Gender: A Wider Lens | with Sasha Ayad & Stella O'Malley 

For some reason everyone seems to have forgotten just how much children and teenagers don't know shit

Three intelligent people talking about a difficult subject in an informed and compassionate way. What more can one ask for?

I'm glad Stella answered her own question! When she mentioned that the 2 largest groups to identify as trans right now were both Teenage females and middle aged males. Near the end she touched on people "just trying to find a purpose". They are both also the 2 largest demographics currently going through an identity crisis as well as having the highest rates of suicide. It seems she may be on to something HUGE there.

Fantastic.. I pretty much agree with every word that Sasha spoke. As a transsexual post op 20 years, I wish there were therapists of the same mind when I transitioned. We need to be so cautious with labels and over complicating natural expressions of exploration in childhood. In my view at its heart the trans identity is a response to environment. An environment of ideas and confusing and unhelpful social engineering programs.

Stella is such a badass. I love how much her eyes light up when she's exploring big ideas, how deeply her love of exploration and truth shows through. It's a rare and beautiful thing.

Stella says she likes the term "pre-gay". That's so funny. I like the term too, and think it's appropriate sometimes, but I thought Larry David coined it in an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm. He meets the son of a woman he's dating who loves musicals and is extremely camp and fabulous (incidentally, he also admires the striking lines of the swastika). He buys the boy a sewing machine for his birthday and he loves it but his mother is upset by the idea of sending her son down that road. Larry says that ship has sailed, the boy is pre-gay.

It wasn't just good, it was utterly brilliant. What incredible women.

Great to see Sasha Ayad back on the podcast!

A very relevant discussion, when set against the Tavistock judgement you covered last week. It's important to hear from medical professionals rather than acdemics or political activists, from people who actually work in the field rather than just deal with its societal manifestations, and their insight and experience of real cases is a very useful counterpoint to the higher-profile "celebrity" cases we read about these days. (And Stella's comparison with eating disorders in the '90s is directly on point). I'm just concerned that they're at risk of ostracism from their professional community for expressing what, to me, seem like common-sense views and considering other treatment options - let's hope that it doesn't eventuate.

The most powerful hour of RU-vid discussion in 2020? Like, I’m not exaggerating perhaps? WOW!!!!!

I resonate with Stella's idea that this idea stems from wanting to understand where one fits into sex/gender roles. If one looks to media (especially social) it seems impossible that anyone would feel normal. I'm not a plucky, sarcastic go-getter prone to fits of sobbing; am I a woman? Given the option to not become one, I would have chosen that route when I was younger. It takes years, and the wisdom that comes, to truly know that every human is an individual and only things that are broken need fixing.

Oh yeah! The wonderful Sasha and Mr. B and now a new one for me, the stellar Stella. Will definitely sign up for your podcasts. Thanks million all around.

I think there is a huge problem with psychiatry, which is informed also by my personal experience. I had difficulties over many years and never really understood why. I struggled socially, was bullied by my peers, preyed on by abusive men and couldn't hold on to a job. I saw various doctors and they prescribed me antidepressants, usually within one meeting and without asking any questions. The meds came with severe side effects. I was living in an abusive relationship and it got so unbearable I attempted suicide. I spent a lot of time doing my own reading and research because I realised no one was going to help me. Eventually I contacted a neuropsychologist, for a very expensive fee, and I was diagnosed with autism. I value this diagnosis because suddenly so many things make sense... but unfortunately there was no follow-up and I have been left wondering, what now? I don't care a jot about identity labels but I do want to understand myself so I can live well and stop struggling to get by all the time, but it feels like that is a very tall order. Wouldn't it be great if professionals would listen to the patient in front of them and find out what's really going on, rather than putting them straight on meds? I am encouraged that there are therapists like Sasha and Stella out there. Now if only ordinary people could access them.

The symptom pool seems a real thing. But also... it seems our society really have more mental disorders than before and I think it has to do with our lifestyle. So it's natural that symptoms of gender dysphoria raise as well. We are more disconnected from our bodies and nature and we have a lot of stress going on. I feel sorry for this young generation, cause this gender stuff sometimes seems like the only way they have to express themselves since they don't have a lot real life experiences.

