Flatter - part 2 - hardening and tempering the mystery steel

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As we continue work on our flatter in part two we briefly look at the grinding process. But more importantly we look at the trial and error of trying to determine the proper heat treatment of an unknown steel.
Thank you for watching. Black Bear Forge is a small one person shop located in Southern Colorado.
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These first links are affiliate links, which means I earn a small commission if you buy from these dealers.
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New anvils - www.nimbaanvils.com/
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Industrial supplier - www.mcmaster.com
Tong blanks and tools - kensironstore.com/
Fire brick and refractory - refwest.com
Blacksmithing and related activities can be hazardous. These videos are not a substitute for competent professional instruction. Your safety is your sole responsibility. Always use appropriate safety equipment including eye and ear protection when working in the shop. Follow manufactures safety guidelines for the use of all equipment. In the event something shown in one of these videos seems unsafe, it is up to you to make the appropriate changes to protect yourself.

Опубликовано:

7 мар 2019

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Комментарии : 96

@robbullis5025 5 лет назад

I can definitely can understand your views John when are making tools to sell. I think if you are making tools to use in your own shop then playing with salvaged steel can add to the learning experience. I really enjoy these projects that you walk us thru.

@jacobcrown7707 5 лет назад

That is an awesome idea for having your oil quench tank setup to be able to easily put out fires.

@beni2094 5 лет назад

Excellent job explaining how to test unknow steels. Lots of great tips. You Rock John!

@doktorjonsson3860 5 лет назад

Just bought the last pieces of steel to make a treadle hammer today. Your treadle hammer video inspired me to build my own, so excited to get started!

@doktorjonsson3860 2 года назад

@Pntz Englnd Well... Where do I begin...? 😂 I built it from plans I found on the interwebs, but when it came to welding the springmountjointthingmabobber I turned it the wrong way so the springs doesn't pull enough. So now it has like 4"/100mm of stroke, should have something like 20" 😂🤦🏻‍♂️ Haven't really done any blacksmithing since I finished it, started working on my cars instead. And yes, Jönsson svensk 😉

@doktorjonsson3860 2 года назад

@Pntz Englnd Jo dom sparar mycket arbete! Och så får man två händer att jobba med. Men bygg nedre delen av "städet" ordentligt och rejält! Jag byggde mitt av 100x100x10 konstruktionsrör och väger 60 kg, men skulle varit bra om det vägde lite mer 🤷🏻‍♂️

@hosiercraft9675 5 лет назад

Part 3 & 4 in 4 you use the tool you made to make something. Thanks John. Love the videos.

@ghostforge3303 5 лет назад

Thanx John for the tips on how to harden and temper/test unknown steels. Nice Flatter.

@krustysurfer 5 лет назад

Super Duper Awesome Black Bear Forge! Just bought a bunch of mystery steel myself at .40cents a pound from local recycling yard. Some great finds, tool steel 1" plate and some future anvil stock. Because of your channel we are super stoked to get started on my blacksmith tool making journey. Thank you so much for sharing your time and wisdom John, we are indebted to you and your channel.

@3870TheDad 5 лет назад

Thank you for showing us the procedure to go through to determine how to finish our tools made off " mystery steel".

@johnt.chambers4204 5 лет назад

Hoe ram bits don't have as much carbon as you would expect because they are subjected to so much stress and you don't want them to break. They also have a small amount of molybdenum and Manganese (usually around 2% of each) sometimes tungsten as well depending on the manufacturer. They are excellent steel for what they are made for. I have used this metal in making gun parts a few times and it works great because it doesn't wear much over time. I normally ice quench the contact surfaces and let the part air cool. One thing you will find is that it doesn't forge weld very well. As you probably have much more blacksmithing experience than I do, you probably know more about why that is than I do. Hope this is some help to you. Oh yeah, before I forget, I really enjoy your videos.

@steelpennyforge5152 5 лет назад

Don't worry about the minor flaws, gives it character! Really well done!

