Gender, Elitist Propaganda, and Controversy in the Art World 

Thank you for bringing up this topic in such an intelligent way. Cancel culture is a true tragedy to our culture at this time.

Now THIS conversation is why higher learning should never be undervalued. Just wish the scholastic system would learn from programs like yours in creating a more efficient and effective system in learning the hands on of becoming and evolving as an artist. Great discussion! Thank you

What am amazing discusion! Listening or rather NOT listening is the big issue everywhere in society... And social media want quick fixes and lives on polarisation. The canceling cultur is raelly threatening artistic expression. It is refreshing to see a male and a female sitting together and listening to what the other person has to say without screaming YOU ARE WRONG! There has to be space for more than ONE thruth. And allways be kind to each other. And I agree...a series about fatherhood would be brillant. I will watch the space.

"Women are cooks, MEN are chefs" is what came to mind when you were discussing the gender discrepancies in the art world. I'm glad to hear that you are actively trying to correct that attitude. You would think we would be past that kind of thinking in this day and age! I only took up painting during the pandemic. One, I needed something to alleviate boredom, and two, to help me quit smoking. Two isn't working as well as I had hoped! An added bonus, though, is it helps to alleviate the stress I feel as a result of the mayhem going on in the world. I have no art training at all, but have been watching video tutorials on line from various artists, with one in particular being more in line with my feelings on the subject. I make no attempt to paint people or buildings, opting instead to paint fields and trees, and sometimes, water. Apparently my skies are fairly good, which was a surprise to me. The point is, I am being encouraged to sell some of my paintings, so I am glad to find your videos. I have only seen one other, so far, which I intend to re-watch. In order not to miss any more, I have subscribed. You seem to offer information and insight not available on other channels(?).

Would love to see a series on fatherhood!

we are all doing the best we can with the resources we have got and it is only through open discourse can we challenge our own perceptions - many of which keep us stuck. I found this conversation fascinating from an Art History perspective and as I have a clear purpose and commission in this body it is encouraging to know and begin to unpack my 'why and how my art will impact the world'. We are indeed a collective and actually nothing separates us - when we are born and as we let go of this form we are equal - and like the mycelium beneath our feet we are inextricably connected to each other.Thank you both x

So true. Someone said to me i should not obey diversity by force. I asked what she mean? Well, you paint a lot of POC as a white German. I laugh out loud, cause she did not know that this was my family! Why did you call me white and my children are What? People of colour? They call themselves brown, dark skinned and papa is black. Paint what you feel to paint. Art is free.

This Mastery Program and Art Social has changed my 68 year old life! I ❤ this family!

Two fish are swimming in the ocean when one says to the other: "I hear there is this really cool thing called Water". Similarly, we are all, men & women alike, entrenched in Patriarchy whether it is cool to say it or not. Success in art, including in business, has historically and still today been defined by masculine traits and qualities. Success and Business terminology is about power, control, domination, war, winning, killing and take-over. The Art world has always been dominated by men - until recently women who wanted to study art could not attend the Beaux Arts or Conservatory schools (nor could they study medecine or vote). The elitest superstructure is crumbling not because of growing equality between men and women but because of technology. Public commissions (grants) and musem collections have been indispensable to the survival of contemporary artists whereas before the 19th century, artists could only survive if they had private collectors (mécènes). Today the "art market" is part of an investor's portfolio based more on market value than art. Men and woman or any gender couple on the personal level must be about full-respect living, neither above nor below one other. However both men and women suffer from the patriarchal ocean we are all swimming in. Male tenderness, vulnerability, relationality, nurturance - go for it Jake, let us dismantle the patriarchy one person at a time! (my references : check out Terry Real, Relational Life Institute). BTW I'm a student of Milan Art Institute!

When I found the Milan family a while ago, I never thought they'd have the same mindset as me about world issues. I appreciate you guys even more now I know we have the same values.

