Hi Paul. Great channel, i've really enjoyed following your journey with the new studio. I was in a studio that was using a sub and i noticed they had theirs pointed to the right (i.e the speaker cone turned away 90 degrees) when i asked him why he said it was the best position he had found havig measured the room. He said that he's even known some places to turn the speaker to face the back wall. Sorry if it's something you've tried if not it might be worth a go. Best wishes.
I could try that but I also wonder if its to also do with the sub being a dual sub so it's got a speakers left and right. I never tried angling the sub so the speakers fire at different angles of the room 🤔
I bought my GIK panels on e- bay. GIK sell seconds via e- bay at reduced price and the ones i' ve bought have been near perfect. Some handy info as per, Paul. Good luck with new setup. Cheers!
I spent almost two years getting my monitors in the best position. I used REW as a live spectral analyser and pink noise before "room correction" . The sub was the trickiest part. Ultimately positioning my sub against the front wall at 38% room width AND off the floor at 38% room height turned out to be the sweet spot! I got that tip from Neumann setup guide. I built a heavy duty stand with isoacoustics decouplers for the sub.
Ahhh so you raised the sub as well? 🤔 Never even thought of that. It's funny cause I'm trying to nail it in stereo knowing that down the line I'll be adding in 9 more speakers into the mix haha 😅 But my thought is if I get the low end right in stereo then hopefully it'll still make sense in immersive. So far I've not tried flipping the phase of the sub and repositioning, sub height adjustment and having the angle adjusted as the sub is 2 sided L+R so maybe firing the sub at a different angle may help 🤷♂️
@PaulThird I'm not sure about the angle idea... my sub has one driver and I have pointed it to the side as recommended by Neumann. Phase is the most important part of sub setup... you should get your main monitors in their optimum position before adding the sub.
Things got better because you moved your listening position back 15 cm. Not because you moved your speakers. You said, "that's just from speaker position," but that's not correct. Otherwise, great analysis.
Thanks for taking the time to do all these measurements and sharing the results, it takes a lot of time... I have been using the Sonarworks Reference 4 for some years, and after changing some placement in the room I'm always hesitant to do re-measurements because it is very time consuming and a bit tedious 😲🤣🤓 For fixing the low end I would say, make sure to place bass traps in all corners of the room, floor to ceiling if possible (sometimes you have to skip a door in the way of a corner, it's ok 🤷♂), also could be the "corner" between wall and ceiling... Good luck with your room treatment journey 🤓👍
I remember doing this in my room. Moving the speakers really makes a huge difference. Even tilting the speakers up and down made a huge difference too. That was 5 or 6 hours well spent 😅 in the end you just got to settle for the “least bad” option
Just got Sonarworks and measured my monstrosity of a room. Was kinda confused by the concept of the software at first cos I'd already mastered my tracks, then added Sonarworks afterwards. Now I know it's only for monitoring purposes and should be mixed into and turned off before exporting. I found dialing the Wet/Dry knob back to 68% helped improve my mixes better than all the way on. Very interesting video pal and gonna take more measurements after some rearranging to see if I can flatten my curve a bit more.
hmm. I think those glasses might cause a standing wave right in front of your face - have you considered maybe having one lense slightly more foward than the other? :D
What a lot of engineers (including myself) overlook when doing room correction EQ is the human element. i.e. You're also correcting for your ears. For instance, my flattened speakers caused my mixes to translate with too much low-mid, dull highs, and too much low end. So it took me a while (months) to gradually adjust the correction until I could trust that my mixes would translate well and sound extremely balanced. My most recent mix came back with zero revisions desired by the artist. Can't get better than that. 😂 Thanks for the vid Paul. 👌
Oh, I also want to mention resonances in rooms. That's something auto-correction tends to overlook and it generally puts a broad dip instead (it uses averaging, unfortunately). Sometimes you just need a narrow cut to deal with a room resonance and it'll sound much better. My room has an issue at precisely 116.4 Hz. Very fine resonance. It was really annoying how it rang out and no amount of acoustic treatment would null it any amount.
Yeah my only focus now is trying to fix that low end dip so I can get to a point where I don't really need the correction when listening in stereo. It's like an equation im yet to solve and it plagues me 🤣
@@PaulThird Room treatment never ends. It's like the "never ending story". It keeps on going and going haha. Whether it be buying more acoustic treatment or re-adjusting your correction EQ, it just keeps on going in the same way as upgrading studio equipment. 😂 Perfection will never be attained.
I have two GIK panels, which were bloody expensive, so I looked at the design and thought, 'I can make these, equally light weight and cheaper', so I made another six, for less than I paid for the GIK's. I had been seriously considering Sound ID Reference as a way to visualise and improve the response of my room... (rented flat, so all accoustic treatment is on stands). I eventually settled for Genelec 8330A Smart monitors, which are equipped with DSP for room correction. The difference I can hear in my space using calibrated speakers is is simply astonishing. I would highly reccomend room/ speaker calibration as a total no brainer.