@grandadz_forge 5 лет назад

Love the fiddling processes

@andrewostrelczuk406 5 лет назад

I personally find that twist desirable, for me struggling with the neuropathy in my right arm and hand, keeping my arm closer to my body rather than further away, is beautiful for making possible, longer time spent on forging. Great Videos John!!!

@TitsMcGeester 5 лет назад

Love the work, keep it up!

@stanervin6108 5 лет назад

Seems to be serviceable, John! 🐾🔥⚒

@williamcunha9136 5 лет назад

Awesome Job John! Thank You for taking the time to educate us.

@TomokosEnterprize 5 лет назад

Great job once again John. Nice tips on hardening too. Thanks a bunch eh !

@wayneparris3439 5 лет назад

Just a FYI the flatter I made 20 years ago was never hardened and it is still fine. Sure harden it if you wish but as a struck tool on hot metal, dead soft is fine. Also, it will get hot when in contact with your work and will aneal more anyway.

@RayFromTheHayclan 5 лет назад

Good demonstration on Heat Treating an unknown Steel. Very informative.

@robscott4723 11 месяцев назад

Good SOLID instruction!

@BlackBearForge 11 месяцев назад

Thanks!

@brettsayers7768 5 лет назад

Another great video John, a good shop made flatter, it's going to work just fine and that is the point of the video.

@billyproctor9714 5 лет назад

Thank you for the video. On unknown metals I'v had fare success oil quenching till it stops smoking then dousing in cold water, slight sizzle. It's almost like I'm getting a hardening and tempering in one firing. Cheers, Billy in Canada

@gregwise5324 5 лет назад

For me John, all that I can afford is Scrap & unknown steel. I even built my shop out of Scrap, only because that's simply all that I can afford, heck can't even afford a store bought rivet, LoL. Thanks For all of the Great Videos !

@trollmcclure1884 5 лет назад

Dont worry, I dont even have a real hammer and the tools like a vise to be able to start bulding something like a shop etc. Not to mention an anvil or a forge :). It's still entertaining and good to know in case I'll have the tools one day.

@stevenbennett5221 5 лет назад

Great videos. Hope the tools made from that steel work out well for you.

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

It seems like pretty good steel and its easy to forge compared to something like S7

@bentoombs 5 лет назад

Great info John. I have a set of the Japanese hrc files for testing hardness. It's a cheap way to get in the ballpark. ⚒ On!!!!!

@ffolted 5 лет назад

I have a similar set Ben,it gives us a clue and helps with the learning aspect of hardening different materials.

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

I'll probably need to buy some of those, They would be a better option than a regular hardness tester.

@bentoombs 5 лет назад

@@BlackBearForge wayyyy less $$$$

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

about 1/20th the price it looks like

@bentoombs 5 лет назад

@@BlackBearForge yes sir. And good quality of its the same set I have. I have only seen the one brand. Thanks for all you do john👍 ⚒ On !!!!

@shadowfox929 5 лет назад

Loved the two part series. As for the misalignment, couldn't you just reheat the upper portion and twist it into alignment in the vise? Thanks for sharing.

@newtsleatherandmetalsmithy1827 5 лет назад

Thank you for the info on the apron and badge I am looking forward to replicating it in the future. Also should you want another badge I know a guy that does them out of copper he Jeff Barret over at Drasons forge

@leontorkelson6246 5 лет назад

Great info, I have assorted mystery steel around my place. Being a hobby blacksmith this information will give me a basis to work that steel. Thanks.

@idahobob173 5 лет назад

Great video. How do you preheat the quench oil?

@darinvoight68 5 лет назад

And this is why I use S7 for all of my tools. No guesswork and S7 is incredibly forgiving and more than tough enough for hot work even if with less than perfect heat treating. If I ever get an electric oven, I may start using H13 but until then I'll take the convenience of S7.

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

Thats the way I generally feel about it. But I have found most of my viewers like working with found material

@lenblacksmith8559 5 лет назад

Love this stuff John, so interesting seeing the tests with un-known steel. Gives us some Idea what to do.

