Hookless - out of the shadows. 

Backwards hat Dylan impression with the American accent had me rolling 😂

If they are saving money on manufacturing, they sure don't seem to be passing the savings to the consumer.

"put that effing pool noodle back into the pool" 😂😂😂😂😂😂

Excellent analysis. Having worked in both the motor vehicle and cycling industry I can honestly say the only common factor between motor vehicle and road bike wheels is both are circular; every single aspect of their construction and dimensions (including pressures) are different by a massive margin. You're the first person I've seen to cover the differences so comprehensively and so succinctly. Great work.

Thanks for the CAD moulding. Definitely helps understand the manufacturing attractiveness of hookless.

Some more stuff: 1. By Hooked i really mean Crotched. Hooked is an old standard not really in use now. 2. For what its worth, some more comparison to the car which is in a different realm anyway, the ETRTO sidewall height (flank) for a J car rim is 17.5mm. A 622 bike rim sidewall height is 6.3mm. The sidewall height:diameter ratio (an approximation of manufacturing accuracy importance) for a 16" car rim is 0.04. For a 622 bike wheel it is 0.01. So we are dealing with floppier, less stiff sidewalls and beads, with a quarter of the slip allowance up the sidewall. Squeaky butt time for sure when you think about it. 3. If you are using hookless, check the ISO standard in the chart here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775#Clincher_tyres_on_straight_sided_or_crochet_type_rims I would add 2mm to the min tyre size if you want more safety factor. Ambient and road temp will affect the pressure of a close volume. With heat, the pressure will rise. 4. If you suspect a folding bead is broken internally or stretched, don't use it. 5. Don't be tempted to lubricate the bead to get it on, it will get it off too. 6. If you are on smooth tarmac (UAE) and want an aero front wheel with a 28mm tyre, i suspect you will need more than 5 bar, which is against the current reccomendation. Forget using a 25mm on a wide rim, too dangerous in my opinion 7. If hookless wants to stay we need to push for taller sidewalls and more tightly controlled bead diameters on tyres. 8. So why is Giant doing it? Giant Taiwan is the leanest of all producers with the highest output of any bike company in the world. They cannot afford to adopt a Toyota style lean manufacuting method and toss the odd rim into scrap - the process would not work. 9. What about Zipp and Enve? Same as above but more to do with wasting US labor cost. Not feasible. Each rim has hours of cutting, and preform. All manual. Not feasible to scrap rims. 10. What about mainland Chinese factories, APex, Farsports? Almost the opposite of above. But that will change, labour costs are rising. 11. If the current ETRTO/rim guidelines are built around crotched type profiles, hookless needs a complete new standard, with a safe sidewall height and safetey factors that the bike indusrtry can achieve. The loser in this will probably mean tyres getting near impossible to mount by hand. My opinion only

Excellent video! As an engineer I never understood why the hookless rims was great. Turns out - they're not! I'm glad I stayed with my hooked rims.

Hey Limey! I am an American without truck, but with an engineering degree - you do good work. Thanks

I've always thought that hookless rims on bicycles is a very stupid idea, completely driven by manufacturing considerations, and this video confirms that totally reasonable point of view. The first part with the CAD sketch was very helpful and informative, thank you for posting.

Bike Industry Marketing/Engineering at it's finest PT!!!

Again, THIS kind of content is what cycling needs. Seriously. (I also notice that your pen is working).

I worked for many years as an injection moulding development engineer, and I concur with what you are saying here about the mould cores and complexity of the tooling and process. This is exactly why I thought they were going for hookless, and I run hooked rims for this reason.

Really, really well done video and analysis. It really helped me understand the issue much better. I appreciate all the work that you put into it.

I never looked at a hookless rim profile before, yet upon first glance in your video the design flaw is more than obvious! Looking at that table at the end it's hilarious that the only benefits to hookless are cheaper manufacture, and that speaks volumes. If you're getting hate from the GCN spectators you've got my support, that lot have bitten into the marketing bullshit into excess for years now. Great no BS presentation style, really like it. Subscribed.