I can't wait for their podcast. I love to hear them talk about all this. I think their insights and their thoughtfulness could be helpful for everyone, not just people into the gender stuff.

Your entrance is SOOO DRAMATIC!🤣🤣🤣🤣

I love Sasha - fantastic mannerism and calmness (and very pleasing on the eye as well)

Are therapist referring on because they are scared of getting called transphobes if they put a foot wrong? Its just so much easier to pass them on.

So lovely listening to this in 2023, after the Gender: A Wider Lens pod played such a pivotal role in my current position on gender ideology.

One of the most interesting interviews I've heard on this topic. 👏👏👏💯🆒

Gwan Stella ya good thing! Caught you at Spokes in Philly Grimes. Your a legend.

*"Client-driven"* I'm trying to give Ayad & O'Malley a chance before dismissing them, but the idea of treatment driven by a client's wants is insane and entirely subjective. That's what leads to plastic surgery disasters in celebrities. If a client-affirming approach was used for other disorders, therapists would agree the curtains were talking to schizophrenics and tell anorexics to lose more weight.

I write as a Transwoman aged 77, having had SRS in 2004 & was interested in your discussion. One of the points raised was why people are so interested in gender issues. We are in process of exploring outer space, & but the desire to explore our inner space is so much more personal & meaningful. If you want to know about Trans issues, don't ask a therapist, ask a Trans person, preferably post-op. Personally, when asked about MtF Trans issues, I usually refer to the Harry Benjamin scale of gender dysphoria, ranging from 1 to 6, which I think is very accurate. Basically up to 2001 I had never really met many Trans people, but then I started to go to Trans clubs & my eyes were opened to the Trans world where I have made many life long friends. Prior to then I had seen various psychiatrists, but I didn't think that they had a clue as to what I was feeling. What is odd is that I have met people from all walks of life, whom but for being Trans, our paths would probably never cross. Strangely enough most of the people I know well are well over 50, had been married with kids, held responsible jobs & own their own properties, & when we met up, we just don't talk about Trans issues, but anything else under the sun. Before Covid19 hit us, I had been painting pictures, some of which focused on Trans issues & gave occasional talks to groups, one of which being at a medial conference in Birmingham.

I am a bit concerned as this discussion seems to indicate an inventive environment that could result in false assumptions or "diagnosis" about child behavior and this has been at the root of many of our concerns. Certainly, severe dysphoria should be clinically addressed, but attempting to create multiple sublevels and degrees of "gender" can lead to more confusion in the future. At the very least there should be years of pure clinical studies by certified clinical psychologists.

The idea of the symptom pool makes me think of "Crazy Like Us" by Ethan Watters.

This conversations was much needed, thanks BB! What a comeback for identity as it should be conceived!

Ha! Clever ending. Great conversation, and I'm really looking forward to their podcast!

Absolutely brilliant discussion. I found your channel two days ago and every video so far has been informative and refreshing. One thing: at 53:00 autism might not be the best example of this. Autistic traits, by definition, make it difficult to communicate and have relationships with non-autistics. So, autistics create their own communities where they can understand and be understood. This is different than communities based on identities that come together out of a shared adversity because autism is a social communication disorder.

I cannot WAIT for their podcast! Thanks for introducing them Ben-- what an awesome conversation!

I immediately skipped to the end to see if you would do it. This time I'll listen all the way through.

I see BB is in full flirtatious mode. This looks as if it's going to good.

Wow, so many profound points made! Very meaningful and helpful, thank you all.

