical use (and implications of that easement on rerouted streams due to farming/housing developments), real estate definitions (midpoint, easement vs trespass), and where to find local answers (DPNR, county clerk/recorder/assessor/gis/…), etc.
While I’m on fisherman’s side here, I do have a question in my head What if fisherman is casting up to persons dock and boat and banging their lead weights off the side of the boat ? What would be repercussion for that as boats can generally just take off and it’s hard to know who they where
That’s true. But it’s just like banging someone’s car door in a parking lot. You hope the person would be honest and leave a note if damage is done. But there are no guarantees. It’s a risk of putting things you own in public space.
It's comments like 'flooding is not ordinary and causes no permanent changes' is why people build homes in flood plains and along the coast and then get mad when their home gets destroyed by an 'unlucky' flood. Insurance companies are finally figuring this out and this is why many have stopped providing insurance in places like Florida.
Again, the point is, vegetation doesn’t change from a temporary flooding event. So this will not change the ordinary high water mark. Has nothing to do with insurance or property damage.
it's so sad to have this kinds of issues, in Argentina most rivers and lakes are public and property of the people, and there's only few to no constructions in it's shores. and no sight pollution. hope it remains this war for a long time.
As a fisherman and us citizen, it's important to know your rights. But if ice fishing has taught me anything, it's not worth it to risk your life for a stupid fish. If someone comes out upset that you're fishing their dock then just move on to the next one and report them. Don't needlessly put yourself in a potentially dangerous situation, especially when you have a whole lake or river to fish.
I agree with what you are saying to a point. If there is a physical threat, leave. But one of the reasons that some people are victims of bullies is that they cater to the demands of the bully. This just leads to more bullying. Be respectful, but it’s important to stand up for rights. Otherwise, you lose them.
What about pier access and floating raft access? I understand that if it's a pier a private pier that goes into the water, you can't cross the property to access it, but you can dock to that pier. Is this true? A floating raft, I understood that if it's in the lake, that you can use it. Am I wrong?
I don’t see why you’d be allowed to use anything you don’t own unless it was something provided by a public entity and designed for public use. For instance, if I put a deer blind on public land, that doesn’t give someone else the right to use it. If I leave my car parked in a public space, it doesn’t give anyone the right to sit in it or drive it. I don’t see why it would be any different with a raft or pier that is privately owned.
when homeowners start yelling at me, I act like im def and start using some sign language that they don't understand, I then ignore them and they just walk away.
I'm a fisherman. If a landowner or a dock owner requests I not fish in their area I move on. Yes you have the right to fish there but that doesn't mean you have to. A little respect and courtesy goes a long way. Personally, if I own a dock and I have installed fish attractors around my dock so I can have a stock of fish available I would rather not have some guy in a boat spotlocked on top of it every day.
The act of putting fish attractors in the water, by default, displaces fish from other areas of the water. To do this, and then expecting others to stay away - well, I think you can see the issue.
In New South Wales, Australia we have different laws on this subject. Waterfront property you own up to high tide mark. If however, you have a jetty/wharf you lease (paid via rates, not cheap) the area to the end of jetty/wharf to the width of your land. It is then by law deemed private property for width of block to end of jetty/wharf. That means you would be trespassing. This would include casting into the space. In most cases you'll find the landowners don't mind if you first, bit of old-fashioned respect goes along way.
@@thegreatlakesfishermanha-ha now that's a stretch. It only effects a small amount as most areas the local councils won't allow jetties. Revenue collected by council though is ridiculous. Wealthy? not always the case, depends on if it's property in city or out in boondocks (by 2 zeros). Lifes too short to worry about the grass being always greener as there's plenty more fish in the sea.
Crazy you have to lease the land. The law is a consequence. As its private the owner can be sued if someone hurts themselves etc too. Same as commercial operations like oyster leases, ferry terminal etc. Have to pay insurance, upkeep blah blah. Using manners and asking normally works. If not let it go and fish somewhere else. Lifes to short. Regardless I'd rather be fishing somewhere else in peace instead of pointlessly arguing with some random cranky.
My family owns a really expansive lake property thats very old. As a result there are now many extended cousins and other relations who are part owners because of how many generations the property has been in the family. One of my great aunts X times removed or whatever is a total dock Karen. The property goes around a secluded cove, and fishing boats come into the cove somewhat regularly because it has a lot of features like branches that hang out low over the water, large boulders on the shore, and a few structures in the cove itself. Even after we have explained to her that we dont actually own the water in the cove she'll go out on the dock and scowl at the fishermen and make snide remarks at them. I try to balance out the karma by going out every once in a while and pointing out where the big rocks are underwater and where the old sunken rowboat is roughly located, asking them how the fishing has been etc. I really dont understand her. Ive never seen a fishing boat come into the cove while we were swimming in there and none of them are ever blasting music or being obnoxious. Live and let live ffs.