I REAAALLY like Elli's mindset on putting to the world what you truly value. Like in this case, the idea of portraying the good men. Love the idea, cannot wait to see what you come up with ^.^

You dont even have to make a statement to be canceled, one of my favorite artist painted a picture of his friend with a bloody nose, she was learning to skateboard, and she fell and wacked her nose, she was ok but it was bleeding a bit. She was so proud of it she took a picture, and the artist painted it for her.....he clearly explained the story behind the painting in the comment section.....nope they dive bombed him for glorifying violence against women. Another painter i like did a painting of an adult woman ( clealry an adult) woman riding a wodden hobby horse......dive bombed said he was glorfiying pedophilia.....you dont need to make a statement anymore cause people want to be offended no matter what

Thank you very much for this discussion. It gave me much to think about. Please do continue the conversation in further podcasts.

Great conversation. Very true, and some ideas.

We are in an unpredictable times, is there really buyers out there? When was this pod cast created. I see pod casts that may say a week ago, when i know I had seen exact pod casts a year ago, when it would say when it was originally created that would sometimes be 2 years ago. I have no idea of the internet. And, yes am so tired of living on barely NOTHING. I paint daily, and try to create one-two a week or equal at least 6-8 a month. I do not have a car, laundry and market, stores not that nearby, and not a safe place to be. I have NO CLUE to sell , would rather sell prints, but don't have a printer, but willing to pay forward to have 1-3 for a small print for 40 dollars to 65 med. tax included. I do not have a phone, have not been able to afford one.. YOU SPEAK OF Starving Artist, how does one get around this, I have been "taken advantaged before " This is why it took me so long.

Finally someone speaking sense! You spoke out what I was thinking for years. Thank you!

I love this topic so much! Thank you for posting it. Lovely discussion!

Lol the contradictions in here about "when did artists become so afraid to speak their minds?" Yet Elli practically makes a case/excuse about not wanting to be political at the beginning. Artists have always been "political." Not every artist, but it's a significant historical part of society that many artists also speak out politically. It sounds like when it's convenient/good for business you will speak out, but want to avoid being political because you have a business/service. I think it isn't "wrong" per se, but I also find it far more courageous to speak out, even if your politics are different than mine, with the risk of losing followers/business, but at least you know that those people who follow you are even more in sync. I think when you veer off into talk about God and voices/visions in your head, it's a bit kooky, but I still enjoy your other content.

An interesting discussion; I like this more unplanned type of podcast - I felt that your thoughts were freer rather than pre-considered as the conversation took natural turns. When Elli mentioned how we see pictures of women everywhere, I thought of a topic that might make an interesting future discussion, but I'm struggling to articulate it! ...Can we depict a beautiful soul in art whilst painting - to put it bluntly - more ugly women? In advertising, all the women we see are beautiful so that we feel insecure about ourselves and therefore spend money on the product that will hopefully make us as pretty as the model. Dimitra's women (and obviously other artists' too) are all beautiful, and I wondered if that is a sellability choice because who would want a painting of a plain looking woman on their wall? If Dimitra painted a women who by convention's standards isn't beautiful, would people then have connotations of her being ugly on the inside? Or would women who don't look like models resonate with the picture more? I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but maybe it's a starting point!

I love all the podcasts, however, this was BY FAR my favourite. The conversation flow was just so true, and deep and thought provoking. Just fantastic ❤

Well, this podcast episode truly has lots of all short of tangents one can go for. I would like to talk about my experience when it comes to portraying men in art. As far as my own work and my own personal research, I found that artists who are non fitting with society's ideas of gender and sexuality tend to be more open to portray different subject matters than only women. I personally follow a few of my favourite illustrators, drawing artists and painters who portray men like myself in my own artwork. We all have in common that we don't fit in the ideas of society of what a man should be. And casually, most (not all!) of us are men from the lgbt+ community. The other result of my research is that there is a part of women and non-binary identities who also like to portray men. I wish my conclusions were: "Oh, you paint the gender of the subject matter you are sexually attracted to" but that's such oversimplification. It actually has to do with what you personally find aesthetically pleasing more than sexually atracted. Now, bear in mind that this is merely from my own appreciation of the artist community and my own personal story. I am by no means in hold of the whole truth. I recognise that my own "research" is not by any means any scientific study or anything like so😅 Just letting you know, there are artists who portray men. It's often the people who can't fit into the cis-het system. Or people who fit in this so-called system, but they consciously decide to be groundbreaking.

Great conversation fitting for the culture of the world.

Really great podcast! I am 72 and have seen the swings and roundabouts in society and what is acceptable and what isn't and a few decades it's reversed again. I see it everywhere, not only the art sector.

