This is the start of my New Series, where I cover Historical Total War Factions that I feel got cheated and could be improved, both historically and for gameplay! (Also, I don't want this series to be: give them ports, balance units, done. It has to make them unique, historical, and more entertaining) 500 Likes, and I will do another :) Also, let me know which faction you want to see me cover next?
Just let them recruit mercenaries from their ports. Carthage was a naval empire, emphasize that. I believe I read somewhere there are accounts left that they recruited gaullic mercs in massilia.
Many Gallic tribes also joined Hannibal's ranks as his campaign made its' way into Italy, especially following each victory(showing them the Romans weren't invincible).
@@steveperez178 I don't think the engine could make it work but it'd be cool if everytime you defeat Romans your army gets say a unit of barbarian infantry or cavalry or Samnites, etc to reflect how whenever Hannibal won he got more mercs or defections from various people formerly allied to Rome. Maybe even have a unique victory based unit like Latin Defectors that is a pre-Marian Legion type unit.
They probably made Carthage weak because as the Scipii it is the first faction you face properly. Similar with Mediolanum and Patavium being surrounded by rebels instead of the rest of Gaul.
@@aaronlockley9207 Yeah bro, I actually started a new greek city states campaign a couple of days ago to remember the good ol' days. Currently, I conquered almost all of Rome, all Greece, all Anatolia, and now I'm trying to conquer all of Eastern lands, like my boy Alexander did, it is so fun!
Carthage probably the best faction in vanilla RTW for players, who likes battle side of the game, because Carthage has many diverse units, and you can combine different combinations of the fast swordsman, pikemans, cavalry and etc and etc. Greek City States best choice for those, who likes strategic aspect on the global map more. Interesting fights in many regions with many ways to unite colonies into empire, but almost in each battle you just hold the line of your armored spiky bois. I think, that it would be really nice to make option for reqruiting the mercenaries not only by General, but in cities too (with some special buildings for example). This will be both enjoyable for players and historically accurate in the same time for both factions.
Or just give them the iberian scutarii, cause carthaginian scutarii models and textures are already in the game files, the only thing that's missing is the unit icon. Same thing for the numidian/carthaginian archers
It's sad because Iberian infantry were actually pretty good under Carthage command. Under Hannibal's father Scutari are recorded out fighting the maniple in Sicily under the First Punic War. And for the very reason Hannibal used them as his center at Cannae. Many people forget the Iberian infantry/Scutari fought very similar to the Roman maniple just slightly wider spaces. There is a good paper on this very topic of Iberia and Rome being very similar in pitched battle only. www.jstor.org/stable/43684935?seq=1
Perhaps quadriremes as new naval unit for Carthage Regarding mercenaries, perhaps they could get a 50% discount, while their non-mercenary units are 50% more expensive and having the limit removed of the AI hiring mercenaries on the lower difficulties.
I am convinced that even the game hates Carthage. I am so sick of seeing the Selucids and Carthage get destroyed without reaching higher potential. So i decided to buff Carthage with the create unit cheat. Gave them 10+ all gold sacred band units against the romans. They fucking lost to hastati's. So i reloaded, gave them even more units, they won. But they lost half their men. Then they move back and forth with their armies, and basically invites their enemies to their capital by leaving their units outside the city. They didn't bother to defend themselves. Instead, they moved all their sacred band units to fucking Spain, capture one small city, and never do anything else with them. So i gave Carthage Armoured Elephants maxed out full army even. What happens? The army rioted after losing to principes. #BuffCarthage
I think 3 major Carthaginian factions would be better, because Rome is supposed to beat them. Like this Carthage will put up a fight (and maybe win sometims) but Rome usually wins the overall war. Still great video!
Huh, this is a neat coincidence. I’ve never Really modded before (besides the basic text files changes in Rome), but I was actually thinking of learning how in order to make a balance / vanilla overhaul mod for Rome Remastered, and I was thinking about changes I’d make to Carthage when I saw this video.
Also, for representing Carthage’s great mercantile wealth- with the new merchant agent, just put a load of very valuable trade resources around Carthage and Thapsus.
