I dont think you realized this but if you pay attention to the beginning, varys was talking with a child about dany not eating. He said "we will try again at supper". He was actively trying to poison her so that Jon can be the King, because she was gonna burn down the King's Landing. So it's not like Varys got executed just because he suggested Jon should be the King, he got executed because he was actively trying to kill her.
@@mamakat114 the books stoped when Jon died season 5 episode 10 mother's mercy everything else has been written by David and dan aka dumb and dumber .. at the moment George RR Martin is writing wind's of winter and apparently he's 3 quarter's done thing is in the books there are more characters and more story lines that is not in the show .. I did read that David and dan did ask George how it was going to end in his mind and David and dan basically have written there version from what George said but thing is George changes his mind and re writes alot reason why he's taking so long to finish also after wind's of winter there is serpose to be the last book dreams of summer I think it's called but not sure on that
Where and what was said to confirm this? I've watched the final season twice. Way less than the other series'. Just leaves a bitter taste overall. Obviously can't say why yet. But I was feeling the same as this guy, the more I watched,the less I liked Dani. Her attitude and heart for the small people, and just her balances fairness just kept disappearing,and that was way before she lost jorah,missandei and her dragons before anyone starts using that excuse. I mean all if that obviously added to her insanity. But people go through ALOT and never go loopy.
I think the odds were against Dani from birth. Losing Drogo and his child was the first real trauma, she lost Sir Bariston, more recently the losses came quickly. Two of her dragons, Messandi, the betrayal of Varys, then finding out the man she loved had a stronger claim to the iron throne than she did....and seeing how everyone loved him....how he was starting to pull away from her, etc. Events were taking a toll on her and I think she finally snapped. Please remember this is just one person's opinion.
Glad you picked up on Arya calling him Sandor. I've seen that scene over 2 dozen times & I get chills. Plus the caring way he cups the back of her head & begs her to leave. He basically was a surrogate Father to her.
Daenerys is consumed by grief and rage and she is lashing out at the world. She deceives herself into believing that what she did was right, and the only way to build a better world is to destory the old one. Her mad queen arc was rushed though.
We all remember what Dany said to the spice merchant when entering Quarth - "When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me, and destroy those who have wronged me, will lay waste to armies and *burn cities to the ground."* There is also a VERY curious dialogue that most people forget about, the one between Dany and Hizdahr zo Loraq - a nobleman whose father she crucified in Mireen- during the reopening of the fighting pits. I will share the dialogue below. "Hizdahr: What great thing has eνer been accomplished without killing or cruelty? l'm talking about the necessary conditions for greatness. Dany: That [the fighting] is greatness? Hizdahr: That is a νital part of the great city of Meereen, which existed long before you or l and will remain standing long after we haνe returned to the dirt. *Dany: One day your great city will return to the dirt as well.* *Hizdahr: At your command?* *Dany: lf need be.* *Hizdahr: And how many people will die to make this happen?* *Dany: lf it comes to that, they will haνe died for a good reason.* *Hizdahr: Those men [the ones fighting in the fighting pits] think they're dying for a good reason.* *Dany: Someone else's reason.* *Hizdahr: So your reasons are true and theirs are false?"* So, we can clearly see that Dany was always a bit bloodthirsty in the show, and always thought that her way was the best way, no matter the cost, and that other people's opinions and lives were secondary to her quest/destiny. Sure, in the books everything will likely be different, which is great.
The Mad Queen. Her coin flip came up on the wrong side. She lost Jorah, Missande, 2 dragons, a large number of Dothraki and Unsullied and was “betrayed” (in her mind) by Sansa, Tyrion, Jon and Varys, all in the span of a few weeks. She snapped and the mad side of her Targaryen bloodline emerged. It makes perfect sense but seemed rushed with the smaller episode count in the season
One of the biggest mistakes they made was not calling it Season 7A and Season7B like breaking bad. A 13 episode final season sounds way better than 6 episodes.
@@kevinwendellcrumb1802 Nah, just shoot 30 more minutes, 10 per episode, and make Episodes 3, 5 and 6 double episodes. They're already 50% longer than average episodes, bringing in the total time in S8 to 7.5 standard episodes, not 6.
@@SerbAtheist I would’ve loved that. If you combine S7 and S8 it’s comes out to 14.2 hrs, which is why I think it should’ve been a Part 1 and Part 2 situation. Although I’m not sure that would’ve affected people opinions on the overall season.
😂 its always funny to see the confusion of people reacting to Daenerys. Like how did people see her as such a saint?? Shes always had the capability of snapping and just blacking out. She's executed people before without a single thought. Without the council of Jorah, Tyrion, Varys she would've killed alot of people. Especially on rewatches you see her irrationality in her speeches. She's always been capable of this. She literally mentioned that she should just fly down to kingslanding and burn the city down multiple times. Before the dragons were even big she also mentions how she was impatient about their growth, all she wanted to do was go down to kingslanding and burn it down. The death of Missandei and her dragon was the final straw mixed in with the lack of support she received from the north and the "betrayal" from Jon/Varys. This was VERY much in character.
THANK YOU! I really loved her for the first couple of seasons. But then I just disliked her completely. I appreciate her badass moments, but I knew she was bad.
The death of the hound was painful for me!! I wanted him to live so he could have shown everyone he was really a good man..he wanted to kill his brother and that was his goal in his life, once he did that I believe he would have changed the way he wanted to live, I think he would have told Aryia how deeply he cared for her (like a family member) and how much he respected others!! I just think he could have changed and understood people can and do love and respect him and that he, himself, is capable of loving!!
Would you be so gushing about the Hound if you were the mother of the child he killed in S1E2? He had way too much cr*p to atone for. I'm kinda annoyed at people being overly 'enthusiastic', to put it mildly, about the Hound's, Jaime's and Theon's 'redemption arc' despite these fellas being straight up murderers, in the case of the Hound and Theon murderers of children! It's one thing to say these people changed for the better and applaud that development. It's completely another to act as if their victims never existed!