Very interesting discussion! I guess we all need to just walk in kindness and love and focus on staying positive! Thank you! Are you all living in Arizona?

Fantastic discussion. I could go on all day about the propaganda machine, mechanisms of dissemination (like art & other media), subliminal art....alllll day haha.

Wonderful discussion. Very enjoyable to listen to the reasonableness and intelligence. Thank you!

This was a Great podcast. I appreciated this. I also believe men have not been painted in Heroic sense. I have been sketching men in hunting roles and grandfather figures and young boys doing masculine things and respectful gestures to animals and small children. We need more paintings of men doing things like fishing or playing ball or camping with their children and wives. I find it very interesting to recognize that I have been concentrating on strong males. Thanks did this one

Love your conversations. It’s sad that it is how it is in society, but in the middle of it you have to be true to yourself and to God. He tells us not to fear.. iron sharpens iron.. great conversations! I appreciate your honesty and thoughtfulness .. fairness and great outlook on life and art.. ( btw.. there are some awesome western paintings of good men!🤠) 😊❤

Thank you for this.

It is an effective podcast and I admired how the conversation flow covered the connection of art with history, culture, and women's empowerment over the different eras. Though the topic was controversial, the discussion was very smooth. Cancel culture may have to be revised.

“Choose the land mines you are willing to die on” made me choke laughing. So true. Great content AGAIN!❤

Great discussion

Wonderful discussion and insights. Agreed 100% that we need more paintings of good men, men of valour, family men, men of values and honour especially by women who value and respect women. Plenty of potential there. Painting boys with their pets is a place to start, showing how boys love and care for their pets and vice versa and the bond between them. I am almost finished painting one of those and it was enjoyable showing the love flowing between them. I have always believed women can do whatever they want to do without being raving feminists and replacing one form of oppression with a reverse form by emasculating men serves no one, especially not the next generation. There is room for us all to shine..We shouldn't want to achieve success at the expense of anyone, male or female but purely on our own merit. And by the way, Eli, you are blessed to have Jake as a son-in law, he is clearly a gem, masculine but gentle and loving, a great father. You could paint him with Zion! 😊

That's fascinating about the Sabine women painting. It'll be interesting to look at all of them side by side.

Great topic! I agree that sexism is still a major issue in the art world. When I attended art school 25 years ago, it was 80% men - it is good to see more women getting into the field.

I loved this discussion

I’d love to hear Elli interviewed on the Know Thyself Podcast with Andre Duqum. He had a conversation with Steven Pressfield not too long ago and I’d love to hear where Elli and Andre could go with their conversation. Just a thought…❤

You made my day with this podcast! Actually gave me new ideas 💡 to create ❤.

Thank you sooooo much for this conversation! You are so clever and and very good human beings! Beautiful family! I love you! Thank you, thank you!!!!!!!! Let's celebrate men too!

Fascinating talk! Thanks so much. When I used to draw manga style exclusively, I ONLY drew male characters pretty much. Now I find I paint more women, but actually I prefer male beauty. However, when I paint men the way I like to, people tell me it's 'homoerotic.' As if men can't have sensuality, and as if only the male gaze (whether gay or straight) is the ONLY gaze there is! I like handsome and sensual men, as a woman!! It's been very hard to find models or men whose looks fit my style and what I want to paint. When I ask men to pose they don't want to. One male artist posted on Facebook years ago, "I wish women would paint men the way men paint women." Practically no one could find any examples of this happening. I would love to paint men the way men paint women, but for some reason even now it's considered "weird." I think it makes men uncomfortable to see their own beauty, they are very heavily conditioned to place no value on it (except for gay men, hence why people tell me my guys look "gay"...not that I have a problem with gay men whatsoever, just that I'm a straight woman portraying MY vision). Men have heavily objectified women too, and I think they're afraid to have the lens turned back onto them. In the US we've lost a sense of beauty in the erotic, now everything is raunch/p0rn culture instead of revering beauty. I don't know. This is making me want to paint some gorgeous men. hahaha Just have to find some...there were more around me in the past...

We have not changed our attitudes towards men in the past 30 years. There are serious ramifications if we don't change backward thinking and embrace men for men and women for women. So, we need to be game changers. Changing our attitudes toward "sex sells" and getting rid of the "boys club," we stand a better chance of creating harmonious relationships between the sexes.

