We'll be live right around the time you finish this, so come on over if you have any questions ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-36zoOnQk6w4.html
The Order of the Green Hand unrelated question but the war between the dragon lords and rhyonar paints the rhynor as victims when a guy pretty much took 250 men to their deaths. I guess what I’m asking is their a secret alliance between the andals and dornish to fight the targs and discredit their people’s achievements? And is Doran and the citadel working together because I doubt a girl could sneak into their organization without them knowing I don’t think sallrra is the first girl to try to be a maestar
After watching your videos and hearing your theories, I always come away hoping GRRM is as great of a writer and story weaver as you give him credit for! It’s a great series (of books) but I wonder if he can tie it all up just right. I hope so.
To further support this fantastic theory. When Stannis’s shadow kills Renly. Stannis is dreaming exactly what happened, so his mind has is conscious of what the shadow is doing.
What's interesting is that before the show killed and resurrected Jon, this was the most popular opinion about Jon's situation. People would even get angry if people mentioned Jon being dead in passing and jump all over them.
I don't know, I seem to remember him being resurrected being the most popular theory. Melisandre was there in Castle Black after all while we know her powers are stronger than ever near the Wall and Thoros could Revive Beric in the Riverlands 6 times
Melisandre using shadowbinder magic on Tormund wasn't an angle I'd considered before. I appreciate the points made about how through using the shadow, Jon and Tormund could be as "one mind." This REALLY reminds me of similar magic that Arya encounters when dealing with the faceless men. When Arya puts on the "glamour" face of the Ugly Girl and she could feel and experience the girls pain and sorrow from when her father would beat her before she came to the House of Black and White. An interesting parallel I wanted to bring up. Love the Theory!
Jon Snow is the 50cent of Westeros! Side note; Maybe Ghost and the Raven were agitated bc Jon had already been magiked. Perhaps they noticed this ‘Jon’ wasn’t their Jon. No evidence. Just a passing thought I had during this video.
I AM IN AWE! You’ve just reawakened my LOVE for ASOIAF and I’m on my way to get the books to start rereading as I type this! I feel like this is the way! We are deciphering TWOW! ALSO SO GLAD MOM AND DAD ARE BACK TOGETHER FOR THE CHANNEL! You have to share custody of us green hand children! I admire your civility and respect for the community you guys created. Now the family is complete again and 2019 didn’t ruin everything after all!
“I think fans are going to argue about it until the next book comes out.” Or eternity... whichever comes first. 😂 Glad The Wolf’s Den is going strong and keeping me interested in the books. The show almost killed it for me
@@panchgavyatherapist haha, he should be so lucky. I had to do a quick search and evidently there are a bunch of articles about him saying the Wuhan Wobbles have led him to focus more on the final book. Fingers crossed!
Bran survived the fall in part to his connection to summer. He would get worse if they closed the window. The glamour thing could be true... but i think even if it is Jon, the warg connection seems to keep Starks alive when they should die.
not only starks. the prologue to ADWD is about skin changer who dies and kind of transfer his mind to one of his animals. GRRM always use his prologues to tell an important plot of that book. And early in the chapter, jon went to inspect the ice cells, and is said to us that they can store dead watchmans there. I think Jon is going to warg on ghost, his body will be stored in the ice cells and he’s going to be brought back to life
I'm gonna re-read Bran's chapters where he skinchanges Hodor. See how it was portrayed within the story. I believe it would be similar to shadow binding however, instead of being in control, yor shadow is a passenger. Very good video. I think since GRRM is the one that said to question his death and your evidence is compelling, I am definitely going to read these parts again with your theory in mind. Thank you!
You guys never fail to amaze me. I like, don't watch shows anymore. I just listen to your channel, lol. I swear most of the ASOIAF youtubers are more concerned with proving their theories right than figuring out what's actually going on. While other youtubers definitely have other things to offer, when it comes to theorizing, I find you guys and Preston to be the most thorough and rational.
@@Richard_Nickerson Preston Jacobs? Didn't even pick up on that till one of his "Daggers for Jon" videos. To be honest though, as much as I love the pick-up there, I don't like the idea. Robb should be dead. It flows too nicely that the only child Cat thought was alive (until the RW) was the only one who *actually* died
@@made-line7627 hi! Even if Robbs soul moved into greywind he would still be dead as the wolf was murdwred too saddly thats really break my heart a 3rd time when reading the Orell chapter
Pretty much that exact thing has already been done in another book series I know for a fact George has read (as there's a blurb from him in the front of one of them). I have too much faith in George to believe he'll just straight rip off an author he likes.
It's interesting how Melissandre mentions a bag of fingerbones whilst telling Jon about how the glamor works, after Davos having lost his own bag of fingerbones chapters before.