Yo for real, everyone wanted them dead when they were cheering for Ned’s head. Now all the sudden cuz it’s her, oh we care about the small folk who we don’t even know their names. Damnit I thought I could watch this without getting worked up again.
This episode didn't make my top 10. But what you & others missed is the whole story of the Mad King. The Mad King didn't become King, because he was a raving lunatic. He got that title, the Mad King, AFTER he went mad. He snapped. Dani lost in a short time, 2 of her dragons, Missandei & Jorah. 3 of her inner circle turned on her. Jon told Sansa, despite Dani telling him not to, Tyrion learned from Sansa & went & told Varys, who immediately cashed her out. She had one true blue left, Greyworm & he snapped. Why did the Mad King snap? For one thing, it is said somewhere in the shows, that with all the inbreeding, you flip a coin to find out if a Targaryan comes out of sane mind. We were all forewarned throughout the show about the Mad King going mad. It was mentioned over & over again. Nothing in the show is considered wasted dialog. Personally, I would of wanted another angle on Dani, but what I've gradually seen of Dani, her snapping, is not that far fetched.
exactly, throughout the whole show she has wanted to burn cities and her advisors would talk her out of it. there was no one to talk her out of it this time except for tyrion who she is not listening to anymore. the warning signs were always there!
over the years since i saw this episode i've gotten myself to like the daenerys stuff 1. over the past season or two she's lost almost everything important to her because of her pursuit of the throne, would screw with anyone mentally 2. she's kind of been doing that for the entire show, she's killed innocents everywhere she's been, it just never felt like it because of our perspective. kings landing is a place we know full of people we know and we get to see other perspectives from jon and arya so it feels way worse
I was just gutted The Hound had to throw himself into a giant fire to kill The Mountain. Obviously the fall would be what killed him, but he would see those flames coming closer ... still, it's poetic that he used fire to kill The Mountain.
Even worse, he could have simply drop kicked him through the wall and lived. The Hound became my favorite and stayed my favorite the moment he offered to take Sansa with him when he left Kings Landing. Sandor was actually one of the most Honorable men in Westeros when all was said and done. He did as duty demanded until he just couldn't anymore From there he protected Arya, tried to walk away from it all. Avenged the death of innocents. Risked his life north of the wall and at Winterfell and killed a monster as his last act. Love that guy
I personally liked this episode. I understand Dani's decent into madness and for me, it was expected. A lot of people already left great comments as to why so I don't need to get into it. Out of the entire series the actual finale was the only episode I wasn't fond of. I thought it was boring and I wasn't too thrilled about who got the throne, but the finale didn't ruin the series for me. I still love watching the whole thing. I mean, seriously, how many shows have finales that everyone's going to love and agree with.
The end is weird, probably because peace is boring haha. So it feels different from the rest of the series, for sure. I would have never imagined who ended up ruling, but in the end, that person’s whole story has no point unless it ends up that way, and nothing in westeros changes if anyone else rules. So not what I expected or thought I wanted, but definitely the only ending that really makes sense for real change.
I'm hoping for multiple tier lists after you finish the last episode. Like you did for the walking dead. I know since you're going on vacation/away. There won't be time more recently but hopefully in the future
Season 8 is just beyond messed up. It was terrible work from the directors and writers who clearly had no idea what they were doing. Open character stories and pure bullshit.
Daenerys>>>> She did what was necessary. Cersei said she would have to take out innocents if she wanted the throne and she did. "Theyll know who to blame when the sky falls down on them." Thata a faking Targaryen. It's funny how everyone suddenly forgives the Lannister soldiers and feel bad they're getting merked. Or the city for cheering for Ned's head.
And I still prefer Cersei over Daenerys. Cersei didn't pretend to be a nice and good queen - she was always herself. Daenerys was mad like her father. From the very beginning.
I may get judged for this but the masters technically count as civilians since they didn't carry weapons. "Slay the masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who holds a whip, but harm no child [under 10]. Strike the chains off of every slave you see!" This is what happens when someone wants to vent and has a dragon. It brings to mind what Daenerys did to "avenge" Barristan Selmy.
Agreed. One scene that people over look is in Season 4: Dany crucified 163 slave masters in retaliation for them doing the same to children. Dany later finds out that Hizdahr’s father was crucified, and he was a good man who fought against slavery and didn’t deserve his fate (who knows how many others were innocent). And the Barrastan situation you mentioned: In season 5, After the sons of the harpy kill Barrastan, Dany burned a nobleman alive and fed him to her dragons to send a message. She didn’t know if the man was guilty or innocent.
Not sure why you added "under 10" like where did you get that from? That was never in the dialogue. And how is freeing men who were kidnapped, broken and castrated from childhood to be sold for money considered "venting", like are you just making up your own words now.
Dany snapped a long time ago. "The last time you touch me will be the last time you have hands" "he was not a dragon" " I will burn you first" and that was just season 1 and 2. She was always on the verge of insane. To be so close to everythings shes wanted. She's only had empathy for people that have shared her trauma and views everyone as a potential betrayer. The show has been waving at us for so many seasons. Demonstrating how crazy this entitled dictator has been.
“Daenerys was a character who always preferred to do the right thing, so long as doing the right thing didn’t entirely thwart her own ambition, or undermine her perceived authority to rule. When Dany bumped up against such conflicts, it was her advisors who typically pushed her toward the moral choice. And they had to make pragmatic arguments to explain why doing the right thing was also better for her. Whereas Jon snow always did the right thing, often foolishly and regardless of consequence.” - Alan Taylor The Bells is what happens when a volatile persons entire world blows up. She loses trust in all of her advisors. Both of her best friends die right in front of her. She loses two of her children in a short time period. And she finds out that her entire purpose is a lie, because the man she loves (who can’t reciprocate it) is actually heir to the throne, not her. Cersei doomed the city when she beheaded Missendie during Danys final offer of mercy. In the book Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon: Chapter 30 is all about Dany’s ending, and it’s so interesting to hear everyones insight on how her story came to that conclusion.
