Ghibli Theory: The Miyazaki Theory Explained! 

But my neighbour Totoro is set during the 50’s, there’s even a scene where they show a calendar displaying the date.

In Laputa, if you pay attention to the background you can see that the picture Pazu's dad took was taken in 1868

Well considering the fact that he states that this isn't his theory, it makes me wonder how well he really knows these films. After watching them a thousand times with kids, you really pick up details, which seemed to be lacking in the information he presented.

The shoes are very clearly different shoes, Princess mononoke clearly takes place in 16th century Japan, there are no spirits in Nausicaa and the Seven Days of Fire are shown to be a nuclear apocalypse perpetrated by the Warriors that they try to resurrect, the cargo. Why are Kiki and Howl's not on your timeline ? I'm sorry but this seems poorly researched...

howls moving castle tho?

There is a line in Princess Mononoke where Eboshi says "Guns of Ming are too heavy." This is a reference to Ming China (1368-1644). The first guns reached Japan in 1543. When Eboshi asks where Ashitaka is from, he answers "From between East and North" this is a reference to the Tohoku region (literally, northeast). And Jigo speaks of the fierce tribes of Ezo who use stone ware, which is the reference to the Ainu. To back this up, Ashitaka carries a lacquered bowl, which is an Ainu product. The old woman in Ashitaka's village says that it has been "five hundred and fourteen years" or "five hundred and ten odd years" (the pronunciation is the same in Japanese) since they were defeated by the Yamato. The war between the Yamato (the Kyoto government) and the Ainu was fought in the Nine Year War (1051-1062) and the Three Year War (1083-1087). Eboshi's people are defiant toward the samurai, are armed with guns, and are in an uneasy alliance with Jigo who wears religious robes. All of this suggest that they are Saika people. All this and more points to the conclusion that Princess Mononoke is set in the late 16th century during the Sengoku Period. Roughly the same era as Inuyasha.

But my neighbor Totoro is canonically stated by Miyazaki to be set in the 1950s

There's a difference between a shoe and a sandal! In Totoro there's a sandal and in spirited away there's a shoe!

But Fujimoto didn't cause the catastrophy, Ponyo was the one who caused it by accident.

Where is Kiki's delivery service and Howl's moving castle ???

If Miyazaki saw this he would cry a lot

Arrietty wasn't even directed by Miyazaki

I disagree with your conclusion on princess mononoke. I think it was first in the timeline, because of the spirit of the forest being an actual character. As you said he dissipates, which led to the creation of characters like Totoro and haku

