You get the award for best technical technical tennis content on RU-vid. I can't help but wonder... do the coaches on the pro tour know all these things but only share the knowledge amongst themselves? This stuff seems like it's part of a special club of insiders that we never have access to. There are probably only small number of tennis pros who know this stuff at this level of detail. Maybe like 5%, probably much less.
judging by the amount of time it took Djok to fix his serve, or some other examples, it takes some time and the right person to deliver the correct information to the pro's at the very elite level. i've wondered often if the top coaches are just bad, or they just can't seem to get through to their players sometimes. i think it's a combination of both. certainly, there are plenty of quality coaches near the top. however, often times they are either too rigid in their ways, or other times too fluid, to where they let the player do whatever... it's a good conversation to have over a drink
I just love the way your mind works on mechanics...all the little details that have big effects with high performance players having to contend with super heavy fast shots. For me, you are in my top 3 RU-vid coaches, but you are the best by far (again, for me) as far as super high level goes. I truly hope your futures player does well and that your career grows because you deserve a chance in the ATP. But as I write that I realize that RU-vid success is probably at the same level as being an ATP coach these days, so may you continue to grow that, too. Be well, Tom.
thank you for delving into the details. the fact that you are doing this shows your quality as a coach/technician. i think it comes down to versatility. you need all forms of wrist/hand work (solid/loose) to handle all the different shots in tennis.
i think one of the greatest points you made about using the hand/turning the wrist was how it keeps the racquet face pointing to your intended target longer, increasing the accuracy of your shot.
Great topic, very interesting. Good points on adapting and adjusting your stroke in relation to position to ball and what you are trying to achieve with your shot. The Spanish say " Mover la Mano", move the hand through the stroke. When Tom was playing that cross court service line game, moving his hand the way he was, he was getting a lot of spin, dip and speed on he ball. Thanks Tom and Slav
Imo, there are a couple important concepts that comes to mind reg the swing and the wrist: 1) strong wrist position vs wrist action --------------------------------------------------------------- You want your wrist to be going from a strong position to a less strong position through impact, because this is the range of motion where the wrist can accelerate the most and still be stable at impact. By that I mean that if you end up to early in a neutral or flexed position, also known as "casting" in golf, you're not leveraging the wrist efficiently. In those positions the wrist is weak, and you're at the end of the wrist movement, which means the wrist movement is slowing down. An analogy could be how you would hammer a nail (even though we're now talking about a different wrist movement, i.e. from abduction to adduction): you start from a strong position (wrist "cocked") but you instinctively know you want the wrist to be slightly cocked at impact for maximum force. 2) spaghetti arm and wrist --------------------------------------------- A lot of beginners struggle with spaghetti arm and/or wrist, that move quite a bit Independently of the bigger muscle groups. In golf and tennis, it is extremely important to consistently get into the right position at the end of the backswing or unit turn, before starting the forward motion. Like Tom mentions this is a fluid movement through this position (f.inst. trophy pose), but it does imo mark a moment where you need the (muscles of the) whole chain to be connected: legs, hips, torso, arm, wrist. This feeling of muscular connection is needed to properly sequence the firing of the right muscles in the right order. So it seems to me that in the backswing, most players would benefit from a a very "stable" unit turn where the upper and lower body do most of the work, whilst the arm and esp. the wrist are quite stable. I think Wawrinka's backswing on his FH is a good example. Then when you fire using the big muscle groups, that drive will produce a solid wrist lag, and it is your big muscle groups and arm that are supposed to drive you into contact, where the wrist can activate *through* contact. Imho. And imo, this is where the difficulty of loose vs stable, or loose vs muscular tension also arises. If you're too tight most of your muscles, you kill the speed. If you're too lose with your arms or wrist, you won't be able to leverage the big muscles groups for speed (bc you're not efficiently connected to them). Ofc, some athletes manage to do this, f.inst. the super loose wrist on the Tiafoe or Djokovic serve, but it looks to me like this is very, very difficult to manage if you're not putting in a lot of hours to sync things up.
