You know the true greatness of a character who was only in 9 episodes of Season 1 when they still mention him in the last few lines of dialogue of Season 8 "Ned Starks daughter will speak for them, she's the best they could hope for"
I theorize that it’s purely political, at least when it comes to dealing with any one other than the Starks. Ned was loved by many, but respected by all. As good as they were to many, Robb is the king who lost the North. Catelyn was the woman who freed the king slayer. We love them, their family and close ally’s loved them, but to many that’s all they remembered about the Starks.
The way you feel about Dany is exactly the same with mine. First watch I felt everything went down hill too soon and I didn't really buy it, but think back and re-watching it via reactor channels, I can see that aside from losing Missandei and another dragon so suddenly in front of her, she has always chosen the violence action since the beginning, but her consultants like Jorah, Ser Baristan and Tyrion stopped her and gave other choices, so her action here totally make sense. Doesn't make me hate her though, she's a very complex character for me
exactly people just turn around and HATE her but praise other killers. I love Dany If someone killed my children, my sister, after I lost everything to fight for the North and then I get sassy ass Sansa and Arya Id burn down Kings landing too 😂
she always chose violence? when? it was her idea to free the slaves of Astapor. it was her decision to take Yunkai, even tho ser Jorah advised her otherwise. ser barristan and Jorah were rushing Dany to sail to Westeros and take king's landing, she refused to let Meereen and chose to stay and help the people. Dany is complex, she can be ruthless at times (with slave masters, traitors and rapists, as she should), but she didn't always choose violence. the trope of Dany going mad is stupid and not what GRRM planned for her character
@@Nihilanth For example, in Meereen she wanted to execute son of the Harpy without a trial until ser Barristan advised her otherwise. She wanted to burn all the masters but Tyrion also convince her otherwise. When the new about house Tyrell and Greyjoy fall she also wanted to take her dragon to burn her enemy even innocent lives could be at risk until Jon said that she will be no different than others before her. IMO, she tends to choose violence first, but mostly listen is her consultants advised her sth else.
@@penguincgm489 These situations you described became one of her disadvantages. If she had burned the masters Meereen wouldn't have been attacked to begin with in Season 6, which also resulted in civilian deaths. If she attacked Kings Landing after House Tyrell, Greyjoy and Martell fell, the war would have been over and the battle would be without any greater casualties. Dany wouldn't have been mad because Missandei and Jorah would still be alive, same thing goes for Viserion and Rhaegal because until that point, Quburn did not came up with the Scorpions. Dany would have breached the gates, like she did in Season 8, and the people would have ringed the bells. The difference is there wouldn't be a total destruction of Kings Landing. If she'd taken the throne in Season 7 she would have been prepared to sum up all forces and defend the north combined with all of her 3 dragons and all great houses. Dragging out the sack of Kings Landing became her own doom because she lost beloved ones and a big chunk of her army resulting in a weak mental state. Also if she had actually freed Kings Landing and Westeros in general of Cerseis grip the people and the lords of Westeros could have actually liked her which also turned out otherwise for her in the show. Jorah, Missandei, hell even Barristan were all good advisors to her. Of course sometimes their advice was not that good but taking Tyrion as her hand was the beginning of the end.
Yes please read the books. Even though they're not finished, and probably will never be at this point, but they're amazing. You will understand why this series was such a huge hit. Once you finish each book, please give us an update.
Also, I interpret it as Jon is now free with the wildlings. Sending him to the Night’s Watch as punishment was a way to make peace, but they really know they were simply sending Jon away from Westeros to be free. The king beyond the wall, in a way.
I think it's great how Ned stark harshly judged Jaime for killing his king and now Jon did pretty much the same thing for the same reason ! it's crazy how we all despised Jaime in season 1 for the entire Kingslayer thing but after 8 seasons of learning we saw it happen again and we cheered for it !
I feel like you are too heavy on Greyworm. He was a slave all his life following commands without questioning them. Then Dany freed them and he found love. The moment Missandei dies, he goes back to his old self, where he just follows his Queen's commands. He was never really "i am a good guy, i show compassion and emphaty" etc. People are mostly unsatisfied with the following: > 8 seasons of whitewalker build-up, resolved in 1 episode with almost no casualties (no big character deaths, we see allmost all dothraki dying, next we learn its only %50 etc) > Bran doing absolutely nothing with whittewalkers, and he becomes king in last episode because he has "best story". He even implies that this was part of his plan by saying "why do you think i came all this way" and "you were exactly in the spot you were meant to be". So did he foresee this outcome but didnt tell anyone because he wanted to be king? Very confusing overall. > All the Azor-Ahai prophecies meaning nothing. > Jon's true identity serving no role > Extreme lack of build-up to Mad Queen. She becomes Mad Queen the moment the city surrenders?? If you are so mad at Cercei just go there and burn the castle. > Jamie's story arc. His entire character developement was for nothing, and he even said "i did not care that much about people in King's Landing"??? > Euron Greyjoy being an absolute joke compared to his book counter-part, where he is insanely scary and powerful. > Tyrion's character getting less and less clever lines and more of dick jokes. > Rhegal randomly dying to "subvert expectations" with "Dany kinda forgot"
Completely agree with all those points! its easy for fans to gloss over all these or ignore them which is cool.. (I personally choose to ignore them for my enjoyment of the series).. but it definitely does take away the fact that literally all your points are valid! I wish things were different but this is the hand we got dealt
@fazediamond5671 Both of john and Tyrion would be would be dead. Within minutes . The North will be an independent nation , But the Ironborn wouldn't want that or the other 5 Kingdom ??? 😂😂😂
You would not believe how many people (show's execution and character development aside), will defend her actions in 8x5 to death. I find that terrifying, honestly.