What Daenerys did in this episode is not very surprising imo. She's always had a dark side in the past, her actions are not as sudden, especially after the massacre of episode 4 and Missandei last words "Dracarys". 8x05 has many issues, I admit it, but sequences with Dany are not what it shock me the most.
@@jlerrickson Yes totally agree, her descent into madness was a bit rushed, I would have loved they add at least 3, 4 episodes or more before the battle against Cersei to study Daenery's character. I am more shocked by Varys death tbh.
I don’t understand when people are surprised that Dany snapped. She’s been dealing with loss and betrayal throughout the show no matter how much “good” she was trying to do. Plus she’s a Targaryen, it was only a matter of time.
@@pearlsucccessorbecause the people in Westeros don’t love her, they don’t want her. Nobody wants a Targaryen back on the thrones, nobody wants dragons in their country after history has proved time and time again that is a horrific thing. She knows this, and after all that’s happened, she’s going to snap and kill them all.
Hmm.. I'd argue Jon went through more trauma (from the start of S1 anyway. I know Dany had a rough childhood.) But yeah, Jon wouldn't have done that 🤷♀️ this is just fanfiction tho.. who knows how things will actually turn out, besides George...
If she was a "breaking" type, she would have broken long ago. All she survived made her stronger. And after defeating NK and averting apocalypse, she should be hopeful, no matter the losses. This is simply BAD WRITING.
@@mack_taylor “Daenerys was a character who always preferred to do the right thing, so long as doing the right thing didn’t entirely thwart her own ambition, or undermine her perceived authority to rule. When Dany bumped up against such conflicts, it was her advisors who typically pushed her toward the moral choice. And they had to make pragmatic arguments to explain why doing the right thing was also better for her. Whereas Jon snow always did the right thing, often foolishly and regardless of consequence.” - Alan Taylor
You’re forgetting a lot. The Targaryens have a madness and she broke the second Missandei died. The Dothraki are used to pillaging so that was just them. Greyworm was also broken as he never thought he’d know love until Missandei and having it stripped away destroyed him.
I hate this excuse to justify this episode. The truth is no one would have been upset with Danny's turn has D&D took the money HBO was offering to do many more episodes to justify Danny's turn to Mad Queen. That would have been great!
@@mandyrae7578They didn’t need more episodes to justify it. Does this sound like a sane person? Season 5 Dany: One day your great city will return to the dirt as well. Hizdahr: At your command? Dany: If need be. Hizdahr: And how many people will die to make this happen? Dany: If it comes to that, they will have died for a good reason. Hizdahr: (looks at men in the fighting pit) Those men think they’re dying for a good reason. Dany: Someone else’s reason. Hizdahr: So your reasons are true and theirs are false? They don’t know their own minds, but you do? In season 1 Dany proclaimed to the Dothraki “I am the dragons daughter, and I swear to you that those who would harm you, will die screaming”. In season 2, Dany said “When my dragons are grown we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me. We will lay waste to armies, and burn cities to the ground”. In season 4, Dany crucified 163 slave masters in retaliation for them doing the same to children. Dany later finds out that Hizdahr’s father was crucified, and he was a good man who fought against slavery and didn’t deserve his fate (who knows how many others were innocent). In season 5, After the sons of the harpy kill Barrastan, Dany burned a nobleman alive and fed him to her dragons to send a message. She didn’t know if the man was guilty or innocent. In season 6, Danys response to the masters attacking the city was “I will crucify the masters. Set their fleets afire, kill every last one of their soldiers, and return their cities to the dirt.” In season 7, she ignored Tyrion’s pleas and had drogon burn Dickon and Randyl after they refused to bend the knee. Her kneel or die attitude was in full effect here.
That's just propaganda, there has only been one "mad" targaryen in the history of westeros. And even if was genetic, that's not how mental illness works, it's not a switch. You don't go from sane to insane in 2 episodes.
If you ever get the chance to rewatch the series, you will see all the little hints of Danny being just like her father, the mad king. She too, has also made alot of mistakes and has made alot of impulsive and bad moves... Like father,l like daughter.
Name 1 thing that made u think Danny was as bad as the mad king? She literally spent a majority of her life fighting for slaves in essos when it didnt help her. Then she helped jon with the mission north of the wall even though it costed her a dragon. She was literally the most selfless person in the show until this episode.
@@nickpalumbo8046 Selfless my ass. Her entire purpose was to take the throne for herself. She never put anyone else ahead of her. It was all "me" "me" "me". She used war mongering dothraki savages even though she knew they would rape pillage and burn. She burned a good woman alive who sought to prevent the evil terror she was spreading. She murdered innocent masters (of course not all were innocent, but most definitely some were). She watched her brother, who pretty much raised her, burn alive without even the slightest remorse. Perhaps she was terrible because of her brother and the way she was raised, but regardless good people do not act the way she acted throughout this show. If you act the way she acts then you should seriously take time to critically analyze your own faults.
they've been teasing the mad queen theory along the show ! am I the only one who saw it coming ? her impulses are the same as her father's and btw the mad king had a more valid trigger to go mad
She’s always been impulsive and does resort to burning her enemies. Just like any lord/king. Even the Starks demand that the north bend the knee or die. Instead of fire they use a sword. What’s the difference? But when has she ever been in favour of killing innocent people? She’s been the most considerate when it comes to protecting the innocent people. Bit of a weird twist.
Oh and foreshadowing doesn’t equal character development. If she were to go “mad” then she’d need to have some type of mental illness and paranoia set in for multiple seasons.
