Getting the midrange in a $20K speaker right 

I´m "Magnus from Sweden" who asked the question in this video. Thank you Paul and everyone who gave good and useful information and tips in the comments (except for a few condescending comments, I guess there will always be a few people like that)! My speakers are three way floor standing speakers, but I do not feel like naming them since I´m not sure if it is the speakers, the room, or perhaps my preference, and I don't want to give them an unjust bad rep. I can however add that I have an Accuphase C-2150 preamp with tone controls and if I increase the bass a little with the 100hz tone selector button active, the midrange sounds great, but now the low end is a little too much instead. So I seem to have a dip in the low midrange in relation to the low end. I plan to try both room treatment and DSP to fine tune this and then I think it will sound great. I also bought Pauls book The Loudspeaker with the companion audio files to see if I can do more work with speaker adjustments. At the moment I prefer the somewhat boomy bass with the tone controls active over a thin midrange, but of course with DSP and/or room treatment that should be possible to fine tune. I am considering buying a MiniDSP SHD Studio with Dirac as a start. Then I can measure my room and identify the problem and also do small adjustments. I know Paul are not an advocate of Dirac but I think it might be worth a try if used moderately.

He actually could be used to a coloration of sound over the years.

A good subwoofer with crossover works wonders with midrange believe it or not.

I think it's the combination between speakers en listening room. Tried to test the speakers in another room and then listen to see if the midrange sounds better. I have often experienced that a speaker sounds great in one room and bad in another room.

Same is with recording, mixing and mastering. Midrange is the hardest part of the spectrum to get right.

I'd pull the speakers closer together and give them less toe in for starters.

This was the best question for the last few weeks; the answer and explanations was really good.

One option to consider is adding an equalizer to your system to help boost the midrange response. Schiit Audio has 2 equalizers that have been given very positive reviews-the Lokius and the Loki Max. The Lokius (which I own) costs $299 and offers 6 bands of frequency adjustability. It’s very quiet, unlike the equalizers of the past. An inexpensive component that can make a big difference. Good luck!

I'd almost start with speaker placement. Setting different distances between the speakers can change your mid range, from how it plays the room differently. Room correction could be needed, as you have stronger frequency gains different from the old ones; reverberating around the room differently now with the new speakers. Some speakers seem to not like certain room sizes. Sadly maybe the sound signature of the speakers aren't to your tastes.

Probably just confusing thin with outstanding elevated crisp clarity!

The better the system the more revealing it becomes, so shows up poor recordings for all their flaws. Not all recordings / production is equal. 😊

I wonder if just buying a simple 10 band equalizer wouldn't solve his problem.

The first place to look, IMHO, is always acoustics.

It's good to have a good dealer. I'm in the UK and demoed 5 speaker brands in the showroom over a 2-3 hour session, decided on my favourite (the one I initially went in for) then they let me take them away for home demo so I could be sure I'd made the right decision. They let me keep the demo pair for as long as long as it took for the speakers to be manufactured and shipped. Fabulous service. I appreciate that we don't all have that luxury, but spending large amounts... it has to be heard before buying really. (PS. the mid-range is stunning on the pair I went for.... the Marten Parker Trio).

This is a classical way that audiophiles end up on the spending carousel. I fear for this man's marriage and wish him all the best. Perhaps Danny can help him out.

The question is, “what is right?” The listener’s idea of what the midrange should sound like varies from listener to listener.

It's usually much easier and cheaper to have two sets of speakers than having one to do everything right. Or you can just use an equalizer.

Take room measurements and start from there. That FR will tell you a lot and what can be most possibly done to fix that issue. Most probably a dip in the upper bass or lower mids or something elavated making frequencies next to it sound recessed. This is one of the cases room measurements will tell you more than anyone else can.

From my experience, the only way to high quality midrange is midrange horn powered by compression driver. I had tons of speakers (even some OB) and nothing got even close to the performance of Klipsch LaScala midrange horn (of course vintage wooden build, not actual MDF trash).

The midrange is where the music lives. Clarity in the midrange is the single most important factor in making the sound sound "right". Often an anemic midrange can be corrected with a graphic equalizer - or even tone controls. Hope Magnus sorts this out and finds musical joy again.