Good video - I always had an issue with “releasing” the racket ie I was holding it off probably for more control but reality was it wasn’t very consistent. Had a few lessons with a very good instructor to help fix this issue. Funnily enough, I had same problem for my golf swing when I started off playing (but with golf you can definitely over do the release and a more passive release pattern is probably more preferred ie don’t hold it off but you probably don’t want to actively release your hands either as then your timing needs to be spot on)
Tom - I quite enjoy most all your videos and I think you've perhaps advanced your thinking on this subject since you recorded this a year ago, but I would encourage you to just accept that the modern forehand - like the serve - is a THROWING motion. A FH is a sidearm throwing motion from various angles - whereas a serve is primarily an overhand (really a 3/4s) throwing motion (a cricket throw (bowling?) would be a true overhand throw). In any normal throwing motion, the wrist naturally lags and then releases when you release the ball. On a FH or Serve - that same 'release' of the wrist occurs at the contact point. BTW - the throwing motion also explains why the best modern FHs involve coiling your core and drawing your elbow back and away from your core as you coil which creates tension/ energy in your shoulder muscles which will be released as you start the forward throwing motion. The wrist lag and the whip action from the elbow also all happen naturally. If you try and create 'positions' and over analyze all the dynamic actions that are happening naturally in a throwing motion - well it'll end up being a 'push' or - at best - a pendulum swing without the dynamism and quick action and adjustments re: spin and racket angle that you can get from a throw. Again - the FH and the serve are really the same throwing motion - just from different angles, swing heights and contact points. Yes, some of these same release actions occur in a golf swing, but it's also what you do when swinging a bat in baseball - and both are less like what you do on a FH or a serve and more like what you do when you hit a 2 handed BH - with the baseball bat swing being a closer analogy since the contact point is closer to what you're normally doing on a 2 handed BH.
Thanks for the comment. I covered this topic 5 years ago. Don’t think you’ll find a video on this subject before this one ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-hOfUmN1ky8g.htmlsi=kIDLBj2FfRMr-SKU
After tons of practice on the forehand and golf swing, I've found the same as you are saying. Nicely explained, for something that is a bit hard to explain.
The wrist is loose going into the shot as the racket drops below the ball to generate topspin naturally. The motion of brushing up again the ball to create topsin is only really possible when my wrist is somewhat loose. When I stiffen up the at contact I tend to hit the ball flatter and with less control vs. when I am relaxed. If you watch slow motion videos of Sinner, clearly see that his wrist is loose going into the shot.
This is why I tend to focus more on forearm relaxation, similar to serve. As you say, supination to pronation, the ‘wrist action’ occurs because of this. Of course, every student is different and as Slavy says, some will have too much wrist. I think the most important thing is to work on consistency of racket face at contact because the trajectory of the swing changes a little to a lot with every shot and keeping a relaxed forearm allows one to ‘cover’ the ball on flatter trajectory shots and even ‘buggy whip’ when late or early off bounce and trying to shape a ball back deep.
Indeed every student is different, especially racket control at contact which is not consistent but varies based on tactical intention. One thing that should never happen and doesn’t with elite players at contact with basic groundstrokes is “covering” the ball.
I learned this hand release technique experimenting what feels great when striking the balls most tennis lessons never work with feel of hitting a ball therefore some are completely to wristy or completely stiff , tennis is a situational sports learning from different parts of the court really helps with feel
Thanks for the advice you're sharing. I've been trying out your tips as my wristy forehand lacked wrist extension (lag) and caused me pain at times +mishits. Trying to supinate more but it's causing the racket-face to open up too much and am hitting flatter balls, with a more rigid arm + wrist. Hope to get back some more wrist feel and find a happy balance
Love the nuances here. How much wrist should you shoot for? Depends if you already use a lot of wrist (most people use too much) and depends on what kind of shot you are hitting.
Andre Agassi peaches stability right before and through contact just like you explained with the golf swing (his Udemy course). This is a great analysis I don’t think many people have explained the wrist well throughout the entire swing. I’m way too wristy. As a kid I used to snap my wrist forward for more power. I think that’s the biggest no no that coaches think about when they say passive wrist.
Interesting that Slav looks to have a somewhat open racket face as he is first moving the racket down and forward on his forehand, suggesting that external shoulder rotation might get him in a "strong position" early in the stroke - similar to a squash shot and with more internal rotation/pronation late in the shot. I've tried it on the forehand side and get a clean, heavy ball when well timed, which is not often for me.