@ 15:42 We have to be careful not to assume that the symptoms are appearing more, rather than that people with symptoms are reporting more. Saying that, it could also be that there is an interpretive process happening that is creating a 'disorder', where there wouldnt have been one otherwise, in such a way that creates more problems than it solves. @16:55 I'm confused by the term 'gender dysphoria'. Most people who use it tend to accept that there is a difference between sex and gender, but most people who say they have it describe distress over their primary and secondary SEX characteristics. Why isnt sex dysphoria a thing? @41:25 My understanding is that, historically speaking, and pretty much everywhere, sexuality was not considered an identity, it was considered a behaviour. I'm not sure at what point heterosexual and homosexual became identities in western cultures (or any cultures), but i presume it was for political reasons. I understand why that would happen, but i question how healthy it is for people to feel tht they have to define themselves by their behaviours all the time. @1:00:10 Theres also the problem that what people are calling 'self' is often a highly subjective, unstable set of beliefs subject to (sometimes immense) change over time. Because so few of these social movements are grounded in anything remotely spiritual, they dont push people to do any kind of fundamental questioning, they just require them to accept certain premises and interpetations. Some styles of therapy can encourage people to question thoughts and beliefs on a more fundamental level, with the right facilitator, but they often just shift a belief pattern to one that functions better. Having a set of unquestioned beliefs that works better for you can keep you in a kind of comfortable ignorance. @1:02:21 That reminds me of something Byron Katie once said: _forgiveness is realising that what you thought happened didnt_ (or something close to that). @1:04:03 I think an identity is essentially just a story we believe at any given moment, but I think the vast majority of us clearly need to be attached to some sense to identity for healthy boundaries, and to create a sense of meaning and purpose. I dont think you _have_ to be attached to a sense of identity to have meaning and purpose. Labelling ourselves beyond what is practically needed is not helpful imo. For instance, the words 'female' and 'woman' are only important to me in as much as they communicate practical information. Knowing that i am perceived as 'female' and a 'woman' also has practical implications, but i dont go around assuming every response i have to anyone else, or response they have to me, is based upon our sexes/genders.

Interesting when they both say they’re not ‘gender critical’. I’ve been following the trans issue very closely for a couple of years and I’ve never heard anyone explain what ‘gender critical’ actually means. I don’t really understand it. Does it mean they are critical of gender as a concept? That it doesn’t (or shouldn’t) exist? That only sex exists? Great discussion btw. Love these two women.

Are therapist quickly referring on gender cases because they lack specific training? Or is it that their training focuses on finding the source of problems, but the current climate doesn't allow one to call it a problem?

I think we need eastern philosophy in order to survive in a world without group identities. "Identity" is what makes the world interesting--it's what gives distinctiveness to all the things we experience--but it is an illusion. "Your" identity does not exist, but you will express and experience an identity if you let yourself live in the world. Also, your identity is not something that you "must" align with your actions, or that must guide your actions; it is only an aspect of your experience.

I forgive Benjamin.

Great interview!

Finnegans Woke

"Dr" Benjamin I feel as if I am being Mugged watching your Mug with a Mug with your Mug. Cheers, Great interview.

wow, really interesting conversation

Middle aged men and adolescent girls mainly the ones transitioning? In Jungian terms, maybe these are attempts at integrating the anima and animus respectively?

Stella has a lovely smile!

15:21 symptom pool / cluster - i've had this idea in my head for a long time now, on how diagnosing someone with a disorder might actually make the person worse off because it validates all of the feelings, it bundles them into one neat little bundle with a scientific sounding name and creates almost a self-fulfilling prophecy (if a doctor says I have this, than I must have it and it's out of my control). I actually asked around on the psychology reddit (I know, not the best place, but I don't have any psychologist to talk this through with) and I was shut down, HEAVILY. Great to hear, it's not that much of an outlandish idea as they made me feel it is.

Brilliant discussion. More please

Love the tip of the hat to Joyce! Great podcast 👏

This is so adamantly sinister. May god save us

I made a couple comment but they appear to be automatically blocked by youtube or held in a pre-approved state by the channel. Benjamin, can you please mark one of the 2 as acceptable? Did they even show up in that manner for you or have they just been memory holed? D:

0:26 This is an intervention.

This was very interesting. Thanks!

I am watching this to study English

There's male and female. There's nothing else. You can't 'transition' from one to the other.

I wanna know what camera did the lady on the left use

Please, come to Brazil!!!

this adds a very meaningful and "human" element to this conversation, both women were both candid and thoughtful. And Benjamin, I don't like to think of you as a RU-vid star. its kinda diminishes you..

The Hairy "Benjamin" foundation?