If Jon would have laid that pipe when dany asked him “is a queen all I am to you?” She wouldn’t have burned the city up. If I had a dragon and my wife didn’t throw down when I really needed it my city would have burned down like 23 times.
I always took it as Dany was slowly turning into her father from the moment she lost her first dragon. Then she meets Jon and falls in love with him. Then later finds out he’s her biggest threat to the throne. Then she lost another dragon. Jorah died saving her in the long night. Missandei got beheaded. And Cersei surrendering wasn’t enough after everything she’d been through. She wanted more and snapped. It drove her to a point where she didn’t care about anything but her own selfish intentions to take the throne, by any means necessary. As long as she gets to be queen. She was threatened by Jon, but also loved him. This conflict drove her to insanity. Can’t justify any of it but that’s always been my understanding of it.
I'm still hopeful that GRRM will flesh all that out in the books, but I may be a sweet summer child with that hope 😢 I will always be irritated with D&D for rushing Dany's descent to madness though. It could've been great TV but they wanted to move on
I also saw her realizing she wasn’t getting the same reception/welcome as other cities she conquered. No love from the people, etc. I believe that goes back to Tyrion trying to point out the innocent victims. She didn’t see that these were not SLAVES she was liberating. And I was one of the few that was NOT disappointed with the series… season 8 or even the series finale. I thought it had an ending I could get behind. It all made sense to me. But I did think they sped up Dany’s meltdown. I definitely caught on to the signs quickly but felt they could have stretched it a bit more.
Everyone was shocked when it actually happened, but ppl forget the Targaryan grip on power from the beginning was burning cities to the ground including killing thousands of civilians. But we love the family and stan the dragons but thats what they do, including Aegon the Conqueror. And Dani in season 2 when she got to Qarth said "when my dragons are grown, i'll burn cities to the ground and lay armies to waste" and we cheered her in season 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and now in 8 she does it and almost everyone was like 'where did this come from?'. She been saying it, why you surprised?
@@thomasluke-wp8or harrenhal was actually exactly what k was thinking. Coz there were cooks, cleaners, servants, non military personnel who all burned inside too. But if I remember right it wasn’t the only castle he burned and every castle has ppl who aren’t army. So really, burning any castle to the ground is killing civilians along with the enemy and the enemy’s army
@@menonra30 other than harrenhal which was kinda necessary for fear and also as a show of force, the only castles I can think that he burned were dornish. Considering some of the things the dornish did even after the conquest I feel the losses were justifiable
@@thomasluke-wp8or I don’t remember. Gotta read fire and blood again. Also no spoilers for HOTD. I’m talking only of Targaryen history and Aegon specifically at this point. Maegor did it too but he actually was a dick
Daenerys's "turn" had been pretty strongly indicated throughout the series, though, until this point, most of her most vicious instincts had been (relatively) kept in check. But it's also something audiences should have been well braced for: what happens when your "hero" or "saviour" figure becomes, quite possibly, even worse than the monster you had before. It's an oft-repeated thing: the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, 1930s-40s Germany, etc., etc. It's the same principle as never meeting your heroes: always beware your saviours, because their righteous fury was always something to be worried about in the first place.
I might be in the minority but I actually liked Daenerys' flip. Sure I understand the criticism that it was rushed a bit, but it goes all the way back to the first season when we first heard the saying: "Everytime a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin." There were hints of her being a bit mad all throughout the series, but it was all a matter of perspective. We didn't mind her killing all the masters or anyone who defied her because we were still rooting for her. I wouldn't say either that she seemed pure evil at the end. She was going through grief for her best friend and one of the stages of grief is anger. Adding it all up, it may not be out of character for her to do what she did.
My only issue with this is that certain characters like Jon and Ned are regarded as noble and true even though they similarly executed those they believed guilty of wrongdoing. We are supposed to flag Dany as morally questionable for taking down slavers yet Ned’s first act is to execute a man trying to warn others of the series’ apocalyptic threat, and Jon gives Olly the same sentence as adults who undoubtedly pressured him into the conspiracy to eliminate Jon. I do love that Daenerys’s arc suggests that madness doesn’t come from nowhere but is rooted in trauma, though.
@@b-six-twelve Totally agree that it's rooted in trauma. My point was actually that to me it isn't as far fetched as many people feel it is. As far as I've been able to tell people mainly hate the ending of Game of Thrones because it was rushed ( which I can agree too) and because her turn wasn't done well. I believe that the turn was done beautifully. In the short term she is still grieving the death of her best friend and in that episode we see her turnto the anger stage of that whole process. Also as you also stated this turn isn't uncharacteristic for people in power in the GoT universe. As you said Jon Snow has a strong morale compass that even tells him to kill a child because he took an oath and broke it. So killing Dany isn't a stretch for him either, especially when you take into account what she said in her speech to the Dothraki about 'freeing' everyone from oppression. In the end I think we agree on most of it, just not the point that I tried to make about her being the worst example of it. The reason I say that is the fact that, yes Jon and Ned killed people because they felt it was right, but neither of them slaughtered cities out of anger.
@@asoka9212 I am definitely more open to her turn that most. I think from a writing perspective they could’ve potentially ironed out a few kinks by positioning the losses closer together. Imagine if she lost Rhaegal and Missandei in the assault on King’s Landing rather than spaced out before, then being notified of Tyrion’s betrayal onscreen instead of revealing it after to retroactively explain her snap. Might make her turn in the moment more believable. Though the more sympathetic they make Dany, I suppose the more difficult it is to support Jon in taking her out. Definitely agree this ending was set in motion for her from the beginning. George RR Martin wants to bait you into thinking of Dany and Jon as Arwen and Aragorn when in reality they’re Gollum and Frodo.
