A flight instructor, who was in the airport traffic pattern for runway 14, reported that he observed the number 5 airplane and number 6 (accident airplane) depart in formation to the northeast without incident. The instructor stated that he saw the number 5 airplane initiate a climbing right 180° turn, similar to a chandelle maneuver, from an altitude of about 800 feet above ground level (agl). He estimated that throughout the turn, the bank angle of the airplane was about 70° to 80°, until it reached an altitude of about 1,200 feet agl. The instructor further reported that he observed the number 6 airplane conduct the same maneuver, however, at the top of the turn, the airplane entered a spin, and remained in a constant rate spin, until it descended into terrain. The instructor added that it appeared that no attempt to recover had been initiated
I have flown that airplane and it is very unforgiving of steep turns without proper airspeed and it takes 10,000 feet to recover from a stall spin. Many pilots were killed during training by making similar mistakes.
What a effing clusterfuck of an operation, that poor controller trying to deal with this clusterfuck. So much for a team flight. Everybody goes, or nobody goes.
These are some of the most bizarre radio comms I have heard. Sounds like a primary school teacher trying to organise unruly and uncooperative 8 year olds at the annual athletics carnival.
I don`t think the controllers did anything wrong, the fault lay completely with the team and their flawed comms system. Most aerobatic teams have one aircraft to deal with all radio comms, this team didn`t do that, plus they largely disregarded what ATC, tower and ground told them. Arrogance or stupidity, or a bit of both from the pilots, in my opinion.
This is my first time hearing this audio: I worked on the ground crew for Skytypers West (Los Angeles) in the late '70's/early '80's, and - pardon my language, BUT, this is the kind of shitshow in which something like this happens! Who in TF is teaching these people to operate like this!?!? When I worked for Skytypers West, if one plane had a problem, then NONE of them would take off: either they all went together & formed up after departing the airports' air space, or they all aborted together - there was no exception. And, when in the air, only the lead plane spoke to ATC, because the formation stayed together. Lead plane would call as "Skytypers, flight of 5 aircraft" (when they were working, only 5 planes would go up). They took off one ahead of the other, and they landed one ahead of the other - no other planes snuck in-between the flight. Furthermore, all of the pilots had to not only have years of experience in T-6's, they also had to be experienced formation pilots. What in TF were these guys doing? Out west, they had a very impressive pool of pilots that they employed...I don't know where Skytypers East found these guys, but I'm not impressed. These guys have lost several planes over the last 15-20 years: Skytypers West never lost a single one.
@@pavelavietor1 True but the pilots had no clue what they were doing. Lead even says at one point that they need to regroup and all land and figure it. Far more the 6 ship goat rope's fault than the controller.
"That controller was in total command" -Well except for the fact that they aren't "unfortunately of a bunch of clueless aviators" -Specifically how so?
those boys aren't paying attention to the tower and after flying formation myself it's really easy to get low and slow especially on the inside of the lead and you CANT look at your instruments at all, especially close in. It's on #1 to fly fast enough to keep his wingman safe. The issue here is likely a medical primary cause as the witness said he saw no recovery effort.
We gotta get you some more subs. Excellent graphics and overall quality ✌️. And yea, a clusterf**k indeed. Pretty rude for these guys to ignore ATC like that.
The whole idea of forming up is to make ops easier for multiple airplanes and act as one. This just sounded like a cluster. Do the break and #1 go back over there? Just land and no need to be over the crash site. Even better…. Break up the form mess and land as singles.
RIP: this was really the beginning of the end for the Skytypers. I flew into KFRG over the summer. There was a Skytyper AT-6 doing a run-up while I was there, but I don't think there are any plans to reactivate the team with historic aircraft on the East coast.
@@cgtbrad From what I gather, Skytypers East and Skytypers West, are two separate entities as of...maybe 15 years ago? Skytypers West sold off their T-6's, and are using something newer (and cheaper), and are still run by the Stinis family - and to date, still no such issues out west. I remember when this happened, but heard it may have been something mechanical, and I left it at that. But hearing this, geez...