I have Focal Sopra 3's which indeed are more expensive than yours and I noticed the same thing. Not only thin, but harsh sounding also, especially with orchestras where the brass sections play loudly. I found that diffusers on the side and front walls calmed the midrange down a lot. Basically sheets of foam rubber. And not an expensive solution.

To Magnus, I know exactly what you are talking about! Especially with the „heavier“ side of rock, my system appeared thin and „unmotivated“ whereas it truly excelled in Jazz and more soft rock pieces. What I have learned is, that for my speaker it was an issue with the power amplifier. Unfortunately I have not yet published my last video in English due to the poor performance of my English video in the T+A M200 monoblocks compared to the German one. But feel free to reach out so I can share my learnings. And to you English speaking folks, if you want to see my content in English, let me know in the comments of my videos 🙂

Sometimes knowing the price range affects the perception of the midrange.

Hej Magnus. I had also very expensive speakers - but it simply did not work, at least not in my room. I sold them at built my own Open Baffle speakers using Phy-HP full range unit. No cross-over and a fantastic midrange. All the best from Copenhagen

Also it can take a while for your ears to 'retune' to the new speakers. Took a while for my ears to retune to my Elac (poss, because of the tweeter), but when they did there was no turning back. My 3 ways sounded much warmer than my 2 ways also.

I’m using Audirvāna into my system. I have a 32 band equalizer and an extra 3 db at a hundred hertz warms up the midrange nicely.

"Magic and truth is in the Midrange. It's the emotion and soul of what makes a great song and great mix. Everything else is candy " 🙏🏻 -Jack Joseph Puig

Paul, Love the PS Audio rug!! It would look great in my listening room. Ever think about offering them for sale. I would buy one in a minute 😄

A similar thing happened to me. I replaced my speakers with much more expensive speakers based on reviews. I eventually got around to doing an A/B comparison of the new speakers with the old. When I did, I was shocked to hear that the old speakers were far better than the new. The new speakers had boomier and muddier base, and were much more colored in the midrange. Female voices just didn't sound as good. I tried to fix the new speakers with subwoofers and equalization but nothing I did made them sound as good as the old ones. I eventually sold the new speakers (at a loss) and kept the old. Never again will I buy any stereo component based on reviews.

If you can't return the speakers start thinking about tone controls. A simple 7 band EQ can fix a lot.

I have the exact same problem. Upgraded my whole system, detail and image are excellent now, but the mid-range sounds thin compared to my old $1,500 system. I think I am going to try to use room correction software after applying some room treatments.

Arnie's Genesis 1" ribbon tweet is my fave. Super sweet; colored, no doubt, however the richness made up for it IMO.

I have a pair of Cerwin Vega LA165, the newest bookshelf with a 50-watt stereo DAC/amp via USB from my desktop PC, and the entire soundstage, including midrange is wonderful to me. The entire amp and speaker setup was only $650. If he has thin midrange from a very expensive $20k speaker pair, I would definitely return the speakers, in my opinion.

Integration is the difference between good and great! Setup is also a big deal.

As I've been told by so many, "Musical reality from recorded music lives in the mid-range."

Tekton has got the midrange right and at a reasonable price.

I'd like to hear a speaker with a Dome-Midrange. Done right, I hear they're quite precise.

He's gone way past the point of diminishing returns. As Harley Lovegrove said, listen to the music not the equipment.

you could try a couple things placement of speakers tilt them back about 5° and maybe block the port or partially block the port with her piece of foam or sock sound like the two analytical we could try a resistor if they have by terminals kitchen omd 1.4 ohm 50w resistor type from the bottom terminal to the top terminal on the plus just connect the wires to the bottom terminal if that's the woofer

I would try new speaker placement, acoustic diffusers on the front wall and EQ.

I think the problem is he's pre set built in passive cross over which high end towers depends on my system I always use a active cross over & graphic equaliser with multiple power amplifiers to set the cross over points myself so I can dial in the system and alter to suit the acoustic of were ever the speakers are 😊

Funnily enough, years ago I had a thin sounding midrange on my Monitor Audio Silver 8 speakers using a NAD pre and power amp combo. I changed to an integrated AV amplifier with worse specifications (Yamaha RX-A2040) and the midrange sounded much fuller, so I kept it instead…

I'm truly wondering who these people are that drop 20k on a system they haven't extensively listened to

If money was no object I’d fly to Boulder and tour the factory and listen to the complete systems there. The trip would be money well spent. There aren’t many audio companies that cover the sound reproduction chain from mic to speaker.

