Four things about archery they get wrong in the movies 

"Fire!" Archers panic and rout.

I love how this guy never edits, if he forgets something he just lets us watch as he tries to remember it xD I do love you lindybeige

To be fair most filmmakers don't understand guns very well either.

It does build up tension, in the bow.

Not nitpicking,but Aragorn says release the arrows in elvish. The subtitles were the ones that translated it incorrectly.

The biggest inaccuracy I see is that archery is seen as being for physically weaker fighters, especially women. Swords are for the big strong blokes. Of course, in reality the exact opposite was the case- the archers were the big guys who needed big muscles.

Aragorn shouts "release the arrows" on elvish not fire!

I was so pleased when they shout "Loose!" instead of "Fire!" in Game of Thrones. I believe it was at the Battle of the Blackwater.

I noticed my low elbow when I played back the footage. I can report that I never needed to wear a protector on my wrist when I did archery.

Oh, it does build up tension. In the actors' tendons.

um the orcs were going to war against the horse lords... pikes were a good idea

"A truer shot was never loosed! That bat will be grounded for a good spell."

@Rosak I can report that I've never had trouble with the string hitting my arm, but perhaps other people have differently shaped arms. In any case, there were such things as bracers - guards that protected the inner forearm from the string. Better to get hit harmlessly in the wrist than waste energy or lose power in draw technique. "Shoot", not fire.

In German they yell "Pfeile Los" which literally means "release arrows". I think they got it much better.

Aaragorn yells "release arrows" :D

To be fair, the Uruk-hai march out of Isengard believing they're going to fight Rohan' cavalry. So it's not that bad they take pike with them...

i am an experienced archer myself and where to place your arrows be it on your back in your bowhand or in a sidequiver is more or less about preference but it really dpends on the situation if you want to carry a ton allot of arrows the best place to have them is on your back and when you arrive at the battle ground on a line with other archers you perhaps take 6 or 7 arrows out of the quiver stick them in the ground to make them easely accesible.

I'm positive this has been mentioned before, but like a good reactionary LotR nerd, I'll add it anyway for emphasis years later. There's a logical reason for the pikes of the Uruk-Hai that had little to do with the siege itself. In order to get from Isengard to Helm's Deep the whole army had to cross the plains of Rohan on foot, even taking time to cross the Fords of Isen with all their siege equipment and so on. Their enemy was a nation of horsemen, and the reason they were weak enough to attack at all was because their various banners and groups of riders were disillusioned and scattered, not destroyed. Pikes were a necessity on the march and for defending the rear of the army during the siege itself, though as we've seen, the gratuitous charge from the side (coupled with a sudden burst of sunlight) rendered the whole idea of keeping a coherent pike formation a failure. As for charging the walls with said pikes, well... Until you've got a chance to get up a ladder or go through a hole or something, if you don't have a shield, you might as well just keep holding your pointy stick up and hope it deflects something or someone falls on it. Perhaps Saruman should have invested in more shields, but again, carrying bulky steel shields on your back or arm while holding a pike for the march is taxing. And when you have ten thousand disposables to their couple hundred, you just aren't thinking in terms of minimizing losses. Even in the scenes of the movie - always suspect for accuracy, but still - as soon as the Deeping Wall was breached you don't see any of the Uruk-Hai rushing through actually holding their pikes, instead switching to more sane and rational things like swords for closer combat.

@Boomsha8 Apparently it depends which version you see. In mine he says "fire" in the subtitles of his Elvish command.

Couldn't agree more, but one very important point that you left out was that keeping a wooden bow held at full draw for a longer time than necessary will also seriously damage the bow and cause it to lose its power. The same effect happens when a wooden bow is left strung overnight. I say "wooden bow" because most bows you see nowadays are made of fiberglass and can be held at full draw forever without being damaged. However, a traditional all-wooden longbow will simply not put up to the strain, especially at higher draw weights.

I love this guy, He has never changed in 10 years.

They also have this notion that bows can be used for close quarter combat. As if it's an smg or a shotgun.

#4 - shout out to Larry Olivier. Perhaps film's greatest volley of archery as the Battle of Agincourt opens in the 1944 Herry V. Larry (as Henry) keeps his archers at full draw for what seems like an age before signaling to loose.

