Gloster Javelin: Fast, Fatal, and Forgotten? 

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The prototype Javelin "lost both its tailfins" What? It has one fin. (Tailfin is a tautology.) Do you mean it lost the horizontal stabilizer? No, that is wrong too. It lost both elevators, but the rest of the stab stayed intact and the pilot used stab trim to control the plane.

I remember having a diecast model Gloster Javelin as a kid in the 1960s. It looked cool at the time, but so did the Sea Vixen and the English Electric Lightning.

In 1968 I was a young RAF Airframes apprentice. As part of our Advanced Powered Flying Controls module we worked on some Javelin parts (mostly a large fin). The aircraft by then was effectively withdrawn from service having gained a reputation for being slow (subsonic except in a dive), obsolete and difficult to service. In addition, the pilots weren't singing it's praises. The Lightning made it look ridiculous - as did the Canberra and the American F4 Phantom.

On an Air Experience flight day down at RAF Manston in 1968 (or 69) we were allowed to go along and watch them burn a Javelin at the Fire Training School. We, eager young cadets, asked why they were burning a real aircraft and were told by a rather morose Flt Sgt - " because they were fucking shit!" Our officers scooted us swiftly away.

‘Fast”?! By the time of its introduction in 1956 it was one of the slowest interceptors in the world, lol!

I used to watch the Javelin at Leuchars back in the day, mid 60's. I had a soft spot for it & really enjoyed watching it fly

It took over 15 years to develop and was outdated before it finally got its missiles by other more advanced aircraft. Its interesting that the Convair F-102 Delta Dagger took just 6 years to develop and another two to enter service. It was a far better supersonic interceptor and was quickly followed by the Mach 2.5 F-106 Delta Dart, which entered service same time as the Javelin FAW Mk8.

Gloster became a part of Hawker Siddeley not BAC in 1963. I had the Dinky toy Javelin as a kid. One part of the story was that after Rhodesia declared UDI in 1965 some Javelins were sent to Zambia for no good reason other than to suggest some sort of threat that was never going to be taken seriously by anybody.

Thanks! I'm doing research for our Axis&Allies house rules for the Cold War. This really helps with the UK's Technological Research rules.

In the early 60's i was a young meteorological assistant on an RAF base with Javelins, FAW 9's and T3's . Only a few years later the Lightning OCU was formed on the same base -what a quantum leap in performance! To be fair the Javelin did meet the MOD requirements but there is no doubt that the aircraft did become obsolete pretty quickly.

In the mean time the Americans came up with a whole range of fighters that flew at Mach 1.5 and beyond. They wondered how the British managed to put so much engine power into their planes without really surpassing Mach 1.

My great grandfather had a hand in the development of the sapphire engine for the javelin, he wrote in his diary of plugging his ears whilst standing outside of the test room, even stood outside he described the sound as (indescribable).

“…shouting insults over the radio.” Very good.

I've never forgotten the Javelin, I can still remember them at air displays in the 1960's, I think the final display was around 1970 or 1971.

The prototype Javelin did not 'lose its tail fins' in flight. It only has one tail fin, which remained intact. Neither did it lose both tailplanes as your animation shows. If it had, it would instantly have become uncontrollable and crashed. What it DID lose, through a phenomenon known as 'flutter', were both elevators. Bill Waterton managed to land it by controlling pitch with tailplane trim and varying engine thrust. I think you need to research 'deep stall' as well; or even just 'stall', as you 'explanation' reveals that you don't understand it (clue; it occurs if the wings critical angle of attack is exceeded - nothing at all to do with nose-up angle of the aeroplane. You can stall an aeroplane going straight down). The Javelin was a rubbish aeroplane, not in the least comparable to the excellent Hunter. Duncan Sandys' surname is pronounced 'Sands'.

The thick wing of the Javelin was its biggest bugbear and not having thick wings was also one of the Lightnings main strengths.

But they looks SO good! 🥰

A very British looking aircraft, serious and sombre in every way.

I didn’t even think it was such an old plane! I know this model well, as I glued it as a child. The most amazing thing is that this assembly model somehow ended up in the Soviet Union in a toy store. Perhaps the KGB bought them for study, and the surplus was sent to a toy store.

They were stationed at Geilenkirchen, just over the border from where I lived. They flew over all the time.

