War of 1812 - Freshwater Edition 

A question partly inspired by your "sorry...wrong Sheridan." joke a while back, which I enjoyed: In the Babylon 5 spin-off, "Crusade"captain Matthew Gideon is described as having been involved in more battles during peacetime than most captains face in a major war. Were there any British ship commanders like this in the age of sail, men who had comparatively peaceful assignments, but seemed to frequently find themselves in the middle of naval incidents?

Do you think the Soviets would have been better off attempting to modernise the Gangut Class before building the Soviet Union class to gain/regain experience with the construction of larger ships, as before they ran into several issues building the Kirov Class, and still required foreign assistance. Also would you ever do a video about the Soviet submarine classes of WW2

Do you think there is a future for American style "super carriers" given the emerging environment of stealth and hypersonic missiles with no current counters. It doesn't seem to make sense to build a few of such expensive ships when they can be sunk by much cheaper units, assuming they are located of course. The only advantage I see is the longer range of an air launched missile, but this could surely be countered by the fact surface launched missile can be much larger. So what advantages do you see to a carrier over a few missile destroyers with helicopters for over the horizon radar?

You often mention the high possibility of an Anglo-American war without the naval treaties. What do you think would be the outcome of this war, assuming it was mainly a naval war to stick to the scope of the channel and because I assume it would be anyway. On a related note when exactly did the US navy overtake the Royal Navy, I know at the end of WW2 it was far larger but at the start of the war the Royal Navy seems to have been superior from what I can tell.

In a scenario where one time machine exists. And someone has the ability to transport large amounts of machinery and personell with it. If somebody had a fully crewed and supplied yamato, ignoring resupply and tiring of crew over time, how far back into history would you have to go for that one ship be enough to end everyone elses navy? Would it be a case of having to go back to the age of sail and just ramming everybody would do just fine let alone big guns and the floatplane, or is this not the case? And is there a more recent time prior to yamato actually existing where with the right crew and command staff that you could take the seas as your own with the right strategy?

I'm sure there was one, even if not documented.

@@LWolf12 Gary wished to remain anonymous.

Yeah and now you've revealed him. Doomed him to being known.

Oh yeah! Old One Gauge Gary! Often confused with old Petey One Pounder. Or maybe they're the same guy. Historians remain divided.

“This bolstered the American fleet by 80%, the previous rowboat only having 1/5 of a cannon”

True. Who knows what kind of late fee penalties they would have had to pay.

When the British burned D.C. an officer ordered troops not to burn the patent office.

@@thepezfeo Of course, we are not animals

Hell hath no fury like a librarian scorned!!

Fight amongst yourselves as much as you like, but for the love of God, don't piss off a librarian.

When you have to march uphill both ways through a foot of snow to get to war, the distances feel longer.

Perfect for table top wargaming

Yeah, Perry had the bigger task force and more experienced sailors. Even with the Brig Lawrence grounded that battle was fated to be very one-sided.

Sailor: I'm going back to port because the weather is getting nasty! Great Lakes: HAHAHA how well do you swim?

On Lake Erie, you would have about 15 minutes to get back to port when the wind picks up.

Replace could with have to. It doesn't matter what you build in the early 1800s if a proper storm blows up on the great lakes it will sink unless it is a gargantuan raft

@@SteamCrane And on Superior you have 5

@@rebelgaming1.5.14 With 3 of them sailing "uphill" on those giant "rollers" that form near every bay.

In conclusion the weather god kicked everyone's ass.

Lake Ontario can get very violent, very quickly. I have seen it.

True true

I live and sail on Georgian Bay. I agree.

It has already started kicking off in MI this year.

"Nah, I got the bigger ship, I stole your bigger ship!"

@@eaglefighter1295 Hah! I stole the ship you stole me after I stole it from you!

@@denovemportem -- Yeah, well I stole...you know where this is going.

- And my father he is a policeman and he will put you into prison !

"Moar dakka" - Yeo

tbf, even today its just wood, water, and a lot of free time on the great lakes

Those brits would have had a much easier time of enticing the Americans into joining the Allies if they stopped fighting each other over Canada, I agree.

