All of this is so confusing, the difference in opinion. Where would you recommend starting with getting a correct fit? I’m now scared of the thought of paying for a fit and they have the same train of thought as the GCN video (low is aero). Keep up with the vids, enjoying them.
My advice would be: priority number 1 is comfort and power endurance, then you can use your body's mobility to adopt an aero position. Forcing yourself into a position is absolutely the worst advice.
work into it. Start with a neutral fit. Your body will tell you where it wants to be. If something hurts, stop! Adjust the fit until it doesn't hurt then carry on.
What @@PeakTorque said! I'm also tall at 6'2", I usually ride a Canyon Ultimate (generic carbon road frame shape) with 110 stem. I have every average body geometry. I have an XL Decathlon generic alloy bike with a 140mm stem at roughly the same angle and it's good to stretch out, but the drop is harsher on my bike so I ultimately if I ever ride her bike again I'd unslam it. Comfort is way more important than aero because you can't produce any power without comfort for more than a few minutes. I say this as I'm walking home with my bike because I've got a problem with my leg - not comfortable so I'm doing 0 watts by walking.
Easiest to start with a higher position and work your way down if needed. Leave enough room for spacers on the fork shaft and only cut down once you've found the right position. Comfort beats aero every time. locked-up hips, uncomfortable back position will drain power.
Some of the pro's started to turn their levers inwards to make it more comfortable in the "sphinx" position. I tried it and it made a huge difference in comfort in both sphinx and on the hoods. Your bike looks squint but your hands and forearm will love it.
I find a short head tube and slammed stem pretty comfortable. It enables me to tilt my pelvis a bit and get a really flat back + I can still push the pedals with some tension in my back. If the stem and bars get any higher, I can't produce the same energy because my lower back has no tension. Also, a slammed stem improves front end stiffness and steering. Not by much but it's still an improvement. I will, however, experiment with an upside down stem on my next fast ride to see how it goes.
Having fitted thousands of riders over the years, my advice would be that there just isn’t a single solution that will fit all riders. The stem length and bar height for each individual will be different based on their body type, level of experience, flexibility, age and the type of riding they do. A crit racer will need to ride with 90 deg bent elbows for the majority of the time as their event is short and fast. A sportive event generally requires the rider to be able to comfortably achieve a relaxed bend at the elbow for a long period of time. When fitting you should be as concerned about the length of the stem as well as the height of the bars. A 90deg elbow bent position generally works better with a slightly longer stem (the rider’s spine is effectively longer the lower their torso gets which creates a need for additional reach). Any “one size fits all” advice from a fit point of view is an effort to make something very individual work for everyone, which just doesn’t hold water. It’s about as sensible as saying all riders on 51cm frames should ride size 42 shoes.
As a fitter totally agree with you. Simply speaking, when engineer makes a generalisation for human body position it isn't working. There is no one law, aim or factor with the body. It's a multiple scale system. And the posistioning approach shoule correspond.
Fitting is adapting a machine with terrible quality control (the human body) to a machine with good quality control (the bicycle). Generic fitting advice is pointless.
Yeah this guy in the video has no clue what hes talking about. In my crit race's, my stem is slammed, my head set is even lower, my stem cap is almost into my cheat cause my bars are so low. The most achieved aero is closer to the front tire you can get, like the lotus 108. Your so close to the front tire you can smell it. And its so aero that its banned from the UCI. And what this guy is also forgetting, that pro riders, ride bikes that are smaller than what they would actually ride while training. And the stem is still slammed. Ive been racing for over 25 years, and this kid clearly doesnt understand what fitting is.