2010? Jesus Christ took me this long yo find this man? I was 10 when this came out

I did appreciate your point about holding release on arrows in films. See it all the time in LotR and you occasionally see a guy struggling to keep his grip but more often than that they're standing there fine. It was actually Game of Thrones where an archer highlighted the issue of holding the release; saying you wouldn't have time to hold in a proper battle. When you draw, you fire....I mean, release..shoot...whatever..

Drizzle doesn't work in film because the camera will have trouble seeing enough of the drop to make it look like it's raining. I've shot in a real light drizzle before and we simply ignored the rain and the camera couldn't tell that it was even there. I've also shot while it was snowing once, even though the scene took place in Belize and the tiny bit of snow the camera caught just looked like rain.

Actually, Mr. Lindybeige, there have been historical instances of armies bearing pikes in sieges. When Alexander the Great besieged Pellium, his army entered a valley with a river to their left and hills encompassing the valley around them, which were held by the Illyrians, so it became a siege within a siege. Alexander surprisingly had his army doing drills. In doing these drills, the Macedonians swung their pikes back in forth like a well-oiled machine, creating a loud whooshing noise, followed by a loud war cry. It was so unexpected that it drove the majority of them off the hills, which gave Alexander the advantage he needed to eventually win the Balkan Campaign.

I love the fact you use 'twang' as a tag.

Your bow arm shouldn't be too bent but it definitely shouldn't be locked when you draw, it grants a much greater chance of the string hitting your arm as you loose and an arm guard only covers your forearm. This can actually be very painful

Protip: you don't fire a gun with a bent arm, either. =p

Are these war bows or hunting bows? Hunting bows can be far lower poundage.

The Uruks went with pikes becouse Rohan was the kingdom of the horse and the raider. It´s like you say in anorther video Lindybeige, if you fight a dragon you don´t go with a sword. The bad guys expected cavalary becouse the reputation of the enemy they were going to attack had tons of raiders.

About the creaking noise associated with drawing, I think it's not the stave creaking as much as the bowstring supposedly rubbing against the string supports, sort of like leather against wood. So basically, it is possible to use such a bow, but with such friction the string would probably quickly wear down, so still the sound is cretinous, not to mention the stealth penalty. I really enjoy watching your movies on these topics and look forward to seeing some new ones. Cheers.

Well, in the books, they all say “fire” aswell, so technicallu, Tolkien got it wrong, not the movie ;)

@Bankstercide Yes, one can tip the top end to the right, and by this method shoot over the top of an obstacle while using it for cover. This technique shortens the draw and harms accuracy, though.

In the Two Towers, your Aragorn reference, he actually says (in one of the elvish dialects) Release Arrows. It's one of Theoden's captains, I forget if it's Gamling or Hama, calles fire. I also agree with the point made that the pikes were to discourage cavalry charges in a land ruled by 'Horse Lords'. The pikes were also long enough to discourage the defenders of the outer wall from leaning out to aim at the base of said wall.

I have noticed that pvc bows do creak when used but not wood bows

Aha! so the old man in LOTR at Helms deep was not unprepared for battle, he was just the only good actor in the movie xD

Aragorn said 'Release Arrows' or more precisely "Hado i philinn!" Though, Elrond says "Leithio in phlilin!" or "Fire Arrows" in the first film. xD I want to thank you for all these videos. I like writing historical fiction involving war and combat and these videos really help me. You're great.

The thumbnail is mightily impressive. I was in terror for my life. Agreed on all points. I have often watched films and thought the fourth. Another mistake directors make, confusing guns and bows, is to forget that the bow is most effective en masse. A thousand archers on a battlefield are powerful. A single archer in a small room is not quite so terrifying.

I am certain you will not see this, but someone else might, the Uruk-hai brought pikes to helms deep for two reasons, one: they were expecting mounted reinforcements, so they wanted to be able to counter them quickly, two: they had notches in the blades so they could prop up the ladders.

When viking archery champion Einar Thambarskelfir (The String Trembler) broke his own bow at the Battle of Svolder, he got the bow of his king, Olaf Tryggvasson. However he was very surprised that it was too light for him, and yelled "Too weak, too weak for the bow of a mighty king!" before flinging it aside and continuing with sword and shield. While he fought on valiantly, they eventually lost the battle and the king died.

