GM Timing DEATH CODES? (P0008 P0017 Cadillac SRX V6) 

I don’t know about anyone else, but I LOVE seeing all of these scope waveforms to see how engines work. I’m still learning it all myself, but it’s fascinating.

Man, I am glad you posted a video this morning. Sunday mornings suck. Now I have something to watch while I enjoy my coffee. Getting my grit on so we can plant that 18' post in the ground this morning. My oldest son is almost ready to move into his new home. His first home, and we have to get the meter pole ready. Life is good.

There's no mechanic out there doing that math. You're amazing

If I remember correctly, Eric O was had a similar problem a couple of years back. The chain stretch was not that high, but was enough to exceed the limit and the system shuts it all down. It is a weird one in that at say 4.9 degrees out, it is fine, at 5.0 it is suddenly out of spec and you get the MIL light and degraded performance. No middle ground!

I really enjoy how you explain the scope patterns you make it so much easier to understand . with 2 to 1 ratio between crank and cams and three chains complicates it were well worth are diagnostic time

I've found a lot of those reluctors shifted so I just pull the pan for a look before doing a chain and let the customer know up front. Press on stuff on cranks and cams suck.

I know that the LE0 version of that 3.6 litre GM V6 engine was known to have problems with the timing chains stretching & the crankshaft timing sprocket keyway wearing out in them in the 2006+ model Holden VE Commodore (Basically the 2006 model Pontiac GTO engine with that V6 engine fitted instead of the 6 litre V8 engine) in Australia. My grandfather has done over 400,000 kilometres (250,000 miles) in his 2005 model Holden VZ Commodore which he bought when it was a couple of years old,it runs the very first of the high feature 3.6 litre GM V6 (LY7) engines with variable camshaft timing on inlet camshaft sprockets. I think that it's because he does a lot of country driving that it hasn't flogged out the timing chains & the crankshaft timing sprocket keyway but it's no excuse when I have found that the LS1 V8 powered Holden Commodore has been a better choice,the same goes for the VE Commodore which runs the 6 litre L76 V8 engine standard & the L98 V8 engine in the enhanced version which was fitted by Holders special vehicles division. Even some people go as far as saying that the old 3.8 litre Buick L36 V6 engine was better than the 3.6 litre alloy V6 engine !

It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas ... I couldn't help it :)

GM has updated the ECU software for many of these. They will allow more variance on the timing chain. I was working on an Impala with a 3.6. I did an update on the ECU and TDS notes said it was a fix for P0008 and P0017. I flashed and the codes did not come back. I don't know if this is for all GM's or not. I did not scope it though so I cannot say how many degrees it was off.

Most informative video I've seen and at this point it feels like I've watched all 2.3 million of them

This confused the heck out of me, but i loved watching every bit of it. Keep them coming.

Are these timing chain issues preventable with shorter oil change intervals and did GM ever alter the design to improve durability? It's a shame because the old 3.8's had a reputation for being bulletproof.

I'd been waiting for this video! Since seeing your comment about this on another video. So glad you delivered! I have this same exact car 106k but only the p0008 code and i tried changing the camshaft position sensors on bank one back in march but it did not work. I paid a mobile mechanic to diag who suggested i try the same but he did not do a thorough diag like you, just gave suggestions since the car drives just lacks power. I did buy the vvt Solenoids like the other comments of that video suggested but I'm betting it's just my chains like you say. I've been driving with Christmas lights for 5 years now. Once I'm able to afford to replace them, I'll will definitely follow up!

Something I have noticed over seeing several of these and ecotec 4 bangers and timing chains, the oil filter cap has a drain back valve in it. Lack of oil pressure on start up destroys timing guides. Every time I do a timing job on a ecotec or rwd 3.6 I ALWAYS replace the oil filter cap.

I love the AllData hand scribbled in MS Paint "Good" and "Bad" captions.

Coffee and PHAD, it's gonna be a great day!

The timing chain stretch was determined to be caused by carbon in the engine oil from Di engines causing the timing chain pins to wear excessively . This was such a problem that Oem’s went to the oil companies and they come up with a new Api classification to address this issue.

It was my first hard drive failure that made me back up (lots). There is no better lesson!