@The Box why not? I know plenty of riders who dont race, have there bars slammed, and it works for them. So to say there is no reason for it is ludicrous. Most back pain is caused from not having your bars down far enough, or having them not high enough. Its all about what is most comfortable position for that rider. Its not rocket science my dude, no 1 is gonna have the same fit on 3 different bikes, with 3 different geometry sets. And thats what you base most fits with. Peddle to saddle, saddle to bars. Taller people typically have there bars slammed, while shorter people dont. Im 6.4, and having my bars up would kill my back, my brother is 5.9 and his bars have a 1.25in spacer. Cause thats whats more comfortable for him. That is what being fit for a bike means. Its not about style, or looks.
@The Box whats wrong with having slammed bars on an expensive bike? Thats not a nubbie thing to do. Claiming theres no reason to have slammed bars is a nubbie thing to say. And this is comming from 32 years experience, with 25 years of racing experience. Your not gonna win this dude, cause every rider is different. And some riders have to have there bars slammed so its more comfortable, just like some riders have to have there bars up high to ride more comfortable, its personal preference. Your opinion doesnt matter 1 tiny little bit, except for your own riding style. Thats just all there is to it, ask any bike shop fitter. They well tell you the same exact thing. Slammed bars work for some, and not for others. Simple as that, theres no debate over it. And if your a bike fitter, and your not recommending to some people that slammed bars would work better for them, then you probably shouldnt be fitting people for bikes.
So I’ve gone for a 40cm bar and shortened my stem, and pushed the bars up over the last year. I now have my lead out position as, elbows on the aero top part of the bar so they are comfortable and my forearm braces against my hoods with my hand forward. It’s easily sustainable and comfy. Also it’s really helped my sprinting strangely enough. No idea why lol.
Instead of slamming your stem, gradually lower your stem until it feels hard to ride more than 100k, and then raise it by a few mm. Also getting a longer and/or steeper angle stem is a good way to go.
What do you consider to be an "extreme" saddle to bar drop? I'm 194cm and am getting an entire revamp of my fit. Ended up adding spacers and flipping the stem to +6 degrees. It looks ridiculous but trying to figure it out
Great vid! Thx! Makes so much sense when demonstrated like that. Having long arms and legs I have a big saddle to bar drop. . My stems not slammed but was thinking I should. I've been in small stage races with roadbike TT stages. So uncomfortable! I got a photo taken of me side-on in the TT and my position was soo bad. Had a huge gap between head and hands catching air. I blamed my lack of flexibility. A slam stem would have made it even worse.
Not quite the same but I’ve had similar experiences with fitters measuring my shoulder blades and recommending me 38 cm bars (I currently ride a 46) Before I switched to the 46 I always felt short of breath just switching to the 46 allowed me to finally spread my arms and breathe I’m faster with a better average power output and higher average speed with wider bars yes it degrades my aerodynamics a bit but the ability to breathe is far more important than aerodynamics in aerobic exercise LOL
I have an XL Giant Contend, the head tube is big af, 23cm and I'm 1m98, I slammed my stem and got a -17° 130mm stem, should I keep it and get it back up ?
I cbf;d watching their video. But I've worked on the pro cycling circuit for years as a physiotherapist. About 2/3s of GC riders have slammed stems, and 95% of the rest would be within 1.5 cm of it. Not only that, they use a frame one size smaller than recommended. That's so they can get the stem down even lower for aero and better handling in corners. The smaller frame also requires a longer stem, and this gets a higher % of rider weight onto the front wheel, which has advantages for cornering. I've made a specialty of getting pros more comfortable for longer on slammed stems. In addition to 20+ hours a week in the saddle, it requires a lot of individually tailored exercise to loosen the spine and rib cage. Pro bike fits I am involved with aim to keep the rider comfortable in the drops for at least 15 minutes. Most non pros underutilize the drops because they don't have the flexibility. However, what GC riders are capable of, is not a benchmark for Joe Average. GCs are typically sub 10% bodyfat and have hip joint anatomy and iliac vasculature that is not compromised by a lower back angle.