Getting into this video I disagreed with idea of splitting Carthage but now that I’m watching this towards the end it actually sounds like a brilliant idea
Carthage still feels kinda bad to play in Rome 2, but they're done far better in that game than they are in Rome 1 imo. Libyan Infantry are actually disgusting strong.
Good. I think that this is how you will get new viewers and keep old. You always have idea for new series I very like this video. Hope to some day get a video from paradox series. Regards
If I was in charge of making a remastered Alexander total war I would expand the map to include Italy, Arabia, India and possibly Tibet. I completely agree
A very interesting idea! However, I believe that simply having Carthage start with a port in every settlement and slightly buffing their units, as well as giving them a better starting army would go a long way in making them more powerful early in the game without such drastic changes. That being said, I would love to see a mod where Carthage is split and Rome is united.
One thing that can also be easily added is simply for the carthage to have one more tier for harbour - reflecting the trade empire that they were. Let them build this massive harbour with bonuses to trade (maybe not even to navy if you re affraid of making their navy to OP)
I'd say you did great from a gaming perspective to balance Carthage as a people. I think that because they lost they are sidelined to the representation they often have in games and also due to the impossibility of making a game that accurately reflects historical truths your fix would be a fun workaround to this issue
Why would you post something so controversial but so right? Reminds me of my mini mod for Med 2. Used the Byzantine unit mod as the base, modified some provincial ownership had had a 3-way war between the Moors/HRE/Byzantines for Italy. So many armies clogging the land.
I really like how Darth Vader did in his Darthmod, North Africa has sizeable pool of mercs from all the historical locations they come from. ANd Hispania had more provinces and was much more interesting than in the original game both the whole region and the faction.
How I think Carthage should be fixed. 1. Give them better unit roster with units depending on the region they are recruited from. For instance Iberian units can only be recruited from Iberia and Lybian units can only be recruited from North Africa 2. Give them special ability to recruit mercenaries from any nation you ally with 3. Give them a unique wonder the Great Harbour of Carthage that gives them bonus to trade and gives them a stronger navy
I would split up the Carthage into 2 or 3 factions with unbreakable alliances just like Rome. Maybe Carthage itself should be like an SPQR faction with a large standing army. The Romans should get buffs when the lose territory in Italy to make them sturdy, so they won't be defeated by Carthage without help form the player.
My solution would be to have Carthage allied with Numidia at the start of the game, alongside buffing some of their units like other people have suggested. That way Carthage isn't fighting a two front war right off the bat and can focus all resources on the Mediterranean. Sure, they'll still lose to the Scipii eventually but at least most of North Africa won't belong to Numidia, who's usually the faction that kills Carthage anyways.
I agree with you on Carthage needing to be improved. I always go into the game files and upgrade the Carthaginian unit stats. Just making Iberian infantry the equal of Hastati makes a huge difference in how long Carthage survives. I also give them archers because Carthage not having basic archers is just dumb.
Add this features and its a perfect game: -an online campaign (maybe even with 3 or 4 Player Support) -better ai (for campaign and battles) -no campaign map size Restrictions for modding (just imagine a huge world map) -dillemmas from modern total war games (would give mods more possibilitys for roleplaying etc) -unit replenishment from modern total war games (with possibility to choose between this an the original system)
You are correct about the Carthaginian navy. It's my understanding, from reading I've done, that their navy was more high tech than that of Rome during the first Punic War, and that the Romans managed to capture one and retrofitted it.
I totally agree about Carthage, a power house nation, I think they could keep it as one nation but they a diverse and unique ability to recruit mercenaries, plus a tweak to reflect the wealth. Good video and good ideas
The split is a brilliant idea and would make an actual punic war over the current curb stomp. However instead of the 3 factions for each Carthiginian theater, there should be 1 in Spain and Baleria (Palma, Cordoba, and Osca), 1 for Sicily and North Africa (Thapsus, Lillyballeum, Caralis), the unique Carthage like SPQR in Rome assigning missions, and instead of a 4th make Numidia a Carthaginian family. Historically and culturally that's more accurate.
