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Claiming that capitalism creates ingenuity is like claiming that landlords provide housing.

"Graph go down, capitalism also happen, good capitalism make graph go down" - Michael, babes... you ok?

Aaron Bastani on fire schooling Michael Walker 😅🔥🔥

Ths exchange makes me want them to do a series called 'Radicalizing Michael' or something 50:48

Michael Walker certainly got schooled tonight. But the simplest point against his weak argument is that correlation is not causation.

I’m so impressed by Aaron on this episode. Changed my understanding of him entirely.

I loved that discussion between Michael and Aaron towards the end of the show. I can’t imagine being able to listen to anything like this at any other programme.

I’m glad Aaron was there to correct Michael’s bizarre claims about capitalism and child mortality. Human ingenuity creates solutions… capitalism places constraints upon them. Child deaths before industrialisation were not needless because there was no other way to live. They only become needless once medical advances mean they could be avoided.

love that discussion on Capitalism at the end

All the Novara contributors are ace: well informed, eloquent, principled. They are comfortable enough in their arguments to present the other side in a way right wing outlets don’t. It makes for intelligent, thought-provoking discussion. For me, Michael and Aaron are the premier partnership: forthright and challenging, with wry, self-deprecating humour.

Michael Walker: Correlation with regards to Capitalism and time = causation. *disregards all the other major stuff that's happened that isn't capitalism in the last 250 years* I don't always agree with Aaron Bastani. Sometimes I disagree heavily with him. But goddamn he's saying everything I want to say and more.

Brilliant arguments from Aaron at the end

Aron please may I bring you along to every argument/debate I have with a capitalist apologist

I like Denyer, she's genuine. I am 100% voting for her, she's righteous. I am so DONE with labour, I left after they got rid of Corbyn. But yea, I like the Green social and economic policy and Denyer is cool and inclusive.

Michael I love you mate but you’re such a lib

This is why i love Novara Media...a sensible debate from 2 different ideologies but with a smile and an understanding. Gotta love a mass debate!! 😁❤

Very dumb perspective from Michael on capitalism's role in progress. Slightly worrying considering he is the largest talking head on this platform... Aaron hand holding him through the nonsense of his argument is very embarrassing.

Looking at Britain from abroad... how can the Tories have had 14 years of austerity and crumbling public services and still be running massive deficits? To put it bluntly... where the f#%k has all the money gone??

All that debate about capitalism but no mention of the multiple forms of exploiitation that drives it and have always driven it..... slavery, imperialism, colonialism, racism, sexism etc

You're telling me that I can go back to a NHS where I can actually get an appointment, properly staffed schools, clean water, bins collected and I get to say goodbye to the Tories.. and it'll only cost me £1000 a year? Take my money,,,

Our Green Party in NZ have had co-leaders for decades, works very well. They also operate a heavily consensus based approach to developing policy. It all works very well because we have a proportional system of government here. They've had quite a few ministerial posts in several government, and they're frequently heard in the mainstream press. Not that it stopped our current clusterfuk of a government, but it was close.

What a brave young woman, good on her.

Suella, with the classic " I see you aren't too much of a socialist to wear shoes," attack line I heard Jeremy Hardy mock 30 years ago.

Love the debates between Michael and Aaron. I'm glad Novara isn't too ideological and that there's room for that type of discussion.

Good session this evening. Nice healthy discussion between Michael and Aaron - if this was Piers Morgan, there’d be so many interruptions and talking over each other. Well done gents 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

I had no idea Michael identified himself as a social democrat, but my own perspective as a libertarian socialist is that, just like feudalism, capitalism fits its historical period, but is outdated and is being dragged out through an era where it is becoming evident that a more modern political system is needed

THEIR SILENCE WAS SO LOUD

How do we know that standards of living for humans would not have been better, and almost certainly more egalitarian, if we had had a different economic system, such as socialism or environmentalism, for the last 500 years?

They’re probably still arguing on whatsapp 😂. Great discussion though.

47:15 - Don't want to insult her intelligence but Suella Braverman doesn't seem to understand socialism.

Michael I think all those GB News appearances have got under your skin

Jonas Salk was asked if he would put a patent on the polio vaccine and he said 'patent? could you patent the sun?'. I worked in Labs for 10 years, trust me financial remuneration is not incentivising in basic biomedical research.

was fun listening to the discussion at the end ty ty

Really great show tonight! A round table of you guys discussing capitalism would be amazing I think

A few things regarding the claim that people are better of under capitalism because of things like child mortality. Aaron was correct when talking about vaccines but that is only one small part of it. Wild animal populations will have lower infant mortality because humans had such high population density. This was mainly due to most of the people living as serfs, workers and farmers kept in poor conditions by feudal lords, and kings. After the plague and the printing press there were fewer people to work and thus people had more bargaining power and people were disceminating information at an unprecedented rate. Many other things than vaccines also helped lower this dramatically after the industrial revolution such as pasturisation, railways, anasthetics, medical techniques, sanitisation, child labour laws, welfare and pensions. Almost all of which were anti capitalist or are versatile and useful to humanity without producing wealth while simultaniously lifting living standards for everyone. So yeah, Michael. Don't wanna sound too patronising here but you're correct. Capitalism is better than feudalism 😼

Fascinating conversation in the end! Thank you both!!

