Game Theory: Persona's LOST Shadow... FOUND! (Persona 4) 

I'm sorry. I screwed up with this one. In a few facts and details, certainly, but also in ways that I didn't expect when writing it. And I don't want things to be taken the wrong way, so please, let me clarify: First, the intro was not intended to make fun of or belittle the fanbase of Persona in any way, and I'm sorry if it came across as mean spirited. Being protective of a franchise isn't a bad thing. I know from doing episodes on franchises like Dark Souls that there are just fanbases who are more amenable to theorizing than others and by choosing this episode, no matter what I would say, it would make some people angry (even if the facts had all been straight, which again, some weren't). I wrote that intro trying to play up the joke that it was a video no one would like, and in the process, I created a self-fulfilling prophesy that offended people and I'm sorry about that. It's never my intent to offend people. Maybe poke fun of in a joking way or call out for bad behavior (some other RU-vidrs), but it's never my goal to offend a group of people for liking what they like -- I'm sorry if it came off that way. Second, I clearly didn't go deep enough or understand everything as clearly as I thought I did. As with the Phoenix Wright episode (another misjudgment on my part), I thought this game would function well-enough as a stand-alone title, but clearly there were added details in other games as well as supplemental content that I just didn't take into consideration. There were a few facts in this one that I either forgot to double check because I assumed I knew them off the top of my head (Elizabeth) or I could have explained better (Izanami). Again, I should have gone deeper, but time constraints and thinking I had covered all the necessary ground made me stop looking when clearly I should have kept digging. Third, sorry for being defensive. My life this past weekend was incredibly stressful and sad, so having a video receive a heavy backlash in the middle of it all was the last thing I needed, which resulted in me losing my head. Please remember that I receive hundreds of comments every day telling me how awful I am as a person and how I should die because I said X about Y character and that 99% of the time I let it run off me, but sometimes it just gets to you. This weekend was one of those times, so I ask you to forgive that brief saltiness. And lastly, regarding how I handle criticism, I want you to know that I'm listening. All the time. I read the comments, and yes, I don't respond a lot because when I have in the past, people have taken my responses the wrong way. Instead, I take your comments to heart and try to adjust the programming and scripts on the channel accordingly. Heck, this whole episode was in an effort to try and address some people who were tired of hearing about the same franchises over and over again. It's a bit of a Catch-22. My policy always was "Read the criticism and make changes to the series based on the feedback, but never directly call it out." That only prompted a lot of backlash of people saying "He doesn't acknowledge criticism." So, I've tried addressing negativity in a public way, but people criticized me for doing that too saying I was "bad at taking criticism" because I did that. It often feels like a lose-lose situation. Just know that I'm not writing this to be defensive, but to sincerely apologize for the mistakes in this video, the lack of clarity in some of the jokes, and to promise you that I will continue to work at getting better about all these issues. - MatPat

Broke: Teddie is Yu’s shadow Woke: Teddie is lucifer

For as much as I love Persona, it seems that MatPat needs to reach out to the truth with this one.

Yu doesn't have a shadow because A) he has nothing to hide B) his power was awoken by Izanami herself, and last but not least; C) Adachi functions as his narrative shadow

"Yu has no shadow" *Cries in Adachi*

Yu doesn't have a Shadow because he doesn't have anything to hide They said that in the game

I love how this whole "theory" falls apart the moment you realize that at the very end Izanami tells Yu that they gave him his powers, and because of that, he gets to skip all of the fighting your shadow thingie. Also Yu's arcana isn't The Fool, his inital Persona is, but since he has the power of the Wild Card, his arcana becomes whatever Persona's he's holding

It’s funny to analyze the velvet rooms because P5 is a prison because he feels repressed P3 is a moving elevator because he’s never settled anywhere. P4 is a limo because he’s baller and everyone loves him.

"Yu doesn't have a Shadow" Yeah, this means that you forget the True Ending.

> Says he researched the game a lot > Calls Margaret Elizabeth

>Says Elizabeth >Shows Margaret *T R I G G E R E D*

I waited to watch this theory until after I had finished the game... FOR THIS?!