😂 And people tell me chains are superior to the belts in my Hondas. 200 bucks and a couple of hours on a Saturday and I'm good for 10 years... Plus I don't need an expensive damn scope.

i just did this last month on bank 1 exhaust tension took a dump had do to a tming chain and it was fixed and passed inspection and costumer was happy as hell because she went to somewhere and they told her she needs a new engine lol when you mention the codes i already new that needs timing job lol and i saw the same tsb and remove the pan and check the crank mine was fine as well

It’s one of GM’s worst engines. They knew these problems with the Suzuki brand and didn’t fix it. Shame on you GM! Thanks Ivan!

I’m sitting on pins and needles waiting for this video to drop.

Good morning from the UK 🇬🇧 🙏

In cases like these, OEM parts quality is the central issue. In most cases, you wouldn't even suspect a Toyota timing chain at 200K. Just look at the heat indicator markings and move on. Low mileage timing failures are unacceptable in this century, without some abuse factor.

Good morning, now it’s Sunday,ready for video

When looking at timing shift with stretched chains, don't forget the tensioners. The driven sprockets will be pulled in the direction of the tensioner, so the stretch will not be distributed evenly.

What a challenge Ivan, but if you don't have money, you just drive it til the wheels fall off, lol!!

Similar issue with our 2010 Traverse. Being so old, we opted not to spend the money. It’s been 7-9 years, and there have been no severe consequences.

I had a 2014 2.4 equinox on Friday setting a p0017. I took a waveform and could see that the exhaust cam was clearly out of time.(wish i could post the picture of it here). Turns out the exhaust reluctor moved(pressed fit) I literally have changed dozens of chains, phasers, (almost never a sensor😉) complete timing sets on the 2.4s and have yet to see anything except a chain kit fix the p0017. We need a better reference location for waveforms. Almost impossible to find everything when you need it. I had a 2010 equinox with a 3.0 v6 with timing codes and could not find a verified known good waveform. I found waveforms but they did not match what I had... given diag time I was already at and what customer was going to pay for the time I invested I had to let it go and never got a chance to find out what it truly was going on with it... picos library is good but not all encompassing and my other sources like mitchell, all data, etc are very hit n miss...Do you have an email or forum I can post the picture of the reluctor that moved? The reference should be available to help the next person who encounters this.

Add some chain tightening fluid

Depending on how many teeth are on the crank-- it may have actually jumped a tooth, because of loose guides are tensioner, etc; seems more likely since both cars had nearly the exact same numbers... Or I guess it probably has a stretch tolerance and it trips the code just as you pass it... which is why both numbers are nearly the same. Makes perfect sense.

Unexpected ending, Ivan! I thought there was a workable solution. Unfortunately, there's not - just ride until it's done (or spend a ton of money on it).

1:00 They are also notorious for the chains pulling through the links and breaking right around 80 to 100k.. Usually on bank 2. NOTE: these engines have 3 chains, A primary idler drag chain and a chain for each bank that run on 2 independent idlers.

Great diagnostic as always.

How did I get unsubscribed from this awesome channel? WEF collusion?

Here in Australia the 3.6 Alloytech engine was put in Holden Commodores from 04 onwards until the closure of the company .The timing chains were a known failure point (stretching )from 160000klms however if the correct oil & change intervals are observed they do not have the problem my 05 with the LEO designation has 179000klms on it no problem (It was a Police commissioners vehicle before I purchased it so maintaince was meticlous)The LYF & LFE designations in the later models 06 to 18 which had higher horsepower were more suseptable to chain stretch.

Hi Ivan in part 1 you stated only use GM OE parts if it has a wire coming from it. I believe a Timken hub would work as well . But you are 100 percent correct ,quality parts make a huge difference. I watch all your videos. 😊

Ahhh the old 3.6 Gm chain stretch I've heard so much about. I've only done 1, but hear billions of them fail.

My opinion driving with a loose / stretched timing chain is driving on borrowed time until shtf or valve hits the piston…. Vhtp.. lol. But thats just something you don’t put up with.. is like driving with no coolant.. it can only overheat so long before something happens..

The in-cylinder pressure transducer vs ckp signal can prove/disprove a shifted/rotated ckp reluctor wheel. You'd need known good to compare to, though. But I also imagine - if the ckp reluctor has indeed shifted, ignition timing would be off. So you can compare a scan data pid for ignition timing, vs an actual measured timing and test it that way.

A spun reluctor on the crankshaft could throw out ignition timing. Maybe, just maybe, you could do an ignition timing check with an in-cylinder pressure transducer. But, that will only work if the ignition timing is based SOLELY on the CKP, true in some cars, but not all.