Oliver Hazard Perry was ferrying troops across the pond 4 years before Pershing. The navy will go to ANY LENGTHS to one up the army, even resorting to time travel.

@@Arbiter099 you mean if the British just let America invade Canada who didn't want anything to do with America ? America's threat to invade Canada had to be protected by the British and now Canada is a free nation because both Canada and British kicked the invader's out . America and Canada only exists today as it is because of Britain so America should of helped the fight against those who would of invaded America if Britain fell to the German's etc in both war's . But first America made sure they earnt a shit load of money from nations fighting for world freedom then they decided to actually fight when both war's were year's old and almost over . Did you know that Britain still holds a lot of power in America behind the scene's ( banking , property , law's and much more ) but media won't say anything , look it up properly and you'll see what I mean . America is still very much under British influence .

@@Grimmwoldds And the Navy and Army will even, if need be, grudgingly combine forces to one up all other sister services, just to ensure the latter do not have any effect whatsovever on the minor nuisance to daily inter-service rivalry called "the enemy".

@@britishpatriot7386 just as britain is under a lot of American influence.

Indeed it would have been a great DLC but the North American theater is always small potatoes sadly

@@robert506007 There was a War of Independence DLC for Empire: Total War

Maybe Holdfast: Nations at War could add it. That game looks interesting,

I'm still sore that it wasn't.

Can we please have Total War Victoria please? Just have it take place from 1812 till 1879. I figure having start at 1812 with units from 1812 will make you want to advance in military tech since later rifles shoot further, revolvers shoot more and faster and artillery gets a huge upgrade in range, reloading and ammunition.

Gordon Lightfoot fan?

Indeed.

The other talented Gordy.

And the iron boats go as the Mariners all know...

Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours?

Well when we aren't fighting each other, Americans tend to be quite polite.

Americans used to have an extremely strong respect for literature and information, hence the bizarre action taken here.

I once returned I library book my Dad had borrowed off me one day...23 years later to the North Vancouver Library. Yes, very Canadian.

Without the late fees its a hollow gesture...

Hiznogood Chauncey was most likely a Puritan. 😄

That’s not a replica. It’s a literal ship of Theseus. It is a ship that has had the vast majority of it’s original parts replaced. But due to the fact that it wasn’t a reconstruction, and some original parts remain in non-critical structural areas, it cannot truly be called a replica. It’s not exactly original, yet it cannot be called a replica either. Thus, it is the perfect example of the ship of Theseus thought experiment/identity paradox.

*comment about the Edmund Fitzgerald*

the big lake the gitchegoone? kitchagoone?

The line about "They are built different for the comparable smoother lakes" followed by "4 capsized in a squall" made me laugh out loud. Storms on the great lakes are no joke.

More ships sank without a trace on the Great Lakes than in the Bermuda Triangle.

During winter storms, the weather service will warn that waves on Lake Erie will range from 25 to 35 feet. The buoys often don't record the big ones because most buoys are near the harbors, rather than the deep water offshore.

I'm just glad we got to keep Put-in-Bay. Where else are we going to drink our summers away!

We're lucky it didn't backfire horrendously. The state of Michigan and more could have been a Canadian Province today if things had gone differently on the lakes. This is one of the most ignored theaters of the war by historians yet it's one of the most vital in regards to the shape of our nation today.

@chris younts probably the best Readers' Digest summation of the period.

@@SeekerLancer probably a "gentleman's agreement" among NA historians so as not to stir it all up again.