Plenty of comments on Dany already so I'm just gonna say the scene with Tyrion and Jamie had me all in my feels, man. Even though it's what Jamie's dumb ass deserved, my heart broke for Tyrion losing the only person who truly loved him.
lmao, it was snow because Daenerys was at The Wall and her story early on was always in the desert so it’s snowing in her vision to contrast that… also D&D writing makes no sense, they could never pull off this type of foreshadowing unless GRRM spoon fed it to him. 😂
@@nym_r0ddAsh is totally in step with GRRM’s writing, though, because one of the recurring themes is that prophecies do end up being true, just not in the most obvious, surface-level interpretation. So it would make sense for the snow not to be snow or for the snow to have multiple meanings.
I was very satisfied with Jaime and Cersei’s meaningless deaths. Neither one deserved some valiant or heroic death. Cersei deserved to die cowering as the Red Keep came down on her. I wasn’t upset at all that Jaime died. I enjoyed your reaction and commentary. Are you thinking about doing House of the Dragon? You won’t be disappointed!
Yes, he said he’s doing HOTD next. And I fully agree. After all the crap Cersei pulled with that horrible smirk on her face, it felt good to see her cowering at the end. And as for Jaime… we’ll let just say, if you keep relapsing, it’ll eventually cost you. And he sure didn’t care in the end.
Did Dany really change? Is it really a surprise that she went all mad queen? Was it truly out of character? Throughout the entire series, Dany wanted blood and fire. She wanted to crush and utterly destroy her enemies. She listened to those around her though and tempered that side of herself. Jorah, Ser Barristan, Tyrion. They all at times kept her from committing what would have been horrific events. The "change in her" I think, came because she wasn't getting love in Westros like she did in Essos. Without her, Winterfell and everyone else would have succumbed to the White Walkers. What thanks did she get? None, no love at all. Only 2 dead dragons. They cut off Messandai's head. She expected the people to fight for her, or instantly be on her side the moment she stepped foot in dragonstone. Because that is what happened everywhere she went in Essos. So in the end, she simply let her true nature loose. Because she wasn't getting the love and thanks she wanted and let's be honest, deserved, she became the dragon she always was. The scene in 8-4 were Jon is getting all the praise for riding a dragon. Dany sullen behind him alone. Tyrion laughing and smiling with Jamie. Even ep. 2, Theon, who Dany agreed to give the iron islands to his sister, came back and right in front of Dany pledged to fight for winterfell and Sansa. These scenes set the tone, at least for me. I won't say I saw it coming, but after a rewatch it makes more sense to me.
@nanuwasgeht I don't think it was I think it was her character the entire show. Others just help keep it in check. Once they couldn't, we saw what she was the whole time.
Dany snapped. Her father was the Mad King, her brother was evil, she was always going to eventually snap. Once Cersei beheaded Missandei in front of her and Jon’s parentage came to light, everything she dreamed of was disappearing before her very eyes. This is George R.R. Martin’s story, it’s HIS ending. That’s what’s missed, he was a producer on the show and oversaw the writing to the end. Dany’s crazy has been building, everyone just missed it. People wanted her to be the angel out of evil, instead she was just like the rest of her family.
Actually, there are multiple interviews with George where he explains that he wasn't working on the show since season 4. After that, David and Dan stopped consulting him and he had no influence whatsoever. He litteraly said that this was AN ending to his story but not THE ending. Daenerys may still go mad in the books but in a different way or, at least, in a way that would actually make sense.
@@mawiaaaaIn Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon, George says he stopped working on the show so he could focus on his books. He met with D&D in 2013 and had a 3 day discussion about the end of the story. Dan Weiss said “We didn’t know the details until after the 3rd season, but Danys trajectory was implicit in the first season”, implying that George told them about Danys ending in the meeting (which happened after season 3).
@@kevinwendellcrumb1802 yes and he also said on his blog that he is a gardener. He always had the idea of how the story will end and I have no doubt that he told the ending to D&D. But as he writes, he has some ideas, than other ideas. He writes and rewrites and likes to see where the idea will lead him. As I said, Dany may have the same ending in the show that in the books. We have to wait and see ☺️
Varys could see Dany starting to lose it and become like her father The Mad King. He lived thru that nightmare and didn’t want the people to suffer again because of a tyrant ruler. He didn’t want Kings Landing to have to suffer yet it ended up happening. Dany slaughtered all of the citizens she supposedly came to save and free because she was angry at Cersei. Instead of going straight for Cersei and burning her ass alive, she instead destroyed everyone. To be honest, Dany has always been a bit nuts but I wanted to see Cersei die screaming, which is what she deserved. but Daenerys decided to not directly end her but to let bricks bury her ass wrapped in Jamie’s arms. Ugh!
What I didn’t like that they were doing was trying to make me feel bad for her. She literally is saying that she wants her baby to live but her arrogance got the best of her like you’re not about to cry down here wanting to live because you know you’re about to die. When you had a dozen chances. Saw the dragons with your own eyes saw the zombies with your with your own eyes. You’re chose selfishness, then use your people as a shield which Daenerys knew and that’s why she didn’t let it slide one because she was upset and to because yeah they did make her start going a bit crazy.
I think the story George RR Martin created is brilliant. We categorize Daenyrys as “good,” so we excuse her not-so-good behaviors. Go back and watch…she and Cersei actually commit many similar acts. We just feel more sympathy for Cersei’s victims. I encourage you to go back and watch. Dany has committed many merciless, cruel acts all along. None of this is out of character for her, really. It just goes against our categorization of her. A big theme of the show is the Stark saying, he who passes the sentence should swing the sword. To feel the weight of taking a life. She has crucified people, burned them alive…Should anyone have the power of a dragon? Of a ruthless Dothraki army? I thought it was out of nowhere until I rewatched the series, and realized it was there all along. She had good intentions, but her actions have not always been merciful or good.