A couple points: stuff I’ve gathered from the comments and my own 2 cents 1) I disagree about Laputa taking place in the future. Aside from the fact that Pazu’s father’s photo says that it was taken in 1868, when Muska enters the center of the city, he attains Laputa’s power and shoots a sort of fire arrow causing an explosion. He then states, “The fire of Heaven which destroyed Sodom and Gammorah in the Old Testament. The Romayana refered to it as Indra’s Arrow. The entire world will once again kneel before the awesome power of Laputa.” Meaning the city of Laputa PREDATES the supposed apocalyptic flood in Ponyo. It actually existed in Ancient Times. 2) The end of Ponyo depicts the world going back to normal, so the flooding didn’t result in an apocalypse. The flood also occurred due to Ponyo, not Fujimoto. 3) The flood in Ponyo not occurring as an apocalyptic event invalidates the theory that it caused what we see in Princess Mononoke. The movie is also set in Japan’s Muromachi period (1330s-1570s CE) so it’s canonically set in the past. But let’s pretend we don’t know that, and that isn’t canonical. I’m just speculating here, but to me, it doesn’t make sense for a future civilization to fully resemble a past one, specifically in terms of clothing. For example, Nausicca is the only movie that we know for sure is set in the future. While there’s obvious parallels with past cultures in the clothes the characters wear, they still seem to possess a uniqueness to them. The clothes worn by characters in Princess Mononoke seem to parallel those of the past Japan-for lack of a better word, they’re not futuristic. They aren’t distinct from the past. Of course, this is my own personal instinct/rationale for why that part of the theory doesn’t sit well with me, and I am not knowledgeable about Japanese culture. I just can’t imagine humans making a distinct choice to wear clothes from centuries ago rather than clothing styles slowly changing based on what they presently wear. 4) Chihiro lost a sneaker, you see a sandal in My Neighbor Totoro. My Neighbor Totoro also canonically takes place in the 1950s, and there’s a calendar in the movie dating in that year to prove it! You also failed to mention Kiki’s Delivery Service which takes place in the mid-1900s, as you can tell from the depictions of technology. 5) The theory about the Spirit Realm doesn’t make sense to me. You see clear depictions of the Spirit World in Spirited Away, Mononoke, and Totoro. Maybe I’m wrong because it’s been a while since I’ve seen Porco Rosso, but how is him becoming a pig a result of spirits? It wasn’t explicitly stated in the movie. Miyazaki said that he cursed himself into that state... no mention of spirits. You theorize that the Spirit World may have some sort of an affect on the human realm, but that theory is too vague and requires too many assumptions. This argument doesn’t make sense in Arrietty either. Aside from the fact that Miyazaki didn’t direct it (so it doesn’t count in the timeline imo), it’s never implied that the borrowers are part of the Spirit Realm. They’re just... borrowers. Now idk much about Japanese lore or culture, but Miyazaki’s depictions of spirits are also far different from how the borrowers are depicted. I don’t think they’re the same thing or even synonymous with each other. And in Nausicca, the insects and toxic jungle are not part of the Spirit Realm either... they’re the result of evolution and adaptation after the 7 Days of Fire. They’re pure flesh and biology as we know it. Your narrative that all these movies are somehow connected to the spirit realm just seems forced. 6) Some people are confused as to why you didn’t mention Howl’s Moving Castle. Although it’s based on Diana Wynne Jone’s book, Miyazaki strayed quite a bit from the source material and sort of made it his own. No disrespect to the original book or author, but I think that based on the stark contrast between the movie and book, it wouldn’t be wrong to say that the movie is Miyazaki’s story, and therefore people are rightfully frustrated that it wasn’t included. This was so long and I doubt anyone will read it but I needed to organize my frustration somehow. Ik this is from 2 years ago-we’re all late to the party sometimes. Aside from this forced narrative, there were too many plot holes and contradictions here. I’ve watched almost all these movies and found this information with just a bit of digging. I don’t know what “research” you referred to, but please try to be accurate and put in the commitment to research next time... er, hopefully you’re doing that now since I’m so late eheh.

I find it interesting how you use chihiros shoe as proof that totoro and spirited away take place within the same universe, yet completely fail to point out the more-obvious example of the soot spirits in both films. Also, the fox-squirrels in both nausicaa and laputa. And i find it hard to believe that seven days of fire would create a toxic wasteland that pushes humanity to the brink 1000yrs later, and yet just decades after you say it takes place (the collapse of laputa), we see lush grassland, thriving communities, and all the laputans did was move their population onto the ground. On top of that, im pretty sure sheeta says the laputans abandoned their sky-cities because they were too disconnected from nature (another major theme in miyazaki films, moreso than spirits). Even worse, you claim that nausicaa ends with spirits outliving nature, when nausicaa explicitly says that the jungles are Purifying the wasteland, and therefore must be protected! I have a strong suspicion that, despite claiming to have done “lots of research” on these films, you didn’t actually Watch any of them... >:/

Re watch ponyo bc at the end of ponyo the world goes back to normal

after 4 minutes watching, this theory is already riddled with holes and wasn't researched thoroughly enough.

The reason the princess in Nausicäa of the Valley of the Wind, wanted Nausicäa to burn the cargo, was because of the fire beast in it (can't remember if it has a name) and the down fall of humanity in that film is caused by those same creatures. I honestly think you should research these things before making a theory :/

I would call this one of the least compelling connected universe theories I've heard. I watched a video a few days ago which connected Spirited Away with Howl's Moving Castle which I really don't buy into either. I was acquainted with an SF author who wrote a lot of SF and mystery books. Me and a friend connected the SF books which had only two books concretely connected as a series and explained our theory of universe to him. He liked it and complimented us on how imaginatively we made it all work together. Independently, I also connected some of his mysteries.