Hi Paul - nice vid -- It looks like you are still tweaking this listening room. More absorption, more base traps AND surprisingly Q7D less diffusion? The speakers are very long way into the room (relative to what most could replicate). It looks like you closed off access to the resonators, but the front wall corners are still closed off. It would be interesting to hear about your room's journey and what you and your guys are having success with and what (like resonators) you have found less useful. Profiles absorption panels - thinner at the top and thicker at the bottom etc... vs constant thickness.

Music's Midrange = MAIN EVENT!!! 😉

Warmth and depth to the mid-range happens in the woofer. could be at a critical cross-over point but would think a speaker at this price range would be flat. Seems the science in speaker and amplifier design has moved more towards analytical over the years. if the woofers are not too large 6-10" i would think a little EQ bump 1-2 Db in the 500-600 Hz. range should help.

(1) Look at basic design. I chased 3-way tower speakers for 15 years seeking the sound I wanted. I went through at least 5 pairs from $4k to $12k. Nothing sounded good to my ears. It was a disjointed sound and speakers that were too hard to position in my 3 different medium sized listening rooms. Desperate, I finally listened to someone I trusted and purchased (without hearing them) a set of British dual concentric speakers for $8k. It was a revelation, everything fell into place. Wonderful dynamics, easy to position, great dispersion and soundstage. I added two $1k REL subs and found nirvana. Sometimes you just need to get lucky. Everyone's ears are different. Everyone's room is different. Everyone has a different budget. But everyone buying speakers deserves to do a proper test of dual concentric (other than KEF). Like Tannoy, Fyne, Zu, MoFi, etc. Also don't overlook other unique design choices -- Klipsch, Magnepan, MartinLogan, . Step out of the 3-way speaker box. Listen to speakers in different venues. Beware of rear-ported speakers. (2) Analyze your room acoustics. Experiment with speaker positioning. Take notes, do blind tests. Try tilting speakers back a few degrees. (3) At some point you have to hold some variables stable. Get yourself a well-matched pre/amp/source. (This is why I love PSAudio electronics -- they are obviously carefully matched and they seem like they are voiced by the same ears -- very consistent. If you pay more, PSAudio gear doesn't sound different -- it sounds better.) Carefully consider power sources-- like PSAudio PowerPlant/Regenerators. Try to stick with CDs/SACDs or Streaming. It sounds better and more consistent than vinyl for the same budget. Vinyl is too complicated, too much work, too many variables, keep it simple until you settle on your basic system. Vinyl is for rich people with a lot of time on their hands. 🙂 Good luck to us all. It's a great time to be an audiophile.

My first guess would be that of others, if your main experience is your old speakers then you might have gotten used to how they sound. And apart from all the things Paul talked about (so I don't have to repeat that), there's also distortion in/from the drivers and that's what's coloring sound. There's even a difference between odd and even harmonics in how people (or rather their brain) psychoacoustically feel/react to the odd and even harmonics. I would get a basic $100 microphone for measuring and a software like REW (free) and see if you can based on the frequency respons in the room at your listening position (as well as a measurement of a single speaker!!) to see if there's a difference between the old and new. If there isn't, then no correction like DSP (could make it far worse) or sound treatment etc can really fix it, it's the drivers (that's probably a whole lot better/transparent in the new). A new crossover can theoretically change things, but if the frequency respons is even and you want to keep it even, then you would have to push the drivers into distortion just to get harmonics that colors the sound (bad and tedious idea). In the end, changing things like placement of the speakers and room treatment might be the easiest/cheapest way to 'move it around a little', if you're going to buy new equipment then you might aswell go for different speakers.

At that price you should be checking for professional room treatment. It'll help incredibly with making sure the equipment you bought sounds as it should

I used to be dissatisfied with my systems midrange reproduction. Male vocals lacked ‘chestyness’. Stringed instruments lacked body. I rectified the issue by swapping out my Delta Signa DAC for a resistor ladder DAC!

Hey Paul, is there any chance that the room acoustics could fix it for him?