I am certainly in the minority but I like the episode. Maybe it's because I was never a fan of the Dragon Queen and expected her to be the Mad Queen. But I don't mean Mad in the sense of insane but that she's very angry. She always had a revengeful side to her and here it showed again. If something doesn't work like she wanted she used fire and death to make her Point
I'm fine giving Euron the title of King (even the show version) personally, the Iron Islands were seceded from the seven kingdoms and he won the Kings Moot fair and square.
Tyrion MVP of traitors.....He went to Essos to help Daenerys to rule but all he did was stopping her to get Westeros because he didn't want his family to die. He betrayed Daenerys many times and he's still alive
If you remember durning the Battle of the Blackwater episode Davos says "I've never known bells to mean surrender". So not sure why exactly Tyrion used bells to surrender.
Every time a Targaryen is born the Gods flip a coin. One side for greatness the other side for madness. This ending was in her vision she saw in season 2. She was alone in a throne room in ruins and was brought back before she could sit the throne. I truly believe GRRM planed an ending similar since no prophecies he wrote in the books are random.
You know your reaction reminds me of the scene of Tyrion and Jaime in season 4 when Tyrion was relating the story of the simpleton killing the beetles. He kept wondering "Why?" What was the point of killing them? He couldn't figure it out. Was there a reason for it? Daenerys" actions were a reflection of this senseless killings foreshadow in this conversation.
I liked every season of the show. I also enjoy complicated characters who make horrible choices. Dany also slaughtered the entire Kings landing because she wants to start the world over and she does not care. She thinks she is in the right to choose to destroy this world to start over with her as the complete ruler.
Hi. Just wanted to leave part of what I commented here, because I rarely come across people who see it this way and I just thought we might have an interesting conversation. Hope that's okay. I'd also add as a note that in the original comment I mention before, that a big part of what I felt was missing was seeing some inner conflict all this time. Anyway, here it is: We didn't need them to be obvious about it, but they did need to do more than some big red flags every once in a while. We needed the subtlety of the best character development. We needed the seed of doubt to balance the hype at times. Because the hype was insane. Characters in this show idolize her, and the show (mostly) pushed her audience to do the same. Part of that is amazing. The exploration of morality in this story (probably even more so in the books) is one of if not THE best part. The characters' morality, yes, but also ours as the audience. Whose side are we on? How far are we gonna go to defend these people's actions? What are we willing to look past? They did not weave in the insanity or instability or whatever. They had more than a few moments where a lot of us were a bit like "um... wait what?", but because of all the hype, because of this show presenting her as *purely* good the rest of the time we rationalized it, said she was kidding, said they deserved it, whatever. Which would be fascinating, if it was well executed and more intentional. Another big part of this show's exploration of morality, I think, is this idea that no one is purely good or evil. And that is something that I think the show could've executed better. Mostly regarding Daenerys, but also regarding the Starks. I don't think (based on a lot of things) they were originally intended to be pure good or pure honor. On a more shallow note, this is also why it has always annoyed the fuck out of me to see people idolize Daenerys, since the start. Not because I saw this coming, I didn't, not until like season seven. But because the moment someone is put in a pedestal of ideals and divine-ness and just play idolatry, that's the moment I fucking run the other way. I try to balance it, to not go to the other extreme and see all evil and no good, but that's my first instinct.
@@tywinderbaum5283 'He who passes the sentence must swing the sword.' The show and the books warned you. They warned you from the start. Carefully consider everyone's moral actions or stray from this at your peril. Would you kill Mirri? Would you entomb Xaro? Would you enact mass crucifixions before even determining who is guilty and who is not? Would you kill Mossador, a hapless slave who was only following Dany's example? Would you watch a person being burned alive with a smile on your face? And so on, and so on. So many little, and not so little, moments in Dany's story. So many moral compromises. So much blood everywhere she went. They even recreated many of the shots of Dany from Nazi propaganda posters. Dany's cult of personality, i.e. to make the audience cheer for an in-retrospect-obvious villain for 7 and 2/3 seasons, will go down as one of the greatest achievement in the history of TV. It's the Milgram and Third Wave experiments all rolled into one and conducted on our television screens for the better part of a decade! And it was all FANTASTICALLY executed and COMPLETELY, 100% intentional! The vision in the House of the Undying all but spells it out.
I think I'm ok with Jon's ending. He never wanted to rule or be in charge, he didn't even want to be leader of the night's watch. He always felt most comfortable, happy, and free in the North with the freefolk. He got what he always wanted. Sure it's not what we wanted, I think we all wanted him on the throne, but he ended up happy.
I knew at the end of S1E1 who would end up on the Iron Throne, at least according to the series (GRRM may change that if he ever finishes anything again, esp. after the response to S8). It was all there in that episode's structure, more so than any dialogue or plot: the structure said it all. Sure, the show threw up tons of misdirects in the meantime, but if you remembered how that first episode went, you KNEW where it had to go. Whether or not you think the show did that well is up to you, of course, and though show definitely faltered with a lot of that part of the storytelling along the way. But storytelling like this usually wants to find its end in its beginning, and GOT definitely did that, whether well or badly.
Stannis, Daeneris, just further examples of power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolute. &: If you want to see Stannis in a very humane role, try God on Trial, a masterclass movie, absolutely amazing. 👍 ^Olenna: Are you sheep? No, you're a dragon! Be a dragon!
It upsets me that they didn’t make this clearer given it was one of the more interesting mysteries to me, but this episode makes it pretty credible to say that when the wizard tossed Varys’s parts into the flames, the voice he heard calling out from them was Daenerys’s “Dracarys.”
Jon killed the guys in the Night's Watch for killing him and you didn't have any problem with that but Daenerys killed Varys for treason (and he was trying to poisoned her too!) and then you have a problem about it?! She lost 2 dragons, Jorah and Missandei, she was betrayed by Varys and the man she fell in love and her Hand was failling her since they've arrived in Westeros, I think she had all the right to burn King's Landing to the ground, I would've done worst for even less.