To be fair, in the novels there's an extra factor in play that might not make Jon a mere fire wight: he's a warg, and on death wargs scoot off to an additional life. If Melly's magic brings Jon back as a wight, his soul will already be safely ensconced in Ghost. I suppose then he might be warging his old body back from whatever inhabits it in his wake. Assuming he does, indeed, bodily die.
If Brandon still becomes the king 👑 then this book series died with season 8 of the show.....with thunderous subverted expectations...John deserves better
@@serdnazerreitug I think *Jon* at least deserves to have his three-letter-long name spelled correctly. Especially in the comment section of a video which has his name, spelled correctly, in the title.
WOW! Just WOW! You guys are brilliant! You answer all the questions my mind asked while reading the books yet no one else seemed to think they were worth asking. I REALLY hope when Winds come out you both get the massive credit you deserve. I think you two are the ones GRRM was talking about who had figured out the ending and much much more.
Before a Storm of Swords, Death was very much a forgone conclusion for a lot of characters. Then we Stoneheart in a Storm of Swords and Aegon in a Dance of Dragons. Now the concept of Death is so loose, characters who we at one time we’re told are dead, like Ser Arthur Dayne, now have theories on if they are still alive, when in a Clash of Kings, we never would’ve thought characters could be revived or in hiding. Plot aside, it’s hard to imagine Jon being dead when now, Idek what dead is supposed to mean in ASOIAF. He could be revived by Melisandre, he could warg out of his body, or maybe he could just be dead. That’s what makes these books so interesting. You don’t really know what can happen to characters
I just watched Quinn's prediction of Jon's future, and they raised an interesting point that actually lends towards your theory, which I lean towards anyway. They mentioned Jon having similarities with the god Mithras and the White Bull he had to sacrifice. Considering that Tormund is porbably Gerald Hightower, as you guys have pointed out, this is kinda spot on with your theory so far.
I think Jon is going to warg into Ghost and then back into his human body..... and in doing so he'll be taking some of the direword spirit back with him too.
Here's a thought. After the 2 hour talk Jon says "with me" to his guards at the door when he leaves. However, if memory serves for the rest of ADWD, Jon always refuses his guards offer of an escort around the castle. Perhaps a part of Tormund trying to act how he thinks a lord commander should act instead of acting how Jon would?Can't say I'm fully on board just yet but (right or wrong) this is a fantastic theory!
This is fascinating. In Deep Geek has a theory just as compelling that Jon warged into Ghost at the time of his stabbing. You both give such good evidence to back up your respective theories that now I have to go back and reread the book...
Speaking of berric. I actually liked him in the show same with the brotherhood as they kept thier honor until the end while stone heart went from avenge to revenge to killer so fast. Both killed in brutal ways but different awakening
this is by far my favorite theory I have heard. It makes alot of sense. And it makes sense that we finally get Melisandre pov prior where she spells everything out about glamors and shows Jon her ability to perform this magic that has fooled everyone in the watch even himself. And then he specifically thinks about glamors and that she asks for him to send for her once he has his answers. This could also be used to pretend to bring him back and allow him to leave the nights watch and not be scene as an oath breaker which was his fear in taking stanis offer to begin with. He thought Nobody in the north would accept him if he deserted the watch and that it would not help stanis and it would also stain his honor. But having a valid way to claim the north while having fulfilled his oath to the watch would be great next step for them to take. They may have used this as a way to smoke out those daggers in the dark as well. I am going to have to go back and re read with your theory in mind to see how this effects my thoughts on other potential situations
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 I read the title and thought the idea of Jon being alive was so dumb there was no way you could make a reasonable argument... Video proved me very wrong 😂 Well done...
Also, Mel finds her magic more powerful at the wall (glass-candles-burning-kind-of-phenomenon) which means that she's able to produce more sophisticated and better glamour or shadow of Jon than of Stannis when killing Renly.
This is a very compelling argument and I’m surprised it doesn’t have more traction. I’ve been watching WOW theories for years now but haven’t heard this one. Consider me intrigued. And subscribed.
Sup Lord and Lady Greenhand. I’m going home early from work today to re-read this chapter. There is so much hidden in clear sight. George has ‘glammered’ us all it seems.
You are making very good points. It does seem very strange that Jon would suddenly want horns to be blown all the time. That said, I hope this isn't true. I would be very sad if Tormund is dead.
Whew!! Finally a video from the Order, and it's good to hear Dave's voice. Fantastic video, even though I need a rewatch to fully comprehend the complexity of this video. I've got a few questions though. How does this video ties in to your theory that Bowen Marsh wrote the Pink Letter? What happens regarding the ranging and going South, now that Jon's plans have fallen apart?
Based on some of your other theories, does this mean you think Gerold Hightower died for Jon Snow, would be an interesting fit if you're correct that Halfhand = Oswell Whent also died to protect Jon.