With all this inaccurate info, I'm surprised he didn't think Mitsuo was the real killer

At first i thought it was a good theory until i played the game.

Welp, this was bound to happen sooner or later :p

1: the game says Yu has no shadow cuz he has nothing to hide, he represents the Fool arcana, which is basically a blank slate with infinite potential A *blank* slate There's nothing there How could he be hiding something when there's nothing there? 2: ur saying "Teddie's social link maxes out automatically so Teddie is Yu's shadow," but that logic would mean that Morgana would be Joker's shadow, which isn't even close to true

ive just started watching this and i can already tell that its gonna be a trainwreck because he says at the start "oh if i get things wrong its the storys fault not mine pls dont hate on me"

Persona Q actually explains the lack of shadow thing. The main protagonist from each game is referred to as the wild card. They don't confront their shadow in the same way their allies do but instead use personas to find their place. Wild cards are able to use many personas and people around them can only use the one that their shadows turned into. However in persona Q, the 3 and 4 cast meet and 2 wild cards are in the same place at the same time so it changes how the meta world works and everyone is able to use 2 persona (one for each wild card). Your theory does explain a lot of things and Teddy is 100% connected to Yu the same way Moana in P5 is a spirit guide for Joker, but I feel you either excluded evidence that didn't fit the theory or there were parts of the franchise you didn't know about. Persona is a ridiculously layered franchise after all and every spin off game is cannon.

Game Theory: Is Ryuji a phantom thief?

Omg did he just say “Igor and his assistant Elizabeth” WHAT THE HELL

Guess I'm a defensive hater for saying this. This entire video shows that mat hasn't even touched a persona game

how tf is ameno sagiri Adachis shadow XD ameno is a smller part of a fragmented god who is controlling the fog and making sure the plan to envelop the human world in fog works thats why when you initially beat adachi ameno takes over to ensure the plan woks.

I am thou,Thou art I..... Thou hast uncovered a new theory... It shall become the wings of inaccuracy that breaketh thy chains of rationality. With the birth of the MatPat Persona, I have obtained the winds of a bad theory that shall lead to criticism and backlash.

With more people getting into Persona now, this video is gonna get a lot more hate.

5:22 your tryna tell me Shrek is Yu’s shadow

7:42 *I think you wanted to say *Margaret*

Persona 4 face your fears Persona 5 *BLEED YOUR FACE OFF UNTIL IT ARRIVES*

Remember when matpat made theories on games he was interested in and not games that were popular at the moment?

I know this has been up for 2 years now........but I just gotta say, in addition to the other inaccuracies, having to gain the traits of the Star to progress to the World means nothing. The whole POINT of the tarot is that you start as the Fool, traverse through all the major arcana, and come out the other end as the World. Likewise, the protag has to meet and learn from all of the people embodying the arcana in the game and that's why being close to them makes him stronger. Yes, you can beat the game with just Teddie, but that doesn't make him more essential. The game heavily penalizes you for this and while you make it to the end, you are also the weakest version of yourself. Because you only have the one arcana. And links that are required to go up are nothing NEW. They are in 3 and 5 too and in both games, there are more than one of them. In addition to the other comments, just..........please play the game you are making a theory about. It's kinda the bare minimum effort. A lesson that, looking at your videos from this point, you learned.

And just for you persona and anime fans: Persona 5 the animation was released yesterday on crunchyroll (^o^)

7:43 That's Margaret not Elizabeth

"A fanbase that I have no doubt is sure to hate whatever I say in this episode _regardless of how much research I do_ " And _there's_ the irony. HOO BOY

Lmao if he's looking for Yu's Shadow, I'm surprised he didn't even look toward Magatsu-Izanagi

Have you not played the game? It literally is said in the game that Izanami awakened Yu's persona by shaking his hand, thus he never had to face his shadow.