I would like to paint a series of kings. I can't wait to see Elli's :)

Brilliant Insight

Man. Id love to learn how to paint my husband. That would be so awesome.. Also, that painting of Kanye is on point

The only rule needed: The Golden rule, simple respect for everyone. We all have different views, because we all have different experiences.

I heard it can be very ageist too and not always very supportive of disabled artist also! Great discussion!

I think the answer to all of this, as well as to many other questions, is the good old, human, rational common sense.

What I really love about art itself is that it doesn't tell the gender, age, looking of the artists. actually it‘s a language without any advantage.

I think men are every bit as aesthetically pleasing and paint-able! AND, I'm all for bringing back meritocracy. It shouldn't matter what your gender. What should matter is the quality of your work. I'm celebrating the crumbling of the elitist power structure. I see evidence of it every day, and it is thrilling. Thanks for bringing awareness to this happening in the art field.

Very beautiful work with artist of your heart. How gorgeous you are both outside and inside. Thank you . Sign up for PAINT THE WORLD 🌍

Excellent discussion. We should be working toward balance, a balance of male and female energy regardless of the gender or biology. Until we honor and respect the presence of both energies in all people, we will continue the struggle of one over the other. I have been fascinated with this subject for a long time and have pondered the possibility of reaching true balance. What a difference it would make in our world. It is up to writers and artists to help that shift happen. By the way, did you all plan to present an image of balance, of Ying and Yang with your clothing and headphones? Also the microphone stand creates an "M" a "V" and two letters "A." I am a weirdo, LOL!

What is missing in most walks of life these days is balance.

❤

can we talk? I've been painting and drawing men for 20 years.

I love how you guys just talk spontaneously about a lot topics, it makes me think and open my mind to new ideas… I personally thing painting women is more attractive for the beauty of us, I don’t find attractive to see a naked man shown his private part, (trying to be decent lol) since I think that is not very pretty, you know ? Like those statues from the Roman’s with …. Etc…. Like to pretty to see. To me. I respect if someone else like it. Anyway, ❤ I really like you both.

🤔 a woman may stir more emotions and inspiration to many artists, it’s more likely to have a female muse than a male

I would be careful saying that the reason prostitutes were used as models more because they were inexpensive doesn't really give the full picture and a little down. Art students, female often, pose but wouldn't do so if they didn't understand it to be a higher calling. Most women especially in ages past would not pose for images of their body related to modesty and those morals of the more conservative past. At my Academy we were careful to have both sexes and also ages in variety. The human body is beautiful. The most exciting set up for models is when it is a male and a female interacting for me, but not in any sense or effect of a pornographic idea. Great forms and living contrast.

I love painting men, I love there faces

Jake you are such an incredible handsome man 😊😅

I bet if I could afford to visit Lake Front art gallery in Milwaukee, still today will NOT Be able to see Realism in NATRURE accepted unless Dead or in the Process. like wolves tearing the under belly of an ELK. I seen in an Artist Magazine , a man who got GREAT reviews of his paintings of cattle meat in a slaughter house, hanging by hooks. Yet a painting of a woman is accepted as art, dirty dishes in a sink, Fruit , and Flowers still make it . But a farm scenery, the decaying history in the back ground , with cows in the pasture, NO. not accepted , But a dead bird on a hook probably placed there by a Shrike in an old wooden barn, would be accepted. Now if done like in a story book, it is accepted, more in a biblical picture, in an advertisement I have seen several times. I have seen a few somewhat like yours, more around 2017 to 2020. But not much of any thing really religious being shown. Many of our churches are starting to Close. since 2020.

I believe in valuing and loving every human being because we are ALL created by God in His image. Men and women are different yet made in that same image; each with unique gifts but ultimately serving the same purpose. I believe “isms” serve to divide.

I think it depends on the artist. Some, male or female artists, are attracted to the female form, however I find the male form incredibly inspiring! I don't think it's political at all. I think that "toxic masculinity" is the same as the "racist" accusation. The only thing that gives either any credence is to discuss them as real, so stop talking. They'll disappear!

1 wrong Tweet and you are D.O.N.E.!!!