@@ngin98 You're totally right, but pop culture can also be a HUGE influence on how people think about certain issues and ideas. So people who defend Dany's actions might become sliiiightly more likely to also defend similar actions in real life (if committed by someone they already liked). I'm certainly not saying people are gonna get brainwashed by a TV show - but it's also naïve to think there isn't ANY influence happening.
The fact that drogon didn't kill Jon makes literally no sense. And yes, dragons do kill targaryens before anyone says. Drogon not killing Jon was just stupid plot writing. Like it was his mother And why tf did non of the other kingdoms want independence after the north? Like make it make sense
Greyworm's actions and behavior are totally on brand and justified. He was never going to be this emotional empathetic person. Definitely wasn't poorly written. He was raised to be a pure soldier from birth and to be a killer and obedient. The only humanizing factor in his life was Missandei and when she was killed he just reverted back even more into that cold heartless individual. His loyalty to Daenerys was always going to be strong. She not only bought him but freed him and gave him status. So when Daenerys orders something to be done hes going to do it especially since the people they are fighting are fighting for Cersei who had just executed Missandei in front of him. Also he personally didn't attack civilians he was killing the other soldiers because those were the orders. If he had spoken out against Daenerys he would've simply been killed and replaced by another unsullied captain who would be loyal to Daenerys still.
I look at the ending as Arya exploring new lands, Bran king of the 6 kingdoms, Sansa queen in the north and with Jon looking back at the gate as it closes, he’s not coming back. He is SSSOOOO going to be the next Mance…king beyond the wall. As you said, the Starks are ruling a lot of it. I’m okay with Bran ruling. He will not be influenced by emotion or his own personal wants. Kind of a neutral Varys…working for the good of the realm
You are such a intelligent and wonderful reactor. I can’t wait to watch HOD with you. I feel the same way about the music with GOT. I love it. I listen to it everyday. The finale was “ok” for me. I do like how the first scene from season 1 was beyond the wall and the final was beyond the wall again. I love the Brienne scene where she is writing about jaime. Sending love!
Sam dropped out of college after one semester and now he is the grand Maester. Tyrion was the hand of two rulers, his kidnapping started the war of 5 kings. How is he not mentioned
@@Stac3y__ I get the callback and them trying to be clever but realistically it just doesn’t make sense that he wouldn’t be mentioned. (Realistically in a show about dragons lol)
George RR Martin and HBO wanted GOT to run for 10 seasons, which you mentioned in this video. It was D&D the show runners who decided to call it after season 8 so they could go work with Disney and make a Star Wars film. After the backlash from season 8, Disney pulled the plug on the D&D Star Wars project. So ultimately they rushed the ending of this show for absolutely nothing.
The creators and producers always planned for the show to be 7 seasons (one season per book). In 2016 they decided season 8 would be the final season, and they signed their Star Wars deal in 2018.
@@kevinwendellcrumb1802 “This is the hard part of what we do,” sighs HBO programming president Michael Lombardo. “We started this journey with David and Dan. It’s their vision. Would I love the show to go 10 years as both a fan and a network executive? Absolutely.” “We’ll have an honest conversation that explores all possible avenues,” Lombardo says. “If they weren’t comfortable going beyond seven seasons, I trust them implicitly and trust that’s the right decision-as horrifying as that is to me. What I’m not going to do is have a show continue past where the creators believe where they feel they’ve finished with the story.” "I don’t know. Ask David and Dan when they come through. We could have gone to 11, 12, 13 seasons, but I guess they wanted a life. If you’ve read my novels, you know there was enough material for more seasons. They made certain cuts, but that’s fine. - George R. R. Martin. "HBO would have been happy for the show to keep going, to have more episodes in the final season. We always believed it was about 73 hours, and it will be roughly that. As much as they wanted more, they understood that this is where the story ends" - Game of Thrones showrunners David Benioff & D. B. Weiss.
You absolutely did Tormund dirty, he was there during the battle on the Wall, he was there at The Battle of the Bastards, he was there beyond the wall when Danny lost her Dragon and he fought during the long night. he was 1000% a better character than Beric Dondarrion.
When you have a chance one day, rewatch the series. I recently did, and loved it even more. Caught onto so many things I missed the first time, saw characters in a new light, realized Daenyrys had hints of what was to come, even with good intentions….the second watch is great, and I will continue to rewatch un the future. best show ever
@@alexandrealencarm8844 I don’t feel that way about the end at all, and I don’t think it was badly written. I understand and respect that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, though. :) And sorry, I meant in like a few years…not right away! 😂 We rewatched it last year, and enjoyed it so much more. We went into it with an open mind, and willing to question our own assumptions and thoughts we had. It was great.
My feelings on the finale were mixed. I wasn’t mad at Dany being a mad queen cause I got the vibe they were hinting at that for a while. I was annoyed they went from 0 to 100 so quickly though. I wish they’d built that storyline up earlier. I thought Bran being named king made sense at first cause he sees all and who is a more powerful king than someone who can see literally everything… but I also thought maybe he’d make a better hand. But Tyrion also was the best hand of the king/queen we’d seen. Ned was great too yes but he wasn’t smart enough to know who to trust wholeheartedly which led to his death. So I was happy with that. I really wanted Jon to be king but I also respected the fact that he never wanted it in the first place, despite being the rightful king. And I was mad how much say they gave Greyworm. I loved his character but he was still following Dany at the end. I don’t feel like he should have say in who does what. Sansa was a great choice for queen of the north but I wouldn’t have been mad if she was made queen of the 7 kingdoms and Arya was made queen in the north but arya also would have hated that. At the end of it I didn’t know who I wanted to be king or queen cause I had conflicting emotions about all of them.