It was a strange war. Conquering Canada was three times a failure by the US, if not more. However, the British also failed with three massive invasions of the US. The British lost three straight frigate actions in a row which was unheard of. They also Lost two lake flotillas wholesale, along with their respective bodies of water, and suffered the worst military defeat at New Orleans in their history up to that point. But on the flipside the British repelled three major invasions of Canada with a small forces, took our capital and burned it, and in a few little known feats, that are amazing and should be celebrated far more, they sailed they're warships straight up the Potomac River, occupied Alexandria, took a massive amount of materials and then got back down the river again under fire. And then they did the same in Philadelphia harbor and completely massacred the privateer fleet that had been working out of there. It was a war that ended status quo antebellum, but in my opinion set the stage for a great period Of American expansion where we agreed on dual occupation of the Oregon country(1818), the demilitarizetion of the great lake(1818), and a formalized border with Canada. I also believe the war convinced the Spanish we would fight for Florida and that it wasn't worth it, gaining us Florida(1819), and I believe, giving teeth to the Monroe doctrine that would follow 8 years later(1823). A very strange, very consequential, very obscure War.

Alos, the town Amherstburg sounds more like 'Ammersburg' than 'am-herst-burg' - though I'm not sure if it's only become so over time or if it was pronounced that way originally.

Right....the French spells somethings but pronounced it completely something else. Like Fuck the French is pronounced good French.

My greatest moment in my academic career was when I corrected my 11th grade history teachers’ pronunciation of “Michilimackinac” in front of the whole class then won the ensuing argument

And the French will tell you that you have no idea how to pronounce letters and words that they have been pronouncing that way since long before a U.S.A. was ever conceived. American pronunciation is just lazy and reflective of their own silly idea of American Exceptionalism. Y'all dig?

Indeed. The fort on the lower peninsula is pronounced with the last syllable as "ack". I think you have to live in Michigan to get this right.... haha. Most people don't understand how long the French held territory in Michigan.

*DO NOT* under any circumstances for any reason underestimate the weather of the lakes I do not live right on the lakes but I live about 3 hours away from Toronto the weather is chaotic to say the least. And from what I understand it's calmed down here compared to on the lakes

@@USS_ESSEX_CV-9 You are correct Huron, Michigan, and Superior are just deadly. Even to larger boats.

@@shanepatrick4534 I read an article once explaining why the Great Lakes are so deadly in a storm. Apparently, with storms in the ocean, the waves usually come from only one direction and they have a rhythm. So, as long as a ship can keep it's bow pointed into the wave, it can ride them out one after the other. In the Great Lakes, it's entirely different. When the wind pushes up the waves, they eventually hit the shore, bounce off and set up a wave traveling back in the opposite direction. Since there's shore all around you end up with waves traveling in all directions. Further, the waves can sync up, causing them to be much bigger than one would otherwise expect them to be. So, a ship can get hit with huge waves coming from any direction with no time to get the bow turned into the waves and no time to recover the ship in between the waves hitting. The guy who wrote the article suggested that's a very, very bad thing to happen to a ship. In a related note, I once saw an interview with Ted Turner, who was quite big in blue water yacht racing in his day. He had entered into a yacht race from Detroit to Chicago, sailing up Lake Huron, through the Strait of Mackinaw and down Lake Michigan. They got a storm warning while they were sailing up Lake Huron, but he said he blew it off because he felt that because he was a highly experience blue water sailor he didn't think there was anything any lake could throw at him that he couldn't easily handle. He went on to say that blowing off the storm warning was the worst mistake he ever made in his life, that the next four or five hours were spent in sheer terror and that he almost capsized his yacht multiple times before the storm finally passed. He ended by saying that it was the only time he'd actually feared for his life while sailing.

@@silentotto5099 That is super cool. Thank you for the information; he's right they act like a giant bathtub or pool.

@@shanepatrick4534 That was one of the comparisons the author of the article I mentioned actually used... "Sloshing around like a bathtub".

@@jonmce1 But we only borrowed it.

@@jonmce1 It's quite likely we forgot we had it. Except for the Battle of New Orleans we don't remember the Unpleasantness of 1812 real good (for some pretty obvious reasons).