I hate to be that guy, but there are a lot of errors with this. Firstly: "his assistant Elizabeth"... Wrong game Mat, that was Persona 3. In Persona 4 the assistant is Margaret. Also, the "shadows" of Namatame and Adachi you talked about are actually the fragments of Izanami that she placed inside of them - Yu's fragment is Marie - another person who may enter the velvet room. They are not shadows, especially as we see Namatame's shadow AFTER we beat Kunino-sagiri. We never see or fight Adachi's shadow as he already has a persona when we fight him. Both Adachi and Yu awakened to their persona to survive in the TV world as a result of Izanami. (Namatame would have as well, but he never had the chance to do so). As a Persona can never return to being a shadow, it is impossible for their shadows to exist as long as the user as a Persona. (The only exception is with the robot Labrys - as a copy of her shadow was saved to her hard-drive.) Because of this, Teddie could not remain if he was Yu's shadow as he would become Izanagi. Finally - we DO see Yus shadow. In the final episode of the Anime, we see that Yu DOES have a shadow as he is hounded by it during the Margaret fight until he accepts it. The reason why Yu does not normally face his shadow is that Izanami awakened it for him. As soon as Izanami wanted him dead in the anime, he lost it and had to face his own shadow properly to get it back. I'm sorry Mat, but you really didn't do the research on this one. Granted, for a series so full of lore, it is easy to miss facts, and the hypothesis is rather interesting - but it is rather full of holes and you made several mistakes - both relevant and non relevant.

bold of you to assume that I stopped playing persona 4

Something tells me this guy never played P4 at all... That or he never even played beyond December 3rd. Though I'm pretty sure it's the former.

GAME THEORY: IS JOKER A PLANE

SPOILERS Although you watched the video so... If you go off the Anime. Yu basically does have a shadow and faces it at the very end. (Not sure about Golden). During the anime it's hinted that Yu does has his own problems. Basically he doesn't want to be alone. It showed that problem in the anime during the fight with Shadow Mitsuo. Yu got trapped in a nightmare and couldn't summon his Persona cause he had no bonds. Till his friends snapped him out of it. Later at the end of the anime the same problem flares up again but this time he's trapped in the TV world repeating the same scene with all his friends over and over again till Margaret shows up to snap him out of his trance. Yu faces his shadow who basically says that he didn't care what it took he just didn't want to be alone anymore. But you could write off the anime as "We had to give the blank slate character some personality and conflict." Teddie essentially was in the Velvet room cause Yu subconsciously called out to him when he went missing. After Teddie had his crisis and dealt with it, he realized that he doesn't belong there. Then Igor pops up and says "Shadows...have no place here." Teddie also states that he's been in the TV World for a long time. Even to the point that he remembers what it truly looks like. Persona and Shadow are 2 sides of the same coin as pretty much established in the game. So Teddie can't be Yu's Shadow. Cause he got Izanagi. To further this if you wanna consider Persona 4 Arena cannon. Hi-No Kagutsuchi was basically trying to make everyone's Persona's back into shadows again for his own purposes. The shape of the Velvet Room is a representation of the person's heart. Minato's was an Elevator which can be considered his journey through Tarturus with SEES or his journey to find the answer to life. Ren/Akira's is a prison to represent that his life is basically a prison thanks to the rules of society. Yu's is a car driving through the fog to represent that he's journeying but doesn't know the destination.

well guys, this was not a reach out to the truth moment.

Instead of doing "so much research", why didn't you just play the game...?

1) When Izanami gifted Yu and Adachi their Personas, they both received a variant of Izanagi. Namatame did not get a Persona; only the ability to travel into the TV world (which makes him different from Adachi and Yu and thus should not be grouped with them). 2) Marie is also able to enter the Velvet Room 3) Igor's assistant in Persona 4 is called Margaret, not Elizabeth (just a minor thing) 4) When you start the path to complete the true ending you get the new social link: Judgement (The Seekers of Truth). This social link, along with Teddie's, is also story based and impossible not to max out (assuming you continue to follow the path to the true ending). 5) Going by the logic of Yu's shadow becoming a separate entity, the same should have happened to Adachi's shadow, which it clearly didn't. 6) The shadows turn into the Personas, meaning that Izanagi is Yu's shadow. You can't have a Persona and a shadow at the same time. Yu's shadow turned into his Persona because it got forced that way by Izanami. The only way Yu is different from the other characters is because he never actually had to confront his shadow; it just sort of happened on its own. Please correct me on anything I got wrong.