Well said and well done! Most fisherman are respectful of your space when you are out enjoying the day (just like anywhere). And we do ourselves and all of society a disservice when we aren’t. And the same goes for dock owners. Good for you for helping to lighten the tension!
In Louisiana navigable and tidal water can be owned. It is the only state where this is the case. It is a big problem in the state. Large tournament organizations will not have tournaments here. A real shame!
It'd be useful to know what the federal rights/laws are, and what are state rights/laws? I know there are Federal 'navigable water rights', because of their significance to the Boundary Waters between Minnesota and Canada. Perhaps there are some general Federal laws and States can establish their own interpretation of 'Navigable', 'High Water', etc. ?? it'd be useful to know what the Federal laws are that apply everywhere (hint: suggestion for another video ;-)
How I’ve understood it is you can own the land but not the water. My great grandfather owned all land around a lake for miles. The city forced him to put in a public landing to the lake even though there was no access to the lake unless you went through his property. Didn’t matter that the lake was on his land and surrounded by his land he didn’t own the lake and had to let people use it.
A point you didn't mention is that boaters have the right to disembark from a boat and cross private land in the event of an emergency or trouble with the boat, waterway ETC.
Good point. I guess my assumption was that in emergency people generally do what they need to do. But a great comment for those following these comments!
I've argued that one while tied to a stranger's dock in a gale force wind with ten foot waves. Telling him that my buddy had gone to get the trailer and taken the keys didn't work, either.
There's a dispute in a number of states what the "ordinary high water mark" actually means. In Michigan there was a lake-walker case in 2005 (Glass v. Goeckel) which was a SPLIT decision. The dissent was quite heated, very well researched, footnoted, documented and reasoned. That justice explained that "ordinary high water mark" in the common law applicable to Michigan means where the WATER ACTUALLY IS. If one has the right to be in the water, up to the OHWM, then he must be standing IN THE WATER as it reaches its high point. The original 13 colonies were NOT IN AGREEMENT on this. So whatever state you're in must go back to the common law of WHICHEVER COLONY your state derives from, and the decisions of courts must be based on that colony's interpretation of the common law as carried over from England. It is NOT universal. And courts make mistakes. Glass is a MISTAKE, and will be overturned one of these days.
The definition of navigable waters versus a meandering stream is determined by the EPA. This commerce precedent in Michigan is very interesting to me. Even though in Iowa there weren't a lot of logs floated, although every river likely had some, they did harvest clams in my little river, as well as hydro electric power. I'm wondering if a past commerce use trumps an EPA designation?
@@thegreatlakesfisherman The Supreme Court says the question of navigability is a FEDERAL QUESTION. Utah v. United States; United States v. Utah; N. Carolina v. Alcoa Power Generating. If that's true, and states are determining it, it would seem to be a problem of Constitutional scope.
@@notmyname3883 yes. However, according to the Public Trust Doctrine, there are additional waters added by each state. nsglc.olemiss.edu/projects/waterresources/files/overview-of-the-public-trust-doctrine.pdf
I undertake in two activities that is laden with karens in opposition with no good reason as to why. Fishing and Mountain biking. My favorite is when I'm on a sanctioned government provided mountain bike trail in a sanctioned mountain bike park and some idiot comes out of nowhere with a camera all "I've got you on video, I'm showing the police, you tired to hit me" and I'm all "well you might not want to do that. There're fines for walking on these trails" and that's when the "I can walk where I want" comes up like clockwork. Nothing better to do with their time.
@@thegreatlakesfisherman - There's a creek, river, or pond at the bottom of every hill, and there are a lot of hills. There's trout and salmon fishing in tiny creeks that go through fields towns, and people's front yards. Some land deeds end at the water, some go to the center, some cover the whole bottom. They had to set it down for all the drunk lawyers out in the bush.
You should do the tidal waters also , International law says the land owner has no say to no trespassing blow the high tide mark , in other words any one can access land that is available during low tides ,
As a fisherman I want to be able to fish docks. As a dock owner I don't want any boats loitering around my property. As a landowner I don't want anybody stepping into my backyard any different than if I lived in the city. Perspective is everything.