Agreed. It’s so important to realise that pros are pros for a reason. They are in the very top percentage levels of performance in many of their physical attributes, not just FTP. There’s no such thing as an “average rider” when it comes to bike fitting, but elite and non-elite riders both have to search for the position that works for their body and their riding requirements. 👍
Interesting. I am just a fairly fit and relatively fast, but still only a recreational rider, 180cm tall, and riding on a 56cm frame with stem almost slammed, and I could sit on the drops forever. I find riding with my hands on the drops the most comfortable position of all. I use the 3t aeronova handle bar, which has similar curvature of the horns to what PT's handlebar has in that video. Better yet, I find generating more power easier when on the drops than when my hands are on the hoods. Handling in the corners while kissing the front tyre at high speed may be better, but it requires practice to get the confidence to ride like that. Years ago when I started cycling on a road bike, it was uncomfortable, but I persisted, also worked out my core muscles regularly and stretched and now I default to riding on the drops. My current bike frame also helps with this, having the seat tube rather upright, so I can push my hips more forward and open them up. I could literally count on the fingers of my hands how many riders on road bikes I have seen over the years actually riding on the drops. All just place the hands on the hoods and maintain as upright torso as possible.
@@82vitt I could happily ride along on the drops, but for the fact it places additional strain on my neck (which I've previously broken). Not just a flexibility thing, but riding on the hoods or tops and being more upright in general just makes visibility a whole lot easier - riders I do see riding on the drops often seem completely oblivious to what's 20 yards, 50 yards, 100 yards, 200 yards in front of them, which may be fine for pros, but seems less than ideal on many pothole-ridden roads being shared with other vehicles, pedestrians, cyclists, horses etc. Oddly enough though, it's a position I actually find more comfortable in other respects.
@@philthewriter After getting prescription glasses a few years ago I cannot ride low because my neck cannot crane up far enough to get my eyes in line with my glasses. Might be an equipment problem, but I prefer to keep slightly more upright and have less strain on my neck. Keeping a look ahead is crucial to the survival of a cyclist on public roads.
Yeah, right. Your aim is to keep the pro rider comfortable in the drops for at least 15 minutes? That is bad. I'm 40, amateur racer and I can stay in the drops for several hours - that is on my track bike used for crits and a drop of 110 mm between saddle and top of the handlebar. I get a bike fit for every bike I buy.
Actually, I have a long torso and reach, so I fit into larger framesets as a result. My saddle is lower respective to many others, and therefore it’s easy to slam my stem without compromising my hip angle. In other words, not everyone needs to avoid slamming their stem. It ultimately depends on their fit to the bike, as well as what mobility training they are doing and what their range of motion is.
I did slam my stem on my roadbike, because the fastest positions that you described are very uncomfortable for me. When I'm in the hoods with my forearms horizontal, my arms get very sore from the elbows up very quickly. I much prefer to put my forearms on the tops in a faux-TT position, except that since I got a bike with internal cable routing, my hands don't have anything to hold on to anymore, so I don't have control over my front wheel. My previous bike had the shift cables sticking out towards the centre from the shifters and I could grab them when I was in that position. The fastest position in the real world for me, is in the drops with my stem slammed and my arms slightly bent, which is a position I can easily hold for an extended period. I don't know the specific GCN video you refer to, but a TT position doesn't seem really that applicable when you're not talking about a TT bike. I completely agree with you on what seems to be the fastest TT position, the reasons why are quite clear, but it only applies to bikes that have a TT cockpit, which roadbikes don't have. For context; I ride a Canyon Aeroad size M which I think equates to a traditional framesize 54 or 55, but don't quote me on that.
Hi what’s your seat tube length? I have the the Large and trying to decide whether to buy the xl frame or a fresh Large frame. I’m not certain if mine was cut it doesn’t look cut but it’s visually short and feels short even with max spacers🤔
Interesting video, made me subscribe! Do you think them should still be in the highest position when using TT bars on a normal road bike, since they already lift your elbows a few centimeters just like a non-slammed stem would do when using it without TT bars...?