In your mixing room graph there is a difference between your left and right speaker. I had something similar. To fix it used the EQ on the monitors themselves to match the speakers with each other, and then calibrated them both with Sound reference. That way when the software is disabled your speakers are at least balanced with each other.
I've not got many dsp options on the kali speakers in the atmos room. Just shelves (low cut/boost & high cut/boost) For the little NDM's there is no dsp unfortunately
Yep. SBIR is crucial - and forget about the 38% rule, just listen to clarity and dimension. I ended up at give-or-take 38% from the back wall btw. Never would have tested that in the firat place.
I ended up moving the entire desk a meter or so from the back wall and brought it a lot further away from the left wall. Tried to center the desk as much as possible and I'm way happier with the results, especially with the low end. The Kali IN-UNF is practically flat when measured with sonarworks
I just checked out Eric Valentine's insane journey of this same thing. I was great to see what he achieved, but heartbreaking to see something I doubt I could ever pull off. What a journey though. Holy cow. Highly recommended watch.
@@PaulThird without the millions: you actually can build tube traps for not a lot of money. This is what I'd do to sort low frequency issues in the room. 😀
No what Rob tube traps is genuinely what I need cause the back wall of the atmos room is all glass and a door I can't get traps in the corners. How do you build a tube trap??
3 месяца назад
@@PaulThird Eric has some videos about that! He actually buys giant tube insulation.
The comb filtering is caused by the sub not being in line with the speakers, if you imagine your stereo field like a bubble in the case of atmos, you want your speakers to be on the outside line of the bubble, all speakers should be placed along the edges of this bubble, id also recommend room eq wizard and a reference mic and you’ll get far more accurate measurements along with a tonne of other tools to help you figure out what’s going on. If you need the sub further back, play pink noise through the speakers and the sub, slowly move it backwards, you’ll see a notch developing keep moving it back and forth until you find the point where the notch disappears.
Tried having the sub in line with the speakers. I actually had that setup first but it didn't make anything better. That's why I played about with quarter in the room and then right up against the wall I'll try the pink noise technique though, that makes sense
@@PaulThird also what’s the crossover on the speakers and the sub, there might be cancellation if the crossovers aren’t aligned properly. Also try getting it to the point where the notch is the deepest and flip the phase of the sub.
See I was thinking that. In the manual kali advise to use the 80hz hpf option when using the sub. I was wondering if it was a crossover issue but I'm gonna try the sub at different angles as its 2 sides. Maybe firing the 2 speakers at a different angle might help 🤔 Also in regards to the phase flip on the sub I was gonna try that. I suppose I could put it in the quarter room position with the L+R 50cm off the wall. When I tried that I got a REALLY big null. I was like wow.. That's ridiculous but never thought of flipping the phase of the sub.. Dunno why. Tbh my heads been up my arse recently
15:58 that high end slope is so interesting very similar to my in8 i don’t think its the concentric tweeter but maybe an artefact of using the dip switches (i attenuated the treble plus the bass rear proximity switch, because i found them overly bright compared to my old Alesis active mk2)
I'm just finished treating my brand new garden studio and I can't recommend Acoustic Insiders 'Bass Hunter' and 'Phantom Speaker' techniques enough. These will identify your optimum listening position and your optimum speaker positions and it will cost you nothing but a bit of time. You then do the best you can afford with acoustic treatment using the free REW software as a reference and then finally fine tune it to your taste with something like Sonarworks or I use Ik Multimedia's Arc 3. That's it. You can do no better. 😎
Seeing your speakers sitting on boxes reminded me of a Colt Capperrune video I watched yesterday, where he tested the frequency responses in his room by changing how the speakers were mounted... "The shocking sound difference between speaker stands"
That video was so entirely silly. That guy is the king of picking the fly shit out of the pepper and getting in way over his head. He is a huge victim of not noticing an issue until he sees it on a graph. In his own words "I thought my room sounded great until I saw the analysis" That is the kind of thinking that gives a GIK sales rep a total chubby. His recent studio build vids have had me rolling my eyes so hard they are in the wrong sockets. Spends tons of money solving nothing while his cables are just stretched across the floor in a pile "Y'all lemme know if ya got a solution fer this stuff, ok!" His studio looks like a dentist office waiting room and he cant figure out cable management? Jesus Christ!
Congratulation Gordito, nice room! which speaker are u using for atmos? the Kali?? the way you present this video I think is way more balance between science and personal experience..even tho acoustics is such a crazy and in many cases unpredictably realm as you know ...good video...speaker position is so crucial.... and toe in may surprise you... the 90 degrees on many cases is not the best... how big is your room?