My biggest gripe with GoT started after S6 with how D&D’s (the show runners) writing heavily relied on character meetups, changing characters, and subverting expectations. Obviously Season 8 isn’t liked by most of the community, but imo Season 7 plays a big role in the failures of S8. S8 lacked setup because S7 only consisted of character meetups and rushing to the major plot points. How is Dany getting from Dragonstone to beyond the wall to help Jon in a matter of 10 mins let alone the same episode. Arya killing the Night King was unexpected and awesome, but what does that do to Jon’s character arc? Him being a Targaryen is only used as a plot device to help transition Dany into a villain in a couple episodes. Varys betrays Dany immediately when she previously asked him to let her know if she was failing (his character was stripped down to nothing the last couple seasons/the Varys actor was vocal in how he basically was just a messenger in s7+8) only because we have to turn every Westorsi person against Dany to justify the Mad Queen arc in 2 episodes. Tyrion as an advisor never was 100% correct with his advisement, but 7x1 onwards they made him clueless. The hyped up “Long Night” ended in one episode. The Sansa vs Arya arc in s7 was painfully annoying, Sansa can’t keep a secret for 5 seconds, Bran states, “I can never be lord of anything, i’m the three-eyed raven.” Then when presented with the opportunity to be King he jumps at it. Before the Battle of the Blackwater Davos states, “i’ve never known the bells to mean surrender.” Then Tyrion is like,” Remember the bells ringing means surrender.” AHHHH it’s so infuriating, continuity was just thrown out the window 😢 It’s just annoying how so many of these problems could have been avoided if GRRM wasn’t put on the sidelines, and if D&D weren’t trying to rush to the finish line. I think back to how fast the Tyrells/Greyjoys/Martells were wiped out, not seeing Yara’s reaction to Theon’s death, The Unsullied/Dothraki just leave after Dany’s death. The showrunners give Greyworm a seemingly good ending, with him heading to Naath, the home of Missandei, but foreigners can’t live on Naath because the Naathi have a natural immunity to a disease (potentially caused by butterflys). The show portrays it as a happy ending, but no D&D just straight up forget the lore and lost the plot. I will admit, you can pick most shows apart bone from bone like I just did, but these things should have been easy to nail. The world building in this universe is so detailed, there’s no excuses for losing the plot this badly. Even with all my complaints I still like bits&pieces of the last couple of seasons, but when it’s only because of the setup that the earlier seasons provided. Luckily for us, GRRM has heavy involvement with the future projects in this universe, but regardless that’s my rant. For my head canon the shows ends at 6x10. I loved going on this GoT journey with you, still my favorite show and I don’t think anything will dethrone it. But I have to be honest with it’s faults if i’m gonna love it. Very excited for the HotD reactions!
The only thing I can add to this is how Bran's entire story arc became totally meaningless because basiclly he turned into nothing but shark bait but got to rule a kingdom, give his sister the north's freedome from the 7 kingdoms and not ONE other kingdom tried to declare it's independence? Just sat there and accepted that he gave his sister her own kingdom and they were to remain subjects?
Agreed, but secretly, the issues began around S4-S5. That was around where a LOT of cut content, characters & storylines were meant to take place (faegon, the martells, LADY STONEHEART), not to mention the condensing/derailing of certain character arcs like Sansa/LF (0 sense), Tyrion, etc. This was the first sign D&D were going to be speedrunning the story and just going from plot point to plot point.
Tyrion always told Bronn, if anyone offers you to kill me, I'll beat their offer. Once he became a knight, he was worth double. Cersei promised him RiverRun, double was Highgarden
Regarding the Daenerys twist, I could do a whole essay on why it's perfectly in line with her character but you can find thousands of those online or on RU-vid. I will say this though, it was not out of nowhere. The problem is people expected Game of Thrones to follow a very traditional "good vs evil" dichotomy when it's a lot more nuanced than that. George RR Martin always intended for her to be the final antagonist and the reasoning behind this is quite simple. Daenerys is the antithesis to the classic, stereotypical fantasy villain. She's beautiful, charismatic, empathetic and for most of the show she was the underdog/the outsider. Daenerys did a lot of heroic things but she was also easily the most ruthless and bloodthirsty character on the show, far more than Cersei or Joffrey. Perhaps not as sadistic as either of them but far deadlier. I think the biggest problem is how her character was framed in the adaptation. In the books it's quite clear she's not a great ruler but an exceptional conqueror but conquerors are warlords, they wage war, they pillage and then move on somewhere else, which is exactly what she did. She was never an accomplished politician or ruler. There's more but it's already turning into an essay but i'll leave it at this: Daenerys was an impulsive, warmongering dictator who ALSO freed slaves and did things that are morally righteous but she saw herself as the second coming of Christ, she rarely admitted she was wrong and was quick to anger whenever someone tried to point out the obvious flaws in her grand masterplan.
Great observation about Oppenheimer! While the White Walkers were meant to be an analogy for climate change, the dragons were meant to be an analogy for nuclear weapons. 👍
So the North is now separated from the 6 Kingdoms… yet bran, a northern foreigner is now somehow in charge? 🤦♂️ Oh and the Ironborn “kinda forgot” they also wanted independence.
Danys decent was not out of nowhere... She has said from the beginning "I will take the Iron Throne and nothing will stand in my way" even as early as when she was at Quarth, "those who stand in my way will be answered with fire and blood"... This was rushed, for sure, but it was not unexpected at all...