The point at which i say taller riders should lift the bars and push forward slightly - this is by no means be all and end all. I'd only reccomend this for a fast flat course. My climbing set up is vastly different, a lot shorter and perhaps lower.
Any thoughts on the new Speeco bars that have all of the reach in the bar and not the stem? Is it time that manufacturers brought out new sti levers to support this position?
unrelated but you mentioned a few months ago in one of your tech review videos that there was one aero bike you would buy if it came out and they had addressed one issue you had. What was the bike Canyon Aeroad?
I find the 90° on the tops quite easy to hold on a small 54 cm frame with a slammed 140mm stem. No numb balls, no sore shoulders, no carpel tunnel syndrome. Can tuck right in when needed, simply roll forward on the saddle, hands on the hoods (or fingers), tuck the elbows in. I went to a 54cm when the bikes I raced with were too high and too short in reach. I'll test the CdA stacked vs. slammed, though. Agree with TT references.
Great video and great channel, glad to have found you. Really like your no-nonsense analysis and advice. Makes me wonder, "why is no one else saying this/why have I not thought of that before". Proof that youre doing a good job. Thanks
I am 6'1" and have owned a 2001 Giant with a 55.5cm frame size (L) since new. I found the stock stem WAY too long and too low as well. I replaced the stem with a short one with a high rake and find it much better. I've just purchased a Specialized 58cm frame. It is on order. I fear I will run into the same or worse issues. Anyone out there have any insights on this? I rode a 58cm Specialized and it was sublime on my test ride, so I'm hoping it is just nerves.
Great video! If you watch footage from the 90s tdf the bars are almost as high as the saddle - higher, but longer position, with the cyclists getting behind the bars instead of over the top of them.
I watch GCN cause some of it is OK. BUT if someone ( anyone) tells me to slam my stem I totally ignore it . I have spacers under my stem to give a comfortable position.( which I have established myself ) There are many things GCN say that are utter cr@p .Also they say some things that they think are a new idea. ALMOST ALL of it HAS BEEN THOUGHT OF BEFORE.They seem to forget that cyclists have been riding for +100 years . Been riding for 40 years , heard it all before .
Your riding position is your riding position. If you worry about other people's setups you will be uncomfortable. It takes lots of work to be able to ride low and fast. and plenty of people don't understand. Pros ride tiny frames compared to their body size specifically so they can ride longer, lower front ends. My bike is small so I'm able to slam it, if it was a size bigger I would not.
Hi, just wanted to say thank you for the advice. I add spacer back to get to position of power and to sustain aero position. I am actually more compact this way.
well, i'm a very tall rider (1,92m) and a very slammed position is my personal favorite. I'm quite young and flexible, so there is no problems in going low when it comes to power and confort, i ride a 58cm allez sprint and if i put spacers under the stem my shoulders naturally bend backwards and hurt my upper back, it feels way more natural if i have a slammed stem, i mean it just feels normal, even if my elbows are squared or if i'm resting my forearm in the bars. In my opinion, ppl should get a fit and see what works for them.
Had my stem slammed and the chimney cut. Worked fine until I started riding with clip on bars for all day rides. My hip got so impinged that I lost 10% power instantly when lying down on them. Took a bike fit and since I had no stack height to work on, my stem got flipped... Made the bike look like a hybrid, but all in all it made me more comfortable and faster.
For descents, have you tried using a dropper? I put one on my gravel bike and then promptly PR’d on a narrow & twisty road section. I’m tall like you, 35” instep.
You make lots of sense. Some of these concepts are counterintuitive and perhaps it is because a reversed stem angle appears aesthetically displeasing to the eye, and that these low stem tends seem logical from an aerodynamic point of view. My dad always said BS baffles brains. Thank you for your valid comments as a tall rider myself they are greatly appreciated 🙏
Have you seen any data comparing the “aero hoods” position and regular hoods position with the same back angle? All the data I’ve seen is comparing a rider sitting upright on the hoods to bending their arms and lowering their torso. How much of that savings is from the more aggressive back angle though vs the bent arms?
