Yeah, I honestly think just foresight is the problem, everything else is pretty cool. I think situations where buffering it always gets it is best. Like with multhit moves or if someone's oos option lines up perfectly to set it off after you hit their shield. Also, obviously, getting it off a neutral air dodge and being able to just react.
On the surface, it looks like it should have its biggest effect on characters with typically good frame advantage on their normals, more or less regardless of range
Hello everyone, peter griffin is here to explain the joke. The user "Versen H." said that "The witch is back" on a video talking about an overpowered part of a Smash Bros character, otherwise known as Mythra. Mythra's foresight ability is very similar to Bayonetta's bat within ability, except foresight is more powerful. Bayonetta was also more powerful back in her debut game, that being Smash Bros for the Wii U. The phrase "The witch is back" is a nod to how powerful Bayonetta was back in Smash Bros 4, since Bayonetta is a witch, and while she may have gotten heavily nerfed on the release of Smash Bros Ultimate, Mythra carrying a similar ability to Bayonetta's thats much more powerful is something that may remind players of Bayonetta. This is why "The witch is back" is a terrifying phrase meant to joke about how there's another S tier character in Smash Bros that's very similar to Bayonetta.
@@hexospikez741 no it will at first, and they’ll all think she’s terrible for a little while. Then 6 months down the road she’ll still be at the top of the tier list
@@Jairjax she ain't THAT slow and to be honest her spike is fucking huge (also she does like 4 times the damage Mythra does whit one move) Edit: actually she is slow af
I got owned by an elite mytra that managed to pull foresight most of the time i landed a hit as dedede I wish the hammer was just as fast as pyra's f smash
Fitting, since Bat Within in the Bayonetta games is busted. You get rewarded with Witch Time no matter what frame you slip up your dodge on. Wait, no it doesnt in smash.
Yea, and her roll is also quite slow too, if she was trying to get outside of grab reach at that time you might be able to trap her again after whiffing your grab.
I wish the parry window was a similar size to Mythra’s foresight. I wonder how that would change things. I feel the whole purpose of adding parrying to ultimate was to reduce mashing. But it doesn’t usually work since so many moves are safe on parry when spaced. Having a larger window to get a hard punish would be a lot better and would make getting a parry actually feel rewarding
I think in some situations that would be true, but I think it would also break some fighters. For example Ganon has very slow and predictable moves that are basically never safe on shield, and he would not be able to play anymore with a huge parry window. I agree that against some fighters like cloud, buffed parry could be cool, but it would absolutely nullify fighters that don't fit into that category of safe on parry. Marcina would drop at least one tier imo and some fighters who can get ridiculous punishes off of parries (Puff for example) would get too gimmicky. Also Mythra foresight is frames 2-6 and parry is frames 1-5? So unless you mean that parries should activate witch time I think the window is the same size? Except you know parry is frame one instead of two. Could be wrong but yeah.
I think the parry system is fine the way it is. You should get rewarded for spacing an aerial with low cooldown. Spacing generally takes more precision and time than randomly rising fair in nuetral. It would be lame for the party system to be able to punish that. At that point, anybody can just lose a stock to any player who manage to parry a fully spaced bair on shield.
Id say the only character where parrying doesn't feel satisfying is sonic Have you tried to parry punish his side b? Mario up smash cant do it. And that move is fast. He moves so fast you literally cannot punish with most if any moves...maybe diddy up smash or charizard up smash but you get the point. Also i agree with making the parry window bigger so you can actually punish consistently without running in for a grab or straight up never punishing due to only having 2(?)frame advantage.
If they change nothing else bc it's working as intended, they should probably make sure it doesn't do that weird lingering activation after the roll buffer lmao. They put a lot of emphasis on punishing people for repeatedly using defensive options like that, so that part is almost certainly not what they meant for it to do.
@@matiasrodriguez1588 P&M are nowhere close to being as bad as Smash 4 Bayo. I swear to god people comparing every good character to Smash 4 Bayo is almost as bad as game reviewers comparing every mildly difficult game to Dark Souls. They have a very good moveset, but they have no 0-to-death combos nor the ability to completely invalidate a good portion of the roster to the point that they can outright deny someone the ability to play the damn game. At this point a part of me almost hopes we actually do get a character as broken as Smash 4 Bayo was just so you crybabies can see the difference. The only reason they seem so good right now is because they're new and nobody really knows the matchup yet, same as it's been with every DLC character that everyone screamed about being "broken" a couple of days after their release before anyone truly learned how to deal with the new moveset.
Thing is, Bats Within should work like Foresight based off Bayo's own game, find it weird they made Foresight like this for Ultimate when Bayonetta doesn't have this mechanic.