Ok this video sucked... not only did he leave out “Howls moving castle” but the way he talks about all of these movies are as if he’s never watched them and understood what happened. There is just so much misunderstanding in this like both Nausicaa and castle in the sky do not talk about any spirits. If you’re gonna talk about them be about them and watch them bro!

but they were two different shoes, Chihiro's is a sneaker the other kid's is a sandel. it can't have been Chihiro's besides it was the Kohaku river she fell in and it was filled in to become land for apartments. if that was the Kohaku river and that was chihro's magic changing shoe, then why was it still a river in lush farmland instead of city dwelling apartments? if Chihiro was born in lush farm land her mother wouldn't be complaining about having to drive to the next town to shop, being far from the city would be second nature to them. they were typical city dwellers with a fancy car that was well above the cars driven in Totoro who's vehicles and style of dress was of an older era. simply put it wasn't Chihiros shoe unless her parents were rich enough to afford that time machine that doesn't exist yet.

unfortunately, there are dates in several of the movies that contradict this theory, totoro is in the 50's and mononoke is in the Muromachi Period... it's a bummer but there's no legitimate timeline theory for these movies

A few complaints here and there 1. You didn't include 'Howl's Moving Castle' or 'Kiki's Delivery Service' 2. 5:44 The fact that 'Princess Mononoke' is set in a post apocalyptic future is ironic, because after re-watching the movie recently, one of the elders of Ashitaka's clan clearly said that the emperor tried to wipe out their clan 500 years ago, which would mean that the time period was relatively the same instead of being the normal 21st century. Plus wouldn't there be any sign of previous human life? A good example of post-apocalyptic human life is the manga (and upcoming anime) 'Dr. Stone' 3. There was also a clear connection between 'Howl's Moving Castle' and 'Spirited Away' through many scenes, especially through the first ones in spirited away, when we see the 4 coloured stained glass window- which may be a reference to the 4 coloured portal thing (plz help I want to know what it is) that can open portals to different places, like it did to Chihiro. I of course don't know much about ghibli films and haven't been watching them for too long but I thought I would share my two cents

I’m pretty sure humans will have remembered their modern technology after 100 years (even if there was some apocalyptic event) I mean 1000 years past since the apocalypse in the nausicaä timeline yet their technology is fairly modern. This is why mononoke is likely set in 1300s-1600s japan.

But doesn’t nausicaä happen before castle in the sky because In nausicaa, Nausica is told to give her blessings to a baby called shita and is told that she will grow strong like Nausica. Knowing what happens later on in the movie could’ve shita been stolen by the men in the aircrafts. Mainly what I’m saying is how is Nausica after castle in the sky????

I don't think all these movies are in the same universe. This is how I would categorize the Ghibli movies into different universes: Real World: 1. Grave of the Fireflies 2. Only Yesterday 3. Ocean Waves 4. Whisper of the Heart (Maybe?) 5. My Neighbors the Yamadas 6. From Up on Poppy Hill 7. The Wind Rises Studio Ghibli Fantasy Earth (In Chronological Order): 1. Princess Mononoke 2. Castle in the Sky 3. Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind Contemporary Earth, with Known Magic (Noteably Witches): 1. Kiki's Delivery Service 2. Earwig and the Witch Contemporary Earth, with Unkown Spirits/Magic: 1. My Neighbor Totoro 2. Pom Poko 3. Spirited Away 4. The Cat Returns (Maybe?) 5. Ponyo 6. Arriety (Maybe?) 7. When Marnie was There (Maybe?) These fit into the unique, respective universes of the books they were based on: - Howl's Moving Castle - Tales from Earthsea These are the rest that I think are solo: - The Red Turtle - The Tale of the Princess Kaguya - Porco Rosso

I’m surprised you didn’t include Howls Moving Castle as the catalyst for the 7 days of fire. I think it could fit.

I have some big problems with this theory. First, why are you considering Arrietty? This is not a Miyazaki movie, so you should take all Ghibli movie. Then we know why the world of Nausicaä is like this: there has been a war. You don't put Kiki's delivery service in your theory and, according to Miyazaki, take place in a world without a WW2. And WW2 happens in the wind rises. Finally, according Miyazaki again, Totoro take place in the 50's not right before spirited away. You don't use hmc too. In conclusion, I can't believe in this theory

this is less of a theory and more of a timeline, but im glad you had fun with it

I am watching this video because I am also writing a video tackling the Code Miuazaki. All movies have a constant theme that permeates the studio Ghibli. In my last video i speak about this theory applied to Spirited Away. Thanks for your work, its amazing and I know how hard it can be to make this video. I appreciate it!