I date from the late Forties and saw most of the early jets. I never saw a Javelin. I once built a Frog 1/72 one after I had read Bill Waterton's opinions of them. I went to many open days and was close to de Havilands and Handley-Page but I guess far from Moreton Valence.

hadnt really heard of the javelin so it was nice to get on board , so to spesk

Deadly to the aircrew who flew them,had the tendency of the tail falling off.

The 'tabs' on the wing are known as Vortex Generators. The idea is to improve laminar airflow of the wing making stalls less likely. The downside is when it does then stall its usually far more viscious Amazed Gloster stuck 'em on a transonic 'plane though Oh, and that High Speed Stall with the wing banking out the T Tail tail fin ... Caused at least on Buccaneer a lot of grief too

Notorious for suffering a double flame out when you lit the afterburner at altitude because the intakes were too small to provide sufficient air flow. Also had a reputation for rubbish brakes.

A great many aircraft were designed and built during the Cold War. Many of them used unusual, untested ideas. Most of them are forgotten and the Javelin is only one of them

A good looking plane, pity it didn't work out.

You missed that it was with the arrival of the Lightning it was moved to low level interception role where its high transonic drag which limited its performance so much at altitude was less of an issue, although the Royal Navy took great pride in humiliating them in this role with the Buccaneer S1 as unlike the Sea Vixen it lacked the speed at any altitude to get near the Buccaneer. This however led to an issue with significantly increased compressor blade fatigue in the Sapphire engine and Armstrong Siddley were working on this and had developed new blades. However fatigue issues were found in the tail and so with the heavy defence cuts of the mid 60s the decision was made to accelerate the retirement of Javelin.

Gloster was never merged into BAC!!! It was part of the Hawker Siddeley group as far back as 1934!!! But operated as a individual design team and manufacture until merged into Hawker Siddeley Aviation in 1963.

A beautiful aircraft.

A 1940s era night and foul-weather fighter, rapidly overtaken by better designs. These Javs were still being used as instructional airframes when I was in trade training, 1976.

For all its clear faults, it somehow had a look and a presence that really caught the eye. It was quite a good looking aircraft but clearly heavily flawed. A classic case of early rapid jet design and experimentation. Globally, things moved very fast in terms of experiment and developing new types during those years. A quick glance through all the various editions of The Observers Book of Aircraft from that period clearly shows how many different types were being designed and built all over the world, many of which were pretty odd and had very short service lives. If you remove the T tail and send a Gloucester Javelin to weight watchers.....you sort of see where the Typhoon came from! 😂 Thanks for a very interesting account of this aircraft and its many variants. 👍🏻😊

I exited a few seconds into your advert. Thats why you have the revenue-generating advert at the start.

I love the shape of the Javelin but have to ask you whether Nordvpn crashes unexpectedly ?

Thanks very much for this interesting and informative video, I don’t think 💭 that the fact the Ministry of Aviation kept on changing their minds about aircraft production helped the Javelin development, at least in its early stages, and tbh nothing has changed when it comes down to military procurement, we are to slow in deciding what we want and need and then the shiny bum brigade In Whitehall completely disregards what the military wants and usually needs and decides to give us something completely different, for example, when the decision to replace the SLR rifle was made most of the service personnel I knew were hoping for a license built M-16 but instead we got the completely badly designed and very poorly manufactured SA-80 (which did turn into a fairly decent weapon but only after a major intervention by H.K, I think it was H.K) and that is what generally happens, we get either a completely useless item or by the time it is introduced it is outdated and redundant. Anyway, enough to my opinion, soapbox put away and spleen vented, thanks again for an excellent insight into an aircraft that I knew little to nothing about. Subscribed 😀👍🇬🇧🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇺🇦 P.S Duncan Sandys was a perfect example of the “shiny bum Whitehall brigade”, the only people who SHOULD make decisions on military procurement are military personnel, not the brass but the personnel who are actually going to use the kit, for example, a high ranking tank commander to decide (in consultation with the actual tank operators and manufacturers) what the tank needs to do and what equipment it should carry, not a Civil Servant or Ministerial level M.P who wouldn’t know which end was the dangerous end of the barrel.

brilliant

My Chief Tech' in the seventies said that he had worked on worse? He and quite a few others said the ultimate "Bag of nails" was the Swift.

so many of these channels now.... i don't mind, i'm subscribe to them all! 😄👍

For several years it was the fastest all weather interceptor in the world..until the US completely redesigned the F-102 with the help of German engineers.

Duncan Sandys strikes again!

F.4/48 is the specification and would contain everything the designers were required to meet.