If only Brock or Prevost had had the smarts to form and deploy an elite unit of crack librarians, the you-alls today would be swearing allegiance to Tim Horton and John Molson. Alas, it was not to be. But for some strange reason the "Mackinac" pattern for clothing (originally the pattern of the Mackinac blanket, issued to the Michigan Fencibles Regiment of the Crown forces during the 1812-15 war, their regimental tunics being red with black facings) is always going in and out of style. Stranger still is that for some idiotic reason it's marketed in Canada as the "Buffalo" pattern. Oh, and the Mississippi Volunteers Regiment was a Canadian militia unit raised on Mackinac in the spring of 1814 to capture Ft. Shelby (now Prairie du Chien WI). They were successful in doing so, repelling a counter-attack led by Gen. Zackary Taylor, who would go on to become the 12th President. This victory gave the Crown control of the upper Mississippi, so had Packenham defeated Jackson... One more fun fact. The Upper Canadian Regiment was a unit of the US army. Some of its members were tried and convicted for treason at what is now Ancaster, Ontario, between Niagara Falls and Toronto. If I recall correctly, one was sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered, marking the last time such a sentence was carried out in Canada.

Grew up on the shores of Lake Erie. Totally a part of my life. Completely.

I tremble to consider being captured by a unit of highly organized librarians and forced to re-shelve books at pencil point...

Fuck yeah, man- I am feeling good *for* you! What a grand feeling lol

I hate moving more than anything.

AHAHAHAHAHA

They were transporting troops from the airfield at Valley Forge ;)

Battle of Midway lake edition

I know the Hamilton has been found what about the Scourge?

Tecumseh grew up just south of my home, Columbus, Ohio. Chillicothe. Although an enemy, he is considered a great hero and his story is (or was in the 1960's) taught to school children in Ohio as an example to be admired.

"There was a Duke of York, he had ten thousand men..." The hill in that rhyme is the Niagara Escarpment here in Hamilton. Having climbed up and down that hill a few times, I think it's remarkable the Duke wasn't strung up by his own men before the Americans ever arrived for battle.

I used to do tours at Malden.....and loved the old Dalhousie pub next door.

I am in such the unique situation!!! Born in Buffalo, New York. Spent many a day at Niagara Gorge. And, I just married a Canadian February 2018- I type to you now from British Columbia, awaiting my permanent residency! So it's a tough call, 'eh?'

@@battlements7649 You did not apologize once, so you can't be Canadian yet.

@@battlements7649 Take off, ya hozer. Go for a rip out and have a dart old son. Those are rookie Canadianism numbers. Punch up those numbers m'boy! Also welcome to the coolest part of Canada. And the DANKEST.

@@RoKKr023i Well done Sir! Err F**kin Ay Buddy! ...also in BC.

Makes me cream

Umm.. Tolstoy published War and Peace in 1869, that would have been one hell of a lost Marine.

That US marine must have the Super Duper Mega Premium Early Edition of War and Peace....

US Marines read? 😁 My uncle would be very disappointed if he ever read this comment.

York Librarian: "In that case you owe $10 in late fees."

@@lucidnonsense942 And, ironically in this case, the main "War" in the tittle is the French invasion of Russia in 1812. Or, as the Russians call it, the Patriotic War of 1812. Though it does talk about the entire Napoleonic era as it relates to Russia to a degree.

Got to go there a few times, it's really neat

Do the guides there now emphasize: " 'PUT. IN.' BAY... 'PUT. IN.' Not like that guy."

Pierre Berton wrote a very good two volume account of the war. His conclusion was that the losers of that war were the natives.

Thanks for the info Jatzi I just bought the kindle version from Amazon ,can't wait to start reading it

@@barelyasurvivor1257 Awesome! Gave me a new perspective on the period. We tend to kinda idealize it but the reality is that the politics of the time were not great. Not by a long shot. Also we sucked at warfare lol

I have read a number of books on the War of 1812 and the one that I think most profoundly influenced my views was Alan Taylor's "The Civil War of 1812: American Citizens, British Subjects, Irish Rebels, & Indian Allies". Don't let the title fool you this is a serious historical look at the War of 1812 which I actually think does a better job of really conveying what was actually going on in this war then almost every other book I have read on the topic. Don't get me wrong I love me some Pierre Berton but the impression you get after reading him is that the war of 1812 was a lot like the campaigns of Napoleon except on a smaller scale and in North America but that really misses out on the fact that actually both sides where fighting this war in an area that was profoundly under developed for a military campaign. The British fed their army by paying Americans to drive huge herds of cattle across the border because they could not really move enough supplies from the ports. Both sides engaged in nasty village and town burning campaigns and the British followed their Indian Allies deep into the American Western frontier burning every settlement they could find and killing any settlers they could lay their hands on (I will note that the Americans had been up to much the same when they invaded native territory). The Americans where horribly hampered by the fact that on their side the war was profoundly political with one of the political parties (the one Madison was not the leader of) actively sabotaging the war effort because it was politically bad for Madison whenever his armies where defeated. Basically a great book in terms of understanding what was going on during the war.