In this case the right solution is to measure the speakers both nearfield and in the room. If they indeed measure thin you can do changes to the crossover or even do some adjusting with a equalizer to balance things out. I am astounded at how few people who actually have expensive hifi systems do not have a clue as to how they measure in their spaces. Both room treatment and tailoring the sound will make a world of change for the better to an even modest system setup.

An equalizer (software or hardware) may be worth a try, to emphasize the midrange just a bit.

Might not be a popular reply, but use EQ settings to fix the midrange. Yea I get it audiophiles don't like EQ and especially on 20k speakers... but it might solve the problem.

Find a quality pair of bookshelf speakers with the midrange that suits you, then run them in conjunction with your main speakers (A&B). Then you have the best of both pairs.

Try DIY and create speakers perfect for your personal likings.. Loved the midrange of my KEF speakers and managed to create DIY speakers with the same beautiful midrange but more beautiful and crisp high range without ever being fatiguing due to extremely low distortions.

Mid range is only hard if you want to do it right. An idea midrange should cover from 200hz to 6500hz. Do so with minimal mass, maximum sensitivity, minimal distortion, and excellent dispersion characteristics. It's not even particularly hard to do, you just don't see many off the shelf components that will do that beyond planars.

I live this kind of situation… my midrange seems unbalanced, too loud for voices if I increase the volume…

Here is the challenge for all of us. Our rooms and the recording quality. I went the route of setting up 3 rigs in my 1100 sq ft condo. 3 different rooms with 3 different speakers. All speakers will be comprised in a certain aspect. Why limit it to getting great sound out of one pair of speakers in one specific room?

It's a lot of money but if you think about it.. it can be a 1 time buy. Most people finance new cars every 5-10 years. If you buy the system behind Paul you will probably have the best system of anyone you know for the rest of your life. I still use stuff from the 70s for the most part.

If a $20k speaker can't do midrange right, you paid too much.

20k loudspeakers is a lot of money, the incredible thing is to have the loudspeakers for half price and have enormous qualities that make the 20k or more expensive loudspeakers sweat 😅.

First it should be defined what midrange means in terms of Hz range It can vary and actually i have seen 7" cone midranges and 2" dome midrange with different ranges covered

accoustic of the room? I heard that to have 5ms delay on the first bounce of wall is about 70 cm measured to front of the speaker to the wall... That setup tends to cancel in my situation ~1kHz and harmonics... Double the distance, and I've noticed ~250Hz and less to be disturbed... Maybe move the speakers will do the trick? Maybe your room needs a treatment? Not everyone have that done right... Me included xD What materials are in your room? "All at all it's just Another brick in the wall"? ;-)

Magnus Carlsen is into hifi... Nice.

I would probably get REW and see what is the frequency response in the room. There is a chance the man got so used to previous, over-mid heavy speakers that now he is complaining, or maybe the room has some stuff in it which cancels mids. Also, I believe for those who don't have dedicated listening rooms with plenty of space and options for speakers positioning, its the bass which is hardest to get right and even. Even with FR30s Paul had to get a sub for the room to make it even?

Those thick soled sneakers are really bad for your back, but this is an audio video, and enjoyed it :)

Magnus - where are you? We are here to help you and really curios what type of speakers you have :) You don´t buy expensive speakers without listening to them so it must come down to speaker placement and/or acoustics. Did you have your old speakers in that same location/house? /Sweden too :)

dont you guys use eq to correct such mistakes or adjust the sound according to your personal taste ?

My prime suspect is the electronics especially the DAC and preamp..inter-connectors could also be the problem, I wouldn’t blame the 20k speakers..

Add some subs to the system, this fixed my midrange, don't ask me why because I don't know.

fact, 100% pure truth

Maybe the speaker company could get someone who could see if placement could help. If that doesn't work audition some different speakers. Maybe try a different style of speaker some horn loaded speakers have excellent midrange but probably wouldn't have the imaging the speakers you have now have.

Speaker cabinets that are not made of wood, like plastic has a thin sound. Then to partly fix the problem, get a good amp. A Classe amp sounds thin, but sounds good on real bassy speakers. Tweeters that are not dome tweeters can sometimes sound thin. Woog or paper wood woofers dont sound thin. Get a tube pre amp, or tube amp. A thin or bright speaker, you spend a lot of money to partly fix the problem. Could be most new dacs sound a little thin. B & W speakers are bright. Maybe all your cds are thin.