In my opinion Dany burning the city was completely justified, they didn't build it up well, but after all she lost I'd snap too. Plus she set it up in season 2 in Qarth when she told the spymaster that she'd take what is hers with fire and blood or when she threatened the thirteen outside the gates of Qarth by telling them that she'd burn cities to the ground when her dragons are large enough.
The "innocent" people of Kings Landing?? That's funny. Don't forget those same "innocent" people were cheering the execution of her best friend.. the same "innocent" people who cheered and laughed during Ned's beheading. Burn it all down!!!
Burn it all down??? What a flippantly despicable attitude. Burn down the children as well? Were they cheering for Ned's execution before they were even born. And let's not forget that the people at the Sept were literally being told by Ned himself that he was a traitor to their king. This is exactly the kind of petty tribalism that the show is criticizing. Good thing you're nowhere near a position of any power.
@@NewYorkFloridaMan Damn right I'm invested, having had to endure bombs falling on me at the hands of idiots who thought war was like a video game and a populace willing to buy into its government's propaganda for going to war at the drop of a hat.
“Every time a Targaryen is born, the Gods toss a coin, and the world holds its breath.” “There’s a beast in every man, and it stirs when you put a sword in his hand.”
No question, Dani's actions are indefensible but IMO not out of character given her propensity for violent solutions and how traumatized and isolated she had become. Ultimately, IMO it was simply rage and anger which she gave in to and which overtook her & blinded her to all reason. And yes, her actions are a complete betrayal of Jon, Tyrion, and the audience who followed her. The tragedy in this episode is extreme, especially since it is caused by someone we wanted to call an "hero", that the overall effect is more numbing than emotional.
I’m curious as to what you’ll say about Dany after the finale. Right now, hearing you say that the Dany from this episode is ‘bad writing’ sounds like you have completely forgotten about the Dany from previous seasons. How many times have we heard that Targaryans have a ‘mad gene’ (flip of the coin)? How many times has Dany threatened to burn a city to the ground and lay waste to the citizens? How many times have her advisors (Jorah, Tyrion, Selmy, and even Jon) had to talk her down from the ledge when she was really to burn and kill. Dany has always had this in her. In fact, it’s burning and killing has always been her first impulse. But until now, she’s been held back from that by the better people around her. The writing this season was bad in the way that the story was played out. Everything was rushed and the dialogue was pretty bad. But her character has really not changed from the beginning…it evolved into exactly who she was capable of being, and who she was meant to be.
Yes! You are so right bro. And it's so sad that most people didn't understand it. I personally like her character, especially her story. There's something good and soft in her, like she wanted to free all the slaves and it wasn't fake, it was sincere. She didn't have to do it, but she did. But life is hard and unfair, and the mad gene was slowly capturing her mind till this event where she finally loses control. Her story arc is probably the saddest one. It's also a little bit funny cuz i remember when she threatened to burn down Quarth everyone was like "yeah, ma queen is the boss" and when she actually burn down a city everyone was like "wtf, ma queen would never do that". Ridiculous...
23:05 i've never seen anyone mention this but was the wildfire cersei's plan before dany started burning the city? to lure dany's troops into the city then blow them up?
Why is she killing civilians? For the same reason Greyworm is slaughtering surrendering soldiers. It's called the madness of war and it must be remembered that Missandei, a person whom both Greyworm and Dani loved, called on it to happen with her last breath when she cried Dracarys. When the bells rang, Dani's rage at the people, having not freed themselves as the slaves did and thus, in her mind, were complicit led to her having a psychotic break; thus the attack on the city.
So my thinking about her actions is, that gentically they are probably fucked up in the head and all she needed was a trigger, because in the end she was just like her dad. She lost everything and clearly went into a depressive state and lost her mind. I don't think it was executed very well but I get it.
They spent the whole series foreshadowing her mad queen arc. She stands by without any feeling as her only sibling and only living relative she is aware of is murdered in front of her. She burned Miri, the witch, even though Miri did everything Dany asked of her. She killed the Khals in the holy city even though she had the opportunity to escape without hurting anyone. She uprooted the entire culture of the Dothraki in that one moment. She crucified the masters even though some of them were good men, as evidenced by the son of one and the former slave of another. She tricked the masters of the unsullied into a deal just to kill them all. She told the 13 at Quarth that when her dragons were grown they would burn cities and lay waste to armies. That she would take what was hers with fire and blood. That she would do it to them first if they didn't let her in. They were protecting their city from the Dothraki because the Dothraki were raiders and enslavers. She killed the Tarleys when she didn't have to, she could have locked them up like Tyrion suggested. Dany used the idea of freeing people to further her power. Inspiring enslaved people to free themselves and taking the credit. She's a tyrant and always has been. Tyrants are good to people when being good to them is beneficial. In reality we as viewers were duped into supporting a tyrant because she killed people we didn't like or understand, regardless if they were correct. When Dany lost Jorah and Missandei she lost the voices of reason she had acquired along with most of the people who loved her. She never agrees to Tyrion when he asks her to wait for the Bells to avoid slaughter. She went there fully knowing she was going to destroy the city, it's why Greyworm was not surprised and was ready. By Cersei using the small folk as a shield she automatically made them enemies in Danys eyes. They were no longer innocents, they were an obstacle. I recommend rewatching the series with all the knowledge you have now and you'll start to notice things that you didn't before.
she snaped-thats the only explanation. the writers needed a shock value moment to probably justify jons action later next episode. otherwise he would had no reason to kill her. also she stated that she didn't got the love she expected from the people which was shown last episode- she felt excluded and knew she wouldnt gain the love of the people anyway since jon is the rightful air. also she took the advice not attacking kings landing for too long and kept loosing everything. olena said be a dragon! misandei said dracarys! with the rushing it makes no sense. with more episodes seeing her slowly turning mad it would had worked better.