MELKOR, I really like your idea about the mercenary recruitment building for Carthage. It would symbolize the institutionalized reliance on mercenary troops and streamline the mercenary recruitment process for Carthage by suspending the requirement to move to the actual region where a mercenary unit can be recruited. Due to mechanics of the game the mercenary troops, recruitable in a building, can be replenished - that's an additional bonus for Carthage. The only challenge here would be to make it cool and strike a balance between the building "only being able to recruit the mercenaries in the province where it is" (a bit under-powered - almost redundant) vs. "being able to recruit any mercenary from the entire campaign" (overpowered). So I'm thinking this: Somehow implement a mechanic so that, when playing as Carthage, when you conquer a province you can recruit the mercenaries from that province anywhere else provided you have the mercenary recruitment building. Ex. after you conquer Crete you can then recruit Cretan Archers in Carthage if you have the Mercenary Recruitment Building. Maybe only build-able Carthage? Don't know yet. Optionally, if the aforementioned mechanic is not implementable, then a middle ground between under-powered and overpowered implementation would be recruitment of mercenaries from a wider region of provinces around the location of the building. I like how this building would make the faction of Carthage have a unique strength compared to the other factions. It would give it more character of its own. For that reason I don't like the idea of splitting Carthage into three factions because its just copying the character of the Roman factions but who knows - if well implemented it may work well. I also agree that Carthage should have some other unique buildings that would grant it stronger ships and additional trade boost like the cothon at Carthage. I'm working on some mods for the games. I'll see what I can do.
I agree with the unique boat. That would really help reflecting the carthage that is described in the game. I would also add a diplomats office or some such as a building. Allowing for recruitment of mercs and reduces upkeep for greek or balearic mercs. And access to more unique merc units like bull warriors. The carthage roster has solid cav and late game spearmen. And perhaps a market building or some trade buff to reflect their phoenician connections. Carthage is a faction that i feel never shone as it should have. "Alot of mercenaries and money" they never have any of those.
I feel like something else that would be very simple but significant would be to give Carthage a quinquereme to start with. Not a giant fleet or anything, just one really powerful ship alongside the starting biremes. Something to really give the early Roman ships a serious challenge on the sea, and prevent them from obtaining easy naval supremacy.
Another option would be to merge numidia and carthage, that is, giving all numidian territories and roster to carthage. Alternatively, turn the numidian territories into rebels, or give the northern ones to carthage. They dont have enoug significance to be a faction anyway.
I think perhaps a better idea would be to have Numidia start as a Carthaginian vassal (perhaps unless the player starts as Numidia). That way Numidia can't aggro on them from the outset and the player has more choice in how to expand/if playing as Rome if they beat up on Carthage enough, they can bribe Numidia to join the war.
New Game Mechanic: The more Balearic Slingers you have, the faster your slave population declines. The Balearic Isles map region will also receive a proportional boost in population growth. 😎
Hey Melkor! I created the Roman Houses campaign for Rome 2 which brought the RTW Roman factions to R2 and I always wanted to give Carthage the same treatment for the reasons you've described. I would love to put my modding hat back on briefly to take a crack at it with RTW Remastered
I would allow Carthage to recruit higher tier units from other factions as mercenaries, depending upon the territory they control. They could end up recruiting higher tier phalangites, celtic or numidian cavalry, or Iberian infantry. This way, Carthage doesn't need to build lots of buildings for recruiting soldiers, just one that improves as the territory expands. Lose territory, lose recruitment options. It would encourage players to expand as quickly as possible and take territory from far away for special units. Also, special building... Great Port of Carthage with massive wealth bonus and ship experience buff.
@@RocketHarry865 Great idea. It forces you to establish diplomacy for OP units. You don't get a lot of them though. Like how you would as England, do Merchant's Guild missions in M2TW, and end up with 4 units of knights. Same idea, save you could end up with 1 unit of Spartan Mercenaries if you ally with Sparta. Historical quests could also net you better or unique units. It also makes you reluctant to fight protracted wars since you have a finite supply of units.