DBT therapy is the best thing you could do for them, yourself and anybody else in my opinion. Is not just for BPD just was initially proved on it. TELLING YOU 100% I feel like all the skills within the modules are so key and need to be worked in to early child hood ed and keep working it in right through college. Most people operating on childhood coping skills mot serving them effectively as adults. Everybody gets a trophy is not working, infact... if you listen to Yuri Bezmenov ex KGB he would explain Ideological subversion and how this has been launched on western culture, for generations by many nations. One thing He talks about at university in 1984 he said the LGB will be used in the future as political and societal weapon. So.... the normalization of beyond the LGB ... T and now 72 genders of Q... We must be honest and true, to truy self realize and realize better positioned society based in truth and honesty. IMPORTANT VALIDATION RULE 🔑 We must not invalidate the valid Erodes credibility & Trust We must not validate the invalid Erodes credibility & trust You can use our MSM as perfect example to the breaking of these rules. I do think Men also have spectrum of masculine tendency to feminine and visa versa.

I hate how the conversation devolved into nostalgia for the "good old days" when everyone was religious, overcome with guilt, and bowing before the Sky Daddy. Turns out conservatives aren't really against collectivism, just a non-superstitious collectivism that threatens to put an end to gross class inequality and exploitation.

identity/persona is the problem because it is merely a mask one puts on.

I would diagnose this discussion as... myriad of assumptions. lol I'm joking. I think anything can be pathologized ? Is that the correct term? I think still community is prioritized and social media shows that. Individualism isn't really 'individualism' anymore.

So anybody could literally be a gender therapist? I can go take a couple of courses online to some workshops and there's no accredited course? Hmmm.... That's interesting..

What's wrong with having a working class identity? For at least two hundred years socialists have railed against the alienating hyper-individualism of capitalist societies. Workers of All Countries, Unite!

The repetitious plug to "buy the fancy mug" distracts attention from the serious content of this video.

I feel that Ben has such a very cool way of interviewing. And he’s extremely intelligent, curious and is a great listener. And we could really glean a lot if he had on a very wide variety of guests. Like, when he had Andrew Doyle on. Wow! What a great show that was...so interesting and hilarious at times. But, he’s gone 99% Trans and I don’t get it. Sure, once in awhile. But, it makes me feel he’s immersed in Trans for himself and not taking his audience seriously. It’s his Channel, though. But, his audience would grow crazy if he picked the Top hot issues that are current. And there are so many. Along with that comes the best people who he could interview.

Here's hoping they actually define the term "GENDER". Been trying to get someone to do that for weeks now. PS: As I listen, I find that these women seem to subscribe to the notion that "gender" can only mean woman or man, but that is not at all concurrent with the recent claims that there are unlimited "genders". Why do they seem oblivious to this notion?

A wide angle lens is required when photographing 3d wave feminists...

🇮🇪❤🎉

This "subject" is a complete lark, and has been magnified by activists in academia, early education, and the media..

Benjamin and Sasha, kissing in the tree! K I S S I N G! 🤣❤

If sex is independent of gender, how can you have a general discomfort with gender? Surely it's sex dysphoria? I am not convinced there is such a thing as gender - other than the grammatical convention. I think gender is a French, post modern invention. I think there are people who are more and less sex typical in their personality traits. People who chose to solve their dislike or unease with their sex by pretending to be the other sex has chosen one response to their problem. There are other responses. By creating, and encouraging the idea that we have a gender we are promoting the idea that people who have a problem with their sex are healthy. I don't think this is a good attitude. I think this is a means of conforming with Critical Theory AND typical of the motte and bailey technique they employ.

" huge numbers experiencing"... They read a document. Just like ADD. Students who want adderall are KNOWN to study the behavior and characteristics of those who suffer from attention deficit disorder in order to get a script for Aderral. It's obvious it's happening with people who think they're transgender. Different agenda, but same line of thought. If you go to ANY MtF forum on reddit, they ALL coach one another, including posting documents on exactly what to say to a therapist to get what you want. But it's not just a drug which speeds you up in which people seek. It's not just a stimulant. This is a scary time to live. In five years, if we continue down this path, imagine what you'll pretend to have and coach yourself to say to get from a therapist or doctor.

"We've lost religion." Christ is still there waiting. The same people who you believe have broken everything are the same ones who taught you that religion is bunk. They're wrong about that, too.

0:30 Getting flirty with Benny. We ladies just can't help ourselves. ("hello..😏)

Why is it almost always women who are so concerned with gender?