1:59 The most rootenist tootenist thing I’ve heard in all my life. Spits in a bucket, ding.

You always answer the How's and the What's and the Why's - that's why I love your channel 😎💯👍 That's why I am subscribed 👍

Fun fact - original Hutchinson UST road tubeless tires used carbon fiber for the bead material instead of kevlar or steel. At the time, kevlar was considered too elastic. I believe it was Bontrager (again back with the original UST road) used "high modulus" kevlar. I have to believe that most if not all road tubeless tires use something like what Bontrager was using, but maybe they should consider something stiffer again.

Just broke my femur when I got a blowout on my rear zipp 353. I'm not sure if I hit anything or maybe I had the pressure wrong on the tubeless setup. Completely new tire mounted by my bike mechanic the night before 32 mm Continental Grand Prix 5000 AS. Not sure I want to use these wheels anymore.

ZERO teams want to ride hookless. I’ve been calling it out for 3 years now. Good to see hookless getting cancelled like it deserves.

The pro's want to ride tubular according to a team director from my country.. They are just not allowed to by sponsors.

That was great. Thanks for doing such a good job explaining the pros and cons.

Spot on analysis and exactly what I have been stressing in my conversations with others ever since I saw this design roll out. The number of inventions that have come out to make tubeless a workable solution on road bikes has been fascinating to watch and with the advent of hookless, it has crossed into the absurd, and still that cannot make this product into a genuinely safe product for cyclists. But hey! There’s better profits for the manufacturers, so let’s do it anyway and get our marketing departments to spin it up as the latest and greatest thing!

Hey PT, you hit the nail on the head for this video. This is why we never considered using hookless for our rims, despite the cost benefits.

I've been saying this from day one the second I saw hookless wheels being pushed. It's a shame that people with technical backgrounds bring this stuff to light and get ignored.

How is no one commenting on the lava lamp? Was all I could look at during the whole video

Excellent explanation PT, really easy to understand.

There is no doubt that this is simply brilliant, just like always!

Absolutely awesome analysis!! Thank you for the straight talk.

LightBicycle is introducing a semi-hook (forgot the trade name), that appears to have some bead grip, but has no sharp bends, and so supposedly molds cleanly, is less likely to suffer cracking upon impact, and still offers 5psi extra pressure rating for tubeless. Dunno, but I might consider it with tubes to have most of the safety and most of the impact resistance (if it really provide all this).

Thank you for the great analysis both from a consumer as well as a manufacturer point of view. I personally enjoy riding hookless, but I also run wide tires at low pressures. I wouldn't recommend them unless their use case is strictly the same.

Love the ball bag expression , great wrist watch , top class video

Well, since the launch of Hookless Tech - I've given up on those Brands that banded together to con consumers in believing "That Hookless Is the Next Best Thing!!". BTW I only ride highend wheels and I refused to put my life in this silly tech. Finally, a technically and scientific presentation against Fake Marketing/Manufacturing Costs - Safety is never part of the Equation. Oh yes, and that ultra low pressure inflation to aid increase speed is a joke too....Thank you Peak Torque for Slamming Zipp and all others(Hookless Crowns)....

Excellent presentation, thank you.

Learnt some things there. That's why I like your channel.

Thank you for the comment on the pool noodles on road bikes. Wouldn't the reduced air also affect sealing for gravel and mtb tires as well, as the pool noodle needs to increase in size as the tire width goes up?

Great analysis/explanation! Thanks!

Excellent analysis, fair play. Great to see the discussions from different perspectives too [manufacturing, reliability, tolerancing, structural] All just makes me happy with my aluminium rims

Very good video which explains everything about hookless rims. Thanks

Tubular tires are the answer but I forgot what the question was. 🤔😉

One key point that no one seems to be making when saying that hookless rims are dangerous is that the problem only seems to be with road specific rims, NOT gravel or MTB. The issue seems to be the tire width and not hookless technology. The rule of 105 is probably the main issue. Running tires that are narrower than the rim is the factor IMO.