I really hope we don't see something similar to what Robin Hobb did in the Farseer Trilogy. And I know George has read that series because there's a quote in one of them from him saying "Robin Hobb's books are diamonds in a sea of zircons."
They don't have me yet. I'll put this one down as plausible but not likely. It certainly does make sense, but... Joe the Magician (or was it In Deep Geek) did a brilliant piece on the advantages of Jon being undead for the Battle of Ice (not needing to eat, sleep, stay warm). And the bitter in Jon's bittersweet ending would include not being able to do things like have kids. I just want to know what's up with the fingerbones...
Saying "It doesn't seem likely that Jon might survive [an probably mortal wound]" would be more convincing if it hadn't happened to Brienne in Dance twice (by Biter and Lady Stoneheart).
Hmmm, my thought process was similar in that Mel is the key but I didn't think it was as much in the Glamor way. Which is very very good! My thought was it was that Jon would just be healed by Mel because if one can raise the dead, a man who is nearly dead but still kicking shouldn't be an issue.
You guys are the best! Way better theory than un-Jon❤️ Alternative theory to psychic sword though... the quote about Melisandre's glamours "the wearers essence does not change, only his seeming" maybe alt-Jon's bumbling for Longclaw was Torumund's hand or sword not being quite where he sees them, especially if he's still getting used to so freshly being in a new form, even more so if Jon and Toramund are of very different physical types. Also the "only the cold" could be his awareness leaving Torumund and returning to his unharmed body which is beyond the wall which means he feel nothing but the cold of his own body no more pain or additional input from Castle Black
I can't believe I've never considered this possibility or something similar, it seems so obvious now. I remember always wondering why Jon wasn't more eager to talk to Mel especially after getting the pink letter or that she didn't try to make herself available for that whole 2 hours.
I don’t know why but I like the idea that Stoneheart gives her not life/ life for Jon to come back, won’t happen bc it’s hella cheesy but if it did it would be interesting how GRRM would do it oh and she’s in the neck and we’re not into teleporting so definitely won’t happen
From time to time i just come back to listen to these theories.... And they are just mind blowing. Amazing amazing and amazing. I really hope the turn out to be true
Jon's death only means end of his watch and can pursue his king-in-the-north plot. That is why everyone is happy for his death and maybe resurrection and becoming the Targaryan king :). But, Jon's place is at the Wall to unify people for the wars to come. The Wall without Jon would fall apart. I like your wars to come theory and Mance being Arthur Dayne. It makes much more sense and creates better story than Jon being Raegar and Lyanna's son. Besides, we had great characters before books begin. Why don't we use some of them.
We haven't seen Jon learn much about his warging abilities so far... but if Bran can inhabit Hodor... why couldn't Jon inhabit Tormund. I mean... it doesn't seem like he'd be able to yet or that he would even think about it... but if he did, in fact, send for Melisandre... who knows what they practiced for the other hour and forty five minutes... or what she might have been able to teach him or pull off. How does the warging work in combination with shadow binding? It's a good theory... I can't wait till the next book comes out! Driving myself crazy, I think.
Or maybe it was Satin Flowers who glamoured by Mel into a fake Jon. In the book when the incidence happened Satin was no where to find, and we all know that Satin somehow looks like Jon in some cases. It'll be more easier for Mel to glamoured Satin as Jon and make Jon and Tormont free hands to go on their tasks. Also Satin was Jon's steward, why he suddenly disappeared and shouldn't he be near Jon at any possible vacancy. Satin was a crow so he would be a better option to glamoured as Jon.
amazing video. this changes everything. can't believe the books beeen out 9 years & we're just catching this out now! also want to mention, since with the mutineers stabbing "Jon" , 3 out of 4 stabs were pretty off-target if ur trying to kill someone. making me think they're seeing Jon but it's actually Tormund's size & proportions that they're stabbing at.
Another little thing that may support this theory is that quite literally "Tormunds face was down...in the Snow "..his face was literally hidden, glamoured in Jon..The Snow..? Love Qot 🌹
Once again Order of the Green Hand has cracked the code: Mance/Arthur Dayne, no combat at Tower of Joy, Benjen/Ned refuse to talk to each other at Winterfel.
Little Wolf Lyanna It’s almost painful! I’m the one that kept stumbling over his complaints that GRRM ALWAYS complains that Gandalf was resurrected also! 🤣
Shannon T I know! I’ve heard that interview too a bunch of times. Went right over my head... I guess that’s what we have Dave & Mary Ellen for... the eagle eyes they have to find this stuff we miss. 😊😊
I love these type of your videos, I never thought of it like this. I always believed Jon didnt die but i was thinking that Jon warged into Ghost to shield his mind from the pain while his body healed from some type of potion from Val or magic from Mel.