@@stitchedfreedom She did say earlier in the episode “I have no love here, only fear. Fine… let it be fear.” Which makes me think of Aegon burning down Harrenhal; He didn’t just end house Harron, he set an example. The lords of westeros quickly fell into line and swore fealty to Aegon after that. They would’ve done the same with Dany, but Jon killed her.
I thought Brienne was sworn to Sansa until death. Not sure why she's on the King's Guard. I guess Sansa let her go to fulfill her dream. "Torgo Nudho" is High Valyrian for "Grey Worm"
Having watched the show 5 times, I gotta say, with every single watch, I understand less why people have such a huge problem with they way they decided to end Daenerys' character. Other than the fact that it felt rushed, which is a criticism I myself have too, I feel like the writing was on the wall the whole entire time. Yes, she wanted to do good, her heart was in the right place, but ultimately her black and white view of justice was her downfall, combined with the fact that she developped a bit of a god complex, which c'mon, it's kinda hard not to when everybody keeps worshipping you. It's a tragic ending for her character, but that doesn't make it bad for me. In my eyes, she was never the hero some fans made her out to be, she always had really big flaws as a human being, and those flaws ended up getting the better of her, just as it happened with Robb. It's the same thing with Jaime for me, I see people saying that him going back to Cersei negates his whole character arc. I respectfully disagree. He is the most extreme example of what toxic love does to a person. I never found it to be unrealistic, I know people whose lives became an absolute mess because of not being able to see that the person they were with was completely wrong for them. Once again, it's tragic, but the setup was there, and I don't get why it felt out of left field for some
I agree with you about her. I had no problem with the way the show ended. I think if you want the fleshed out version wait until the books. The show is a cliff notes version of them. Daenerys has had vicious streaks the entire time. I knew she was not going to make it since the end of season 2 when she was in the house of the undying in Quarth. I hope her soul is with Drogo and her son.
I completely agree. I have said all along that I would have been ok with Dany's ending had D&D bothered to give us the courtesy of taking the time and effort to really build up that finale. Instead we got sloppy, shoddy writing and a season haphazardly thrown together.
In the same vision you’re mentioning before she touches the throne she goes north of the wall and reunites with Drogo and their child. It was always destined Jon would kill her 🔥
Interesting take it may be true tho I don't think it was about Jon specifically regardless it's such a same a wonderfully character was executed and destroyed this way
@@user-hv3wt2zr3kexactly, greatest character in television, ruined in the end. She could become the mad quenn, but not this way, they gave little hints, still poor execution.
YES READ THE BOOKS!!! You will probably be stunned how good they are after these last seasons and especially the last episodes Ik it‘s usually not your thing but at least a little video when you finished the books would be GREAT
I'll say, my problem was never where Dany ENDED, but rather how inelegantly the showrunners got her to that destination. For me at least, they never managed to bridge the gap between the idealistic humanist who ended slavery in multiple cities out of the goodness of her heart (INSTEAD of going home to retake the throne years earlier), and the megalomaniacal conqueror who singlehandedly slaughters thousands of innocent people because she's feeling upset that day (and who plans to immediately go conquer the rest of the world, too). Yes yes, "mental illness" and all that, but that takes us back to my issue with bridging the gap. It felt like midway through season 7, the showrunners were just like "Oops, right, she's supposed to go crazy sometime soon, we better get on that" and abruptly started having Dany say and do things that were completely out of character, in order to hastily lay the seeds for her quickly-approaching "descent into madness." And then they doubled down on all that odd behavior once season 8 began. To me at least, it never felt organic or "earned" through the character's own journey. It always felt like they just flipped a "go crazy/evil" switch. I can envision a version of seasons 7-8 where Dany gradually finds herself struggling more and more, becoming incrementally more impulsive/unstable/detached from reality - and she slooooowly starts finding ways to justify her questionable actions more and more often, because she's SCARED by the prospect that she's losing control and becoming like her father. But we never really see any moments of Dany questioning her own judgement, or being confused by people's reactions, or making an active choice to deny her issues and double down. So for me personally, her final villain arc feels like something the writers shoved onto her, rather than something that tragically arose out of her own flaws and weaknesses.
After 10 years protraing this amazing character only to see it destroyed and end like that yeah ofc she felt horrible and it's why she doesn't wanna return in future projects
I totally recommend watching this series a second time! You’ll pick up on so much stuff that you missed the first time and it is definitely a nice dose of nostalgia. Highly enjoyed this journey with you!
Every time I watch a reactor I try to see if anyone will catch on to the fact that there were ALWAYS signs throughout the seasons that Danerys would follow in her father's footsteps and you're the first one that I've seen who actually paid attention! Granted they could have had more seasons because the last one was so condensed BUT, nonetheless, the breadcrumbs were laid, and people refused to follow them. 🤷🏾♀️
Atomic bomb analogy was really nice, i kind of feel the same. Watched the whole series with you, great reaction friend. Thank you very much for the entertainment.
@@orcocan that wasn't the point of the analogy though. Analogies don't have to line up with every single aspect of each other. The point of it was something terrible that would kill tons of people but likely would end a conflict after its done.
@@MovieFusion yes but in this case the conflict was already over... in any case i wasn't having a go at you, you were speaking off the cuff while recording, but i did think it was worth pointing out that it wasn't a fitting analogy
imo 1. Season 4 2. Season 2 3. Season 3 4. Season 1 5. Season 6 All the seasons above this point I liked or loved, everything below I had more mixed or negative feelings toward 6. Season 5 7. Season 7 8. Season 8
I'm sad because I enjoyed your reactions so much, but please please please do House of the Dragon! You will not regret it, it's so good. Also, I started the books after I watched the show and I highly recommend it! It gave me the same chills and goosebumps the show gave me!