Agreed. At this point with the overnerfs that bayo got and the petty almost useless buffs, I doubt it was to balance her out, it feels more like some sort of punishment lol
nah it's just because they wanted to do everything possible to keep bayo lowtier after what happened in smash 4 without completely removing any mechanics, and bat within was definitely part of what made smash 4 bayo so busted.
@@MuteSpectre Which is strange considering they've kept Fox and Pikachu consistent over their life period. Sometimes not the best, but def. not less than a mid tier.
@@XC11301991 It's the difference between a character being consistently high tier and pre-patch (and even post patch) smash 4 bayo being one of the most overpowered fighting game characters to ever exist in a platform fighter. There's even a precedent with what happened to Kirby after he was the definitively best character in Smash 64. (though he was nowhere near bayo levels) I think it's especially that Bayo's whole design philosophy lends to her being extremely strong, so they just killed everything about her to be safe. Not the ideal solution but one I fully understand.
Yeah except vshift can’t punish jabs in sf5 but foresight can punish jabs in ultimate, so its actually stronger, on top of not taking resources to use and being usable in blockstun
Did he? I don’t remember much from that presentation, but hopefully you’re right. The team’s done a good job with balance so far, and I don’t want them to drop the ball now, especially for these two.
@@Tonjit41 Yeah man this is like Brawl Meta Knight Smash 4 Bayo broken. I'm labbing this character not cause I want to because I have to since it invalidates the rest of the entire cast.
@@outseteddy6306 her skill tacks on 50% evasion for her and the whole party so you can slap on mad evasion on rex and become unkillable. Plus her third spoilery form has like the highest defense values in the game.
@@noponarchsage7360 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-I8QgISKL3Yw.html And mythra has some of the lowest defense values but her third form again has the highest value in the game
@@yukotrey9422 I know what you mean but it's only limited, so it's not worthy of a tank though her form is very much tank-like for the instant aggro switch.
You describe Foresight as Bat Within mixed with Witch Time, but it is actually possible to get both at once as Bayonetta since the activation windows overlap
Sakurai actually told in an interview they intended this mixture of Bat Within mixed with Witch Time for Bayonetta's dodges in Smash4 but scrapped the idea because it was too strong. They deinitely used that idea for Mythra's Foresight.
I hope so but I have this inkling feeling that maybe, just maybe they'll instead look to nerf her up-b's flying projectile damage before that. Why? There's no reason why.
People will probably figure out the counter play soon enough. Although the lingering foresight window after rolling back seems glitched and will probably be patched..
@@k-leb4671 If the only counterplay to a move is to wait for her to punish you , there is no counterplay. Your only punish option is to grab, which her frame 2 jab basically always punishes for free. Your only other option is to jump or run, meaning there is no punish.
@@k-leb4671 If it takes a while for there to be any players who know how to counter the move, the move is broken. You shouldn't have to watch videos or read guides to learn how to deal with one move that takes no skill to use.
Considering how bad grabs are and how easily and fast people can mash out a shield/roll/spotdodge, this is going to be an extremely obnoxious mechanic.
been tellin people this and they don't believe me, but mythra and pyra WILL be considered the best character and people will bitch for nerfs, just wait
@@daridon2483 And? Like how hero had a move that insta kills? Like how banjo had an invincible move? Like how sephiroth had a attack that covered everything? Like how byleth had a move that killed super early and ate shields? Everyone has been saying that every dlc is broken and it turns out they aren't. It's clear that the community can't decide what's op because they thought the only true op dlc was bad.
Except it covers her for *any* given reason. Even if you aren't mashy. Shes faster than half the cast, so characters with anything slower than her is at a hard disadvantage. She's even out of shield foresight Terry's jab. Yo a *jab* , lol. This character is not slow enough or weak enough to be given this level of advantage.
I found it pretty easy, but to be fair I'm hardly a Ridley main and a lot of the Mythra/Pyra players I fought were still pretty new with her. 1) punish Photon Edge with your side smash if they're bad enough that they spam it in neutral 2) use your neutral B breath to gimp them offstage since their recovery sucks
Sakurai actually told in an interview they intended this mixture of Bat Within mixed with Witch Time for Bayonetta's dodges in Smash4 but scrapped the idea because it was too strong. They deinitely used that idea for Mythra's Foresight
Foresight isn't broken. Something being good doesn't mean it's broken. The opponent can play around this and also you can't foresight a grab... Wow really busted when all you gotta do is grab... Also you can just read a defensive option and punish hard because she has the longest window to punish her defensive option. Just get good and stop saying things are busted when there not. The mind game is still in the aggressors favor and not in Mythras favor if she's being pressured
I mean the counterplay to Foresight really isn't much different than the counterplay to spotdodge universally. Also trying to fish for Foresight is a gamble as opposed to using Mythra's superior mobility to just avoid situations where you can get hit at all. Foresight is broken against predictable multihits yes. Trying to actually use it in the other contexts you suggested I don't think is as broken as you're implying.