@user-xe6mb3bp9e 5 лет назад

انت معلم

@michaelmerrigan1064 5 лет назад

I'll bet that the guy who sent the 50 lbs of steel to you would appreciate something forged from the left over 3/4" bar, especially if it had your touch mark on it.

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

Great suggestion

@mikegrizzle6864 5 лет назад

Boy it must have warmed up there John you're not wrapped up in a big bundle or you got one heck of a good fire going

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

We had a very warm spell. Now the snow has turned the place into a mud hole

@georgegriffiths2235 5 лет назад

Chances are john it’s a work hardening steel used on demolition tools

@tdemario3753 5 лет назад

Any specific place that you get your hammer handles?

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

I buy them frequently from House Handle company. They should have a web site

@MrRShoaf 5 лет назад

What about testing with a magnet to detirmine the critical temp?

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

Very unreliable. Most steels loose magnetism at about the same temperature, which only corresponds to critical temp in very simple steels. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-kkGDBRpJC6U.html

@danielcrawford7315 5 лет назад

Nice took n toolin boss. Pretty tough stuff ain't it? Did the steel info I sent you help you any for this? Guy I got it from Owens a rock hammer and core drilling and blasting company n ge helped me out with the info I sent in last video. Blessed days sirSir, Crawford out

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

I had several people send steel information on what they were sure it is. Of course they were all different.

@danielcrawford7315 5 лет назад

@@BlackBearForge yes sirSir, I was just trying to help all I could with info from a guy in the industry. Hope I didnt irritate you sir

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

Not a bit. I just wish it was more reliable to know what a steel was based on its original use. Like car springs used to always be 5160. Now no one knows for sure.

@liveblade 5 лет назад

Could just heat it to the non-magnetic range to determine the critical range? Or is that not a universal.

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

I’m afraid it’s not accurate. Most steels loose magnetism in the 1450 range but some have critical temperatures much higher. That work for simple steels like 1085 or W1. But not so well if it is something fancy.

@MauledByBears 5 лет назад

The twist is super annoying. Happens to me all the time making flatters and bottom tools. My tools always have a left-handed twist; maybe because I'm left handed? To correct it, I forge the high corners down, turning 90 degrees every blow in between upsets at the block.

@liamluider7185 2 года назад

Where do you buy you a carbide burrs?

@devilsdenmetalworks1809 5 лет назад

hey John thanks for the tips. I have a question for you about testing. I was wondering if heating and quenching the same test piece in different mediums each time would affect the outcome ? Or is it better to test a different piece for each medium? Thanks!

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

It might to some small degree, but since this is rather unscientific I'm not sure it matters. For the best results a different piece for every test would be ideal.

@devilsdenmetalworks1809 5 лет назад

Just wondered if it really mattered thank you.

@bunyanforgings7849 5 лет назад

When the piece snapped after water quenching, was the piece partially fractured during the oil quenching test?

@exzyle2k 5 лет назад

Or the thermal shock of being dunked into ice cold water created stress fractures that caused the snap.

@bunyanforgings7849 5 лет назад

@@exzyle2k That too. I suppose one way to know would have been to cut off the test length before the water quench.

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

possibly, but since it couldn't be broken after the oil quench I doubt it had any cracks. If it were cracked after the water quench it probably would have broken first hit. But that is why I discard all of the steel involved in that test.

@bunyanforgings7849 5 лет назад

@@BlackBearForge Ahhh.... makes sense.

@KevinSmith-gh5ze 5 лет назад

John where do you like to buy your carbide burrs?

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

McMaster Carr usually

@bushcraftrebelknifes8970 5 лет назад

what is better oil or water ??????

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

depends on the specific steel. for this steel I found oil to work

@Aminuts2009 5 лет назад

you could always send a coupon off to a lab and have them do a metallurgical analysis, then you would know exactly what it was.

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

I suspect that would be costly and wouldn't help teach the methods used in learning to work unknown steels.