He sound like Frankie Jonas when he hits puberty😂 lmfao

Nausicaa is set sometime around the pre-industrial age and Castle in the Sky is set sometime before WW1 is is evidenced by the clothing, architecture, and technology, mostly being powered by helium, steam, and occasionally petrol. Howl's Moving Castle is set around the same time.

Arrietty was directed by Hiromasa Yonebayashi, not Hayao Miyazaki.

I love to think that somehow all of Studio Ghibli films are connected. I don't know if in this order but still it'd be cool if all of them were.

Informing me I arrived at my personal vision of the timeline 901/1000- The tale of the princess Kaguya 1200- Tales from earthsea 1336/1673 (Muromachi period)- Princess Mononoke 1890- Heidi 1929- Porco Rosso 1932- The wind Rises 1945- Grave of the fireflies 1950- My neighbor Totoro 1950- Kiki's delivery service 1960- Pom Poko 1963- From up on poppy hill 1982- Only yesterday 1990- Earwing and the witch 1993- Ocean waves 1994- Whisper of the earth 1999- My neighbores Yamada 2000- Ponyo 2001- Spirited Away 2002- The cat returns 2008- When Marnie was there 2008- Arietty 2008- *7 days of fire July 2008- *thermonuclear war (seen in Conan and Nausicaa) 2028/2030- Future boy Conan 3000- Nausicaa of the valley of the wind 3300- Laputa castle in the sky 3400- Howl's moving castle

But arietty can't possibly be in the 70s because they have flip phones!

Can't be Chihiro's shoe. Totoro takes place in the 50's and Spirited Away takes place after the 90's. This is evidenced by the calendar in Totoro and the fact that Chihiro's father says "they stopped making theme parks like this sometime in the late 90's" so it most likely takes place when the film was made; early 2000's.

i do not think you have ever seen valley of the wind due to the lack of knowledge and the line "burn the cargo" occurs she mean the heart of the giant worrier there is no reference to"meany lethal "generically" engineered weapons" ( 8:16 ) This theory is BS the only conclusive thing supporting the links between the movies is the shoe in the river. Miyazaki just likes to do story based on strips. The visual likes are just the same artists using parts of the same work they had used in other movies.

In Laputa yo ucan clearly see that in the Laputa Photo is written 1868.

princess mononokes tech is too primative to take place so far in the timeline. specifically the guns primarily used actually coming from china and being brought to japan.

Fujimoto did not cause the waves. The moon did. It’s basic science. Also if you look at the tapestry being played through at the beginning of the movie where the beginning were. You can see laputa in one of the arts.

What is "genarically engineered"?

great video (:

are the characters related i only watched princess mononoke recently because i loved spirited away and noticed a resemblance o f the character rin and a character that barley had a scene in princess mononoke that was selling rice to ASHITAKA at minute 14:54 she has the exact same lips as rin and the thin brows i didn't listen for voice resemblance but it kinda surprised me maybe rin is a time traveler or something

Also the soot sprites are in both totoro and spirited away

Here's a quick theory for ya I think lord cob the antagonist from tales from earthsea is no face when no face was alive 😮

You can also sss fox squirrels being present in both in Castle in the sky and Nausicaa

at the end of princess mononoke a spirit turned into totoro. it was definitely set before it. also, the seven days of flood I personally think could have been the war in Howl's moving castle, but I guess who knows. Totoro was most definitely happened in 1950s as Miyazaki literally stated it. So that means Princess Mononoke was definitely a few hundred years or so older. Then, seeing that I'm pretty sure spirited away should be 1990s, as her dad's car is a 1996 Audi (I believe). idk tho, icl.. And the shoes are different btw.