The atmos room with the kali LP8 & LP6 is 3.46 x 2.85m. Control room a lot wider I've decided to make custom bass traps out of the kali speaker boxes to try and make thicker bass control to see if that helps in the atmos room Its a very difficult room with it's own obstacles but I've treated it as best as I can and hoping these thicker bass traps will help as that 100hz dip will continue to plague me
The walls of my room are bare, I didn't get into construction work because I'm at home. there are 7 panels on the ceiling of my room, 12 pieces of 60x120 cm rock wool, 9 pieces of 50x50 Panels, 1 piece of 50x100 Diffuser and 4 pieces of basstrap on the walls of my room. my room is almost too flat at 20 khz with 500 hz. At 200 Hz, a height in the December range of 500 to 100 hz is available, while a 6 db elevation is available. No matter what I do, I can't fix it.
I am using Ik Multimedia ARC3, pretty good for ironing out bass inconsistencies, but they have no system correction for Windows sound which is a bit annoying. Using the pedalboard 2 software for creating a VSTi chain as a crutch so everything goes through correction but with added latency. Q: is there anything apart from measuring that the Ref Mic is good for?
you cant fix nulls……its a null for a reason. Eq adjustment in those nulls will not do anything bar make your speakers get to its spl limit much easier….i would rather have a narrower null, than a wider one as it means more of the sound is in that null compared to a narrow one. i would use the newer sonarworks to eq those nulls back to zero, rather than compensate for them by the eq being say 10db over zero if its 10db under
Yeah I try and find wherever I can get both to work with the least amount of bass null even if it means having the speakers closer to the back wall as I'd rather have more low end caused by low boundary interference than a null as at least that way the correction is reducing amplitude of that frequency range instead of boosting it to fix a null which in the low end means that you are making the speaker work a lot harder thus creating more distortion and also decreasing headroom in the digital domain which means that you need more gain from your DAC. A deep low end null is your worst nightmare for so many reasons.
Hey paul , I just skimmed through the video so I am not sure if you tested the kalis on the desk and what your results came up with...Cause I was wondering if that dip at 1kh possibly could be the actual speaker , some speaker crossovers do show up in real world test.
Use REW instead and measure each speaker at a variety of positions. measurements are instant and only include one sweep per measurement. it seems to me that you need to tweak listening and speaker positions quite a bit more. also 2 subs instead of one will probably help
The control room I don't give that much of a fuck about as I mix 98% on headphones anyway but the atmos room I really want to get low dip sorted
3 месяца назад
@@PaulThird I know the wS 6.2 doesn't let you, but you should really try moving the crossover point to the middle of the huge dip. There is a great article called "the elephant in the control room" by sound on sound that explains it quite well. I intend to buy a sub just to fix my 100hz dip! Hope it helps!
@PaulThird HAHAHAHA!! Wasn't expecting that. Although it does somewhat remove certain of my doubts about the ethics of such an arrangement. i'm guessing not everyone would choose the honest route, so well done. I do have a sound-isolation question, on the complete opposite of the extremes, Could I pick your brain?
@@PaulThird It took me 3 hours to do my 1st reading and if you have to do adjustments :( Mind my room is quite hard to do as i have a couch and desk in my listening spot And it can be awkward with the couch getting spot and the circle to line up lol But the noises drive you insane lol I have just started using Ground control Sphere which is an amazing bit of software for Atmos setups and they are going to be putting room correction into it eventually..I can talk to the guys there if you want to review it but it is mac only at the moment :( But they have plans to make it for windows:)
@@PaulThird My Partners in USA are having the same issue with everything working well with Mac but not Windows.. Ground Control Sphere is the perfect partner for Atmos saves a fortune with hard ware controllers ... I use it with a stream deck and its mega.. They have told me that there will be a Windows version but making sure that the system is 100% with mac is there priority at min... Then they will look at windows..
Why are you recomende sonarwoks with studio monitor for make them flat and do not for the headphones? . Because when we use sonarwoks make the headphones flat but not realestic but wen we use it with can opener mix ingeniere prest not just for the cross talk but efect in the frequency respond of the headphones and make the midrange mor realstic ?