The Hannibal at the Gates campaign represents carthage best. Client kingdoms like libya, you also have have the conflict between massily (carthage friendly numidians) and massasily (Roman friendly numidians). You can expand into iberia or try to retake sicily or do it the hannibal way. Spliting carthage is a bad idea as it was a bad idea to split the roman republic into seperat factions
Dividing Carthage that way would be great. Sure it would be a similar set up to Rome but fuck it it's fun. Rome 2 had three families for Carthage so the third family could just be the one you hadn't already picked from it.
Carthage needs better early infantry and archers. When you get to huge cities Carthage has one of the best armies out there (elephants, sacred band). Also I didn't like that Carthage has such a weak economy and it's teritory being so spread out with enemies all around you (spain and gaul attack Corduba, Julii attack Caralis, Scipii and the Greeks at Sicily and Numidia in Africa). Best tactic is to go in a all attack, whipe out the Romans first, because you don't dtand a chance against the Roman infantry with Iberians and Libian spearmen.
Definitely should be an established power at the start of the game. With a full standing powerful navy. Citizen soldiers only recruited in Carthage and good mercenaries armies in Sicily. Add that with everything you said and it can definitely make Rome buckle.
The main thing they need is a unit buff. Specifically on their infantry, when you can't even trust your basic infantry to simply hold a line, that's pretty bad. Even some barbarian units aren't as terrible as the Iberian infantry.
Whenever I played Carthage I would struggle because everything was underdeveloped and their units literally cannot compare to Roman ones. Like Iberian infantry are statistically worse than hastati before you factor in the Pila, and they're premium troops at the beginning of the game, while hastati are your main battle line. I think they'll do better in the remastered version with the balances, but we'll need to wait and see. Carthage also has a great unit roster, with a mix of sword and spear infantry, phalanxes, light and heavy cav, skirmishers and archers, elephants, it's really diverse. It's just a shame they just don't have the same numbers as the Roman troops do. Personally if we wanted to give the roster a weakness for a unique gameplay style, I'd make it so the infantry was weak but the skirmishers/archers were really good, cause Rome 1 doesn't really have a strong ranged faction except Parthia/Scythia, who use horse archers in combo with other cav Edit: After looking at the Carthaginian unit roster more closely, their main advantage is their strong spearmen, with a lack of strong heavy cavalry. Honestly with a numbers boost I think that's good, and the mercenaries they can hire make up for their weaknesses which is just as fitting. They only get spearmen at tier 3 barracks though, which lends more to the idea that they're simply underdeveloped at the campaign start
If I was to fix Carthage who is by far my favorite franchise to play with, I think it would be best to revamp Iberian infantry. But I like your idea about merc replenishment and new building
Carthage does not need to be split up. The main problem is, that their units are trash. Sure, player can take them to victory, but AI is just miserable. I am totally fine with their mainline infantry and cavalry being cheap shits, but they need a solid alternative coming from the barracks. There could be a system unique to them, that would provide a recruitment of mercenarys from the region on level 2 barracks onward. For example an Iberian Infantry would be build in level 2 Barracks located in Spain. Numidian Cavalry in Stables located in Africa and so on. Also they could have a Mercenary Camp unique building that could be build on level 4 city, but that city would have to have Stone Walls or level 3 Market. This building would bring bonuses in form of trade and ability to retrain any mercenary unit. To fix their economy, they need only one thing. Carthage needs to start the game with Dockyards, Level 4 City and with previously mentioned Mercenary Camp. With this they can actually start pretty wealthy and with strong potantial from military expansion. Also fuck Numidia, make them vassal of Carthage, give them starting position in the two desert regions and the sea bordering cities give to Carthage, give them mediocre starting force near Lepcis Magna. So player can actually play as Numidia, and try to desperately survive in the desert. Through this I think the Carthage can become an enemy worthy of Rome. I am totally sure no one will read my elaborate work on the subject, but if you, MELKOR, actually read this, can you please respond. I would like to know atleast that I had a very bad idea. Thanks in advance.
I love your idea for Carthage. I think for mercenaries an additional mechanic would be nice that represents getting troops from one's allies. Maybe, perhaps for carthage or perhaps for all factions, if you have an alliance you could hire mercenaries from the culture of your ally everywhere on the map at a discount.
