Frigate Duels of the War of 1812 - USS Constitution vs HMS Java 

Had the War of 1812 gone on for longer and the Americans built their own freshwater first-rate to counter HMS St. Lawrence, how would the naval situation on Lake Ontario turn out?

wasn't this encounter the basis for Master and Commander?

In your opinion, what class or type of ship was the most cost effective?

What exactly is raking fire. Why is it important that it is done from the bow?

​ raking fire is when they hit a ship from the bow or Stern. They're the weakest points on an old age of sail ship because they had those Open Spaces where everyone lived and had the artillery so there was nothing to stop the shots from going straight through. I hope that helps, but I'm hoping he'll answer this question because I would like his input as well😊

That's really cool.

What a total…..Chad….😂

Thank you for sharing!

I will also hope for the same 😊

Name checks out

Absolutely! 😎

I just let the ad play,, the AI notices when you skip ads...

For sure. I kind of despise how the internet became as corporatized and for profit as TV.

​@jonny-b4954 Somebody has to pay the bills! What Drachinfel does isn't cheap!

@@mahbriggsNo doubt. I don't mind it. It just sucks in an ideal world. I mean, without ad blocker, literally 50% of my screen is ads.

I have a different mental picture of Java’s crew bent over with their cheeks spread, waiting, hoping for lube.😄

"I'm going -shopping- looting. What do we need?"

One of the better books in a fantastic series.

That battle is a wild ride in the book. I thoroughly recommend it.

Aw Dangit... I just posted something simaler. (Shoulda read the other comments first.) Anyway, that IS a fantastic series, one which I reread every few years. The NY Times book review once called it the 'best historical fiction ever written.', etc. Cheers.

@@amh9494 what's your favorite book in the series? I lean towards 'The Ionian Mission', and 'Desolation Island' (other than the first book, anyway.) Cheers!

@@bholdr----0 I do enjoy the bits after the stock fixing outside of the navy if I'm honest.

Agreed

It was because it was far less important or dramatic. America becoming what America is today has made it more popular than actually should be. The American war of independence wasn't really that big of a deal in British history never mind 1812.

War of 1812 just part of Napoleonic Wars for the British of course not being a main theater mostly ignored and as US did not have a Navy to threaten England to the public I assume not that big a deal. Plus the American Revolution became the Bourbon War to England once France came in and like 1812 a minor theater compared with France. . But losing that much land and a war with the Revolution I would have to say British just did not want to think about it and the stupidity of Parliament that caused it. Refusal of seats just because the other side might be able to gain control of Parliament with the Colonies population it would not be that many seats. Although I do joke that having Parliament in that small of a space cost the British the Empire because they had no more space for seats. With seats the biggest gripe of the Americans would be over. Then ending the rules prohibiting the Colony from making fine clothing and goods would have lifted the other very taxing aggravation for the Colonies. Hostile to the colonies trade rules reduced the Colonies often having no currency to use having to resort to stuff like using bundles of Tobacco to trade. Note this unfavorable trade rules was a major factor that Gandhi used in hid campaign for India Independence. Gandhi spinning thread to make a point they should make their own clothing to address a very hostile trade imbalance and point out that the once thriving Indian textile industry known for a huge number of centuries had been ended by England. So I understand your point and as an American I often hit school American history classes for making such a big deal of not very important Frigate battles when the US was helpless to actually stop the British Navy overall. Both wars for US were the only thing for us but for the British they half lost in the conflicts with France of the same period. @@RonSill1986

Showed the Admiralty realising an 18pdr frigate shouldn't engage a 24pdr Frigate solo

@@richardcowling7381 Compare & contrast with how generals fought WW1 on both the eastern and western fronts a century later.

You know the funny thing is the admiralty could have made different choices and still been super effective. Could have spammed 64 or 74 gun razees if they wanted.

@@PaulfromChicagoThere was still a need to keep the 3rd rates in European waters to blockade the French ports. By the war of 1812, Napoleon had managed to rebuilt strong naval forces while much of the Royal Navy Battlefleet was worn down by the constant blockade duty.

Yes that is why they built the RAzee strenghth of a 64 gun ship and armed with 40

The dioramas are very good except that he should create a wind arrow, including any shifts that were reported. In addition, the yards of the ships could be turned to show them as they were trimmed(or backed to slow down or even hove to if thst is known). This is a normal function of sailors trying to draw out who did what etc. Racing sailors do it, collision cases do it, ALL captains do it when reporting a critical situation. Without knowing the wind an encounter is reduced to only manuver as if under power, with little explanation of how or why. And Drach, don't get me wrong I love you research and narrations. Cheers

Hard pounding, gentlemen! Let's see who pounds the longest...

I agree

A Swedish Metal version of the Star Spangled Banner would be... interesting.

Sabaton edition of "Coast of High Barbary" needs to happen

Yeah they're good. I do wish there was a band like them that wasn't metal though.

no, we dont need metal based 4 chord pop music

More garbage?

The Chesapeake vs Shannon is exemplary in this regard: The HMS Shannon: "Please fight us. It is honorable, good sir!" Also HMS Shannon: "Fire at the gun deck, kill the gun crews."

Not gonna lie to you American, at this point, even the Chinese are listening.

Don’t forget to wipe your nose.