The irony of hookless not being safe in the heat when the only people who can afford them won't ride if the weather is cloudy.

I'm still glueing 22mm tubs, 20 years on, running €200 clincher fot training with cheap €20 beaded tires and butyl tubes. No compressors, not tires coming off the rim, seldom get punctures (last one in training was 2016). I look on in puzzlement at the "developments" in the bike industry.

new subscriber here when you mention the stack up tolerance of mold parts.

Nice work, thank you for that detailed explanation. Re the tire insert: they have multiple functions that interrelate. They protect your rims, they also protect your tires from pinch flatting and they give you, if they fit right, enough support to ride home if you flat and can’t fix your tire. But let me explain why air doesn’t always work. In extreme conditions we experience slick and muddy terrain which demands low air pressure for maximum traction. But we also have to deal with sharp edged rocks which demand high air pressures. How do you solve this problem? Tire inserts! I can comfortably drop the tire pressures to whatever I want to achieve great traction and have no fear of crushing my rims or pinch flatting my tires. Tire inserts have been a huge advancement for those people riding in extreme conditions. They are very confidence inspiring. As to why road racers us them I’m not 100% sure, probably for similar reasons. But clearly everything has its limitations because whatever is was that DeGendt hit totally overwhelmed his inserts, tire and rim. Obviously 28’s are totally unsuitable for hitting rocks. We use 47 to 50’s when dealing with rocky trails and they work reliably.

Would it make sense to have a hookless design with a thicker sidewall, and then machine out some of the inner side to create a hook? Or just deform it with pressure somehow.

Great video as always!!!! I have to admit that I own a pair of hookless wheels (ENVE SES 3.4), I run 28mm tires that are compatible to the system according to ENVE and since I am quite light the pressures I put are relatively “low” no more than 60psi, having said that how concerned should I be? Are those 13-15 psi of margin that I have “safe”? Anyway, thanks for the video always great and very informative

Excellent video. Thanks for the info.

Spank MTB rims have 2 wells for the tire beads (one for each side) - but they have a patent on it… Light Bicycle rims have a new “hybrid semi hooked” rims on their website. (Silly light, 250g for a road tubeless rim with a 95kg rider weight limit).

This is Gerald Undone level thoroughness 😂

I enjoy the 'pop' .... 'pop' sound the tyres make when inflated on my hooked rims, very reassuring. Never rolled a tyre, even when they've flatted while decending 👌

I rode the Etapé last year on tubeless, but hooked rims. My riding companion (although we separated on the road) remarked afterwards that he had seen several bikes with tyres blown off with sealant everywhere. He put it down to tubeless technology and I laughed. But it was 35° at times and I wonder if they were hopeless (I'll leave the autocorrection in place) rims?

Excellent explanation. Thank you. I now have a limited idea of what it's all about- not that I have any plans to go tubeless, or carbon-rimmed, or hookless!

This video is so good! Thank you!

Great video. One point I found confusing is that at 21:10 he seemed to indicate that the Conti S TR tire is more difficult to mount because it's made to run tubeless, but I found it considerably easier than the clincher. For reference, this was going from a 28 clincher to 30mm S TR. No comparison, the 30mm S TR was much easier.

Liked and subscribed just for the spot-on impression of people from my country

You hit on the two observations I had after seeing De Gent's wheel, that both appear to be things no one pays any attention too, even tho so many are paid to do just that. The road temp in the Arabian peninsula surely had an effect on pressure, and that the tire volume was compromised by an insert probably played a part as well. I'm not an engineer, but surely a tire with less internal "space" that is being heated by the desert tarmac is even more prone to a blow out.

Loved this one, agree 100% with everything you said. Well done. 👏🏻👏🏻

You Rock! Cycling industry just went kuku for the last 5 years or so. Everything is money and numbers. I am riding hooked with Vittoria latex tubes. Over 60000km on crapy roads 2 puncures in total on my current bike (one was valve stem problem) Pros would be happier and safer riding 28 tubulars glued on a nice wide tubular rim.