@@Britcarjunkie the website seems to indicate that they are/were somewhat joint? When I was at KFRG, what appeared to be one of the west coast Tigers there.
@@cgtbrad When the company was originally founded, they were one in the same: Greg Stinis ran the west coast operation, and his dad (who was elderly back then, but founded the company) ran the east coast operation. I haven't spoken with Greg in...gawd...some 40 years(!), but I know one of his sons took over the west coast (his sons were damn near babies, last time I saw them!). Been a few years since I checked, but Greg was still in the background out west. I hope he's still with us, because he's a great guy: I only quit working for him because they got kicked out of Long Beach Airport when Douglas Aircraft decided to build the C-17 production buildings on the same corner of the field that we were on - and the only place Greg could find to move at the time, was Palm Springs! Back then, general aviation in L.A. was so big, most airports had a 5-6 year waiting list for an outside tie-down spot! That was a bit of a commute for this teenager at the time. The T-6's they use are the Navy SNJ-2 variant - the oldest / rarest version of the T-6, and when I worked for them, they had about 15-16 of them: only real differences between them & later models, is they still ran the inertial starters (we could hand-crank them to get them started, if need be), and the different rudders. Other than those things, they're basically the same, so parts aren't a problem. In fact, two of the west coast T-6's were former Hollywood Mitsubishi Zeroes, and had single seat cockpit mods to resemble them, and had been used in the film "Tora! Tora! Tora!". Another "fun fact": they were originally painted red with white wings. The reason for their light gray paint, was the result of the west's planes being used in the Spielberg film "1941", the planes had been stripped & re-painted for the film, and Miller Brewing subsequently began sponsering them as "The Miller Squadron", right after production was done. Anyway, not sure why the west coast operation sold them all off: I know it wasn't due to a lack of parts, pilots, or mechanics, as there are plenty of competent ones here. Back when I was there, even the founders of the Condor Squadron would fly for them on occasion. I can only guess that the west selling off their T-6's was a cost-cutting move, under the presumption that parts were getting harder to find. I doubt it though, with the sheer number of T-6's still around, but who knows. I'm pretty sure both operations are still the same in name only these days, because judging by this audio, the east coast operation clearly isn't being run in the same manner as the west coast operation. Greg didn't run the business with an iron fist, but he did have pretty plain and matter-of-fact procedures in place, that the east has apparently thrown out the window. If they're still running the east coast operation, I sure hope they cleaned house after this crash.
These so called professional pilots basically ignored most of the controllers instructions. A team like this should have a single aircraft that handles all the radio comms, if there is a problem with one aircraft, they all return or don`t even depart. Return to your hanger / parking and once the problem has been ID`d and fixed, than start again if possible. If that`s not possible, the other aircraft may decide to continue with one aircraft down. This teams comms set-up is a mess and I detect a certain amount of arrogance from the pilots. The other thing is the SNJ, Texan, Harvard or it`s other names was well known for being a tricky aircraft to fly. The common term in WWII was if you can fly one of these, you could fly anything. They are known for not being forgiving in tight turns,and can take quite a bit of height to recover, so you have to wonder why at least two of the aircraft performed such steep bank angles at low altitude, one of which, Skytype 6 ended up in a fatal spin. Totally avoidable accident.
All I can say is WTF do we have as many as 8 planes running around above our heads typing letters in the sky in the first place. This is not 1950. We have internet, cell phones, Radio, Tv. This is a dangerous dumb business. Flying 80 year old aircraft. Just glad these guys didn’t drop a plane on some poor housewife’s kids.
@@virgilhilts3924 You keep asking questions as though you have a vested interest in this operation. Perhaps, then, you would tell us what YOU think went wrong?
This is like hurting a bunch of cats. Very disorganized on part of the formation flight. If you have two people, your flight, come back a taxi to ground and go park until you get your shit together.
@@virgilhilts3924 what part did you did I understand? That two of their planes out of a five plane formation we’re having problems? Or lack of response on comms, or the lack of airship from an airline pilot? That caused his own accident
"Our airport"...? 🤣 You aren't a pilot and don't have an airport. You haven't the slightest clue what is going on here, if you did you wouldn't make such an absurd statement.
