Fixing the Table Saw Flip Stop 

Hi Marius, thank you for your constructive suggestion, we value very highly such feedback because we are always looking to help our customers by making steps forward. We would very much like you to visit us at our Hall in Tirol factory so we can get to know you and your ideas. Kind regards from Tyrol.

Incidentally I can’t understand why 64 people gave this video the thumbs down - Marius has done a great service to both Felder by highlighting the need for improvements and potential new Customers like myself.

To put the nylon nuts on when there is nothing to grip onto on the brass rod. you can cut a slot in the end of the brass rod to accept a flat screwdriver.

Great solution. One thing I might change would be to give the adjusting cam some sort of distinct pointer so you could track if it was moving on its own over time. That could be as simple as a scribe line on the cam's handle.

I have watched people do the five cut method many times, and never got it. You explained it for an idiot like me and I got it. Thanks young man.

Gut gelöst - Das gleiche Problem hatten wir bei unserer Felder in der Firma, war genauso *piep* gebaut. Wir haben damals den Exzenterdingsi durch einen Anschlagklotz mit einer Madenschraube/Kontermutter und den Klappstop durch ein Stück Vierkantstahl ersetzt.

Looks like a last minute throw in solution from the manufacturer, I'm fixing those all the time as I buy low end tools, but at this price range it deserves quite a few harsh words.

Great Job! I had the Hammer Sliding table saw and then stepped up to the larger K500P Felder and I just sold it at a massive loss. Felder is a good company, but there are so many little things which stop their products in my mind from being totally GREAT products. The Hammer line is hobby line and as you mentioned they need to shave cost everywhere. Keep your great posts coming, I am woodworker for 45 years and like seeing a young person taking time to work with extreme detail.

You have inspired me to fix mine “not the same brand but the same problem” so taking all the raised issues I made one like the upgrade from Felder, not as good looking or refined but all from 12mm aluminium and a/s retainers. Cheers

Lovely fix. Btw. you could have just slotted the end of the brass rod to hold it with a flathead screwdriver while securing it with the locknut :)

Thanks for the video Marius! I have the same saw, and since day one have had the same problem... My work around has been to do the 5-cut test every time I need to make a crosscut, and while I've gotten pretty efficient at it, it's no way as quick as how the manufacturer planned for this feature to work. It's such a pain that I've gone so far as to shop around for a new table saw, but seeing your video gives me renewed hope! ... You should consider making and selling them to the Hammer community! I know I'd buy one!

Klarer Verbesserungsvorschlag, der durch den Hersteller schnellstmöglich honoriert werden sollte! Wiedermal tolles kurzweiliges Video! Danke hierfür.

Marius Hornberger I know what felder will have to say. They'll call you and say they want you to work for them! Great work. Love your ingenuity. I honestly feel like I improve my engineering thought process just watching your videos.

I'm sure you have solved a problem for a lot of people and educated others of us that think Felder's engineering is faultless. I don't own a saw like this but would love to have one. No matter the quality of the saw, it can be improved. This video has inspired me to take another look at my current saw's settings to make sure they are still square.

For cutting Aluminium I only use camping alcohol. It costs about 3€ per litre. It evaporates completely and cools very well. I put it into a spray bottle.

The manufacturer's of your beautiful table saw were waiting for someone like you to come up with the right solution. If I were you, I'd send them an email and claim your prize.

I don't use coolant for aluminium either. That just creates a nasty clog of coolant and chips that fills my cut. Best way I found is dry cut with a nice quality upcut- bit that is especially made for aluminium. It clears the chips on it's own, but a little air stream is helpful as well.

I have a sawstop table saw and the sawstop slider attachment. Based on your original review video of your Hammer, I made a similar adjustment system for my slider fence, except I used a shouldered bolt. For some reason I just assumed Felder would have used a shouldered bolt as well. I don't have access to a cnc so I just made everything by hand, might not be as precise as yours but it's getting the job done for now. And if I had a cnc I would start over and make these pieces more precise.

And Felder have replied and come to the party it seems....See their post below. I'd be keen on them paying for the new part, the extension slide with stops AND the room extension to fit the table saw extension in!!!! 3500€ and the have a piece of junk that sets the cut square? Cheeky buggers!! And it only took a brilliantly talented German teenager with 10's of 1000s of RU-vid followers to sort out one of the best brands in the world! You're a star, Marius! Keep up the great work...but please, we need those outtakes!