Pazu's father dated his photo of Laputa 1868. I doubt Pazu was 200+

I'd rather put princess mononoke at the first of the time line and i personally think that castle in the sky won't fit in this time line because it wasn't about the certainly spirits and humans but magic and advancements in science but still we've seen that the technology used by the people of the current timeline(means pazu and others)would might be the tech were old (that means the technology we used at the early stages of industrial revolution mostly steam powered) though some might compare this with princess mononoke cuz they too use the similar technology but i think that castle in the sky is more western and i haven't seen Nausicaa so I don't have any idea about that and most importantly ARRIETTY wasn't directed by Miyazaki It was directed by Hiromasa Yonebayashi the director of the WHEN MARNIE WAS THERE so I don't think Arrietty can't included in this theory (though it was co-written by Miyazaki and I also think That Sho/Shaun might be Howl cuz they resembles so much each other this was a whole different theory ) BTW i just finished Arrietty 😅

Ok here we go, totoro is post war, nausicaa has a manga thay describes the seven days of fire which are not caused by laputa because as of then it us a floating tree in space also the cargo was the god warrior, porco rossos cirse was satirical

Soot gremlins! Also the way the acorns fall is like no face and the gold.

Note the soot spreaders in Totoro and Spirited Away

In Nausicaa in the valley of the wind her little pet Fox is also in castle in the sky when they were at the giant tree there’s multiple of them on the robot so they are most likely in the same universe

Princess mononoke is not post apocolyptic nor is castle in the sky.

In the intro credits for castle in the sky, a war between floating cities is seen, I'm willing to bet that was the 7 days of fire

I think its more than just Miyzaki films I beleive they are all connected together. And the timeline is slightly different from the one you have. With mononoke happening much earlier with magic taking a hit and being weakened for the "current day" films and then making more of a come back after an apocolipse event like in ponyo moving though into Earthsea, Laputa, Nausicaa. But thats just my theory.

I agree!

my neighbour totoro feels much earlier than 1990s and someone pointed out the movie is set in the 50s as the calendar with such date appears. Princess Mononoke mentions that the tribe prince Ashitaka stems from was suppose to be hidden for 400 years, it features emperors, no trace of any technology of any kind, I mean, if there were survivors of Ponyo world wide flood, some buildings and technology would have survived with the surviving humans.

How about The Cat Returns and Whisper of The Heart? Both have Baron Humbert von Gikkingen (the cat)

I find this theory hard to belive, as a person who has watched all of the videos u have stated several times... i think this miyazaki Theory COULD be a thing, I beg to differ about this... MESS? -----------

In castle in the sky the picture that pazus father took had a date of 1868 and secondly muska quoted a verse from the Bible

But.... what about Kiki’s Delivery Service and Howl’s Moving Castle? I feel like because Ponyo was the beginning of the destruction to cause the destruction of the earth. As causing destruction and war, Kiki’s Delivery Service must have came just before Ponyo, and I’m guessing it would be Howl’s Moving Castle which comes before that

4:50 didn’t the sea levels rise in ponyo because the moon was moving closer to earth???

Okay but you completely disregarded whisper of the heart which in once scene shows a clock with the words “porco rosso engraved on it” so whisper of the heart has to be in the same universe as PR without even having any connection to the spirit world in it

The my neighbor totoro tunnel i think that tunnel is the same as the tunnel in ponyo

He Forgot howls moving castle 🔥

But in the Nausicaa comics, the Toruekian capitol building is referred to as the Palace in the Sky. Maybe the humans escaped to the heavens in order to survive the cleansing of the earth?

Spirited away had dust bunnies just like totoro!

Am i the only one who saw the simulates between howl and Fujimoto (sorry if I spelled his name wrong the dad in Ponyo)

I can see where you're coming from with Mononoke, but you're ignoring a major point in the film. The ox drivers tell Ashitaka that Lady Eboshi introduced them to the invention of gunpowder and rifles. If this were set in the future, rifles would definitely still be relevant and not considered "new technology". The film also states that this takes place in ancient times, while Japan was still under the rule of an emperor and warlords dotted the land. I'm not dissing your apocalypse theory, I just find it a little far fetched.

There are a lot of theories i have watched but the only point is that miyazaki is just basing some of his masterpiece on his previous one because logically the timelines of the ghibli movies cannot interfer to the present and past ghibli movies miyazaki made. One example is princess mononuke movie was older than ponyo movie

you should watch the movies before making a video on them

So we just gonna ignore the fact that the little boy from SLoA looks just like howl?

doesn't workout right. in the beginning of the movies it shows a montage of what happened

But In castle in the sky and nausicaa, there are fox squirrels, so I think they would have to occur In the same timeline with no branches

While I love the timeline, it's not ponyos fathers fault the apocalypse happened. It's ponyos. She's the one that filled up and let the well go that brought the tsunami

We going to ignore that in spirited away the whole ground was covered in water?