Perspective certainly makes a difference, no argument there. But that doesn’t mean all perspectives are reasonable. The water Is for everyone to enjoy. If I put something in a public space, I shouldn’t expect the public to stay away from it. That’s a selfish view (taking part of the public space for my own) and not reasonable. Its lack of reasonability is likely the reason it’s not law.
Every state is different. Louisiana for example, if someone even claims to own the area, you have to leave or it's trespassing. Even if the water is 5-10 feet deep, and you drove your boat in there from a public launch, it's trespassing. Colorado is another one. In the mountains there are streams that cut through private ranches and also marks boundaries between multiple private properties. The rule is, everywhere it's a boundary, each property owner owns up to the center line of the river. So as long as you are in a float, you can cross it. But if you even touch the land in the water, you're technically trespassing.
With respect to Colorado, what you say is true for “non-navigable” streams. The problem is that the state has no formal test from which navigability can be established.
Ok, you might be allowed to. But if you are pitching jigs to boats and someone asks you nicely to stop. Because it’s his expensive boat, he worked hard for, why not just go and find another spot?
Oregon is high water mark along rivers and streams. Ive had a few land owners tell me they were calking the law. I stand where i was when approached and wait for the law to come and educate these land owners... Not one was happy that i had the right to be where i was.
i commercial catfish in western ky on ky lake and barkley lake. there is homes on the water in some areas and not in the middle at the land between the lakes federal land. but ya most people are cool and never said anything to me. one time at the marina when i was getting bluegills for bait, the marina owner or manager came over to me told me he didnt want me fishing in there. i laughed at him and said im dropping straight down for bluegills tied to the dock and im working and not going to leave. i was respectful though and ended up talking to him for awhile. but i also mentioned to him its not illegal for people to fish in the marinas. he told me his complaint some fisherman hit the boats witth baits but really thats not me so. and people with a boat should know leaving it in water where people fish is a risk to get hit with fishing baits.. if you choose to leave your boat like that. personally if i had boat and money to keep it in marina i do have boat, but i would have a lift so the fisherman hit the lift over my boat.
Exactly how I see it. It’s like a car in public space. If you park in public parking lots, you know eventually your car will get dinged. But you don’t expect people to stop parking there in order to prevent it.
In Pennsylvania a valid fishing license grants you lots of area to fish,just make sure you aren't trespassing and the camera around your neck really helps. If I know I'm right I just ignore them.
A few years back, I spoke at great length to both the PSP and the Pa Fish and Boat Commission. Both made it clear that there are virtually NO creeks or streams in Pa that are considered 'Navigable' - and that in Pa, if a landowner owns one or both banks of a creek/stream, then they can have you arrested for trespassing for walking through or fishing in said creek/stream.
I don't mind fishermen fishing my dock. I fish everywhere myself. It bothers me when people break stuff then just motor away. I had a lamp post with shattered glass from a sinker. The camera caught the whole thing. I just could make out the boats numbers. Edit: Hell even when a mink chewed all the wiring to my boat, I flagged a bass boat down that was fishing my dock. They towed me to the boat ramp and would take a dime from me.
...also in MI, last year my son and I went out fishing in our kayaks. When we returned to the dock, we noticed the water had turned blue and the bait fish had left their usual places. Next to our property is a house on a property with a 1 acre+- pond with a 5'w x 10'L access to the bigger private lake. They had dumped a blue algae killer in the pond and it flowed into our lake. As I was investigating around in the pond, a big burly woman came out screaming for me to get out of her pond because when she bought the house, it had been 'deeded' to her. BTW, the algae killer did the job for her too good. The cottonwood on the water and all the scum in the lake got blown into that pond because there was nothing there to hold it back. 🎣
I would just like to add a slight modification to the stand your ground advice, you still need to use good judgment in conflict with the potential to escalate. At least once I was extremely close to being violently attacked by either 7 or 8 angry gentlemen holding big game rifles because the guy I was trout fishing with "knew his rights". I explained the law and they still insisted that my life expectancy would grow exponentially longer the farther we got from their property. I had to drag my associate away as he refused to take "get out of here now while you still can" for an answer. Apparently where he is from people never disappear without a trace near pig farms.
Agree 100%. If you’re being physically threatened, there you should back down and remove yourself from the situation. Out of curiosity, was any of this recorded?
GOD giving RIGHTS is above all laws of the land, but yet we pay a fee every year to fish, or we will get fined, or jailed, what's wrong with that picture?