7:43 that is not Elizabeth. In Persona 4 the assistant of Igor is Margaret.

"No matter how much reaserch I do" Yeah... What research?

Me: "click the video" -14:30-- minutes later- Me: "It's time for all-out attack!"

You forgot Marie can enter the velvet room also

Wait MatPat is covering PERSONA???? Oh lord, good luck dude, u better hope the people have mercy

For once, and probably only time, I seriously doubt MatPat on this. He obviously didn't play the actual game, probably just read a very short summary :/

MatPat: "I wonder how many miles a gallon morgana gets?"

1) We did see Yu's shadow, it was in the True Ending OVA 2) That's Margaret, not her little sister Elizabeth. 3) Marie is also in the Velvet room, in the Golden version.

When I heard that 2008 was a decade ago, I thought “that can’t be possible”, than I thought about it and my life has changed a lot

I think the entire “where is Yu’s shadow?” segment can be boiled down to (in my mind) Yu has already accepted his shadow, the most hated part of himself, before ever meeting it not in the TV world but subconsciously.

the fact he called margaret elizabeth had me laughing. and the anime explains pretty much all of this in a different way, and you should watch it to the end, matpat! im not spoiling though, its a damn good anime and game.

As a Personna fan. I wanted to say that. I do not hate you for this. It's just a theory afterall.

GAME THEORY: Goro is Joker's shadow!

He's practically casting rakukaja (uping his defense) at the start of the video. 😂

8:08 hold up, we’ve seen another person in the velvet room in p4, being Margaret’s(igors assistant) assistant. And yes, the game did pull the “the assistant has an assistant” game trope

No offense but there's loads of misinformation in this. Perhaps the biggest one being Ameno-sagiri is not Adachi's shadow. Adachi didn't have a shadow, and it's confirmed in game that Adachi and Yu are counterparts (both awakened to Izanagi). I think it's an interesting idea, Teddie being Yu's shadow, especially with his affection towards Nanako. However, I'm not sure the evidence in game really supports it.

Igor and his asistant ELIZABETH

With the release of Persona 4 Golden for the PC I've decided to revisit this theory, and I found out a bit of controversy while searching for it... Re-watched the video, watched those response/reaction videos as well, and since I have played the game to a certain point I've came to my own conclusion. From your pinned comment i believe you did the same at some point, and probably already fixed that (since this video is 2 years old) but I'll try to add something constructive because i love your content and follow all of your 4 channels (soon to be 5). The point of the theories is to generate discussion, and not to be the "truth" that shall never be questioned. Poking holes on your theories, if any, is engaging as much as expanding on it, so you should not be afraid of that. It's by poking holes that we adjust and try to find a better, more consistent theory about a topic. That being said, I believe you should tone down your internet "Persona" a little bit, as he is a lot confident on it's research and claims it's theories to be truth (which they can be not) and sound very condescending. Best case scenario it comes as misinformation (which is something I believe you're proudly against of) and worst case it's just offensive to those who spend hundreds if not thousands of hours in a given franchise. I would like to see in the future a more humble Matpat that asks if there's something wrong with his theories, or if he's missing some detail, idk; keeping the community engaged while also giving an opportunity for a reply to said theory which keeps new content going. It's just a shame that the only franchise you're willing to make a second or third video trying to create a better theory is FNAF, instead of those lore-packet games that more people like and are invested into like Zelda or Persona. I hope this gets to your eyes and you all stay safe, Matthew & theorist team.

Next Theory: Is Stupei Iori Ace Defective a Velvet Room attendant

>does a theory on p4 >calls margaret elizabeth

“Why the fork did you chose this game to do a theory on?” I know why Because it is by far easier then Part 3 of Final FNaF theory

Broke: teddies Yu’s shadow Woke: Maries Yu’s shadow

Hey...ya know there’s a fighting game with yu’s shadow

Matpat I would hate to correct you but you showed a picture of Margaret and said it was Elizabeth, Elizabeth is the Velvet Room attendant from Persona 3 Margaret was in charge of the room in Persona 4