One thing for certain, you can be sure that the Tories will lie about everything.

I'm not voting Starmer (or Sunak obvs), but the Tories have comprehensively failed on creating & spreading prosperity so their vaunted economic credibility is shot. It just hasn't registered that no-one's listening anymore.

I wash myself with a rag on a stick

I love it when Michael and Aaron disagree!

Interesting debate on Capitalism. For me the issue we have today - in the west particularly - is unproductive forms of capitalism that are encouraged through a lack of industrial and economic policy - or what we would call neo liberalism and austerity economics. Both are unproductive and neither are about developing productivity or improving things as much as they are about giving us bullshit jobs and making a quick and easy buck for some.

Another problem of the London to Birmingham route for HS2; it replaced a service that wasn’t particularly poor, so it was a just a colossal waste of money if that’s all that gets built

Adam wiping the floor with Michael on capitalism and it's benefits. Hands down.

Like anyone would trust the competence of Tories!

That Green politician might be a good person (don't know anything about her) but as a communicator, Jesus wept. She tied herself in knots trying to answer these soft ball questions.

Micheal is one of the best looking broadcasters 👌🏾🤩🤩

Penicillin

Mr Liberal Micheal Walker, clearly spending far too much time on GBNews. Quite depressing to watch his comments tonight.

no Michael capitalism hasn't reduced child mortality and poverty. Technology, medicine and science did that. capitalism simply allowed a small number of people to gain the lions share of the benefits of those things.

Least unhinged social democrat devil's advocacy. I love Michael, this isn't about dunking on him.

I usually go for 2mm, but now I know 1/2mm is the secret to getting the Michael Walker look!

Green party co leaders talk on antisemitism doesn't sound right-wing media ready.

Zaddy walker

Man things have changed when I first started watching this channel a few years ago I agreed with Michael but not so much these days 🤧 especially on Gaza but I so disagree with capitalism I find myself more left wing than him on many a thing.

Great that the students blanked Sueella and GBNews

Correlation is not caucasian

Im.a pensioner. Im.not any better off. The triple lock is a catch up exercise on a pension that is pretty low.. It had already been swallowed up by the rise in bills and food before it arrived this month.

In my opinion Michael came off surprisingly arrogant and stand-offish in the interview with Carla. Sad as it's so rare that Greens are given any sort of platform, even on the left. I would love if Novara could bring in some regular hosts with more environmental credentials. I normally love the analysis here but found myself pausing for a rant regularly tonight. P.S. the activist from Revolutionary Communist Party was totally right.

They should have arrested Braverman for loitering on the streets with intent to provoke, borderline 'hate march'? Bravo to the students for their restraint and for demonstrating their silent contempt for Cruella (aka the s/stirrer), The senior gentleman sat with his placard was very powerful, he was able to relay his succinct message without having to engage with her. I have to agree with Arran on the capitalism issue, but still love the way Michael steers the Novara ship, I like the fact that these discussions and differences can take place in a healthy way. Carla presented very well too, logical and straight talking, she's one to watch in the future.

Defo an episode of the office! Lmaoooooooooooooo

Great discussion about capitalism.

Carla won me over. I will be voting green 💚

The amount of money corporations extorted from people 50 bil is on the small side

Another brilliant Friday show starting become the highlight of my week 😂😂

Another great Friday show!

Dear dear Michael 👎

W/r the capitalism debate: Marx said that Capitalism was an improvement on feudalism, but it's still an awful system. Most of the problem is that Feudalism was an even worse system, which capitalists/social dems often don't realize that socialists acknowledge. I'm happy to say capitalism is better than what came before it, no problem. But that doesn't make it a good system, anymore than a constitutional monarchy (eg. Tyrant Louis XIV of France) being better than an absolute monarchy makes it constitutional monarchy the best system. Does that kind of make sense?

that was an 11 out of 10 episode! I love when they get historical and macro economic

Living standards rose despite capitalism, not because of it.

Michael seems to confuse the benefits of capitalism with the benefits of industrialization more generally. I'm not a tankie but even I acknowledge that the USSR vastly improved living standards for milions upon millions of people through a process of rapid industrialization, the pace of which could not be matched by most free market capitalist economies. This is basic dude.

Increasing quality of life following industrialization is primarily in spite of capitalism Michael, people have had to fight for every damn concession we've been granted. Also Marx says capitalism is progressive in comparison to feudalism but is only a means to an end on the road to socialism.

Horrified by Michael's comments on capitalism.

Wow I love Carla Denyar ....I was chatting with my friends on Brighton and I was bragging about how much I knew about brittish politics because I watch navaro 36:08 but I was a little chuffed when I didn't knew know the green leader. I'm glad to know her now.

Where is the evidence that Labour will raise taxes?

michael really put on the clown makeup right in the middle

I also got the Michael Walker cut.

I wonder what haircut he'd have gotten if he'd have asked for a Murray Walker...