@@jerry3115 when i mean bullshit i mean that theh can do so outlandish things, getting rewarded for getting hit and becoming incredibly powerfull (joker) screwing with terrain (steve) insane range (min min/ sephiroth) insane kill confirms (terry) etc. Not overpowered just annoying to fight against or just unfair to older characters
I think it's good, REALLY good compared to everyone else's roll, but I don't think it makes Mythra/Pyra broken. Getting free kills from switching still seems pretty situational, and if you start reaching for it, your opponent should be able to adapt.
If foresight doesn't proc off of grabs, wouldn't that be the play during neutral? You empty hop/ shmix up or whatever and go for a grab instead of an attack, and if they try to foresight an attack then the extra frames on rolls and spot dodge become punishable no? Ofc not every character would be able to do this because of end lag and what not, but just a what if.
@@r4tl_ Ah, that's understandable. I just thought of it from a traditional fighting game standpoint since in some games only a few characters have DPs so you handle them differently in neutral, and you shouldn't always be approaching with an attack in Smash anyways. I also thought of it as Cloud/Marth up B out of shield (except it's more ruthless) as well, where - sure - you can poke with a super safe attack but you're still getting punished for doing so because of those moves. My knowledge is pretty much limited to online play right now since I haven't been following the competitive scene lately after all the stuff that happened, so I'm thinking about this in a situation where you have input delay and you won't be as consistent with Mythra foresights.
I wasn't aware of the five extra frames of lag on rolls and spot dodges. Rather, I wasn't consciously aware of it. I could feel I was having a harder time moving afterwards, but I wasn't clear on why. That makes sense
Usually I think people overreact to DLC characters but this and Bayo in Sm4sh are some of the few times where you can actually tell that those moves just aren't fucking balanced lmao
No it doesn’t. Infact, given how slow most get up attacks are, Mythra’s vision is strongest against get up attack. In this game, get up attack is invincible on start up...but a ton of vulnerability at the end of it. That ledge option loses to normal shielding. You can just grab out of shield to punish. How much more unsafe do you think it’ll be against vision? Frick, get up attack loses to counters, one of the worst options you can do to when the opponent is hanging on the ledge. Reserved *only* for hard reads. How is it invalidating vision; a move that acts as dodge, but gets the benefits of 2 special moves??
I think people need to chill out and play the character more if people can learn to do this consistently without issue in tournaments then sure its broken but I don't see this being used like that in an actual match the storing part that's clearly a bug and needs to be fixed but the mechanic itself does not look consistent enough its gonna be like the other infinite loops and 0-deaths we already have in this game and almost never be seen is my guess but hey prove me wrong and I will agree it needs a change
I agree. But don't forget, photon edge is waaaaay punishable. Pyra has such a trash recovery and you gotta switch to mythra to photon edge back on to the stage, and unless you can get it right to grab the ledge or your opponent has good timing your dead.
Now uhm, where's the problem? That just sounds like a counter, where she is able to choose her option. And, how common is it to hit that out of a spot dodge, in an actual match. Yes, Mythra has a lot of combo potential and Pyra kill, yet, Pyra has a worse horizontal recovery than little mac, and Mythra ain't too much better. Yes, the double foreseight is stupid, but, look at how the damage also scales. I think it was intentional for if someone in a team match tries to counter foreseight. All in all, I just see it as a special counter, which you cant rely on all the time
Well if you want to compare it to actual counters, then this one has intangibility afterwards and extremely low endlag. Every other counter save for Joker's and Mii Brawler's leave you pretty vulnerable afterwards.
In a actual match with a good player it’s going to be more common especially because there are a lot of multi hits from top tiers. All in all it’s pretty stupid also why do people keep saying their recovery is superbly bad? It’s not even that bad.
@@eem2wavy133 so first of all, her counter. Yes, it is pretty safe, however, it also has a rather small window of being used, and in some cases, it can kill you. Second, her recovery. Pyra, yes it goes quite high, but that is all, her recovery is really bad. And second, Mythra, her up b, goes high and a bit fyrther thab Pyra's, but that's it, and side b, if used just an inch too low, then that will happen, you will die, how is it not bad?
@@Taraku43 1. if it’s a matter of it being a “ small widow “ then I don’t see it as a matter at it. The move itself is not that hard to pull off so timing it with the widow won’t be that difficult especially if your at a higher lvl. Think about it if people like leffen are saying that foresight is really good and damn near broken then what does that say? 2. Pyra recovery doesn’t even matter. There are no scenarios where pyra will be on the field unless the player is in a advantage state meaning pyra will only be pulled out if mythra won something in neutral. Mythra recovery isn’t that bad because skilled players will obviously know how to play around it. It’s not like her recovery is little Mac or wolf lvl of trash. While it’s not the best it’s certain better than some of the recoveries in the game.