Using sonarworks for speakers is about correcting resonances. The ideal aim for speakers is to get as flat a response as possible. using sonarworks for correcting headphones the same way makes absolutely no sense as there are no room resonances in headphones, so it's flattening a predetermined frequency response. Undetstand that a headphone is calibrated to have a very specific frequency response. Most have hifi curves and some have curves more related to harman which is all about achieving speaker response in headphones. Headphones aren't monitors in a room, and monitors in a room arent speakers attached to the sides of your head. So if you flatten a headphone frequency response it will not give you speaker response. It's simply a correction of the curve that's been calibrated. Think of it this way. You take a pair of headphones that are "perfect" harman curve. You flatten that curve you now don't have harman curve. Its all about context and reminding yourself that a flat speaker response in a treated room with a sub is much different to a pair of headphones only coming into your ears. If sonarworks flat calibration resulted in a "perfect" harman curve then id reccomend sonarworks for headphones
@@PaulThird thank ❤️ . I khow but i said if the sonarwoks curve use less but with can opener make sound realestic not just for crossfeed but help the frequency respond to add low end and high . And make midrange more realistic . In my opinion this combo amazing . Beacuse to get the perfect harman curve for my dt 990 pro i whold copy the seting eq from amir audioscience and it the same with sonarwoks just the deferent in the midrange . And with i ad can opener i get the same frequncy from audio science ? . To get best harman curve is confusing me 🫤 . In your opinion with plugin has beter harman curve . And the problem with mixing in headphones the frequency respond is deferent from pair to pair in the same module 😢. And i heard and the old earpad can effect the frequency respond 😢 . Sory for my english 🙏🏻❤️
@@PaulThird you said in the one vedio . The realphones has best calibration . And in my dt 990 pro has the same calibration on sonarwoks and realphones . The deferent in high realphones bit harcher and reduse less high end and reduce more low end than sonarwoks?
@@PaulThird ah thanks i anderstand . If i use realphones with dt 990 pro can lern mixing and mastering professional and than upgrad to the hifiman ananda nanos?
The prevalence of Sonarworks and ARC, REW etc has caused a plague of people LOOKING at how their room sounds way too much. It's not a bad tool but it should not be the main indicator of what you should do to treat a room. Testing mics and software do hot hear the way your ear and brain do. The software can point out some mathematical issues and certain freq resonances, cancelations etc but rely on your ears more than that graph. Your eyes are going to want it flat and it just never will be. Absorb over EQ. Avoid Over EQ. Try not to Boost Eq ever (in my opinion) and use a laser to time align multiple speakers especially subs and mains from your listening position. Both Sonarworks and ARC OVERPROCESS to me and neither one can do a single thing about phase cancelations and nulls. At some point you just got to mut on records you love they sound of and say "sounds good to me" and work in your space. Your brain will compensate for a lot if you aren't looking at a graph with a bendy line on it.
There's a video coming out in a couple weeks about this as I've been testing ARC 4 which sounds a lot more natural than sonarworks, and there's a lot of science as to why that is. All ill say is that ARC 4 doesn't over process but sonarworks does. ARC 4 focuses on correcting phase coherence and constructive interference. That's why when you switch ARC on you still have the sound of your speakers but it sounds more solid and tonally accurate. Sonarworks focuses on purely amplitude deviation and don't cater for any timing of phase coherence which is why sonarworks sounds sounds phasey, unnatural and over processed
@@PaulThird That has been my experience too. I've been using Arc since version 2 (now on 4) and it has improved a lot with every version. I still try to lean on it very lightly and often will still mix with it off. There is a lot to be said about just learning how your room sounds and working without correction.
So even though I spent a long time on it and put a lot of work in.. Its pointless content cause I was paid to make it in the first place? Means nothing that it was stuff I was doing anyway?
wow, you made so many measurements with the SoundID, you ended up cookoo. ..why you did not do one measurement with REW at the listening position and calibrate the position of the speakers and the do the Sound ID calibration.... holy cow, 20 mins of sweeps by so many times....
Cause I'm a literal person and this was the way I was doing it. That's how I work. I read somewhere that the sonarworks calibration file doesn't work in REW and then I was gonna have to learn how to get sonarworks mic to work in REW as well as learn to use REW. I just don't have the mental capacity to try to get all that to work right now. I'm completely overworked right now. 80 hours a week minimum so as much as sonarworks took time, I didn't have to think much about it. Even when doing the measurements my mind was on other things. It's non stop just now
@@PaulThird well, yes, if you are not familiar with REW can look pretty overwhelming at first look … I get that… I was just referring to capture 1 sweep at your listening position that is the most important and see in REW the response, that will take you 30 secs instead of 20 mins plus.. maybe there are other programs to do that that are easier than REW… once you find a good read that you like… then you do all what are you doing with soundID… basically saying these to save you time and don’t get busted with so many sweeps for so long
@@PaulThird I think for just getting a measurement of a freq response would not be so hard and you will move way faster to position different speaker placement and even Moving some panels if you think May create an effect and then when the read looks great , then just do your soundID calibration !!! Yes is a lot of time and if you built your panel is overwhelming… but then you will feel Better and have a great bond with the room