I have a 2014 GMC Acadia. It has 150k on it, no engine issues, normal oil change. I don’t do top high maintenance on it, in fact I just asked my mechanic about doing preventative maintenance on it, he said leave it alone until the engine light comes on with an issue, if it’s working fine DO NOT TOUCH IT, when you start interfering with stuff that’s when weird problems start showing up.

2012 Impala with 249k miles. All original engine except for a purge valve. 3k mile synthetic oil changes. Runs like new.

Thanks Ivan!

Diagnose Dan had a recent issue with stretched timing chains. Why, oh why, is it not possible to have a timing chain guide sensor on any vehicle to activate a dash warning when the guides go beyond a calculated travel distance? It is simply ridiculous to have so much diagnostic time wasted.

86k. I’d say that is another candidate for the disposable category. Well, at least on Your side it was a double NPR. Cool scope stuff anyway. 👍👍🇺🇸

I'm sure someone on Facebook would've helped you with a correct ckp cmp waveform for ya. And did you have the vvt solenoids plugged in? Think maybe that b2 ex might've been phasing just a little bit? I just did a p0017 on a cruze, zoomed in on 4 different spots and had 4 slightly different results. (Vvt's plugged in) Makes for a lot of variables!

Wasn't there a flash for the Traverse ECU that extended the stretch to like 2 mm instead of the 0.5 mm originally firmwared? I had the sorta same issue with a 2010 Traverse. Owner came back after OEM chains and phasers, in about 4 months, and called friend and he said to bring into dealership for the update. (Note customer wasn't doing a great job of oil changes) Just a thought, but a maybe? Great video as always!

It looks like a teardown would show the problem, but since the crank timing wheel is at the back of the engine, what do you have for a mechanical reference to check the cam timing other than removing #1 spark plug and checking when the piston is up at TDC compression? Maybe later on the vehicle will be back. Good one Ivan.

So either the tone wheel has shifted on the crank or the lower chain has the stretch. It will be interesting to see what you are able to determine. I bet you are going to deploy the in cylinder pressure transducer to determine if it’s mechanical timing or tone wheel shift.

I had this same issue on my 2008 Pontiac G8 with the LY7 3.6 V6, happened at 65k miles in 2011 and GM dealers would not fix the reluctor wheel issue on my engine so I had a shop do the timing chains and it turns out it was completely screwed! Totally crappy customer service from GM on this issue on that engine and an absolute nightmare for customer!!! They knew about the issue and just passed it off on the customer!

I've run across this engine that had the chains replaced and had no codes for almost a year, then they showed up. The dealer went to do a chain replacement and found that the main chain, crankshaft, one had been installed one link off. The ECU compensated fine until the chains stretched some, normal wear, then it was out of limit and the death codes showed up.

Brilliant

The most obvious factor you have overlooked is the oil pressure that keeps the chains tight. I chased my tail on an Equinox with the DOHC engine, and the slippage in the timing was an internally broken, but delicate, oil pressure pump that kept the DOHC timing chains from jumping time. This was caused by a "warranty repair" in replacing the water pump & chain, but with no money in the repair for the dealer to protect the DOHC chains or the delicate oil pump that was the key to the issue. It was jury-rigged and failed w/in 4,000 miles. Put another way, assuming no slippage of the gear pressed on the crank shaft, etc., what is more likely, a chain stretching that is continuously bathed in an oil bath, or a defective oil pump that is supposed to maintain adequate lubrication of these things.

i always preferred belts to chains even though they both wear out or stretch over time and mileage. with an engine scanner you can diagnose most issues. doesnt have to be a $1000 scanner. i have one that was less than $100

What would really help nail this down exactly Is a known good in cylinder pressure waveform versus crank sync notch. Then you would know if the reluctor has moved in relation to the pistons.

@17:43 you can't think of it in distance like that. B1 ex is no farther away from the crank than the other 3. The lower chain is the disconnect, both upper chains are the same distance from each drive idler on their respective side. All stretch in the lower chain is automatically added to any stretch in each upper chain. That is where any difference in bank to bank correlation is seen, difference in upper chain stretch.

i have done numerous timing chains on these from FWD/AWD caddy srx to Acadia/traverse to Camaro. Every time i take the chain off and hang it next to a new one it its stretched longer. bad chains also cause misfire even if the p0018 codes etc are not set. Last Camaro i did only had 110k miles.. SO go figure gm v6 quality.. Stay away from these. GM has TSB for the older 3.6 stuff even claiming the chains stretch lmao. There was a warranty recall for this like 10 years or miles etc on the older stuff. I also recommend not taking this job!!! The best way is using a lift and dropping out the engine and transmission on the ground if its Front-wheel Drive!! RWD can be done in car easily/Camaro etc. It is a monstruous fight to do it in the car FWD/sideways engine!!