I’m sorry no way did you actually drop all of team Daenerys because of writing. And yet kept The Starks and a woman who did nothing but gaze out a window at top of the list.
Well that's what happens when GOT forget the grey scale of characters and just turn all the characters into obvious heroes/villains, also being Stark biased.
I think I've never commented before but now I have to. I was there from the start and I was so happy every time you reacted to a new episode. I was also able to improve my English as a result. (I'm Swiss 🇨🇭) Thank you for the videos and I'm really looking forward to your reaction to House of the Dragon.
Grey Worms reaction in the last 2 episodes makes sense for his character. He’s a man who was brutally trained to kill and obey since he was 5 years old. Missandei is the only person he’s ever loved; he even told her once the war was done, he would leave with her wherever she wanted. Once she dies, him and Dany are in fire and blood mode. “The way they dealt with it in terms of how it affects Dany and Grey Worm makes it even sadder. It’s like when she dies: Grey worm dies too, and he goes back to being a robot death machine.” - Jacob Anderson
@@BhBc8f8 Good question, I don’t get that either. He was their prisoner, and from what Grey Worm says it seems like they were still gonna execute him at some point. When he killed the Lannister soldiers he was acting on Dany’s orders at the beginning of this episode. Sansa says if you look outside your gates you’ll see thousands of Northmen. How long have they been there? Maybe that’s the reason he hasn’t killed him. I wish we knew how everything went down between the time jump.
@@kevinwendellcrumb1802 "Good question, I don't get that either" ?? The copium is strong in this one. Must be some pretty potent stuff because there is absolutely no way her dothraki bloodriders and the unsullied she freed from slavery would hear or arrive upon Jon holding the knife that killed their queen and just.....arrest him and keep him prisoner, and for a couple months it looks like. The writers had them conveniently lose their "fire and blood mode" just so they can have that equally nonsensical voting scene at the end. The plot is influencing a character's decisions instead of the other way around. The red wedding didn't happen because the show wanted to raise the stakes of the show, it happened as a direct consequence of Robb's decisions. But now instead of arcs reaching their natural conclusions we now have characters being so obviously forced towards a specific destination in order to check the boxes off a list. A classic staple of bad writing.
Dany was always cruel, entitled and power hungry. In the first season she doesn't even flinch when her brother gets brutally murdered, he was abusive but her only reaction being "he wasn't a dragon" is screwed up. She burned Mirri Maz Duur because she had taken revenge on Khal Drogo for her village being destroyed, everyone she ever knew being murdered while she herself was raped and then turned into a slave and Dany expected Mirri to be grateful. When she bought the Unsullied and paid with one of her dragons she immediately turned on them and had all the slave masters killed. They weren't good people but this shows that Dany was not trustworthy and of course she uses the unsullied to murder her way through Essos. In Mereen she lines the streets with executed former rulers she had all killed indiscriminately for the crime of not welcoming her and her murder army with open arms, she screwed up every place she ever ruled walked over a bunch of dead bodies and that was with a bunch of advisors reigning in her worst instincts. She talked a lot about "breaking the wheel" but that apparently meant "kill all my enemies, become queen and keep killing everyone who doesn't kiss the ground I walk on", caring for the little people was just talk, she never truly did, she cared about them worshipping her.
Jon is going North WITH the wildlings. The last chapter in the books will be called A Time for Wolves. And the last book will be called A Dream of Spring. If they ever get finished. Which I seriously doubt happens, at this point. The books are still worth it. But they won't get finished.
where did u read the last chapter will be called a time for wolves? I thought that was originally the name of the last and third book, before GRRM decided to make 4 more books
I agree, Dany is a great villain but it‘s like there‘s a whole season missing between episodes 3 and 5, where we would have seen her descent into madness.
That "descent into madness" occurred constantly from seasons 1-7, so no, not really anything missing. Also, it's not madness at all, just anger and hatred; she's not actually insane like her father was.
@@hoon_solthe whole “her descent is shown over seasons 1-7” is utter rubbish its very easy to look back knowing how she ends up and nitpick everything she does that could ever be morally questionable. If arya had gone on a murder spree after the long night and killed loads of our fave characters it would be super easy to look back on all the morally bad things shes done and all the cold blooded murders shes done and say “see the signs were there”. EVERY character apart from maybe jon has made bad decisions that are morally questionable. Hard agree she isnt actually mad tho, i believe her actions were truly based on fear and anger more than anything, she was scared that after everything she had suffered her lifes goal was within reach yet about to slip from her grasp, and that fear influenced her decisions. And i actually like the idea of the hero becoming the villain i find it really interesting so not against daeny going bad but very against the poor execution of it.
@@danno1375: It's not rubbish at all, but thanks for letting us know that you're an ignorant moron for missing it. Let me guess, you were all hyped and stoked for your yass girrrl fluffy magic princess Dany? The idea that this has anything to do with hindsight is just stupid; me and many others saw that ending coming a mile away, already halfway through the series was it starting to get blatantly obvious. There was no "hero becoming a villain" here, because Daenerys was never a hero, she was always a tyrant. It was not poorly executed at all, it was executed very well.