Gmbn: Buy whatever bike you want and have fun Gcn: Take a loan to buy the most expensive bike you can, and then hold it in the living room to look at it all the time
No , just use what works for you. I have no problem with the aero hoods positions on a slammed stem , it just feels comfier being that low and faster at the same time .
Saw this vid last night and today I raised my stem as high as I could, just to see. It didn't work for me. I feel waaay more comfortable with my stem slammed. To be fair, I'm extremely flexible, and short, 5'9 with a 54cm frame. Guess it makes sense for a taller rider though!
Good video.However I ride a 54 (178cm) but my upper body angle can only starting to look like yours on the video and get me a proper aero position when my stem was at its lowest. Probably because my short legs and long torso, so the seatpost was never so high that it became possible for me to set my handle bar lower.
if you had a bigger size frame your stem would be "slammed". with the amount of spacers under your stem and how much seatpost you have sticking out it looks like your riding 1 size too small anyway.
Hallelujah. Until now I found him more credible than foulmouthed Hambini but this video shows that he is also just winging it and spewing engineering textbook platitudes to the web.
@@automaticraccon I don't think you're considering that the majority of his height is in the legs. So if he went up a frame size, wouldn't the stem need to be shorter to maintain the reach distance? And an increase in frame size may only raise the head tube length a cm or two.
It's a TCR isn't it? The dropped top-tube always makes them look like they have an insane amount of seat post. Also, his reach is pretty short. This is a video about him and his bike fit. It's kind of irrelevant to anybody who isn't similarly proportioned.
You can counter dropping the stem slightly by moving forwards and rotating/tilting the hips/pelvis as per on a TT bike. Though using things like short nose saddles which help that position isn't so good for general riding where you riding in a variety of positions - Tops, hoods , drops etc. I find what can work well on the Sunday full on chain gang or mid week crit, doesn't necessarily work during a week of climbing and decending in the Alps or Pyrenees. My position during a hard club ride can be fine then I go for a gentle ride for lunch with my girlfriend where I am sat more upright and it feels really uncomfortable.
How tall are you? I noticed you have a lot of seat post, like me! 6’7” on a 61cm Cervelo R5 with seat post out to max +2mm (I’m only 81kg), and fits perfectly no slamming. And YES!! Rim brakes!
The bike you are demoing on has a noticably short head tube. I would think someone of your height would need a frame with much taller head and seat tubes. If that were the case, you could get your stem way down and still achieve optimal aerodynamic body position no?
My personal optimum drop and reach have changed significantly over the course of five years; 2 cm lower and 2 cm longer. The main levers have been: A) progressing as a rider (time in the saddle, flexibility) and B) finding a saddle which allows to rotate the pelvis forwards at the hip
Thank God I found this video. I watch a few GCN videos and had slammed my stem. It was so uncomfortable on 2hr ride. I thought maybe I just needed time to adjust, but it was so bad. Luckily I didn’t cut the stem. I don’t know what I would’ve done.
Depends on your frame size to your height ratio. If you have big frame (ratio) then your bars might be too high. People tend to buy frames that are too large IMO, though clearly you have not. Now LONG stems, that's what I'm about 😄 my "rule of thumb" is having my hands in front of the front axle, when in the forward position. Of course I look for frames with a steep seat angle and short wheelbase, and then push the saddle all the way forward too. Practically a prone position. Climbing is a breeze. And all my riding experience told me that climbing was by far the most important aspect of cycling. You can practically forget about everything else unless you live in a flat desert. Handling is also naturally sharp and responsive with this setup.