Literal tension and figurative tension do not mix

@91Roadwarrior Apparently he does this in the subtitles for the Director's Cut DVD.

I like how the often draw their war bow and then enter into an elaborate conversation with their foe at their own leisure, without the mentioned signs of fatigue.

@MrBluebirdsfc 'Loose', and 'shoot' were used, I think. There may have been others.

Or were they for use against horses?

In defense if the pikes; Rohan are known for their cavalry, so bringing pikes along would have been a no brainer, just as a back up in case some riders were to try and flank them. Didn't do them much good when actual cavalry did attack them, and there was no reason to wield them during the siege, that I'll grant you.

The creaking bows are the equivalent to a related detail with firearms which drives me absolutely insane in films and television: the sound of a hammer being pulled back on any pistol, whether a revolver or automatic, every time somebody points one or even moves one. Quite often this happens with pistols which don't even have external hammers of any kind, like Glocks. Doesn't matter though...in film, all pistols make cocking noises when you point them, just as all shotguns make the pump sound.

I sense a trap in this question. I would point out that no one knows how medieval soldiers fought exactly, and anyone who pretends to is speculating and conjecturing. The best we can ever managed is an informed guess. Joining a re-enactment society can help, or at least talking to re-enactors, many of whom are very knowledgable.

In the episode of Game of Thrones "Blackwater" (or something) when King's Landing is under siege, they say "Loose!" as a signal to "fire" their arrows. When I saw that I immediately thought of this video and had a good laugh thinking "I hope Lloyd is watching this"

What about the sound of the arrow flying out? Or how an arrow will kill in a split second on impact?

even in mime, seeing the bent arm while 'drawing' made me cringe.

1. They were uruk hai, not orcs. Similar but different. 2. The uruk hai were going to war against Rohan, famously known for the vast and well trained horse armies. Pikes were a great idea to bring, even if the plan was to assault a castle.

3 fingers are used when drawing a bow not 4 ..just to criticize the critic 😂😂

@MooseHunter911 And they forgot to put them down?

Destroy a castle with spears... in Age of Empires II you can (but expect to lose something like 50 pikemen if the enemy developped murder holes...)

The fifth point (I agree with all said here) that really irked me to no end, was the fact that they waited until the soldiers were well within minimal range (even for light poundage bows, which they were not supposed to be using in the film :P) before they even considered shooting them. Great advantage of the bow, it can take the guy down (or at least hurt him somewhat) before he gets to you... It is not for close range. Great video, look forwards to more.

All good points. All film-makers need an archery master with deep knowledge.

I can't agree with the first two. 1) LotR uses Modern English instead of the supposed languages of the time. In modern English, people 'fire' a bow. It may sound silly, but they do. 2) Orcish bows may well have been awful - the orcs were not famed weaponsmiths - so perhaps it's not unrealistic that some orc-bows creaked.

@Octavius0 Right, but you can't start a cavalry charge from inside a castle, right? Oh, no, wait, with the magic of CGI, you can. Still, they'd only need a few orcs at the base of the ramp to see to that.

I don't believe Aragorn says Fire, he doesn't even speak in English... Lol

The Uruk-Hai didn't expect a siege against the Rohirrim, they expected an open fight on the plains (where the Rohirrim would certainly employ cavalry). They were not well equipped for a siege on purpose.

Btw, I get it when some humans in LotV doing some mistakes pulling bows, but if it's elf like Legolas doing those mistakes, you can't be sure in his capabilities. He's totally different species, he has sharper eyes, he can walk on snow without stomping it... Their bread, with just one loaf, can fulfill your hunger for the rest of a day. Of course, their powers and bows are quite the same too. You better consider this type of speed-shooting a superpower.

Howard Hill and countless other archers do shoot with a bent elbow, it is very effective as the initial movement of the bow hand is to the target. Olympic archers mostly shoot with an extended arm, but they have all those stabilizers to delay the natural opening of their stance at the loose. Howard was very powerful, and in a different time got like 16 inches of penetration in an Elephant skull when he needed at least 18. You don't get that from a longbow of low weight.