@@thegreatlakesfishermanthat's what they want you to belive. Think of this. Millions is spent on yearly stocking. They stock sterile fish for a reason. So they get more budget next year. Oh they can't breed and die within the year aww no I guess we need to stock more.
@@pain_weaver lakes that are stocked generally have native populations as well. But the natural balance doesn’t let them grow to numbers that are sustainable with a population that provides a good fishy. That is the reason they’re being stocked in the first place.
@@thegreatlakesfisherman sorry but DNR can't manage a fish bowl. The lake near me was a prized walleye lake. Now it's nothing but northern pike due to the DNR poaching the walleye out and stocking junk pike.
So can somone tell me on lake travis in austin tx. can i walk the shore line since the water is down like 40 feet. i have access to the water line from a private dock. can i walk the shore and fish anywhere i want?
You might find this helpful. tpwd.texas.gov/publications/nonpwdpubs/san_marcos_river_taskforce/media/Riverbeds_and_Banks.pdf Based on my interpretation, you should be ok to walk the lake bed as long as you don’t cross private uplands to access it. But I’m not a lawyer.
Unless they are a fish and game warden or a park ranger and they tell me I'm not supposed to be fishing somewhere, I would ignore them if I'm catching fish or just slowly make my way along until I find fish.
as a land owner backed up to a navigable water way. I say that loosely bc it was used by indians for commerce but not used now. I cant dig, harm, or alter the bank or the tree roots. If I need to do something with the bank I have to get permission from the army corps of engineers. so thats another way to tell. if the ACE is involved the water is public
So you glamced over a fact i have been curious about. Yes you have access to the navigable waters but their dock or boat lift is an extension of their property. So if you're skipping lures under their structure, are you not now violating their lines?
To my knowledge, you are not. The law doesn’t differentiate boundary lines to my knowledge. It’s the equivalent of leaving a deer stand on public property as I understand it.
@@thegreatlakesfisherman I think it's an interesting debate in interpretation. I don't have a dog in this fight but if I'm a dock owner, and you a fisherman snag your line on part of that structure, can I then demand you jump in the water to retrieve your lure off my property? Can you imagine? 🤣
@@saltwaterrook4638 what happens when a neighbors ball lands in your yard? You can’t make them get it. Most people recognize that for things to work in a populated society, people need to be reasonable. If you build s dock on a public lake, it’s not reasonable to expect people to stop fishing in the area. Just like when you buy a house on a golf course, it’s not reasonable to expect that golf balls won’t hit your house occasionally. Part of what you signed up for. Now if that neighbor’s ball does damage, you would hope/expect the neighbor to pay for damages. And as a lakefront landowner, I would hope/expect that you pay for damage to my dock. Realistically, that’s not always going to happen. But that’s the world we live in.
Good common sense here. Unfortunately these laws are changing all the time and vary from state to state. Check your own state's easement laws because there are areas in my state that I can no longer fish where I could 30years ago.
I figured if people freak out about fishing in the river behind their house, thats like them freaking out about driving on the roads in front of their house
Stand your ground in something like an automobile traffic situation dispute when you know the law is on your side and something unexpected could happen. In the driver's manual it states yielding instead of standing firm. It's a different situation because your situation involves a right of way in an easement situation. So, traffic right of way actually describes doing something different... Likely because starting a fight or being rightfully rigid with moving automobiles could involve a great deal of inertia and mass doing bad things. Whereas, drifting along in a boat doing one mile per hour at best, while the other party stands on firm ground really doesn't create the same physical potential problems.
@@thegreatlakesfisherman some may argue that state law dictates. And, likely a lot of people (non fisherman) are more familiar with state law driver's guidelines. Therefore, some *could* try and argue that "standing your ground" isn't really taught or used in other situations (like driving). So, I acknowledge that premise but I then follow up with "there are no heavy machinery involved here" so, though most state guidebook tend to lean toward yielding when possible to avoid confrontation, here, it is more likely a case by case situation.
@@russchadwell I see what you are saying now. Thanks for the clarification. And I agree with you! And the video’s advice to not be bullied comes with the obvious caveat that if you are in danger because of a physical threat from the landowner, you should just leave and report them. But otherwise, leaving just encourages them to continue bullying.