One other little tidbit, when Summer is hit by an arrow Bran feels the pain and immediately leaves Summer... and then a few times when he would reach out, he had to pull back as if he had tried to touch a hot kettle. So Jon, with a higher threshold for pain, especially considering the burning of his hand and the beatings he'd taken in the yard, managed to stay his consciousness through the 2nd stabbing but had to immediately leave after the 3rd... so he didn't feel the 4th. I'm thinking his warging/skinchanging ability came into play a bit here.
People have been stabbed over 20-30 times and have survived (ex: the slender man girls case). And of course getting stabbed/sliced would have you bleeding. There have been times where people have died for dozens of minutes and come back to life. It can be the same for Jon. So he has a high chance of surviving this encounter.
A lot of this seems to depend on the assumption that Jon couldn’t know about the 4th stab wound without feeling it, but I don’t think that is true. 1 - lying face down in the snow, he would feel pressure pushing him down from the sword, even if not feeling the wound itself 2 - the people were saying “For the watch” and then stabbing him. So he would hear “For the watch” and know what it meant.
"In the darkest hole, you'd be well advised Not to plan my funeral 'fore the body dies, yeah Come the morning light, it's a see through show What you may have heard and what you think you know, yeah"- Alice In Chains "Grind"
Good to see another video from our Order ! And I did find it strange that Jon knew he was stabbed a fourth time, even though he didn’t feel it, on top of having fell facedown on the ground.
I really love these sort of videos in the long wait for the next book. I can't say it often enough... However I also have to admit that during the entier video I was sort of glancing to the 'Doran's Dagger' video RU-vid already recommended for me next. So excuse me, I gotta go watch that now
I never noticed how much this scene echoes the letter Stannis sent out to the realm claiming his Kingship. Davos couldn’t read the letter like Tormund and he even flexes his fingers if I recall.
Great video, great supporting evidence, I prefer the idea of some sort of Jon ghost soul mixing theory after some sort of resurrection but I really enjoyed the videos and ideas as well as you both working together. Keep the dream team going! Great content, great work, looking fwd to seeing what George decides to go with moving. Looking fwd to any and all future videos keep it up !
This is genius! You think your other theory of Mance and other head figures of the Wildlings being Rhaegar's Kingsguards could apply to this? If Tormund is a former Kingsguard then he could have spent a huge part of the 2 hours revealing it to Jon and letting Jon take it all in. Hence setting up Tormund sacrificing himself for Jon.
I said a while back that Jon might not have died in his last dance chapter. Somewhere on RU-vid, probably in one your video’s comment sections is my statement. The whole Jon “warging his own dead body” theory is cool, but I like the simplicity of Jon having survived. I will say what you offer is a cool twist.
Man, this has been bothering me as well. In the books not even Jons parentage is officially known and they go and kill him? It just doesn't make any sense. The whole chapter has the same foreboding as the Jojen Paste chapter but instead - with nobody being the person they claim to be. I like this, I really hope this turns out to be true!
Loved this video! You sold me. I was going to say tho, if it was tormund that got stabbed, wouldn’t we see his character come out in his language? But I forgot, you guys sold me on Tormund not really being tormund years ago. His pirate talk is just an act. So you possibly have an experienced actor playing the part of jon here. Great video!
Very interesting theory. Personally, I lean towards his warging into ghost. But this is certainly the only other plausible explanation I've ever heard. It very well could be this.
Glamouring Torment to look like John, makes sense. John can't die yet, he hasn't learned what he doesn't know. I was always wondering, where the hell was Ghost. John gets attacked, stabbed, and nothing form ghost? Not a lament for his death, no rage his friend died, not even a growl? Does Not Compute. Now Torment getting stabbed, Ghost has no interest in that.
I was wondering the same! That got me to being open to other possibilities, i remember anytime i read it or listened to the audiobook it was weird that ghost did not react. Especially with all the effort George puts into describing how Grey Wind behaved when Robb was in danger
I guess they didn't think it was important, maybe? I think it's pretty powerful that that is what his last word is. The only thing I can definitively say is that GRRM is the boss. Either of these two theories could be the outcome here, and that is a huge part of why his storytelling and this series are just so, so damn fine.
@@viniciusquintinocosta4105 1. Bran thrived with Summer's presence despite being in a coma and near death. 2. Robb's last words were Grey Wind, right? And then Grey Wind became so much more aggressive, but then they killed Grey Wind. And they sewed Grey Wind's head onto Robb's decapitated body just to really drive the point home. 3. Then there's Orell and his eagle. 4. Then there's Varymyr Sixskins and his very detailed death. 5. And then Jon's last word is Ghost. GRRM absolutely set up Jon's survival through his warging into Ghost. If he goes any other way, then he'd better explain it well, because he'd be subverting himself.