Yes, that’s exactly right. External rotation of the shoulder sets the arm up to whip the hand to the contact point so that if it was a race between the elbow and hand, the elbow would have the lead and then at contact the hand catches up then the hand takes the lead to finish. When I do it I feel like my forearm stays parallel to the baseline for a long time. It doesn’t look that way but it feels that way. It’s something you have to feel to believe. If not, it doesn’t make sense.
@@genemolina There’s a widely used quote in golf instruction originating from a vintage champion golfer: “What you feel is not real” Like a golf swing, a tennis swing happens very fast in real time and stroke segment feelings are difficult to pinpoint precisely. Plus our focus is (or should be) on tracking and timing contact, not about swing mechanics, unless we’re shadow swinging.
I always thought at contact the wrist will be engaged - it's certainly engaged when I throw a ball to control the throw and send it in the right direction? That doesn't mean locked, it means it's actively directing the ball. But it certainly doesn't mean it's loose and wobbly or who knows where my throw will go. As for actively turning over the racket just using the wrist, well mostly you don't need too as there's plenty of force from your swing and it'll just happen, all it is doing is helping to direct that force. But if you have no swing (e.g. in your service box tennis because any swing through will send the ball long) then you'll have to use your forearm more to turn the wrist over to generate topspin.
At 8:36 100% ! Finding this out on my own where I just realized my daughter’s FH has waaaay too much “wrist” and this contributes to inconsistency. Yeah, when all stars line up, the GH looks incredible but when the wrist doesn’t get a chance to “settle” the result usually is balls flying long, and all over (and this has nothing to do with the infamous “footwork” - whatever that means)
I believe he does and most atp players do. If they start with the racket facing down in the tap the dog position then they have to roll the forearm at some point before getting to the ball for the racket head to open up, facing the ball. Some roll early while others late.
@@tehatte I wonder if you got things mixed up. The closed racket face at the beginning of the forward swing opens up with the forward swing because of the backward rotation of the forearm (supination), not the forward rotation ( pronation) and external rotation of the upper arm.
@@watcher687 You might be right with the supination but even with super slow motion like in this clip ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-BRgUDHENPzk.html starting from 0.35 second I hardly see any movement in Federer’s forearm or upper arm, probably because a gradual forward movement. I only see his forearm rolling forward right at the contact. I looked at another super slo mo of Djokovic FH and it’s kinda the same except he seemed to start rolling his forearm forward a tiny bit after contact of the ball.
tennis, or any other sports for that matter, is a science!! You must be smart, analytical, and have attention to detail in order to succeed. I just love tennis !! We club players will spend our whole life trying to master the strokes, but only a few will get there.
Raining next few days, bummer, want to try using wrist to initiate windshield wiper, saw another video where I believe you said it is more difficult with straight arm eastern grip which is what I use. Just need to be more out in front of ball then someone with bent arm semi western grip.
Wondering if you could give me advice? in one of your recent videos, where you talk about improving lag without being too wristy. I had a similar problem and hit the ball using too much wrist and managed to improve how I hit and gain more consistency and depth by focusing on hitting in front and with a straighter arm. My question is whether it is possible to get more spin without wristing the ball like before, I am struggling in producing as much spin as before.
Ur friend is talking about a Federer forehand where pace is injected by wrist manipulation in matchplay and ur essentially explaining Tsitsipas FH where his wrist is majorly passive and aiding spin production more than pace 👍😀
On a normal FH groundstroke, let the wrist release naturally from inertia, through contact. Don't focus or attempt to keep it fixed. When you need to guide the ball on a return of a fast serve, that's when you may focus on keeping the wrist firm and laid back through contact. Power the wrist only when you need to hit with more topspin for sharper angles or when you can't use a full, normal swing.
Great video, I have a very bad habit by rotating my wrist before or just before contact. It caused my forehand to be so inconsistent, loopy, and lacked power. I am struggling to fix this habit. Are there any tips to help? I am a self learn tennis player.
He has same problem as me. I learned playing tennis a few decades ago.(old style push stroke) So My forehand stroke looks like table tennis 🏓. I really wanna fix my stroke but it is very tough one.plz introduce more drill to fix it. From s. Korea.