@@thegreatlakesfisherman yes. On dry land similar things crop up with respect to easement right of way. Specifically, with regard to trespass, a land owner must make it abundantly clear that his/her private land has no easement by posting no trespassing signs, fences appropriately marked, and, Yes, confronting would be trespassers. If this isn't done, an easement across private property can begin to form, such that later standing firm on turning away people could be unsupported by law at that point. It's possible, these home owners believe they are ensuring no easement is created. But, just as you say, the waterway easement is ALREADY there! After that, it's just a matter of how much by the book you want to go with handling the overzealous homeowner.
@@russchadwell I think you are referring to “prescriptive rights.” Yes, and I think this would apply to situations where an occupied home is not present and the property is not monitored. Or where the homeowner keys the fisherman go. I think in Michigan these rights take effect when you have been using property unchallenged for 15 years.
I’ve said for decades I can’t believe landowners are legally allowed to construct docks on public property. It’s amazing. The only logical reason such a right exists is rich people (landowners) define the codes. But now, after they have this egregious right to build structures on public land, something they should never have been allowed to do imo, they now kick people out of the area. It’s really horrible. I love it when I see fisherman fight back instead of putting their tail between their legs and hightailing it out of there. Screw these landowners.
I think many of these landowners think they are entitled to the lake bed and it is the fishermen that should be thankful that they have a right to use the water at all. They have it backwards.
@@thegreatlakesfisherman it’s public property. Why would the fisherman need to feel thankful. Maybe I didn’t understand you because that sounds rather absurd. It’s people who build things onto public property and call it theirs that’s the absurdity. Like it said, it would be no different than building a shelving unit in the hallway outside your condo and then getting upset that people walked by your shelves. It’s absolutely asinine. The policy obviously only exists in this illogical way because rich (landowners) control everything
@@thegreatlakesfisherman oh forgive me I may have initially misunderstood your comment. Anyway it was a very well put together video. I think video like this are very useful as people need this information to be able to exercise their rights to fish in many cases
In Tennessee the TVA controls eveything below the 690 feet above sea level line whether you pay taxes on it or not. Most lake property owners do not realize this
Being a fisherman and having lived on a lake myself, I can say some people may come out to just make sure you are only fishing and not doing anything nefarious so don’t always assume they are looking for a fight. On Lanier there are people that will pretend to be fishing close to your dock in order to steal items off your boat (GPS, fish finder, etc) or anything else that is unsecured like wakeboards. I’ve been stolen from 3 times by people pretending to be fisherman.
Aw man, they forgot to mark Porkies Pizza Trough on that Davis Besse area map. Great video. I wonder if you've heard of any other local(Michigan) court cases on this topic. I know of at least one fisherman who claims many years ago he took a jon boat into a dead end marsh pool off the end of a lake and the homeowner told him to leave the perfectly navigable spot. He refused and was arrested when the police showed up. The judge interpreted the "navigable waterway" wording to mean that it HAD IN THE PAST BEEN used for commerce or logging, which there was no evidence of this small marsh pass doing so. He was was guilty of something like trespassing and was fined. I also think your take about "you live on a public wtarerway, expect damage" is absolutely vile. It's not your property. Keep your hooks off it and repay/repair ALL damage asap. I hope that my "fellow" "fIsHeRmEn" who operate under the 'ding cut scoot' principle start meeting their consequences when their reg numbers show up on dockside security cameras now that those are getting more prevalent. It's not your boat cover, its not your swim ladder. Clean up your mess and repay the damage or lose even more. No excuses, wannabe pros. Our rights do not extend past the water. Your last line goes for the dudes leaving trebles in docks and boats, chipping coatings, etc. Don't let your fellow anglers get away with it or they will learn to do it more.
Thanks for the comment. What I meant by “expecting damage”, wasn’t meant to imply that it’s ok. It means that anytime you are bordering public property, it’s naive to assume nothing will happen. When you park in a public parking lot, you know that eventually your car will get a dent from another driver’s door. Or when you have a house on a golf course, occasionally a golf ball will hit your house. It doesn’t mean that the fisherman should be absolved of responsibility, it just means that the landowner should expect things to be damaged when it’s in a public area.
federal law states 6 ft above the high water mark is accessible and is NOT trespassing That is in all navigable waters of the US I have been fishing up a creek in east wa and the land owner thought he could kick me off the creek. He called the sheriff, they told him if they came out there he was going to jail for sportsman's interference. Just as I told him I am not trespassing if I am below the 6 ft above high water mark. He did get a lot nicer when he saw the pistol on my hip. (He had the same one) As it was old and rare we sat down and talked about guns and fishing. Sometimes it just takes a little thing to see we aren't that different. I agree stay away from others unless invited.