Were it not for the 1957 Defence White Paper which cut most manned aircraft development in the UK we would probably have had the thin wing Javelin which would have hopefully improved its high speed performance. A few Javelin instructors were my father's dental patients in the late 1950s near RAF Leeming. They had mixed feelings about the aircrafts capabilities.

Very enjoyable and informative. May I politely point out that it is pronounced Duncan Sands, not Duncan Sandees!

Even stalled aircarft have forward movement (Newton's 1st Law applies). Stalling only means that the wing no longer generates lift and can occur at any forward speed when a specific angle of attack is reached.

When I started watching this presentation I wondered why the designers did not contact the Northrup corporation and design a tailless flying wing on the delta wing platform. The sheer size of the vertical and horizontal stabilizers demonstrate their ineffectiveness as well as adding hundreds of pounds of structure to an already overweight airframe. The Brits should be glad these planes never encountered any of the Russian MIG designs. Those planes gave America's fighters a run for the money over Hanoi

Why the amount of changes to the basic design? Some changes are normal in any new aircraft programme which are pushing the boundaries. Did the UK lack wind tunnels to resolve some of these issues before production or was it a lack of funding? I know in this period Britain was essentially broke.

A lot of rubbish written here about the Javelin. For those of us flew the later models we could outurn all other contemporary fighters at high altitudes 😂 and we were armed,with 4 30 mil cannons and 4 fire streak missiles. Not bad for a NAW fighter in the late 50s and 60s. 1:51

Hearing the fuselage referred to as the body is a bit irritating

Squads? You must mean Squadrons!

I reckon this article was produced by Dwayne Dibbley as it contains so much rubbish-including WD804 did not lose "both fins", it lost the elevators. The Javelin design originated in 1947 and filled every requirement in the specification - supersonic speed in level flight was never a requirement. Anybody wishing to read a good article on the Javelin should Google "Hush Kit Gloster Javelin"- Written by a Javelin pilot in the Far East who a couple of years after flying the Javelin was with the Red Arrows. Where does fatal apply? the pilot of WD808 died because he left his ejection too late and in service it had an enviable safety record ( most fatalities were pilot error)

Its failure as an export product, the Javelin not only failed Gloster but the UK aircraft industry lending it’s part to the lamentable position of the UK today

What do you expect a Javelin Remembrance service once a year.

This video is a bit like an audio version of the Yellow Pages.

Early F100 could have good fun.

It’s always amazed me how British aviation went from the most beautiful fighter in the world to the designing some of the ugliest ever seen. Not a single post WWII jet design, other than the Hawker Hunter, was either hideous or hilarious. The Javelin itself looks as if it was designed by some 6 year old while he was doodling during a boring class.

Radome, not radar dome!

Christ, it's competitor, the Sea Vixen was a bloody death trap and an abomination.

Radar dome = radome

Why is it that British aircraft always look so strange? They look like they were shaped with an ugly stick. There are a few planes that looked good. The Dpitfire and seafire from WWIi are the best example of this. Most of them look like someone started out with a limp of clay, and with all the bumps and protrusions must give them more aerodynamic drag. Meanwhile, US and zfrench planes looked like they were fast sitting still.

Scrolling whilst refuelling? What utter bollox.

_>bongs thinking they had "icons" during the Cold War instead of being a pitiable crumbling no-longer empire and merely a stepping stone for the U.S._ Hue.

3:45 you can't just tell me Bill watterton saved the airplane with a backup system for pitch control. Sufficient information is available on Wikipedia stating that he used trim controls and engine thrust to manage the pitch.

Oversized and ineffective.

The Brits had the most oddly looking aircraft of the jet age, some not bad but some ungainly, the Vulcan looks like a godzilla movie monster

1960 and the USAF was already flying 4 or 5 Supersonic fighters...meanwhile back in the UK

Flying flat iron

oversized and ineffective!..... It would have been easier to turn a B-52 into a fighter.

I like the design, typically British at the time.

Always seemed the sort of aircraft, let's pretend it never existed..

You need to work on your understanding and use of aircraft terminology

The dumpiest looking delta winged aircraft of the cold war. 💩

This is really pretty bad. Who wrote it - a six year old?

Didn’t a revamped Javelin strike the runways during the 1980’s Falkland War??

Tail fins? They're called tailplanes - pathetic

Gloster Javelin = crap

It’s called an “AIRCRAFT” or an “AEROPLANE”, not a plane! No Pilot will ever call an aircraft a plane. Only in America do they do that!

Its a bad design. Period!!!