Hi mate. I think you're right, in that an adjustment that you can trust should be included in the package of the saw it should only cost them a few cents more. However, I think, it was Tom Lipton of the Oxtool channel that said, TRUST BUT VERIFY. It's, I think, one of the best expressions that I have come across.

You're good and thorough! :) Your videos are always fun to watch... - Thank you for taking the time to make them...

I have a suggestion for you, since I own a Felder BF7-41(Yea, I am old school!). Since you have a steel small extension table, you could drill it out and add a 90 degree fixed fence on top of it, if you really want repeatable accuracy versus a removable cross cut fence. Yea, you loose the measurement fence, but I am sure you could come up with a replacement fence as well with your CNC. I would say most of the time I keep my fence at 90 degrees, and for angles, I am more than likely using 45 or 30/60, all of which can be accomodated by making a wood triangle that sits in front of the home made cross cut fence. Simple and effective as well. Also, remember that when using hardwoods and not plywood, you are going to get wood movement, so you need to accomodate that in your designs also, so metalworking accuracy isn't always necessary.

Hi Marius I have a C3 -31 Perform here in the UK. I to have had the same issue with this flip stop . I have challenged Felder about this and they replaced the whole unit about 12 months ago. Sadly the same fault has now developed again. I have even sourced replacement spring washers from the USA to try to fix the problem but it is only a short term fix. Like you I find this extremely frustrating. I find that Felders attitude is that the machine comes with an outrigger table which is the more accurate and better method of guaranteeing an exact 90 degree cut. If you decide to make a batch of these improved flip stop please put my name on the top of the list as I would be anxious to buy one keep up the great work

Nice work, Marius. I tweak my tools pretty regularly, but I buy the cheap version and assume that I'll save money by tuning them myself. Given the cost of that saw, I can totally understand your frustration.

I have wanted a Felder combination machine for a long time. I wonder if they share the same mechanism. Good thing I now have a great solution to the issue if I ever get one and they are the same. Way to go Marius! Glad to hear that this is the only thing you do not like about the saw. Usually when I see videos like this there is a short list of at least 3 or 4 things. Great to hear that felder is making such a quality product in their hammer line that there is only 1 complaint.

Excellent video with a perfect solution.

Excellent work on this. I have the C3 31 comfort machine and if mine had that problem there would be hell to pay. Such a basic need for a table saw, you'd expect them to get it right. Well done for thinking up a fix, just hope felder are kind enough to acknowledge it.

Clever solution, and great video! You might have just found a good niche to make some money--you could start producing more of those flip-down stops and sell them to other saw owners who are having the same problem

Great video, they get better every time - lighting, the logical and clear way you explain everything, methods you use etc. Over the last year you have basically convinced me to get an x-carve as well. :)

greeting, as usual a very informative vid, from a materials point of view, brass together with aluminium is a definitely a no no, in previous vids you talked about a lot of moisture in your basement workshop, these two materials with moisture you will get an galvanic cell setup and the brass will become cathodic (protected) and the aluminium will be anodic (corroded), the result WILL BE corrosion pitting on your new device and most definitely corrode the side of your sliding table. I recommend that you replace the brass with stainless steel asap. mick

Great Fix! Great video! Great "RU-vid" presentation! I like it! I sincerely hope that Felder paid all your expenses to travel to and from Tirol in Austria. I doubt they did. But what a story that would be if they did. Sadly, this is not the only thing bugging the K3 sliding saw: 1. Cheap hand wheels. Notice most less expensive saws like Powermatic and SawStop, etc, and see their awesome hand wheels. And WHY in the pluperfect hallelujah would one ever have to use one wheel for two different functions (height and tilt); having to remove it and install it on the "other" shaft and vice-versa. 2. Flimsy extension tables made out of sheet metal. On a saw as expensive as this one? Give me a break! 3. Worse: Their fences, NO matter how tightly the anchoring; does have play the further from the fixing point. NO part of any fence should flex once the knob is tightened! Period! 4. The rear part of their blade "guard" is dangerous. But I must say that overall, it is the best blade guard on the market. For it takes up minimal space overall and especially concerning its width. Plus, it is a gem to get on and off the riving knife. I bought one to use on my Powermatic table saw; so I could throw away their stupid, useless guard; as most all American made blade guards are. I do love Felder blade guards a lot. 5. Their miter base is just sheet metal. No way could a thinking person justify this on a saw being as expensive as Hammer products are. 6. A right tilting blade is always VERY dangerous when tilting towards the fence; while cutting thin pieces. Lowering the height of the fence, does NOT solve this safety problem. It scares the hell out of me. I do love the K3 in many other ways though. Plus, I do give them a" tip-of-the-hat" for their using a 5" dust port. A 4" is NOT good enough on a table saw. UNLESS you split a 5" into* a 4" AND a 3" (2.5 will work, albeit a little loss in vacuum); while using the 4" on the bottom of the blade and the 3" (2.5") on top of the blade. I applaud them for that. The ability to add a scoring blade and outrigger/fence ass'y is a real plus. * Note: When dealing with air flow, use the "Pythagorean" rule. IE: 5" squared equals 4" squared plus 3" squared. Actually one should use the exponential formula; if trying to determine the exact mass of air flow. As an example: 5pr2 = 4pr2 + 3pr2; and then take the square-root for the size left; AFTER taking off a given sized "branch" pipe from the main duct pipe. But using the first method, is still directly proportional; and much easier to figure. Do this when planning all dust collection systems; when figuring what size the remaining pipe size must be; when taking off branch feeds; to get maximum dust collection efficiency. For whatever it's worth.