I'm not a big fan of Suella Braverman

Michael coming across so naive that I’m in shock at what I’m seeing. I actually can’t believe he thinks his position is sensible

If the UK tax allowance had kept pace with inflation since 2021 it would be £14900.

i appreciate that nm shouldn't be a mouth-piece for a party but......Michael's questions were pretty tepid, conservative & didn't delve into real policy, similar to previous interviews with Green candidates. Carla Denyer held their own really well and gave very clear + concise response for every BBC News esque question he asked. also, just end of interview and no convo with Aaron or assessment of Greens at the current time when they're the only viable left wing party in the UK right now? pretty dang lib of you, Michael. and yr opinions on how great capitalism has been for humanity is pretty astounding, my bf and me had to pause the video every few minutes to discuss how ridiculous it was lmao

The Tories have not been good to pensioners Aaron. If you were poorer in your youth/middle age you will be a very poor pensioner. Tories have halted the triple lock when it suits them. Older people just fear change and are very open to fearmongering electoral tactics.

You could say things like goods are cheaper because of capitalism, but you can't say something like art is better because of capitalism. Not everything in a capitalist society is capitalistic or you may as well say humans are capitalist. Basically there has always been contradictions in capitalism.

Omg stop your killing me Bastani! And Michael your as cute as button with/without hair cut. That's what I say to my adult son when he's looking a bit unkempt 😉

The problem with Michael's argument is that he is associating markets with capitalism. Socialism is about ownership of the means of production. It is not a limitation on how goods and services are provided. Marxism does not rule out artisans selling their goods in a market. What matters is their ownership of the means of production, which prevents extraction/alienation of the value their labour adds by a capitalist. Since Michael has a strong interest in housing, let's call the capitalist a rentier. Whenever a workers' coop sells goods in a market, this is socialism, not capitalism. What is key to understanding the past 200 years is the explosion in surplus created by fossil fuels. The saying goes that "one barrel of oil has the same amount of energy of up to 25,000 hours of hard human labour". All metrics of standard of living, the one used here is child mortality, will go up when society is starts producing a vast surplus, and by far the biggest surplus in human history comes from fossil fuel. Going further back into history, once one farmer could feed 10 or however many, other people in society were able to start creating art, working on philosopy, working on tech, and other things higher on the pyramid of needs that drive society forward. I've not read Aaron's book but presumably the "luxury" in "luxury communism" refers to another jump in surplus from AI driven automation and a move to renewable energy, and the "communism" is an attempt to distribute this to more people than just Musk, Zuckerberg, Bezos, etc.

wait did, mike just say suella was right???????!!!!! WHAT?

Aaron sporting an Italy football shirt

What were the infant mortality rates for chattel slavery, please?

Redistributive taxation and regulation lowered poverty not the 'free market'. Gilded Era capitalism increased poverty and it was reversed by progressive policies like breaking up the 'trusts' and regulating industrial extractive activities

This HS2 had not been so macho about having the fastest train in Europe it could have easily been designed to leave the ancient woodlands alone.

I don't think there are people from Sudan going to UK. Maybe from other part of Africa, but not "Sudenn ". "Oh Sudan, Central Africa Republic, OH Congo. Oh etc." It's stupid.

Given how much editing can change someone message silence is the best way to make a point.

I think Michael makes the mistake at the end of categorising Marxists as anti-modern. A basic point in Marxism (that eludes Aaron for some reason) is that capitalism is a marvel of productivity, in this way is produces the possibility for socialist, communist, and other *post-capitalist* societies. The problem is that capitalism contains contradictions (e.g. produces more food than ever but plunges millions into periodic starvation). There are many of these contradictions, Marxists have been writing about them for a long time and mainstream economists have adopted most of them. So all of the things Michael says are valid, but so are all of the things the young activist said to Braverman. The idea is that we keep the advances in production but move beyond a system that concentrates power and distributes resources unfairly.

We just have to be careful with terms. Capitalism does not include redistributive policies. If it had been left to ‘capitalism’ poverty would have continued to rise. In the last 200 years political participation increased, the voter base expanded, & unions pressurised industrialists for meaningful change. Cleaning up the slums after the war and developing decent sanitation were implemented due to social pressure not ‘capitalism’. Capitalism has no incentive whatsoever besides the enrichment of those with capital.

Lol maybe they are going to tax the shit out of the rich

I spend over a grand a year making up for lack of local services. When people on benefits have to take out loans of thousands pounds to lay for their kids healthcare and you tell me that only costs £1,000 a year extra to fix?! TAKE MY MONEY Hell, they can have £3,000 a year extra if it fixes the NHS and social services.

We live in a capitalist world and that won't change but we need to make it fairer. We can't turn the clock back but we can shape the future for the better for all of us.

@37:23 onwards.. the lady in the red coat, totally looks suella up & down & stays silent.. says it all really.. no one wants to talk to her.. except, back at the studio, Fioana, actually calks her a war criminal to her face, brilliant.. totally out-classed.. 😂😂

Come on Michael, the statistics are boring

I jumped straight to the Suella clip. Delicious! Dear Sue..when will she ever learn?