All that said maybe read this one after you read the Pierre Berton as it really does not focus on the general course of the war and practically ignores many of the battles.

StarCraft was my opiate during the late 1990's and early 2000's!

@@battlements7649 Starcraft - the original - was the first PC game i've seen, and i was fascinated by the very idea of a real-time strategy you control with a mouse.

Also technically a replica since the original was all but destroyed when constructing it but still cool.

Christopher Blair They used a fair bit of the old ship in the reconstruction. But yes, more a replica/reconstruction then continuously keeping it afloat.

If the keel has been replaced, it's a replica.

David Budka Canadian schools go super in depth on it, and British schools might mention that “we also fought the Americans for a while”

Cause you guys lost hence why American schools wont teach you about it

@@tylerkapteyn5830 you mean because our schools won't even give us ANY in depth information about ANYTHING Until you get to college.

@@tylerkapteyn5830 We don't teach much about the War of 1812 because it was virtually irrelavent: no major territory changes, no earth-shaking treaties, and no wider geo-politcial implications. Britian couldn't risk pressing the US, because it was much more concerned about what Russia was starting to do, and the implications that held for India and the incredibly rich eastern markets. The US couldn't press Britian, because it needed Britain's money and didn't want to face the British Navy; and certainly not when it had plenty of room to grow westward. Both having nothing to gain and much to lose, neither was particularly interested in pressing issues.

@@tylerkapteyn5830 that’s a pretty stupid viewpoint considering Vietnam holds more curriculum weight and time than world war 2, a war we won Also we never learn about the Barbary wars, wars we won, the war for Florida (yeah it exists), Operation Just Cause, etc etc etc What a stupid “muh america indoctrination!”

www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/9104 "The Naval war of 1812" by Theodore Roosevelt. You may have heard of him... The book is outstanding, and free over at Project Gutenberg. You may be surprised to learn that the US more than held its own at sea during the war. As for land battles, we performed very well when it really mattered. Baltimore, Plattsburgh, and New Orleans were critical American victories, curiously all of which were fought while the peace negotiations were underway in Ghent. Or not too surprising, since the plan in Britain was that they would sign "Ghent Lite", but would refuse to ratify the new treaty once Baltimore and New Orleans fell. Britain would then use these victories as leverage to demand buffer zones, free passage on the Mississippi, and fishing rights. Things didn't work out that way. Instead the treaty returned each side to more or less the pre-war status quo. America got its land back, and returned what it took from *British* Canada. And were no longer pestered by British seizures of ships and men. Britain got, umm, something. I'm not sure what. An education I suppose. And Canadians got an extra 115 years or so to work on their own independence. :) However, with the fall of Napoleon, Britain no longer needed American sailors, nor did they have any remaining objections to the US trading with France (owing in large part to Britain setting up the new government in France with their own people). After the fall of Napoleon, opinions were mixed in Britain with the general population wanting to get serious with the US and finish things properly this time, while businessmen were eager to get back to trading with the US. And while it is one thing to impress American sailors to fight against France for Britain, it was a different matter entirely getting them to fight against fellow Americans. Impressed Americans were generally allowed to remain below decks during battles with American ships. Something about disgruntled employees and easy access to firearms I suppose. So in the end, the US got what it went to war over anyway. Call it a win or not, your choice. But I'll take that any day. As an aside, there were foreigners fighting for the British at the battle of Trafalgar making up about 10% of the sailors that fought in the battle. This includes 361 American born sailors. But were they there voluntarily? History says otherwise.