Theory BUSTED! and here's why: 1) Plot in game! 2) In the anime, that I have watched, Yu gains his persona by shaking the Finale Boss' hand. 3) Still in the anime, Yu meets his Shadow while fighting Margaret

Game Theory: Yu is actually Jokers grandma so he’s actually a girl and had a husband than became jokers grandma

A friendly suggestion: If you do go at the franchise again, read up on Jungian psychoanalytics. It helps fill a lot of what many see as contradictions.

this would make sense if not for a few problems, I would like to point out a few of these holes in this theory: 1. Yu's Velvet Room Attendant is Margaret, not Elizabeth. Elizabeth was Makoto's attendant in Persona 3. 2. Nametame and Adachi don't merge with their shadows, but are actually possessed by two major fragments of Izanami; Ame-no-Sagiri and Kuni-no-Sagiri. 3. Yu DOES actually face his shadow during a secret/optional boss fight with Margaret. a non-violent shadow that appears on a bunch of TV screens. which Yu does immediately acknowledge as part of himself. 4. Persona 4 Golden, Persona 4 the animation and Persona 4 the Golden Animation fix some major lore holes. 5. this is not the first time this sort of theory has appeared, first one i have seen saying that Teddie is the disconnected shadow of Yu's childhood innocence, something he's lost connection to for quite some time thus allowing his shadow to gain a sense of self but also explaining Teddies lack of memories, and lore wise Teddie is not the first time a shadow has become self aware and sentient. a few other cases under different circumstances there have been "Shadow selves" appearing. whether caused by rumor becoming reality such as in persona 2 with the shadow selves of the party, or a powerful fragment of a greater entity becoming self aware, Such as Ryoji Mochizuki in Persona 3, a shadow representing "Death Arcana" becoming self aware. a decently crafted theory when taking the tarot into account, but there are still some holes even in your research for the game

That awkward moment when Margaret is called Elizabeth.

lets forget teddy has a persona

"If teddie is Yu's shadow, then who faced Yu near the ending of the anime with those stacks of TV with Yu's face all over it?" Me, who only watched the animation because i cant afford ps2 :(

Fuse Personae: Stupei: Ace Defective + Shuji Ikutsuki = MatPat Skills: Disproven Theory: Deals unsubscribe to all foes Fake Evidence: Deals facepalm to all foes Misplacing names: Inflicts rage on all foes Weaknesses: Common sense

That intro is 100% true and yes, I just need to point out that Adachi never fused with his Shadow. Ameno Sagiri is not a Shadow, it's a god that answers to human desires, all the stuff happening in the midnight channel made people want to simply leave in peace, oblivious from the truth, so he just went "Oh, humanity wants that, then I'll grant their wish!" The reason why you got a Persona was because Izanami gave it to him, the handshake at the start of the game is the trigger that gives him his Persona and the powers to enter the Midnight Channel, same with Adachi, wich is why Adachi basically gets the same Persona as Yu. It's also worth mentioning that the anime actually gave Yu a Shadow. So while it was entertaining, this theory doesn't hold much water.

8:01 Marie: Am I a joke to you?

Can't wait for the inevitable and inaccurate persona 5 theory

Except...that's just wrong. Yu's shadow is Izanagi, forcibly awaken by Izanami so he didn't have to face himself. Teddie confirmed that he wasn't Yu's shadow anyway.

You DO realize that this theory is immediately shot down by an in-game plot point explaining why Yu had a Persona, right...?

Regardless of the inaccuracy this is a good time to just say that everyone should go back and play persona 4

when your entire theory can be clearly and easily disproved by things main characters tell you in the games story

Namatame and Adachi didn't have shadows their "shadows" were Kunino Sagiri and Ameno Sagiri who were forms of Izanami who gave them the gift to travel into the tv

Game Theory: Is Morgana Yaldabaoth?

Actually in Persona 4 the Animation Yu meets his shadow during one of the final battles when he fights against Margaret and **Spoiler coming up** His shadow self expresses how he doesn't want to leave the town and his friends (Persona Protags and all their 1 year only rules), which ultimately he accepts to fully unleash his persona's power

MatPat: The World Me: ZA WARUDO

I don't think that the _Persona_ fanbase will get mad at all. I remember when Persona used to be obscure and that every Persona fan was ecstatic to hear how popular it was getting when _Persona 5_ was announced/released. Persona used to be a niche franchise, we appreciate the publicity.