Random thought: maybe allow Carthage to recruit some local units from areas they conquer. This would give them a mercenary feel without the restrictions of the mercenary system. This would require area-restricted recruitment, which I am not sure is possible in RTW, but it is possible in Medieval 2 total war and is used heavily by the Divide and Conquer lord of the rings mod for that game.
There are overhaul mods that allow for area restricted recruiting, so yes it's possible :) It should be an option for every nation tho.. rome also used alot of mercanaries and so did persia etc.. basically every nation that became powerfull did it.
The faction that protects Carthage's capital could just be Libya. I would also make a couple of border changes, I'd have Libya take place of the rebel settlement already in the game, and give Carthage slimmer and a couple of additional settlements along the coast. As well as many more settlements in North Africa. Africa is always very underutilized in Total War games, despite being a hotspot for war and conquest throughout history. In my personal mods on Medieval 2, I added more settlements in North Africa. Gave it a lot more use and made it more fun. Like say the Reconquista. It could stretch into North Africa. Vanilla game you just take out the Moors in one or two cities. The additional cities gave it a bit more challenge. Similar should be for Carthage in Rome 1. Carthage is definitely underrated.
Is there a way to do separate factions within a nation, *without* doing it by giving each one separately controlled territory? Like have recruiting be based on prestige and gravitas or something, with mechanics that affect the "mercenary" pool? Just a few ideas. Pretty far out, I know. No doubt a lot of scripted features would have to be put in, to make a workable game.
I agree. Separating Carthage into smaller factions like Rome might have had the AI less confused on what to do with them. And yeah Carthage's units early to mid game... Yikes. Not great. Carthage only gets strong late game, really.
Carthage also needs a unit roster with actual balance. I get that they are not necessarily a ranged combat faction, but when practically every other faction (including the Helenistic factions) have at least basic archers while the North African factions (and Spain) don't is quite absurd...
Its more a problem about quiting their island and auto resolve being broken that make Carthage trash in Rome. Its one of the best and easiest faction (vs ia) if you play as it and if you know what you are doing. You can attack and take Messana turn 1 without any resistance and then destroying the poor Roman, because every Roman settlement can be forced by Elephant exept Rome. And the IA is too stupid to react being sniped by Baelic slinger Brutii army will be in greece and Julii army will be too far to react. With spy to bypass Rome's main army you can capture it turn 8-10. (In its lets play I think LegendofTotalwar capture Rome turn 5-6 with his necromancer skills. Basically he cheese the wounded system, sacrifice his Elephant in a big slaughter, sacrifice a trash unit like Iberic Infantry and I dont know how every Elephant are alive at the end of the battle, so he just had to reform his infantry) But yeah they should NOT have trouble to capture Spain (even aq player its troublesome) and fend of Numidia
I really like the ideas you put forward but I would suggest some tweaks. The Barcids should definitely get Spain, however the Magonids should get Lilybaeum and sardinia as they were who expanded into it, and the Hannonians should be the African faction as multiple members of the family were noted for their campaigns in Africa. The other major thing Carthage needs is improved core troops, the idea of the mercenary army is somewhat inflated as many of the mercenaries were more analogous to Roman auxiliaries being recruited from subjects and allied people. There roster should be more like Rome 2 diverse but strong with good line infantry and heavy from Africa, swords and cav from Iberia, and excellent skirmishers from Numidia especially skirmisher cav.
Carthage was a trading empire. It was less interested in the scope of its territory and more interested in grabbing coastal ports. Therefore one alteration for Carthage would be, either: buffed ports (more trade routes per level of port, or more lucrative trade routes), or, more subtly, more effective markets (eg. Each level of market as effective as one level above). The market buff is more subtle but the cumulative effect would be considerable. This would make Carthage powerful but vulnerable because their income would depend upon trade which can be abruptly interrupted by blockade or siege. Can Carthage's AI be encouraged to seek trade agreements and allies wherever possible? Can their basic militia have a basic buff, but stay the same price? Another feature of historical Carthage was their natural wealth. Strangely, to modern eyes, the arable part of North Africa which they occupied was the most fertile part of the Ancient World (matched only by the flood plains of the Nile in Egypt and the Tigris/Euphrates in Mesopotamia). At the time, people were unable to easily plough the tougher, muddier soil encountered in Europe (especially Northern Europe) so Carthage was a bread basket. That should be reflected somehow. It should bring especial public order buffs to the Romans once they conquer it (bread for the plebs) and maybe be something for Carthage beyond a trade resource? One comment on the video - if we break Carthage up into 3 factions, plus having their most lucrative province remain defensive, do we not risk making them weaker? In particular, the income from Carthage itself would not be used.