Once again gotta go to batt for Helms Deep again (cough cough Matt Easton). The prop designers did a great job I think, as the Uruks piles are 1. There for the long March through Calvary territory (rohan) and for incoming Calvary attacks during the siege and 2. (More nuanced) have a hooked back to **help raise the siege ladders** which is a smart little asset. Saruman was very industrious and this design point is a cool little nod to that. A not so little multi-tool on the end of a pike! No uruks are seen on the walls fighting with pikes, they’ve all got their machetes out OR greatswords for the berserkers. Granted, this weaponry isn’t described to my knowledge in the books, and I can see why a sea of pikes seems odd outside the castle. But I think the designers actually thought this out and did a good job.

Great! Finally someone who is telling what i was thinking since i began to learn the use of bows! It's like in U-boat movies, the german command for launching torpedoes was ''Los!'' or ''Launch'', but the american always say ''fire'' (although this may be historically accurate for the english submarine crew, i find it most ridiculous to set a torpedo ablaze X-D ) Sorry for my bad english, but i like your videos very much, this was the only reason why i subscribed to RU-vid ;-)

I always understood the shout for archer's was "loose" as in Let Go ? I'm waiting for frozen driving rain that comes in horizontally, in a film. It gets in your eyes so painfully you can barely open them.

The orcs taking pikes to Helm's Deep actually makes a fair amount of sense. Considering the fact that they were marching into a country known for its reliance on cavalry, pikes would be quite useful if ever they were attacked from behind by a mass of horsemen, it didn't help at all but still, its the thought that counts.

At Helms Deep, all the men climbing the ladders onto the wall were swordsmen, while those attacking the gate were shield bearers. The pike was used to charge through a large breach in the wall and form a pike block on an open courtyard, and later to attempt to repel a cavalry charge. I fail to see the problem. Historically, pikes were used in sieges until the late 17th century. This is confirmed by historical accounts, illustrations, and the fact that Vauban bothered to forbid them.

Yes, just what I was about to write. Saruman didn't equip them for a massive siege, Theoden's decision to march there was a surprise to him. It was much more logical for the Rohirrin to stay in the open field and try to manouver out the uruks, shooting them and occasionally charging, and that's what they were mostly been prepared for. The other mistakes stay as bad as they were though...

About number 4: Gladiator does show that! The commander orders about four soldiers to execute two deserters and they ready their arrows and he takes his sweet time to tell them to shoot, so you can see them actually being fatigued by drawing it for so long.

The pinch the arrow loose is perfectly normal, a lot of native cultures use it, and kill plenty with it. I would not try a 140 pound longbow that way, or even my 80 pounders. Some cultures carved the nock to provide a little purchase, and others used the middle and ring finger on the string, but just pressing, not hooked as in the med. release. Other things they did was pull straight back to the face, all arms. It is unbelievably easy to shoot accurately this way. I once wanted to scare away a squirrel in the raspberry bushes out back. My daughter's 15 pound red glass bow was handy, so I pinched and pulled back to my face, just guessing at the arc in flight. I took dead aim at the squirrel figuring that would make him all the safer. Zipped the little 5/16" arrows right through him from about 12 yards. The holdover was mostly luck, but the left right was perfect, and felt very natural. Been shooting and hunting for almost 50 years, but I couldn't have counted on that shot with a regular bow. Sadly for the squirrel.

I think the "fire" thing can be written up to a translation. It's like how some people get upset about the x-wing in Star Wars. There's no reason an alien race from another galaxy would use our alphabet. But there is the chance that they had a similarly shaped letter, even with a different meaning, and it was therefore translated along with the rest of the script. If you had a story written in Middle Earth-ese, and it said "and then he yelled [hard to translate]", fire is reasonable.

Weird, i always thought the creaking noise from movie bows sounded like hemp rope being twisted and turned.

Something else that bugs me about bows in movies is how they aim with the arrow on the outside rather than the inside.

Fun fact: the command 'fire' in relation to firearms, has an American origin, specifically during the Revolution. When the Baron Von Stueben was developing weapon drill for the Continental Army, he changed the command from 'discharge your weapons' to 'fire' because it was shorter, easier to understand, and easier for him to stay (he barely spoke any English at that point).

Well said, but as an avid archer I have to say you can keep your bow arm bent a little, but just a little. There isn't one proper way to position your pulling arm, but generally keeping it under your chin is a bad idea, the favorite among traditional target shooters is keeping your hand somewhere around the corner of your mouth or cheek area with an average 28 inch draw.