That will be a quick one. Shannon's Captain was outstanding and took Chesapeake quickly.

​@@mastermariner7813"we'll thump em, again and AGAIN!"

​@@mastermariner7813 Bloodiest naval engagement of the war of 1812

Difficult. She is competing with Vasa in Stockholm. And when I visited Constitution in 2016, she was in drydock and stripped of many interesting things. Massachusetts at Battleship Cove was pretty cool, too. I definitely have to visit Victory, next time I get into the UK; after that it would be settled.

@@Kref3I need to visit Victory as well. Seeing Vasa would be real nice, but Victory trumps it on my to-do list. (can you actually step _on_ Vasa?) Also another neat thing in Mass. that a lot of people overlook are all the shipwrecks on Cape Cod. Some of them are close enough to shore where you can easily swim out to them... when they are exposed that is and you never know when that will be. Still, pretty neat thing to do if you ever get the chance. addendum: The Viking Ship Museum would be nice to visit as well, though no walking on those. addendum 2: I live 2 hours from Battleship Cove. Really, a lot of nice museum ships in this general area. Ranging from Constitution (yes yes, ship of state) and Salem to New Jersey and Olympia.

@@Kref3 btw, I really regret not going to see Constitution when she was in drydock. That is not something anyone will see too often.

Twice a year the Navy tows the Constitution out to Castle Island, where it exchanges a salute with the cannons in the old fort before returning to it’s dock. They do this to turn the ship so that it doesn’t always have the same side against the dock. About a dozen years ago I entered the free lottery for tix to be on the ship the next time it took its turn around Boston Harbor, and my name was picked! I was able to take my ten year old son with me to tour the ship, and stand on it’s deck as it led a small parade of ships around the harbor, and exchanged its salute. Truly one of the greatest experiences of my life.

@@Chesirecat111 That really is pretty awesome. I'm somewhat jealous.

You can't win 'em all, old boy.

Yeah I'd skip the next one, old boy.

The USA lost the war.

​@@JohnCampbell-rn8rz no one won the war and from a strategic perspective no one lose. The US goals of the war was to stop impressment of US sailors and to take part of Canada. The impressment stoped but Canada was not taken. The British goals were to keep Canada and stop American expansion west. As I said Canada stayed British but the US definitely expanded west.

@@jasonirwin4631 Why do I have to keep repeating this quote? "The acquisition of Canada this year, as far as the neighborhood of Quebec, will be a mere matter of marching; & will give us experience for the attack of Halifax the next, & the final expulsion of England from the American continent.” Thomas Jefferson to William Duane, 4 August 1812, a month after the U.S. declared war on Britain. Do you see any mention of the indignities being visited on American shipping by the Royal Navy? Any vessel from any country trying to run the blockade and trade with France was stopped by the RN, and if deserters were found on any of those ships, the RN retrieved them. The War Hawks wanted British North America and the reason Jefferson called it a "mere matter of marching" was because, in their usual ignorance of anything outside of the U.S., the War Hawks thought the Canadian colonists would flock to the American banner, eager to shed the oppression of crazy King George. Oops, nope. The U.S. declared war to conquer BNA while the Brits were busy with Napoleon. The U.S. failed in that objective. The U.S. lost. The Treaty of Ghent was diplomacy to save face.

Yes it was built with very dense timber

Building ships out of live oak timbers has that effect

Contemporary people did not think of ships as carrying armor. Constitution's hull was not thick enough to stop 18-pdr shot fired with a service charge anyhow. But it did make her very durable.

@@MinSredMash She had timber with a Specific Gravity 0.88 Janka Hardness of2680lb/ft English oak was a lot softer

@@jacktattis And American toilet paper was softer than Soviet toilet paper. That doesn't mean Soviet toilet paper was bulletproof.

1942, eh?

@@marschma It may have been 1943.

Constitution was Admiral Ingersoll's flagship.

Is there a source for this? I'd like to read more. I've also heard the frigate Constellation (the 1854 one currently in Baltimore's Inner Harbor) was also activated during WWII for some sort of picket duty or as a communications relay or something. God that would've sucked to lose Constitution to a U-boat torpedo.

@@RCAvhstape There is no source because it didn’t happen.

The masts were stronger than most - Eastern White Pine. Much, much stronger. The extremely tall/straight trees were the 'Envy' of the British Navy when she had to leave U.S. shores. The tallest Eastern White Pine were the tallest on earth and were marked with a Kings 'Arrow'. The Colonists revolted over this before Tea even. Cannonballs would bounce off her masts too or they would hold where others would fail (as in this case). White Pine made the early U.S. Navy what it was. And of course White Oak/Live Oak - which the hull was made of. "White Pine the Tree that Made A Nation" by Andrew Vietze is an excellent book.

The channel History Buffs has a video discussing the movie. But yeah, a video breaking down the novels themselves would be interesting.

I don't know about that. There are accounts of Nazi SS soldiers politely interacting with enemy commanders. I suspect chivalry between officers is, to at least some extent, and depending on the officers, just an enduring fact of war.

It’s hard to be chivalrous in an era where engagements happen well out of sight range of the enemy. The electronic eyes that govern these sort of battles tend to cleanse them of their human element.

@@AdmiralYeti8042 Interesting point. Thanks.