Nice analysis. Worth mentioning that hookless works great with lower pressure applications like MTB and gravel!

Nice watch! Is that a seiko gmt? The orange is so deep and vibrant.

Great explanation to a problem which seems to be easily discarded or speaken out for in a too simple way.

Yeah I also thinking it doesn't make sense to use a mousse and still expect tubeless sealant to work. The mousse occupies nearly all of the volume inside. I guess if you use a smaller mouse it could still work. It could also be possible to use a mousse specifically designed to allow sealant to flow through it.

Nice video, I also believe the prepreg layup is simpler with hookless - with fewer strips to cut and lay in place saving further time and money

Can an approved tire today not be approved after a certain number of installations, or inflations. because the bead contact point stretched over time?

New to the channel so sorry if you missed it. I’m interested in your take on tubeless?

as an American I can say I very much enjoyed your American accent impression. Yes it's a caricature, but a pretty good/accurate one!

enjoyed this one very much!

thank you

hookless is actually less aero btw as the steeper beed angle flattens the tyre, mushrooms the sidewall and lowers the DAM and widens the WAM (things you learn being a 3T Bike ambassador and having tight as seatstay clearance.

Add raised humps at the center drop transition. Pump until it pops over, deflate to operating pressure.

As an mech engineer myself I love this very much

I use the Zipp 454 with Conti GP5000S TR 28mm in tubeless setup. I am easily able to mount the tyres on the rims with my hands. It is harder to dismount the tyres the tyres from the rim. So I have been able to dismount the tyres only with the help of tyre levers.

Thanks, been telling my mates to avoid for years. I have the 454 nsw zipp wheels but they were the first iteration and are hooked. One thing - can you clear up pressures - hambini in his video of the same issue (cut apart zipp wheel, about 18:30 in) seemed to extol higher pressures - does that not lead to an increase chance of blow off with hookless ? there was an enve video of them testing this somewhere iirc.

Great video! thanks for the perspective. I think your right on. FYI there is no person that drives an F250 that would give a crap about this subject. F250 is a work truck not for arm chair weight weenies.

Thanks for the prsentstion. Road Hookless is a no go for me due to my weight but I know that. I wonder how many wheels and bikes are sold to people that don’t know how marginal their safety limits are or over.

Great video man! Hookless on road is pure bottom-line thing for companies - prices are definitely not lower than hooked, while you get inferior product, which on top costs more in usage (TR tires cost more, need sealant) - not counting in the risk of crash...

All of this is why I went back to pure clinchers. I am a sports rider, and losing an hour out on the road trying to get a tubeless tire on while the group stands around is out of the question. The power gained from tubeless is just too small to bother with. Also, you have a hard time getting the presta valve to seal on cheap TPU tubes, which make clinchers still easier to mount.

Relieved that the Zipp 353 NSW wheels that I have should be okay for the application I use the for. Gravel. Running 700x38 Rene Herse (on the approved list) tubeless and never higher than 45psi. Had no issues with installation.

Nice mold design and I'm sure some factories are using something similar but I believe the standard practice in the industry is to use a single piece mandrel, even in hooked rims. In order to remove it they make it out of a soft material which is permanently deformed during extraction and must therefore be disposed of after a single use. This is obviously also less cost effective than the reusable mandrels in hookless rim manufacture.

Spot on impression of an American

Give this guy a medal!

Had idea of using the new straight wall mold method with extra thick walls then chucking partially disassembled mold in a lathe for machining in the hooks. However, the hook area wouldn't end up as strong, but could have fewer voids. Economy increase would be dependent on old hooked molds' yield.

How much does a carbon rim compress in use? I've heard several people say that with tubless its necessary to mount a tyre before the wheel build can be finished, or it goes slack. This means that there is stress from lacing and again from the hoop stress in the tyre, is this leaving the rim undersized? Then if you reduce the circumference of the tyre bed, does that then leave the sidewall 'slack' and more prone to wrinkelling, particularly if it is less stiff for a hookless setup than for hooked, in hooked there is more material closer to the outer perimeter, making the side wall stiffer. Fundamentally, it feels like this could work fine, if the tolerance is good and everything is good and stiff, but maybe we are just pushing the safety margins too far with 1200g wheelsets.