Some accounts would seem to indicate that a pinch release was used in the Americas and possibly in early Assyria (based on some images in reliefs). Grecian archers have also been accused of using that draw as well, but all of the best archers in Greek armies were foreign troops anyway!

Well you can use the pinch draw like they show in films. But you have to possess considerable finger strength, or the bow has to be considerably weak. But there are quite a number of examples of the pinch draw being used throughout history. It was widespread throughout the Americas, and has also been depicted on Assyrian reliefs. It's also a "cleaner" release than the Mediterranean draw. Minor nitpick though, it's the Siege of the Hornburg. Not Helm's Deep.

I know those things but there is one detail I wonder about, would it make sense to threaten somebody with a drown bow (lets say you ambush people and surround them without them noticing and then as you emerge from cover threaten them with drawn bows), but just for a 4 seconds lets say, so they should surrender their weapons and you will not shoot them.

@GadgetMart Flaming arrows required specialised arrow heads. Lighting a regular arrow head on fire would simply burn the shaft and you have probably already found out.

I find older movies tend not to do the creeking or holding the draw for very long. Quite a few I seem to remember have ranks of archers just appear on the screen and quickly draw upwards and release. Though only about 3 arrows come down to kill selected unnamed soldiers around the heroes.

The "4" bit had me in stitches.

@Segalmed And in Singing in the Rain, they added milk to make it visible, and the studio stank.

It's interesting to note that while much derided as a fantasy film, in "Hawk The Slayer" there's a scene where a human longbow man is pitted against an elven bowman. The character who acts as 'second' calls out "3 ... 2 ... 1 ... Shoot!" It may be fantasy but it's more accurate than LotR! :-D

Or the fact that movies give loosed arrows a whistling or screeching sound as they are “fired” lol

Summary: 1) Archers were not summoned to release arrows by shouting fire. 2) Bows did not creak. 3) Bows were difficult to draw. 4) Archers never waited with drawn bows.

The whole draw and hold...hold...bit went thru my mind during the Battle of Blackwater Bay in GoT. Ser Davos kept his bowman ready for quite a long time.

2:35 that "ehh pew" made my day.

It's amazing how far you have come! Keep up the good work! BTW: you could rant more often about movies

I got a theory for the pikes in helms deep: Every other city in Rohan we see is terribly indefensible and more or less the nation's whole army is nothing but cavalry, so I think the pikes were a logical choice for an invasion army to carry. I also think it is entirely possible that the army had already been launched when the A team convinced Theodin to go to HD, since Isengaurd was much farther away and they arrive within hours of each other. Maybe they planed to intercept and force a battle?

That creaking noise (part of it leastways) would probably be from the bowstring grinding against the wood as you draw. I shoot a wooden bow(50 Ibs) with a leather string, and it creaks a little, but absolutely not "hollywood loud"

@Danie9989 I never liked Tolkein elves - they were never believable. If you think that they can hold a bow without expending energy to do so, then fine, but that's not my style of fantasy. I bow to your apparently superior knowledge of the eleven tongue. I was reading the subtitles.

I don't know if history records this, but it strikes me as unlikley

Aragon did not say fire, but it was said by one of the officers of Rohan, apart from that totally agree and love these ones

Not disputing a single thing that you are saying, but I was watching this video and all I could think was "this is why history buffs shouldn't watch 'historical'/fantasy films." Other than that, I really love your videos! I've watched about ten in the past hour. Please keep it up!

Did you see Jim McQuarrie's (archery trainer) articles in Wired (online) about the bad archery in the Avengers, the (mostly) good archery in Hunger Games, and the "looks like it will be excellent" archery in Pixar's upcoming "Brave" animated movie? Just found your channel, new subscriber, never thought I'd see swing and swords in one place. =)

They marched right up to the walls with them, and halted in formation with them.

To be fair a pinch draw is used in a lot of Native American archery. Of course it's usually used with shorter bows with a maximum draw weight of about 90 pounds, with about 50-60 pounds being the average, with a short draw (just to the chest) and shot instinctively with no time spent holding the arrow back and aiming. It was just pinch the arrow, push out with your bow hand, pull back with the string hand and release. Of course that style of archery was also intended for shorter range and targets not wearing any armor, so it would have been mostly useless on a European medieval or Renaissance battlefield.