@Aminuts2009 5 лет назад

@@BlackBearForge while i agree it would not teach the methods of figuring out how to heat treat an unknown steel. It would show you exactly what you have. I know its not as expensive as you think. Several people i know have done it. I"ll have to ask them how much the spent. But knowing them i know it wasn't much. Thank you for your reply. Love the channel.

@AnonOmis1000 5 лет назад

Looks like its warming up where you live

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

warm and muddy

@RayFromTheHayclan 5 лет назад

Remember blacksmiths and swordsmith made some of the greatest weapons of all time long before they knew the science of metallurgy.

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

They also had very little choice in materials, it was steel or it was iron, so they could learn how steel behaved without worrying about what type of steel it was. Today there are thousands of possibilities out there.

@Fireworxs2012 5 лет назад

That is.good ol'e 8630...maybe 8640....Oil quenching is.the way to go but I'd take it up to 1650, soak at 450 for 2 hours....For all reasonable applications it's all but indestructible...🔱

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

Several people have been sure they knew exactly what it was. Sadly no two seem to agree. It did get quit hard at 1500, not sure if it needs the 1650. 450 did result in a better tempering

@Fireworxs2012 5 лет назад

Hey there Mr. Bear...You are correct. Without further testing (spectrum analysis) it's impossible to know what it is for sure..That said, 25 years ago I had a Buddy that worked for the Nebraska State Highway Commission. Occasionally they would break a road breaker bit and he would grab it. Those Bits were 8630. From the video & what you describe from your spark testing and seeing how it looks when you're working it (it has a slick almost wet look to it when cherry red) it sure looks & acts like those old Jack Hammer bits. 8630 is basically 1060 with extra chromium, nickel & molybdenum..Makes lousy knives, great forming tools. (swages, fullers, & wutnots)..Dial down the tempering and it makes great wear plates.. Less finicky to forge than Shock series steel, super tuff stuff when tempered right...Always thought it would make great anvil plates..Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth..*tosses a nickel on the table..Can't help wonder how many feet of snow you guys got down there...

@dorothyjones1537 4 года назад

The other side of a pond

@Loan--Wolf 5 лет назад

scarp steel is best for learning because your not out any cost when you throw it away

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

The problem with learning on scrap is that it all behaves differently and you never know if you are having problems because of your technique or because you found some odd bit of steel. Learning on mild steel keeps that one thing constant and once you have developed your technique it is easy to tell if a particular steel has its own problems, which many do. But I understand that it is all some people have available

@Loan--Wolf 5 лет назад

@@BlackBearForge i am not talking so much as a guy like you that 20 + years in the job more as a guy like me never hit hot iron with a hammer to make a tool in my life so if i can take a coil spring and make a usable tool for me even if it takes me 5 trys its a win

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

Sorry, I thought you were refer to just learning the basics of forging with salvaged steel of unknown properties. Coil spring is actually fairly reliable

@eugenecussen3735 5 лет назад

t- other side of atlantic? I resemble that

@bigmacca99 5 лет назад

First

@MarkATrombley 5 лет назад

Minor typo - The N is missing from hardening.

@danperrett7247 5 лет назад

Good thing he's a blacksmith and not an English teacher.

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

Thanks, I have always found it odd that the spell checker doesn't read the titles.

@MarkATrombley 5 лет назад

@@BlackBearForge Can you type it into something that has spell check then copy and paste?

@chrisgomm6101 5 лет назад

that there steel is harder than old boiled woodpecker lips

@BlackBearForge 5 лет назад

I’ll take your word for it.

@SharkyMoto 5 лет назад

people often seem to overrate the heat treat of steel, this might be due to the constant circle jerk happening around it. in the end, it doesnt really matter here anyways, the hammer needs to be hard enough so it doesnt get deformed by the thing you are hammering on, but thats already it. if you'd care about the hardness of the end result, you shouldnt make it out of an unknown material in the first place, so not having the tools to determine what material it most likely is, isnt a drawback here