Try Brennan's in Grand River for the best perch.

Plus books that have useful information on various things like carpentry and farming and the like. 😺

200 years ago, books were a luxury. It would be comparable to robbing an apple store, nowadays.

@@ManScoutsofAmerica more like Lambo shop

Which part? I grew up in Royal Oak and live in Rochester.

I miss that game. Had so much potential. But it's just too much of a grind and still feels like a tech demo all these years later.

@@DeadBaron yeah the grind is unbearable.I spent 108 hours on it last two weeks, didn't achieve much during that time

I see what you did there

Lol watching this just after I just bought my lvl 45 pack in Madden

Tecumseh was given more honour by Americans than Canadians

Well he was a very decent fellow, even to his American captives

I have always thought it strange that Jefferson thought capturing Canada would be easy or doable. Canada was home to many former colonists who sided with the King. Surely Jefferson knew this.

@@scottgoodman8993 He was prone to flights of fancy

@@scottgoodman8993 He was an American politician...

Jefferson was against naval expansion but at least wanted to preserve the navy we already had and tried to build drydocks but congress wouldn't allow him and the US would get its first drydocks until the 1830's. As anti-military as Jefferson was, the Democratic-Republican party at large was even more-so.

@@scottgoodman8993 Jefferson was idealistic and thought surely by now Canada has seen that American-style democracy was the future and that North America should unite and be free of European drama. He was wrong.

Thank you for that TECUMSEH proper pronunciation !!!!

Ti-KUM-say

no but it shows that at least one american can spell

Michilimackinac, count on the British to butcher it beyond recognition eating up as many consonnes as possible.

Why is there a c

@@jrico6791 the French translated it from a native word, so it uses the French spelling, Mackinac. Mackinaw is the English spelling but the only place it stuck was for Mackinaw City, everything else is Mackinac, (the island, Straits, bridge)

@@jrico6791 Why is Worcester pronounced Wooster? Probably some Anglo Saxon something or other.

@@ejd53 lol how did you know I live near Worcester. I think with the New England towns you had British people saying them in their peculiar ways for hundreds of years and then you had Americans who continued the tradition of smooshing syllables together for hundreds of years. It's different than Mackinac because it's hard to know the French derivation when it looks Indian.

Would not change much, Just look at London.....

@@knutdergroe9757 Yeah but at least it won't be our problem anymore.

The US stuffed it up, the US can keep the problem.

Neither side truly won, and even if the British did, they certainly wouldn’t want Detroit. Nobody wants Detroit. Even the people living in Detroit don’t want Detroit.

@@megalodon7916 Haha, I work in Detroit and can confirm that it's a total dump lol

What happened to to the vessels after the War of 1812 and what happened to their commanders didn't know what we're doing

I’ve heard a similar tale concerning a certain HMS Hussar but near the Hellgate bridge in New York City

lake erie is shallow and can be really be a problem .thus i know lol

@@jakelang4387 There's over 2000 ships and boats on its bottom to attest to that!

@@SeekerLancer You don't have to get on the water to notice, there's 25cm of frozen Great Lake outside that fell on my house yesterday.

Thus Michigan's huge number of lighthouses.

On any of the lakes in a worst case scenario you can have approximately 15-20 minutes to get into port and if you do not then there is a good chance you're going down. Do not underestimate the lakes at all for any reason

You're joking right? As soon as we run out of fresh water, the US is rolling right over Canada.

Because Michigan that's why 😂 we in the mit do as we please

French settlers talking to Native locals. 40% of the state is named after badly translated Native words. 40% of the state is named after badly pronounced French words. 20% is random.

AJMBLAZER yeah that's definitely right. My hometown has been named after two different railroad attorneys neither of whom ever stepped foot in town 😂 definitely part of the 20%

The Island is actually a great historic site. You should see it if you get a chance.

John White it's definitely worth the visit and while there it's easy enough to go see it's predecessor in the form of fort michilimackinac both are pretty cool historic landmarks

There's also another Perry monument at Presque Isle's Misery Bay where the American ships were sunk for preservation.