I enjoy game theory but, MatPat do a video over games you have some genuine interest in. The Persona series isn't even that obscure for this theory to be so flawed like some say. Especially when Petscop is obscure af and you have really good videos on it. It's also weird to forget an entire expansion of this game but then you tear apart a kid's activity book for fnaf. When you have passion for a series it shows the same can be said when you don't.

“and his assistant elizabeth”, hmmmm tell me more of this elizabeth

teddie on thumbnail: (read in deap dark death voice) *im coming for you yu* teddie in reality: (read in high but not too high pitched voice) *EvErYdAyS gRaTe At YoUr JuNeS*

We see Yu's Shadow in the anime.

I'm stunned... a theory on my favorite game of all time?! I haven't even watched it yet, and I clicked that like! :D It's MARGARET! Not ELIZABETH! D:

Counter-theory: Teddie is essentially the same type of being as Morgana. Created by Igor (or Philemon?) out of mankind's hope in order to guide the wild card to the World. This aligns with his arcana being Star, with his connection to Yu, with him wanting to help the party from the get-go, with his special role in the true ending, and with him accessing the Velvet room and feeling familiarity with it. A great deal of other people have explained in the comments why Yu doesn't necessarily have a Shadow.

Actually, shadow Yu actually exists. in OVA during the final battle Shadow Yu manifest himself, and Yu accept him thus transform Izanagi into Izanagi no Okami. He had his own fears, but during 1 year in Inaba, he focuses all his attention on the investigation so his real thought of himself never makes an appearance, just before the final battle when he realizes he needs to move on, his shadows manifest. He could also use persona without confronting his shadows because he is one of the three who had been given a gift by the god.

You were right, the fans do not appear fond of this theory. Less in the *"ARGH, TEAR THIS NON-BELIEVER TO SHREDS!!!"* sense, but more in the *"I have legitimate, evidence-supported disagreements with this theory."* sense. I'd like to think I'm the same. This is just a theory, after all. However, even though there are other people that have been clearing up these points, I need to get it out too. *- Ameno-Sagiri is not Adachi's shadow.* It is the part of Izanami that she bestowed upon him to give him the ability to enter the other world without facing a shadow. It did draw some of its power from Adachi, much like the shadows, so I'm not surprised by this misconception. *- You used the wrong attendant name.* You were correct that someone by that name is a Velvet Room attendant, though. This one's name is Margaret. *- I had a gut feeling this point was wrong.* As I thought, I brought up a point I, myself, didn't have enough info on. But, that's ok. Other members of the community corrected me, and now I know. ^^ Thank you for shining some light on Persona. Not that 4 needed any more limelight. :P

GAME THEORY: "IS MORGANA SANS UNDERTALE?"

I know this is now 3 years old but in the p4 anima when Yu fights Margaret in the anima, Yu dose in face confront his shadow, and therefor, Teddy is not Yu’s shadow.

Maybe the real Shadow was the friends we made along the way

“He’s a human he can make mistakes” There’s a difference between errors and absolute lack of research. For a theorist you need to make sure your research is perfect by looking at all the various materials, which this lacks. If MatPat can observe all the spin-offs and merch for DDLC and FNAF, then he can do this for Persona too.

Or Yu simply doesn't have a shadow because he has nothing to reject about himself, being a blank slate and all. Teddy being the only auto maxed Link could just be a way for the game to ensure you're not locked out of winning against the final boss. "Didn't max any links? lol start over again for the true ending." Other people come into the Velvet room in several games without contracts, like Persona Q and 5 (and the Aegis story in 3 I think?) . Not being human to begin with, it's not all that odd for Teddy to show up there. It's more like a guideline, not a hard rule. Finally, I always saw Teddy as being an embodiment of the more positive emotions people may suppress, like childishness or curiosity, instead of the resentment and fear that normal shadows represent.

Matpat: upsets entire fanbase on purpose within the first minute without doing actual research into his insult Also matpat: why are you upset!???? 🥺🥺🥺