@@eem2wavy133 1. Yes, this RU-vidr did say it, however, the twp are still new, so maybe wait out how it will turn out in the future 2. Pyra can also be usefull in neutral, as I already managed to kill a lot of skilled Mythra players with just her. However, just saying "Skilled players can do this and that" no, take Mythra's jump away and you have to decide, either recover horizontal, or vertically. Her recovery isn't one of the worst, but with her fast fall speed, your fall will be ofteb too fast for your side b to be of use and you are roo far to reach with your up b. I've seen it enough by now
Alright so the fact you want this toned down even a little bit is kinda ridiculous yea it might give her some really good options. But She has to *guess* as to when you're going to hit her or not like if you're getting hit by foresight and they're intentionally doing it you must've been mashin quite hard
@@FlyingAce369 yea....except when you remember counters are active for longer and can have a 100% chance of killing you at 50 or even 0 depending on the moves strength Since mythra has no actual "true" 50% combos other than the twitter 0 to death that can be slayed by DI
@@mathunit1 Indeed but you're hitting her shield with a multihit move and if you did then it probably was mid stage so you aren't dying until 140%+ for free
@@What_QuestionMark gets insane advantage cause people haven't figured out the counter play yet. Do you play single player games & ask the devs to patch a boss that's too hard to beat after losing 20 times in a row? No one here is ever gonna be a top player anyways so they all just gotta stop complaining. It hasn't even been a week.
@@LuisGonzalez0505 Is smash a single player game ? Mostly not, a boss has paterns to figure out. A real person is more complicated to defeat, especially if they abuse the mechanics
@@What_QuestionMark learn how to abuse them too & you'll learn the counter play faster. You can do anything you put the time into but making excuses, blaming devs, or complaining about it needing to be nerfed won't ever help you.
@@LuisGonzalez0505 I don't care about your "train to become better" bs, that's not my goal nor my point. I'm not complaining about their strenght, but the fact that they're glitched. Having a strong character's fine, idc. However, if they are broken, in the litteral way, that's a problem that needs to be fixed.
@@nicocchi Bayo was hated because she consistently did 0 to death combos and basically didn't have to play neutral at all. Only time will tell, but Mythra is balanced in the sense she can't kill easily and she still has to play neutral. She's just very good in neutral. And Pyra is bad in neutral.
Yeah Foresight is great but look at how high those percents are to kill as Mythra. And the clips you've showed where you're changing to Pyra isn't always going to be available. I don't think it's broken. It's damn strong when used well, but broken? I highly disagree.
If you have have good neutral (which mythra has in spades) you'll be consistently winning neutral and building damage. There are also combos that are available now where you swap between both characters to get damage done. Even at 0 percent mythra can get ftilt ftilt dash (tech chase a grab or a jab lock to forward b) usually resulting in a minimum of 42 percent. Mythra can easily rack damage up with optimized combos
*Pythra is Sora.* 🤔 Think about it … 🤔 - Switching (drive forms) - Floating during dash - Throwing weapon like boomerang (strike raid) - Weapon can shoot - Aerial movement flair (flipping and dipping) - Fire ring neutral special (firaga KH2) - Floating in place or drifting is possible (see neutral special movement) - Teleporting counter/ parry - (More obvious similarities … 😮) KH ⭐️ youtu. be/OIxMAyBb6I0 SSBU ⭐️ youtu. be/Z-BbgnedWPo
@@blues4509 i mean, i was just thinking when she's shielding, you can grab her while she's trying to dodge, which would be when she's trying to drop shield. 'course, this won't work as well with slow grabs. so, yeah, not really a shield grab moment unless you just really wanna touch shields before grabbing.
@@JoelTheParrot yeah certainly when she's shielding. I was just referring to the example given in the video where she can approach with a preemptive activation. I could've been clearer though
This felt like a slap in the face to bayo mains it just felt like they ripped the last cool unique thing bayo could do, made it better, and gave it to another character. I think sakurai even said he intended to use this for bayo but didn’t for some reason...
The way Foresight works is quite accurate to how it’s in Xenoblade 2; Enabling Mythra to counter anything she’s fast enough to punish. So I am guessing that this is all intended. My approach to nerfing this would be either taking full damage or getting knockback if Mythra has too much damage.
Wait so two dlc characters are released back to back one from ff and is good but as some counters and the other from a once obscure franchise until Nintendo made the sequal a new console launch title history is repeating its self
Don’t complain about Pyra’s speed, if you need to run up to your opponent, switch to mytrha, run up, switch back if you want high damage, don’t if your going for go for some quick damage, or a mix up
If she freezes after foresight, then what's the unique part of the move? It'll just be a parry where you take damage, plus would her roll and spotdodge still have extra punish frames at the end? I'm pretty sure the way it is was intended.