I know that it might feel like you shouldn't have to worry about it at this price range, but has the writer given the speakers enough time for proper break in? Midrange and bass can change SUBSTANTIALLY over 100 or more hours of play time.

20 K for speakers they should be and better be ....AMAZING !

Its so sad ppl ignoring the room aspect. Most think get $$$$ speakers and you will reach the audio nirvana. First fix your room.

Difficult finding the absolute Best sounding Speakers for Your specific listening Room....If current Speakers sound, Natural, Clean & Crisp, After room Tuning (Carpet & corner Traps) Keep 'em & Add a 31 octave Equalizer to "Touch up" whatever's Missing or lacking to get Exactly what You like....

He obviously bought analytical speakers instead of neutral or even warm. That's why you should listen to them before buying. Every manufacturer discloses how many watts or frequency range, but never tells you if their ideal of music reproduction is on the warm, neutral or analytical side. Should be mandatory to disclose.

Room treatment

Every part of frequency reproduction is difficult to get right. The lower midrange to woofer is the trickiest. I find that the obsession over perfect electronic reproduction of music is better channeled towards picking up a musical instrument.

He can add a pair of subs. That should help.

For me best speaker is one that sings. Celestion ditton 100

Schiit Lokius, but first slow down and audition lots of speakers in your home until it sounds right. Btw, amps like the MF A1 have a lot of midrange meat on the bone.

Another proof how cost often doesn't corelate with performance. I can't imagine what on Earth should cost $20K in speakers that can give so much better sound than $4K, but that's me. Feeling of having some expensive is also something one must pay. Is there real difference? Most of times not or not a big one, actually very small and not in proportion with money invested. Not even close. But, whole industry is based on emotions, personal beliefs and often placebo. Kudos for those who can make money on that! P.S. Most of audiophiles and owners of expensive hi fi gear are male. Same as with cars and expensive wrist watches. That says something, isn't it?

Get a Trinnov! You can certainly afford it 😂

It's most likely a cabling issue. I'd look at the interconnect from pre to the amp first and then speaker cables. I've come across this situation a hundred times.

Always good to see your videos, keep it up! 🙋‍♂️ Btw, are you currently seeking video editors or a thumbnail designer to enhance viewers, retention, or CTR? If yes, May I send you a previous work sample?

Reccomend adding a dome midrange driver on a stand next to each speaker to augment mid band. A 3" dome type will do the job nicely but you will need a passive crosover design. (Dynaudio d-54 for example)

As the poster remarked that his previous speakers possessed a fuller midrange,looking at alternative options there and/or their placement might be the answer. Whilst I understand the subjective aspects are important in audio,he might do well to find objective measurements that may be causing the issue that he's unhappy with. That way he can be sure to find something else that doesn't have the same traits. Speakers are by far the most flavoured part of the audio chain,so my guess would be to start there.At least experimenting with placement won't cost him anything.🫰

Maybe it's your speaker positioning. Try some EQ.

I love all the audiophile adjectives. 🤣🤣

How do you even know it's the midrange that's the problem? The acoustics of the room and the bass response in your listening position will greatly affect your perception of sound. Get a measurement microphone and EQ capabilities and play around with room correction.

I'd try a different speaker cable, perhaps with a thicker gauge than you are used too. This may seem like strange advice but I'm amazed what cables can do. Otherwise change the toe in of your speakers you wouldn't want the tweeters pointing directly at you in your case for instance. :)

I'd bet my ass he bought Bowers & Wilkins

I bet if you take any random ten of us knowledgeable audiophiles from this comment section and let us listen to Magnus' system in his listening room we would get ten different opinions on how good the sound is and what we would suggest to him to make it better. Knowing what his speakers cost, I wonder seriously if any of us would recommend swapping out $20K speakers? And yes boys, I said "audiophiles." If you're following Paul and commenting here then you ARE one of the 1%-ers. 😎

Having multiple drivers is a challenge to get right because the crossovers can cause phase distortion and driver placement can cause time issues. That is why the Ohm F's were called the best sounding speaker at any price since all frequencies were produced by one time and phase aligned driver without the need for a crossover . HHR Exotics will custom make a modern look alike version called the TLS-1 with an extended frequency response and modern materials hat have a much longer lifetime 0 0 Reply

Time for DSP ...

Get a nice paper coated driver and you can't go wrong