RIP, but these "skytype" bozos can't communicate for SHIT. #1 is just making up his own ATC as he wants, and everybody else in the flight is doing whatever.
@@larrylewislarry because that's generally the first word they use to activate the VOX to begin transmitting. They use this feature for hands-free radio comes. They can use the PTT though instead. I guess it's personal preference/situational.
This just sounds like its gonna end bad? The ATC is working on a coronary and the guys in their old planes sound like they have old a$$ equipment. Which, I just want to say, I love older planes especially WWII Fighters but if you're gonna stick your nose into big boy airports invest in some quality communication equipment........... pleeasassseee!
@@Gmantsb I think its just pilots - old AND young - that don't have a clue. I never got my license, but I've had so much time in T-6's, that I can easily fly one, and if you get into a stall or a spin, simply POINT THE DAMN NOSE DOWN!!! That's all you need to do, and it'll recover. Just last year, a lady got herself killed in a T-6 leaving Oshkosh - same damned thing, she stalled it, it went into a spin, and she didn't know what to do. When I worked at Skytypers, I also worked at a place that restored T-6's, and occasionally other warbirds, and I got a LOT of backseat time in them & other stuff: T-6's are pretty docile aircraft, when compared to a P-51 (which, I also got backseat time in...). Yes, they have around 600hp, but if you consider that a '51 can put out upwards of 3000hp (if tuned right), yes, T-6"s are docile, and the plane does give you time to do things - it's a trainer, after all. I have heard that basic private pilot training these days doesn't cover spin or stall recovery - which it did 40 years ago (at least, instructors I knew, were covering it with their students), so I'm guessing that has a lot to do with what happened - pilots aren't learning things they should be learning anymore, and there are less and less pilots around, that really knew what these planes can and can't do. (Many of the guys and gals I knew back then are long gone) This pilot flew F-18's? Okay, but a F-18 isn't an AT-6. Earlier this year, I saw a video in which a guy that flew F-15's and F-16's flew an Ercoupe for the first time (probably the EASIEST plane to fly!) - and was scared to death of it, because it had no rudder pedals! Seems these days, people are flying planes, but they're not FLYING planes.
Airspeed and AOA at all times . How can they get “ slow “ ? How does that even happen without Engine failure or aliens or …….. pilot malfunction or WTF ? Airspeed - number one item to fly Fixed wing aircraft ! Regardless of anything , Airspeed and wing angle of “ attack “ . Physics . Fly with lift generated by the wings at speed thru the air mass or , fall from whatever altitude --> O dear 😢 such a shame that this accident happened Shit damn it man
I think it was the angle of bank which led to it…A flight instructor, who was in the airport traffic pattern for runway 14, reported that he observed the number 5 airplane and number 6 (accident airplane) depart in formation to the northeast without incident. The instructor stated that he saw the number 5 airplane initiate a climbing right 180° turn, similar to a chandelle maneuver, from an altitude of about 800 feet above ground level (agl). He estimated that throughout the turn, the bank angle of the airplane was about 70° to 80°, until it reached an altitude of about 1,200 feet agl. The instructor further reported that he observed the number 6 airplane conduct the same maneuver, however, at the top of the turn, the airplane entered a spin, and remained in a constant rate spin, until it descended into terrain. The instructor added that it appeared that no attempt to recover had been initiated
@@CramcrumBrewbringercorrect. The lead pushed it too close and is lucky he didn’t die too. The wingman’s focus is on lead. Lead should have kept a higher safety margin to allow his wingman to stay safe.
Maintenance of aircraft is heavily regulated, after 80 years and regular use as a skywriter very few parts are actually original. Parts can fail and airplanes can crash regardless if its 100 years old or fresh from the factory.
If you've flown more than a handful of times in your life, you've been on a 30-40 y/o aircraft. Wtf you think the airlines do? Throw em out while it can still function just fine?