When it comes to the AI, Rome is stronger divided than United. (Because of the in-game cheats, I think) Also, as said, they would need more development in the cities they have. The cities in Rome anyway for Carthage are very small.
i think carthage should have best ships at the start and scipii get some of them recruitable after sinking some of them in battle ( an event like the romain reform) , also for the carthage faction in spain , it get allies and more gauls join them each time they advance toward rome (thats what happened historical)
Very interesting. Would also allow for a bit of a diplomatic triangle between Rome, Egypt, and Carthage. Because as it stands the "final boss" of a Roman campaign is usually an awful slog against a totally unifed East Med. At least now Egypt would have a more powerful nation on their frontier, can't just expand like mad Not to mention my current Easy Rome Strat is to just book it to Carthage, take out the 2 peasants and unit of elephants usually guarding it, and have thr city produce most of my income by turn 15
I agree, Carthage should be stronger in rome 1 and rome 2 representing the former powerhouse they were in the time the games are standing for. Also in the 'Hannibal at the gates' campaign carthage is underpowered in my opinion even tho with that dlc they made a good additional campaign. So what could be good changes for us? I like the idea of faction bonuses to the navy and mercenary and trade.. balanced by weak factionspecific landmilitary with the exeption of the sacred band that should be very expensive. I like the idea of the mercenary headquarters in generell but you should not be able to train/retrain cretan archers in britian since that would be unrealistic (Also elephants should not be trained in britian) I think once you build mercenary headquaters mercenarys should be cheaper to recruit cheaper to maintain and more of them + more variety should be available to carthage compared to other factions @Melkor @all
I feel like their roster could use some work too. You touch on it, but the mercs available to them at least should be MUCH better. Also yeah what the other guy said, buff Iberian Infantry. Also they should add more cities to Africa for expansion, they shouldn't be super developed(basically being Barbar level) but should be there.
I think that the mercenary building is a good idea but if units are to be upgraded It should be able to see it. If nubidian cavalry gets plate armor I should see that unit get horse armour on the field.
One could get Greco-Roman Mercs, one Numidian-Egyptian-Eastern Mercs, one gets gets Ibero-Gallic Mercs. Any ideas for the Greeks? My idea was: -Sparta: Best hoplites in the game, also all phalanx units plain have better stats. Phalanx units also cost less given the Spartans already dedicate their economy to their military complex. -Athens: Great Navy and skirmishers. They have the best peltast unit in the game and also have a Scythian Horse Archer unit (Ignore how anachrostic it'd be by the 3rd century, RTW is about fun first and Athens used Horse Archers from Scythia as a police force at one point). Of course they have a superior navy too. -Syracuse: Walls cost less and have higher HP and take a turn less to build, siege weapons and artillery costs less and takes 1 turn less to recruit, has all the best artillery and siege equipment in the game, and have a special (Innacurate historically but ignore that) Siege Artillery in the form of a Mirror Light-Emitting Laser -Pergamon: I legit dunno for them, I feel Seleukids and Pontus already fill any potential role, so gonna throw them out as rebels -I might want to add Cimmeria/Bosporus, who uses a mix of Greek, Armenian, and Scythian units To give the factions space to move around potentially, Id add Olympia, Thebai, Eretria, and Phanagoria as cities. Might even split Crimea between Cherson and Panticapaeum, one for the Scythians one for Cimmeria
What about the merc headquarters work like the Holy Order knight guilds in Medieval 2 with various flavors that give you different mercs depending on what you build. Say one gives you really powerful missile troops. Another pikemen. Another mounted troops.