With large frames you're not gonna have a stem height problem. Instead you're going to find that the seat has to be scooted all the way forwards and the handlebars brought all the way back so you can reach it. You're seat is gonna be super up there regardless of frame
Daniel Oss’s breakaway position today was interesting at least to me. (Milan san remo) Not that aggressive and seemed to push hands outward against inside of drops to give extra stability and perhaps shifting
I always thought that, the bicycle manufacturers, just favor the tall riders, or just bully short riders. That the short would not be able to get the handlebar low enough on their small frames. Now I see, that it's opposite way around.. Thanks, I feel very happy for my small frame now. And I guess I can try to rise my handlebar little bit.. I slammed it, thinking that I get used with it, but seems it just made me use hods more and less drops.
your yoga blocks example clearly shows how a geometry of a tt bike works. it's all about enabling a rider to get into the most aero, yet sustainable position. i was wondering why the cockpit was positioned relatively high, but again - your yoga blocks illustrate quite understandably the reason behind it...
Just give it a few years. Once you have a wife, young kids, and a job...you'll care more about finding 10 free minutes to ride, now how "slammed" your bike is. Trust me;)
Yeah, I'm getting sick of people suggesting I slam my stem too. I'm riding a 60cm frame, and have very long legs for my height. When I built the bike, I didn't even bother cutting the fork. I just stacked it with spacers, and flipped the stem, and I've still got more saddle to bar drop than most of the people who suggest slamming it.
All respect to GCN however, I’ve just tested out your theory and you’re absolutely correct. I am 5’7” and ride a small frame vintage road bike (Reynolds 531c) with a slammed SR steam and you are right. I can hardly breathe when riding with my arms in the bent position. I will comment again once the steam has been raised. Thanks for the informative videos. P.s I’ve heard GCN have actually subscribed to your channel.
All of my stems are "slammed." Not all the same length or angle. Why? Fit. I like bikes with longer wheelbases, and those tend to have taller head tubes. I'm also mad flexible and I'm most comfortable riding low. With my slammed stems, I'm always in the drops with forearms about level. 54cm frames usually by the way (51 Synapse). Saddle to bar is 10cm for me.
Yup, lower slam stem is good for aero position but too much lower does not necessary. Most pro rider their handle bar just 10-14cm lower from the seat level. For beginners maybe not comfort for the first month but after 3 months it will work just fine. Me 172cm 60kg with -17degree 130mm stem on (M)51cm size bike, 8.5kg, 50mm rim, Gp5000 tire, stem 10cm lower below seat level. The aero position just work fine with head tuck and arm parallel to the ground. Using abus gamechanger aero helmet and race cut jersey, the result 200w@33-36kmh depends on wind condition.
Bike fit should be based on COMFORT (if you can't ride the bike for 4 hours, it does not fit and you need to be able to ride in the drops for at least 15 minutes) and POWER (gotta be able to turn the pedals to go fast). If you create a position you can ride for 4 hours and use your drops while producing high power, then you will be fast. It is that simple.
Yep. I just bought a TCR. If I lived somewhere with good bike availability I might have bought a Defy instead. For my body (really long legs, short torso, very flexible, using a lot of saddle to bars drop) the Defy, with it's taller headtube, would be about right with no spacers. Whereas with the TCR I'll likely keep 20+mm.
What if your in a race that requires frequent shifting and braking . The position you advise doesn’t let you shift or brake . So 70-90% of the race might end up in the drops or hoods anyway where you have the option to shift and brake . Now you have compromised the positions you would be in for most for the race to gain advantage for a position that might only have limited use . Your advise seems more fitting for a time trial . Or a flat race with few sharp turns . .
Because most are pretty uneducated on biomechanics. Im not being rude, im deadly serious. If you look closely on the current top guys that trend is changing. Spacers are making a comeback.
I'm confused. Wouldn't you call the bike you're riding here "slammed"? It's not down to the head tube but it's a pretty substantial drop, yet it looks pretty spot on for you. Agree that road bike geometry is not ideal for TTing but then again everything about a road bike is a compromise for the sake of versatility.