Perfect video, i wish more people would understand how dangerous hookless really is.

50mm deep rim - Oh baby

Excellent video, you have gained a subscriber

Great video. I never got hookless and won’t use it, but if it’s cheaper for them to make and all that, did they add in “it’s more aero” so they can just charge us even more for the wheels? If it passed down to our wallet I wouldn’t be so annoyed by it, but all it did was give them even more profit.

great explanation

I loved your video. What about aluminium, are they extruded?

Wait. Are the TL tires shaped differently to interface with hookless wheels? Can TL tires interface properly with hooked wheels?

Very good video. Thank you for posting. I wrote somewhere: What happened to hookless and tubeless wheel design over last few years? Manufacturers like Roval had to reinforce the wheels and add 100-20 grams of weight, so that wheels can withstand pro riders requirements. What is the average weight of a pro rider? Probably around 75 kg. What is the weight of an amateur Average Joe in my part of Europe? According to some statistisc 89 kg. So you probably need to add extra sealant and to further reinforce the wheel to be on the safe side. Where does that lead us? To heave inferior, heavy wheels where tire can come off the wheel if there is sudden air decompression. Does that happen? Yes it does.I'm in my 50-ties, my vision deteriorated. It happened to me to hit an object like big pothole or some debris in the mountains when descending at high speed. On clincher tires with a tube my tire never came off the rim fortunately. Would hookless tire came off the rim in that case when the cut is that big that sealant is not able to deal with it? Most probably. Why would I ride inferior, heavier and unsafe design then? Because they are cheaper? What was the purpose of carbon wheelset? To have lighter wheels than alloy wheels. Is hookless design fulfilling this purpose? IMO it's not. For an Average Joe, clinchers were the choice because it was too much hassle with tubulars. How many flat tires did I get on clinchers with tubes? 1 per season. Is it a problem? None at all. Is tubeless a design you can always depend on? It's not. I've seen situations where tire wouldn't seal for unknown reasons. So you still have to carry a spare tube and a pump. And good luck to take this tire off if it's cold or it rains and put it back on. It takes me 3-5 minutes max with a tube.

When your rims are extruded aka, aluminium, there are no molds and no temptation to cut costs by simplifying complexity and compromising safety redundancies. Just saying. I love these PT vids. So educational and clearly presented.

Thanks!

Really well explained

How many rims can a mold do before it is used up. Is this different between hooked and hookless? Units per mold?

I think the Vittoria pool noodle collapses under the inflation pressure so the volume loss is much smaller than some of the inserts that are true pool noodle inserts. My understanding was that most of the motivation was to make sure the liner did not touch the tire and increase Crr, but increased air volume and sealant also makes sense.

will we ever see rims molded hookless with extra material so hooks can be machined in afterwards?

I cant find the quote, but i remember when hookless was being introduced that it was described as giving "better compaction because of the ability to use a rigid mold in the center" so i wonder if your hooked mold is actually reflecting how its actually done. I wonder if its actually a flexible bladder forming the rim bed.

Very well explained for carbon rims so can you explain the reasons for hookless aluminium rims which require a simple extrusion. My wife is awaiting delivery of a Ribble CGR it has hookless aluminium rims and even though I offered to pay more for hooked they said they couldn’t offer an alternative. Would using tubes make them safer or more dangerous. It’s a definite concern Thanks

Seems to me that the going wider trent tire wise is lagging behind the rim tech, resulting in a miss match of too narrow tires which are used at too high a pressure. De Gendt said he hit something btw According to vittoria the rim broke because of that. Also it is aerodynamic to use rims that are wider then the tire when fitted, but there us a high risk since the rim can hit an object directly with the tire not mushrooming.