Great follow up to your earlier review. And yes for a high end saw at that price the least it should be is accurate. It's hard to believe that, that poorly designed adjustable stop got past their quality control dept. The first time you tune it in you couldn't help but notice that it was a problem. Nice fix and glad to see you changed out the brass for SS. Looking forward to hearing if the manufacture responds to your heads up on the stop problem.

I agree with you. the little thing's is where the problem is. we brought a die cutter cost over a million dollars and they had to replace the computers for the motors. the unit was 3 months old. we paid in cash took them two months to come fix it. the one from Switzerland is 40 years old and runs fine.

Marius, you have inspired me on how to upgrade my table saw sled fence regulation system. The cam will help me to do that. 👍

Marius: Nice fix! So you know, you can grab a smooth brass rod like that with a locking plier (Vise-Grip or similar) but pad the jaws with a few layers of paper towel. I've been able to really lock down on soft parts like aluminum, copper and brass with that method and left no mark whatsoever.

if a company values its brand they can not afford to make these kind of crap designs. Good job fixing it

great work Marius, I like your attention to detail. things like this would annoy me too, although i dont know if i would have the patience to fix it! Your solution is great, although i would certainly think about making it from 316ss later once you notice any play or wear in your new aluminium parts. Also, one of the suggestion would be, now you have the fence set up square and your cam adjustment is set, i would now make a permanent mark on it, using a scribe or notch, so you know in future how much adjustment you are making and how much wear is being caused in the parts. Just a simple scribed line on where the cam meets the flip up adjuster where they make contact... if that makes sense!? keep up the good work. videos are fantastic.

They should hire you as a consultant.

Great fix and I agree that part should be standard equipment.

Great video Marius and also a great solution. I agree that an expensive saw should have had a better fitting! Your English has greatly improved also. I look forward to your videos. regards Mike B

Just a suggestion. you can drill a small cross hole in the shaft to insert an Allan wrench or dowel pin in order to tighten the lock nut.

nice fix, love the no outtakes, you must be getting better lol

I have the same saw for 4 years now, and I have to disagree. your design is indeed much better than the original one, and I hope Felder will adopt this method (and maybe even reward you in some way for that), but from my experience, if you invest about 20 minutes in aligning, you will get fine results and i never worried about that for 3 years already. the key is to keep it tight enough while making fine adjustments, and if it's too tight to do the final adjustment - start all over again. BTW, since felder tend to rip off in accessories prices, i made myself a 2mm thick stainless steel blade splitter (laser cut), to suit thin kerf blades. i have the file for it, if anyone is interested.

Custom design will always out perform / beat mass production...! good job

I think tomorow morning there will be a urgent meeting at the Felder team in Tyrol :D Great job !

I have used the 4 jaw chuck from the lathe to hold smooth rod to thread or install nuts and the like.

Great solution, Marius, your attention to detail and execution is inspiring! If I was Felder, I would be pretty embarrassed. I always find a mention of their name in a public tweet get's a companies attention :-)

Well done! I am not sure about the brass, but the design and execution are otherwise very good. You are right. An expensive saw should not have poor guides or adjustments.

great job! very clever fix.

Great video...as always. Though I do not have that tablesaw, I think it's pretty classy that you posted the template and CNC files to correct it.

kleiner tipp vom metaller : wenn du bohrungen reibst, benutze ein wenig schneidöl dabei. das sorgt für weniger reibung bei der zerspanung, was für eine bessere oberfläche ,und demnach einer kleinere rautiefe sorgt. bedeutet,dass du maßtolleranzen genauer einhalten kannst.