@@danno1375 It’s interesting you brought up the Arya thing because they talk about that in Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon. “In several ways, Arya had been on a similar path to Daenerys. They were both heroic young woman who were victims of terrible tragedies, who then became increasingly skilled at survival; yet also murderous and apathetic. When Arya poisoned a feast at house Frey in revenge for the red wedding. It was not unlike Daenerys crucifying the masters. They are evil as a group yes, but what about as individuals? Did everybody at the banquet deserve the same fate.” Bryan Cogman-“Arya had her final conversation with the Hound, after witnessing so much horror and devastation she changed her mind about going after Cersei. She made the opposite choice from Daenerys: to embrace life over death, at almost the exact same moment in the series.”
I have to admit that I really like the idea of Bran being the king. Sure, he's not the most lively guy but he's neutral, not evil, smart and he knows everything that's going on thanks to his powers so he'll know if someone is planning something bad, etc.
It really does make sense. I think a lot of peoples issues with it came from the ‘best story’ line because some viewers treated it as a meta line which it isn’t
Since you've learned basically the storyline the character's names and places and you watch the series a second time just enjoying it, you will actually see all the clues and spots sprinkled through the entire character arc that actually explains that this is very feasible. She has made bad rash decisions she deals in absolutes and as she got more and more power she became more and more Convinced that she is doing good when her idea of liberation is complete Control.
All throughout the show they hinted at Dany's tendency for fury. Early on she threatened to burn down Qarth, in 5x8 when she was talking to Tyrion about her goal, she said she wanted to break the wheel, and it was said in such an ominous way. In 6x9, she told Tyrion she would burn down the slavers ships and cities and return them to the dirt. She always had these reactions and thoughts, but she had people she cared for around her to talk to her off that ledge.....then come 8x5, she didn't have anyone anymore. She was hurt, lost everything, everyone -- including the person she loved (Jon). She was alone, scared, angry and she wasn't satisfied with taking the city. I certainly don't condone what she did at all, but there were snippets of signs throughout the show that she had this rageful side like her father. Sadly her bad side won out of her good nature.
I’m glad that we agree on a lot of fronts. I felt out of place for not thinking the series ended terribly. There are so many people that claim to hate the ending so badly that it tanked the show. I definitely have my complaints, but I believe the show’s ending wasn’t as horrible as the internet makes it seem. Edit: can’t wait for you to get into hotd btw!
I’m glad he had to reaction he did, even though I liked the ending more than most people. He’s just awesome with how he expresses his feelings and opinions. I wish there were more content creators like him.
Oh it’s definitely bad, especially if you have knowledge about the universe outside of Game of thrones. Like why let Tyrion run the meeting where they decide who will be king? Bran having the best story in the show?💀 the north declaring independence while dorne and the iron islands, known for their independence and fighting for it, just sitting there and not declaring their own independence?🥴 Jamie and Cersei being killed by bricks but then we can see that if they moved in any direction, they would’ve lived.💀 greyworm sailing to Naath….the island where the butterflies there melt your skin and kill anyone who is not native there…when you start dissecting the ending, the issues become very apparent.
@@warhammer101 I didn’t claim for the ending to be good. In fact I agree that it made many mistakes in the last two seasons. I was simply saying that it wasn’t as terrible as people hyped it up to be. I heard some say that they wouldn’t recommend the show due to the ending. Others said the show was bad altogether because of the ending alone. Ppl were acting like they couldn’t watch the show even if they were held at g*n point, which is just soooo dramatic and immature.
As I always agreed that the season could have been much longer, in retrospect why should it have been? Like, why were earlier seasons long while we see characters travel from place to place on foot or on horseback or by ship? Because yes it takes a long time to get places by such means, but also that there was a lot of story to tell during those travels, many more locations to focus on, a lot more politics going on, many more character interactions. In season 8 though, we really only have a handful of locations to even worry about, with only two main stories left over to tie up. There's not much politics going on, the only thing needed is to move armies from one place to another in order to fight a battle. Were we going to get two or three whole episodes watching Jon and his Northerners travel the King's Road on the way down to join up with Dany, also seeing her and her ships traveling to Dragonstone, just talking about plans for two or three episodes? And then show Cersei in King's Landing looking over battle plans for two or three episodes? About the only thing we could have really got to slow things down and drag out episodes is if maybe Cersei sent a force of the Golden Company to meet Jon's northerners in the open field for a battle, to slow him down, while also having Euron's fleet and his men take over Dragonstone so that Dany has to worry about taking that back. Maybe that could have been two episodes. But what would that have ultimately added to the story? Maybe use a fight against Euron to take back Dragonstone as the better moment to kill one of her dragons and to witness Missande being taken hostage? Honestly in hindsight we could always make up things could have been better. I've always said though, while we all wait to see what happens in the books, we all also know that GRRM gave his notes to the showrunners at HBO about certain key elements, plots, and presumably how he planned on ending it. However, we will never know what his TRUE plans for the actual ending would have been. There's no doubt that quite a lot of people didn't like at least the last two episodes of the final season, some even disliked the entire 8th season, some even went as far as not like the story since season 5 when the show diverged from the books. But just focusing on the last season and how it ended and the events just leading up to that (mainly Dany's Mad Queen turn and putting Bran on the Iron Wheelchair), a lot of GOT fans did not like that and are hoping the books end differently. But will they? And was that GRRM's intention originally? Think about this: GRRM knows that the HBO show's ending didn't sit well with some people (I say some, its hard to say if its a small percentage, half of people, or a large percentage of fans), but lets say the books end up being pretty much the same conclusion, Bran on the throne and the Mad Dany burning King's Landing (also keep in mind in the books, there's a lot more characters and story threads that could make a world of difference in how the story goes). But if it ends up pretty much how the show ends, the ones that hated that ending will accuse GRRM of maybe bowing to some kind of pressure from HBO to make sure that his ending aligns with the show's ending in some conspiracy theory for HBO to "save face", like "see dont be mad at us, thats how the writer wanted it to end too!" I can easily see people coming to that conclusion. OR, if the book's end in a different way, with maybe Dany on the throne and everybody alive and happy or something, there will STILL be conspiracy theorists that will claim that GRRM saw that people did not like the show's ending, and GRRM's ending was originally going to be just like it, but in order to get away from that he has enough time and story plot to weave his story away from that and to change his ending to spite HBO. So again, we will never ever truly know GRRM's true planned ending for his story. Never.