Yes, you can and absolutely should blame her-- because, as you say, "the citizens didn't deserve this." Forget the "Mad Queen" temptation: she knew exactly what she was doing and acted with calculated, sociopathic fury. Sure, you can feel for what led her to that (losing those she loved and fear of betrayal, rejection and usurpation by figures like Jon and Varys), but in acting after the bells had gone, she revealed the vicious, vindictive, narcissistic tyrant we'd seen glimpses of previously.
Daenerys s4: locks up her dragons because one of them accidentaly killed a child Darnerys s8: oh so this entire city with innocent children has surrendered to me? Womp womp😹
People betrayed Dany left right and center this season. She had it exactly right. Varys tried to poison her, and he was told by Tyrion, who was told by Sansa, who was told by Jon. She was absolutely justified. Does it make her good? Fuck no. But she never was. She was always a conqueror. We saw it from season one. Fire and blood. Anyone who disagreed with her or opposed her, she gave them exactly what she promised them. And I will support THAT until im blue in the face. I don't give a fuck who she killed. Varys deserved it (and he was one of my favorite characters) & kings landing was a cess pool. Cersei used those people against her exactly like Dany said she was doing. If they had to die for Dany to get what she earned... so be it. She was ALWAYS this exact person. So watching people turn on her in season 8 is just infuriating. Yall didnt watch this show with open eyes.
Thank you! That was my reaction exactly. It would have made sense for me if she had destroyed the whole city right after Missandei was killed - that would have been impulsive, and Missandei would have triggered this with her "dracarys". But in this situation? Where she basically had won? The city surrendered! She took it with so little efford. I still don't get, why she didn't just fly over to the red keep and destroy it - that would still have been a lot of innocents to die because of all the people seeking refuge inside the walls. The way they did it was just so stupid. I wasn't shocked as in "oh my god, I didn't see that coming! So shocking!" (like with the red weeding and stuff like that) but it was more like "wtf? what just happened? I'm confused ..." - felt like they suddenly invented bombs or space ships or something like that. just absurd!
She's a mad queen. She has been since season 1. She loves burning human beings. She burnt her brother. She burnt maesters of Mereen. She burnt Sam's father and Sam's brother. She burnt Varys. She burnt the necromancer. She burnt whites. She tried burning the undead king. She burnt Lannister's soldiers. She burnt civilians. And the list goes on and on.
i saw Ramsey Bolton in stratford the other day...and thought of everyone here re watching, (i didnt bother him ..he was having a chat with what looked like his parents..bless)
It's not THIS story that is the problem, it's all the other stories you've read and experienced that have shaped and conditioned your brain. Dany's sacking makes perfect sense. It's vengeance, pure and simple. A message to anyone who ever dare refuse to obey her again. What DOESN'T make sense is you believing Dany is not a vengeful person, even though we've seen her be vengeful on countless occasions. What doesn't make sense is you believing she cares about the innocents even though she neglected them in Mereen and then abandoned them to go play Napoleon in Westeros. What doesn't make sense is you believing 'Daenerys was never that type of person.' Dany wasn't 'secretly' evil. She was OPENLY evil. 'Those who will harm you will die screaming', 'I will burn cities', 'If I give everyone what they deserve I'll have no one left to rule', 'They can live in my new world, or die in the old one,' 'Maybe you're all innocent, maybe not. I'll let my dragons decide....' Is that the kind of sh*t a good person says? Does a good person stare at the sight of people being burned alive with an orgasm face? Does a good person enthusiastically identify with a band of murderers and rapists, long after there is any compulsion to do so? The brilliance of this show is that all this evil was wrapped up in 'good guy' tropes so that people wouldn't even notice it gradually ratchet up. They made millions of people root for a villain for 7 and 2/3 seasons! They created a real-life personality cult. And people are still pissed because of it.
I’m sure I’m not the only one who agrees with you and I will openly admit to friends and family that GOT is my favorite show and I rewatch it at least once a year. I notice so many things that I never did the first time. I think you are right about people hating that dany was really a villain all along and they were just tricked and so now they are mad. I actually saw it when she burned Miri maz durr alive. I was like sure she is a witch and tricked you but she was actually acting in the best interest of the world. And once she got to mereen and then crucified randomly selected masters without holding trials or questioning the slaves and completely ignoring ser barristan I knew exactly what she was
I love your comment, and I truly believed that if this same event would have being shot in a "hero's perspective", seeing Daenerys burning the city and showing only the villanous soldiers diying with epic music, everyone would have said "Yes, Dany, kill them all! They are shitty people!". But they decided to show "the other side", so Daenerys is the villain. They could have done the same in the Battle of the Blackwater (Stanis' soldier would have sacked the city and raped the women, too), because that's how war works, but they don't usually show that in movies or shows.
@@sefirotsgame I think not showing what sacking a city is like until this moment was a big mistake. People like moviefusion don’t understand what that really means, so when he saw it here it was so surprising. I love the choice to never have a close up on Dany after she starts burning the city. All we see is the dragon.
@@kevinwendellcrumb1802 Well, they talked about it, and showed things like Stark men being cruel or Lanister soldier being completely inocent. They showed that Daenerys murdered inocent people when crucified the masters, and so on... They even showed the sacking with Dothracky (and Karl Drogo saying that he was going to do what we saw in this chapter when he would reach Westeros). But people are used to perfect hero stories where there a clear villains and clear heroes, and are unable to imagine the "heroes" doing bad things...
Show Daenerys and Book Daenerys are different. Even their personalities are different. Show Daenerys is emotionally unstable a lot of the times. Book Daenerys is more calm and patient.
Historically speaking, the civilians have not mattered during war, she could have avoided doing that and I wish she would have but the rest of these rulers have been more ruthless and evil than Dany, Can you imagine what they would have done if they had dragons? I feel like people are always hyper critical when a woman does something bad. You're forgetting how many people she has freed, what other rulers did that?