Com ferramentas boas da gosto de trabalhar, aqui no Brasil teria que vender a alma pra conseguir umas máquinas boas. Parabéns pelo vídeo, seus trabalhos ficam perfeitos!

ja, einmal mehr muss ich den Schreibern unten Recht geben: Du solltest asl Qualitäts-Manager / Konstrukteur wo auch immer anheuern - DEINE Vorschläge sind echt sensationell! Perfekt! HÄTTE ich eine derartige Säge, hättest du einen Auftrag! ;-)

Very nice video Marius! For the lock nuts to stay in place over time, please make sure that at least one full screw thread sticks out. (In aviation, where i got this knowledge from, it has to be two full threads). In your video it looks like you cut of the brass short/on top of the lock nut.

Great video of a brilliant solution that's infinitely superior in every way to the original part.

Some advice with milling aluminium, while it's true that you're often okay cutting dry, the cutter will still last longer. Aluminium also likes to gall to the tool, which can ruin your cut

Great work! What alloy is it that doesn't smear and stick to itself? I've got a project I need to cut in aluminum soon and I'll take all the advice I can get.

NICE, I have the combi C3-31 machine and have the same issue with the stop Another issue with the combi machine is the fence on the other side is too soft and bend away..: Wish I had access to a CNC so I could make this replacement! I would happily pay a 100 euros for it Dennis

Der 5-Seiten-Schnitt-Test ist ja genial 👍🏻

I also hope Felder sees this. That is a cheap solution on Felders part. I wouldn't call yours overdone at all. Ball bearings would be overkill.

They should have used a shoulder bolt!! Nice video, please keep them coming!

Excellent analysis and repair.

Great solution Marius! You are very cleaver and resource. Always enjoy your videos

Just sad that a company does this but I guess that's engineers for ya and business economics too Great work buddy

I must say, not bad for a woodworker!

it keeps you busy...you fixed it...nice video ....

well said Mauris and well done , I have the same hammer saw and i know the fustration I think Felder should step up and take your advice

Great job! hopefully the company will look at your solution and try to improve their factory product.

I have that exact table saw and that problem happens to me, thank you so much for the solution

Excellent reengineering and results!

That's a fine looking bandsaw in the background. It looks a lot like mine :-D

After this video, and after the fact that Felder replaced the flip stop, they still sell the new machines with the bad flip stop. If you want a good flip stop , you need to order it and... paying extra. This is the same as buying a new car with 3 good tires and 1 bad tire. If you want your new car with 4 good tires you need to pay extra for the fourth tire. This is the way Felder works. I bought a K3 Winner, made just one test cut , and did not use it anymore for several reasons.

Wow, your videos are wonderful, informative and without the horrible electronic music beating away in the background...Felder would be smart to have you evaluate their gear ! James

TBH, I'd say that part could probably be mass produced for only 10€ more than the original... Reaming is expensive for one part, but not really for 10 thousand parts. The shafts could be probably be replaced with screws with precision unthreaded parts (which are quite standard). Good fix!

Great video, what a pleasure to see attention to detail since I'm in a place where good enough is the norm.

Hallo Marius, das mit dem Rechten Winkel geht auch mit 2 Schnitten. Felder stellt so seine Maschinen ein. Eine größere Platte am Anschlag anlegen und einen Schnitt machen. Dann die Platte umdrehen, so dass der letzte Schnitt gegenüber zum Sägeblatt liegt und nochmals Sägen. Dann die Platte hinten und vorne messen. Der Winkelfehler verdoppelt sich und Du kannst Messen in welche Richtung Du korrigieren musst.

The designer of that solution should be really embarrased. Good fix.

Great solution! One question aside of this topic: You used a router/mill to mill aluminum, but you mentioned it should be also able to mill steel. What brand and type did you use? The most I found were either not able to mill steel or had other prices, beginning with 7000 Euro... Currently "Suhner" would be my best choice. Is "Kress" really able to do this job? (maybe with a lower milling depth per round) thanks!