On Jaime: He was never going to let his lifetime love and unborn child brutally die. He was mean to Brienne so she would let him go, and without following him. And being a jerk to her would be easier for her in the long run, rather than losing someone she loved. He knew he could live his new, happier life by staying….but he could ‘t let Cersei die alone, or his unborn baby die alone. He wasn’t a jerk in the end. Letting his unborn child and twin sister/love (no matter how cruel) die would have been out of character for him. On Greyworm: He doesn’t have any allegiance to the people of Westeros. He kills who his Queen tells him to. Dany and Missandei were the people he cared for, so it’s no surprise he is hurt by their loss. On Bronn: Cersei gave him the offer, but it was obvious he never intended to follow through…he just wanted the better offer from Tyrion and Jaime. She assumed he would serve the person who paid him most, but Bronn obviously cares for her brothers way more than her, so it was more of a bargaining chip for him. He was never going to do it. On Dany: Again, watch the show over one day…I just did and was shocked how many ruthless things she did that paralleled Cersei. It is a brilliant look at what makes a good ruler. Even with good intentions, having such absolute power to kill without feeling the weight of taking is a life is a dangerous thing. She has taken lives very easily throughout the show, and without remorse. And Dany is so focused on the goal, that the end often justifies the means. It doesn’t make her a villain all along…it makes her a danger, though. Bran as king felt unsatisfying at first, but someone not motivated by power or destiny to rule, without strong emotion to act out in vengeance like Dany did, and who knows the history of all the mistakes and can prevent them from being repeated….probably the best ruler they could ask for.
Thank you for truly not listening to other peoples opinions on the show. Some people are to into the politics of the show and not the show itself. If you really think about it. There would never be any backlash against the writers or anything if there were no internet. People would just hate how the characters turned out from their actions.
Remember when Bronn said he doesn't know how loans work. He's now master of coin and owner of the largest food production region in the country. Great move Tyrion.
That music gets me emotional too. And the ending is hard. Fingers crossed for the Jon Snow series…though I want that poor character to finally have peace, I also need more Thrones!
I initially felt exactly the same way you’ve explained here. But now, having watched so many reactions through the entire series, I actually think it makes perfect sense the way it happened. They showed her fire and blood tendencies early on and then they showed her being rejected by everyone in the north the last two seasons. And in the end she lost it and went full on.
Most of the problems i had with this season is how rushed it was. There was no time to show how the characters shifted in viewpoints, just "boom" new version!... had other issues too, but the rushing was the main one.
You will LOVE House Of The Dragon!! It takes place almost 200 years before the Mad King, and Daenarys's birth. It's so GOOD!!❤❤ I LOVED watching this with you. Hey, at least you have more GOT UNIVERSE to look forward to! Season 2 of HOTD will be out in 2024, not too far of a wait to watch 2nd Season.. HOTD fans have been holding our breaths, waiting for it!!🎉🎉🎉
I love posting this: The actor who played Theon was in John Wick, Bronn was in John Wick 3, Jorah played opposite Angelina Jolie in one of the Tombraider movies, he was pretty cool looking back then, and Lena Headey (Cersei) played the beautiful Queen, opposite Gerard Butler in the epic movie "300".
GRRM was inspired by The Hundred Years War and GoT is particularly influenced by The Wars of the Roses. I find many characters are a blend of many prominent historical figures. HotD is more focussed on The Anarchy. 😎 But, please do read the books!
All the Nights Watch died before the Great War. Only Sam, Jon and Ed were left. Then Ed was killed. The Freefolk said when they left Winterfell they were wintering at Castle Black before heading home. Grey Worm doesn't know there is no need for a Nights Watch. Jon was actually set free. He never wanted to rule.
One of my favorite moments of the episode was drogon burning the throne. It’s like he knew Jon isn’t to blame for his mothers death, it was always the chase of the throne that lead to her demise.