I wish you would have spent some more time on that part where you’re talking about strong positions (3) because that might be the key. It’s definitely not that you decide to whip the wrist…….. now! Just guessing (I’m at the actively rotating wrist stage) but is it the lag position then the end position at follow-thru that is the key - go from A to B and wrist rotation happens naturally?
Passiveness and activeness are just something in your mind, it is hard to quantify, it is consciousness or urge. When you practise, yes, you probably do it with consciousness. But when you play game, you probably not. What can be quantify is measurement, let's say at contact point, the angle is between racquet and forearm is 120 degree, and lag angle is 90, the delta is 120 - 90 = 30 degree. So is 30 degree active or passive ? You are the judge. Is it too much or too less ? It depends the result of the shot and whether it cause you discomfort. I am sure you can feel it.
Well stated. The racket-forearm relationship is key. The wrist is a joint, not a power source and intentional use of wrist should be avoided at all costs, same with the turning the doorknob example and trying to use the forearm as a power source.
@@poida007 I agree with Slavy’s explanation as to why you would get more wrist the faster you swing. I feel the same thing. Things move and stop quicker, and the last part of the kinetic chain has to come through faster.
@@TomAllsopp I understand what you're saying and believe that the challenge is quantifying a feeling and how we use and understand anatomy/biomechanics. The swing is simply moving too fast to consciously control the distal body parts, hand and forearm. The wrist is part of this complex as the joint connecting the hand and forearm. All three are more or less moving together as unit. The wrist is turning because it's connected to the hand and forearm. It's not independent doing it's own thing, it's the hinge part of the hand/forearm complex and not a power source, it has no muscles that can produce power. The big muscle groups legs, hips, torso provide power and the arm controls the racket and its swing path and orientation. There's a famous quote in golf: "What you feel is not real” Here's an article, the same concept applies to a tennis swing. I believe this explains the problems we run into in trying to explain what is happening and all the various coaching instructions and interpretations we hear about how the swing works anatomically. Hope this makes some sense. myhome4golf.com/2017/02/05/feel-not-real/
@@TomAllsopp Yes, and players do it all the time, especially low level rec players. They lack ball control and get injured. Slavy talks about this in the video and how he tries to correct it. Pros do it also, but only in an emergency, aka the Federer squash shot. It is impossible to play high level tennis flicking the racket around with the wrist the way you see many rec players playing and advanced players are advanced because they don't.
The racket/ club face releases through the contact zone. The wrist remains in the “strong” position but the racket/ club face is still gradually releasing with respect to the arm through this zone. There isn’t a hitting point. The full release of the racket/ club face is at the 45° angle ie 1-2 o’clock tennis, 4-5 o’clock golf.
The coach in long pants has an eastern grip and looks like he held it wrong when he demoed the FH his racket opened up in the sky a little bit. He would hit under the ball and cause it to fly pretty long. You can have an eastern grip like Federer but you need to adjust the wrist extension in the lagging like Federer does for it to work. I use semi western grip but my son uses the eastern grip so I know about this difference.
I have an eastern grip but I don’t adjust it like Federer. We’ll see if Slavy responds about his swing demo but he just likes to exaggerate movements I think.
If you throw a sidearm baseball or skip a rock across the water it’s the same as swinging a tennis racket. For flat I simply keep racket level plane thru the ball. I switched from your method and hit the ball harder and more accurately. Without thinking. Watch a video on the two methods I stated.
Like this video? ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-hOfUmN1ky8g.htmlsi=ArKJiFQ_nsaRbzqk pretty sure I was the first person making videos on this
If you don’t start to release the wrist just prior to or on contact then you will have such a small window of time where the ball will be on the strings.
@@TomAllsopp This guy has a great video about it all too. I 100% agree with him as had been working on this in my own game for the last few weeks. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-dxOpRh-dtp0.html
Flexion , pronation and ISR is what you need , forget firm wrist !! Active hand is always needed because noooooooo recreational player has always the perfect contact so he has to fix it everytime if he wants a good ball
Nice swing. I started “throwing” a bit through the hitting area with the golf swing, too. Sort of a side arm or submarine style pitcher. Thanks for relating the two sports.
bad explanation!.Learn how to ESR in the takeback and how/when to do ISR. The bla..bla..bla..is confusing..smart but harmfull.You cannot explain what you do not understand.Kudos