The same problem has the evolution saw I got and its nearly impossible to get 90 with it...so poorly designed. I hope felder sends you a professional series of their saw for a replacement ;)

I have to agree, much improved execution of the design. I'm always afraid of building something to weak, so I would be worried about the materials you choose, but I guess time will tell if they hold up. The place I would be worried most about is the brass shaft of the flipper as it might wear out over time, but then again there really is no load involved while flipping the flipper, so I guess it will take a loooong time. The other place is the part of the flipper that goes against the fence, it might mushroom over time. also once you had the second thread on the front brass rod, you could have used a locknut... But I think, Hammer should address that issue, even if it makes the saw a bit more expensive I think you could use mostly standardized parts (as drill bushs) and a bit of milling to improve the mechanism substantially. and I think measuring wood with a (cheap, even the expensive ones don't have an accuracy to 0.01mm (even though in my experience with metal they are spot on most of the time when compared to a outside micrometer) digital caliper to the 100th of a mm is always luck... (I bet you can compress the wood while measuring quite a bit)

Your vids are very pleasant to watch, thank you very much for all the work you put into them.

Man I love your videos and ingenuity!

Where are the outtakes? :D

Markus, I am very impressed with your skills. Great videos, great thinking.

Sehr gut Arbeit! Wenn das bei der Säge so Original mit dabei wäre, würde sie wohl nochmal €50,- extra kosten. An der Klemmung mit der Messingscheibe, könntest du eine Federscheibe (DIN137 Form A) verwenden. Die hilft beim einstellen der Schwenkkraft der Anschläge.

You can simply hold the rod with "kombinierzangen" but You need to wrap the rod with some cloth before, so that the teeth can't touch the brass and it won't get damaged.

I am guessing the problem is that the stop and fence are simply bumping 2 flat surfaces together which is not good if you want repeataibility and eliminate variance I am eyeballing that the the fence is clamped 20cm away from the stop point which means there is at least 0.015 mm of variance introduced from bumping the fence and stop together (based on 0.1mm over 1.3m). Perhaps having some mating solution in the fence and stop (e.g. notch and pin) would give more consistent positioning and especially reduce micrometer level movement when you clamp down the fence.

Hi i know its along time since you promote this problem do you have an idea whare can i can buy the upgraded version of the flip stop

Nice fix to an unnecessary problem created by the manufacturer.! Unfortunately this happens all too often. I would like to know why the dislikes though. What is to dislike??

Hi Marius, could you please make a video explaining the five cut methods? I just found english videos in inches and I do not understand, by use of metric system here. Thank you!

I would be livid if I spend that much on a saw and it had that problem. You should bill the company for your time and materials for re-engineering it :)

I have had my K3 Basic for 8 years and have not used the sliding table because of this frustrating problem. I hope Felder make a mod available at some stage prompted by you.

Excellent engineering !!

For the cam post, locktite and lock nut is overkill because the plate is already threaded. By adding a nut at the back its getting locked as is.

I an considering this saw... Was there anything else you find "not so good"?

Jepp. I also bought a Hammer C331 and have to say: It just feels like more quality than Bernardo and the other chinese brands. It doesn't make sqeeky noises, the metal parts are nicer, it has motor brakes and better planing knifes but it isn't all rainbows and unicorns. Setup from the factory was so bad I doubt it was setup at all, the lock mechanism for the sliding table just doesn't lock any more and the parallel fence that is used for the saw and the planer at the same time is complete crap. It is hard to get to exactly 90 degrees, has a rather flimsy aluminum indicator flag to tell what it is set to (almost broke off. I welded it in place again but that won't solve the problem for very long), that is always bent when the fence falls over and it falls over permanently because it is a combination machine and taking the fence off and placing it somwhere else ist inevitable. And the biggest problem with the fence is, that it doesn't lie flat on the saw table because it has to have a cutout for planing to not hit the planing knives and thin pieces can slide under the fence on the table saw. GRRR. After all, every machine has its downsides and I still think it is ok, but it is not as superior as it is often called in forums. Hammer is not a bad brand but reality is: you DO NOT get a high end combination machine for 10.000 euros. It is still not enough.

great video, could you make a video about your router table someday? It seems very compact and well built. keep up the good work!

i have to agree... with what they charge for these machines to let themselves down with something so simple is ridiculous. but i have never found a machine yet that didn't need something fine tuned to make it work properly. i had a hell of a job aligning my sliding table the first time, a lot of trial and error but now its set i wouldn't trade that function for anything.

I agree! There's no real excuse for that kind of poor design. They make a lot of money on those saws and like you said, almost everyone who will pay that amount for a saw isn't going to be overly bothered, if at all, for a few more bucks to make it better and I'm sure that extra cost would be much less than your suggestion. I could tell for sure from the video, but is the miter gauge graduated? I didn't see any marks or numbers so if I'm correct, how do you set your angles?

I love to see how you well use the CNC, ! Great Fix.