I enjoyed your journey & your reactions. I agree with most you say in the end. We all wished for the show to have more show & never end. The screenplay writers, D&D, had enough of George who failed to deliver the next book (Over 10 years since, as they were shooting season 6), to cover future episodes beyond season 5, so they wanted to get on with their lives. He left hundreds of GOT show employees in limbo. So they called season 7 & 8 to be their last. To me, the best 20 consecutive episodes of the show started at the start of season 6 & ended at season 8 episode 3, The Long Night. I thought the ending here, the last 15 minutes, was perfection. It nailed to us on with whom the show was really about. The same family that the show centered around in the pilot episode. The show was never really about a blonde girl & her dragons, it was about a morally good family that took their lumps when they went their separate ways, endured & came out on top. What all great movies are usually about, the good guys finishing on top. It was always Bran to be on the throne in the end, BEFORE D&D even took the job to be the screenwriters of the show. What George did, if you paid close attention to the pilot episode, he paid off the remaining Starks in what they coveted (Not as some fans felt, as in Deserves), everyone of them. He took all the remaining pieces of the puzzle & put them to where they belong. Bran was really one of the last pieces to be put in the proper place. It was Bran who was being groomed to lead from the beginning. Bran was most in awe of the sight of the king coming to Winterfell. George also liked to borrow from other Books/Movies, the character Bran mirrored Professor X, the leader of the X-Men. A disabled being, wheelchair bound, with a vast mind that can enter other minds & see things beyond. One thing in watching new reactors, is always seeing them address haters (As I call them), who try to manipulate new reactors by planting seeds in their head early on, about how bad the show becomes. Always saying, "I'm told, I was warned....." Nothing that a reactor had to contend with as the episodes first aired. They all seemed to love everything till the last couple of episodes & those that had a beef, was a small minority of those reactors. Some of the hate came from people that had too much time on their hands between seasons, who made a fortune in hype videos, as if they were the screenwriters themselves, predicting on how the show would end. When the show didn't end the way they thought, then came the sour grapes. Some of the other hate came from people that were infatuated with the Daenarys story, that they didn't quite pay attention that the Stark family always got the bulk of the minutes of the show, that the show centered around them & they ignored the Mad King story. But most of the hate came from book readers, who always compared what they read to what they see in the show, never acknowledging that the guy that they worshiped, left everyone hanging & never pointing to some big errors in the first 5 seasons under his toolage, if one dissected those seasons as they did of the last 3 seasons. Original book readers are a small minority of the show's viewers, but sure are the loudest when it came to criticism. Enough so, that the last few episodes, had many of them destroying everything D&D the screenwriters did, which shows vastly on IMDB's ratings, especially for all of season 8. Which is kind of funny, as much of the ending, the last couple of episodes, was as George drew it up. This is why he is taking over 3 years to redo the ending. My take is pretty simple, GOT is the best show ever on TV in my book & is ranked #2 on IMDB (#2 to Breaking Bad, which coincidentally beat GOT, for Best Drama Emmy, in GOT's first 4 seasons, the only 4 GOT didn't win the Emmy for) among all TV shows. George put together a great uncompleted story, but his books in comparison are not thought of in the same realm among all time books. The show, really helped bring a much bigger audience to his books, not really the other way around. George is great, but he is no Tolkien, he certainly had Tolkien's work out there to borrow from. See you in HOTD. Great show, a few holes in it, if you pay close attention, I'm glad no D&D around to blame.
Bran becoming king is the worst scene in this entire show. He'd be a good master of whisperers, but king?? Hell no! Most of the people there dont even know or understand what the three eyed raven even is. Theyre all just blindly accepting him. None of the starks even mentioning Jons lineage. Yara not declaring independence after sansa did so easily. Tyrion even being allowed to make the decision. Also why did they keep tyrion and jon alive? Wouldnt greyworm have executed them considering his passion for Dany? None of it makes any sense at all.
I am very happy you have decided to start reading books about this universe. Just like you I read them after the show ended and just like you I'm not a person who used to read. You will not regret this choice. Some moments made me literally speechless.
I really enjoyed the ending. I can understand some of the criticisms put towards the season but a lot of them are completely nonsense. I think there is a case of some people building up their own h hopes of what they wanted to happen and getting upset when it didn’t which I can understand to an extent. I also think there is the case of a lot of people trying to use things from the books to say about things in the show. The books really are quite different, and the show changed quite a lot even before they caught up with the book. Perhaps it should’ve stayed truer to the books earlier on in the series but alas it didn’t, probably down to things like budget back in the first few seasons. Overall I do really like it. My season rankings is something like 4, 6, 3, 8, 7, 2, 1 and 5. I really enjoyed the vast majority of the show (except a lot of season 5) House of the Dragon is fantastic and I look forward to you watching that
My problem isn’t how it ended because I’m sure the books are ending the same way. I’ve always felt Dany would take a darker turn and it’s been theorized that Bran would be king (the Fischer king theory)…the problem was the pacing and the writing/dialogue and character development. I think if the show had one more season or even 4-6 more episodes it would have resolved the issues. I think the decision to cut out most of the fantasy elements and to take out Young Griff was an issue. I think it left the writers in a bit of a pickle on how to successfully tie up the loose ends. I think they should have spent more time showing Dany’s struggle to have peace in Meereen and her willingness to compromise and sacrifice when fire and blood would have been easier. It’s the failure of that peace that is going to change how she reacts to Westeros and young Griff. I think cutting Bran out of a huge portion of the show was a mistake because the audience was more attached to Jon and Dany and had no real connection to Bran. The fact that Bran didn’t actually do anything with his abilities was a weird choice to make. Jon coming back from the dead and his character not changing at all and in fact stagnating was a problem. The whole Sansa storyline was weird her actions during the battle of the bastards made no sense, she took credit for winning the battle when she didn’t do anything and failing to inform her allies was a bad move. Aryas struggles with identity and finally finding herself and her pack only to abandon them doesn’t make sense. The dialogue was horrible. I mean that last line between Dany and Jon with the “when I was a little girl who couldn’t count to 20” 😂 were people pissed that Dany and Jon didn’t get married and have lots of babies and rule the seven kingdoms yeah I’m sure a great deal of people were pissed it didn’t end like that, but honestly the writing just sucked that was my problem and I think most people felt that way. The books are great and I wish they could have stayed truer to the story, but that would make it quite difficult to adapt so I understand and accept that changes had to be made. I think the writers just wanted it to be done and rushed through it which is a shame because it could have been so much more.
Not sure of the WWII analogy. The Lannister armies had surrendered. The bells were ringing. The forces of imperial Japan hadn't surrendered. Indeed, even AFTER eating two nukes, the leadership voted half in favor of surrender and half in favor of continued fighting---with the Emperor making the final decision. In the final analysis, invasion of the islands would have resulted in millions more casualties on both sides.