Where is The Cat Returns??

So what about Kiki's Delivery Service? It's not taken place where WW1 and WW2 never happened, also Castle in the Sky was taken place during the past.

Watch whisper of the heart before you watch the cat returns. Clue :BARON AND MUTA

Might not be relevant since the books are different than the movies but the Castle in the sky book is a sequel to how’ls moving castle

It's a nice theory. But in this form that's all it can be.

Someone please talk about the fox squirrel species from Nausicaä appearing in the Castle in the Sky!

In ponyo the world unflooded so the theory is flawed

But Chihiro's shoes are yellow o.O

This is what I was looking for, but I slightly disagree. And many other movies also fit the timeline topically

but where is Kiki's delivery service?

I believe Howl's Moving castle is WAYYYYYY pass the last timeline movie ;v;

In arriety there are no spirits

Good theory but it doesn't follow the timelines in the movies

brush Pixar Disney and Ghibli worked together lmao

no face was not an actual evil spirit

In arriety the had modern day cars

What about Kiki’s delivery service?

Panyos dad didn't raise the waters that was the magic that panyo got into her dad had no idea of what happen until after the fact of her getting to Sasuke ( not Sazuke) your missing howels moving castle, castle in the sky , and about 20 other films

Of course I can't say you're wrong, since it's a theory, but I disagree. I think Mononoke is definitely first, back in the Middle Ages when Industry starts to take over the natural/spirit filled world. The world progresses to the modern age through the late 1800s when flight is invented and the early 1900s when humans wage wars (Laputa could be happening here). The modern age where most Ghibli movies are happening and spirits still exist, but live in secret places. Waaay after that, after some apocalypse which I think only starts with the floods in ponyo, the world has completely changed. This is when Nausicaä happens, since it's very much post post apocalyptic. It could be that everything is on a loop, since you could argue that Nausicaä happens way way in the past, because Laputa could should be happening long after it. And the history that starts with Mononoke and everything I just said, follows after.

I think it would be more like this the chronology Princess Kaguya's Tale Old age Tales from Terramar S 14 Princess Mononoke S 16 The castle in the sky 1900 (or it may be 1880 years after that of nausea by the same technology that is used later) Porco Rosso 1930 The grave of the fireflies 1940 The wind rises or The wind rises 1940 My neighbor Totoro 1960 Poppy Hill 1964 Arrietty and the world of the tiny ones or The secret world of Arriety 1970 I can hear the sea 1960-1990 Pompoko 1970 Memories of yesterday 1980 The memory of Marnie My neighbors the Yamada 1980 approx Whispers of the Heart 1994 Chihiro's Journey 2000 Haru in the Kingdom of Cats or The Return of the Cat 2000 Ponyo on the cliff or Ponyo and the secret of the little mermaid 2006 there is a war and old magic and old technologies are rediscovered Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind 2100 Howl's Moving Castle or The Incredible Tramp Castle 3950 Nicky the Witch's Apprentice or Kiki: Home Delivery 3960 opino que seria mas bien asi la cronologia El cuento de la princesa Kaguya Edad antigua Cuentos de Terramar S 14 La princesa Mononoke S 16 El castillo en el cielo 1900 (o puede ser 1880 años despues de la de nausicaa por la misma tecnologia que se usa despues) Porco Rosso 1930 La tumba de las luciérnagas 1940 Se levanta el viento o El viento se levanta 1940 Mi vecino Totoro 1960 La colina de las amapolas 1964 Arrietty y el mundo de los diminutos o El mundo secreto de Arriety 1970 Puedo escuchar el mar 1960-1990 Pompoko 1970 Recuerdos del ayer 1980 El recuerdo de Marnie Mis vecinos los Yamada 1980 aprox Susurros del corazón 1994 El viaje de Chihiro 2000 Haru en el reino de los gatos o El regreso del gato 2000 Ponyo en el acantilado o Ponyo y el secreto de la sirenita 2006 hay una guerra y se redescubre magia antigua y viejas tecnologias Nausicaä del Valle del Viento 2100 El castillo ambulante o El increíble castillo vagabundo 3950 Nicky, la aprendiz de bruja o Kiki: Entregas a domicilio 3960

What about Kiki’s delivery survice

clearly this theory didn’t have much research put into it