We had an exhaust cam reluctor shift on the end of the cam! There was a tab on that also, replace the exhaust came solved the problem!😊

I have these codes in my 2008 Cadillac SRX, along with P0018. However, i just had all the timing chains and sprockets changed 22k miles ago. The only thing that wasn't changed was the VVT solenoids....so despite what you say about just changing those parts, sometimes those parts are the issue.

Good morning!

That's what I thought. It runs ok. Keep driving it until it doesn't and save up for some engine work.

I never really understood why these early high feature V6s eat timing chains. It seems like we blame later chain failure on the direct injection but these first gen ones are port injected. In any event, as I have said time and time again, the Northstar is the much better choice in these Sigma STSs and SRXs. I had one of each and guess what - no timing chain problems. Or any engine problems.

A Cadillac lasted 16 whole years before planned obselescence kicked in? GM let that one slip through the cracks. The more I watch yours and East Main's videos the more I realize I will probably never buy any US brand vehicles, most especially GM. I just bought my first Toyota, a 4Runner, last year and after having some parts replaced and fixing up some neglected things on it I am surprised it has ran as well as it has, and the parts Toyota designed for the drive train are beefy compared to my old Cherokee, it's no wonder they are so robust.

Well most of us have felt reality laughing at us while while stare at our broken, but still good enough to use broken equipment that we can't afford to fix.

Looks like that ABS problem is the least of this car's issues. And what's with timing chains on GMs? Say what you will about BMWs, but I have a '94 740iL that's had its share of problems through 240k miles, but the timing chain? Never an issue.

In the past when I’ve had a vehicle with lights on in the dashboard if it’s running good, not leaking anything,not making noise and not on fire 🔥 I just keep driving it 😂

I have a 2005 srx with 261.000 miles on it, the trick is don't let the oil go past 3.000 miles, and keep the PVC clean. Sludge build up will kill this engine.😊

I knew the early 3.6L had this problem, what have you seen on the 2016 LFX models? Has the problem shown to be better for this engine, with good oil change maintenance?

Hi Ivan , do you think primary chain can be a tooth of? from previous work on timing chains? I know those digital things are right, but how about mechanical of it? Some times i think "new age" mechanics have forgotten some of their skills, without those fancy computers, they cant do anything, Not you Ivan, I have seen you to do that, just old good ways also. And doing those "russisn" fixes too, those are best in your channel. By the way do you know any channel of doing these old (30 - 50 years) german cars, like mercedes and vw bugs, I would be more than gratefull of that information, because my youngest car is now 35 years mb and oldest is 52years old beetle, in fact same as my honda 350 twin.

I thought I remembered reading or watching a video that if you scope all 4 cams and they should have a rising and falling edge that all align.

I did 2 Alloyturds timing kits & oil pump (LY7 3.6 & LF1 3L) in Commodores last week for the P0017 & in my experience it's usually the first code to set, both run great now but it's a very expensive job.

How many degrees is each tooth on the crank? Move the chain to make up the difference?

More GM JUNK! Close the hood and RUN!!

I just saw (with borescope) front 3 cylinder pistons CRACK when the chain stretched too much. P0300 can also point to a fatality with these engines. 😮

About the crank reluctor wheel...so sad an automaker cheaps out on a buck or two and doesnt key the reluctor to the crank. Man, i am glad i dont own that crap

Replace Crankshaft In this day and age of technology/electronics I wonder if there is a "Hack" for tricking the computer "10" degrees

My thoughts are that the software looks at the timing of the first bank first and if its off, it flags the code and goes no further with other codes on the second bank, other than the performance code which the software looks at sometime later.

Time to throw the timing chain parts cannon!

I replaced timing chains on a 2010 with a cloyey kit. About 6 months one chain broke in two. Replace again and about 6 months broke in two and destroyed cylinder head. Installed oem chain's couple of years still going.

Would quality replacement chains prevent his from happening again in the future on this car?

I’ve got a p0017 on a 2012 Acadia with the 3.6 only code that’s comes back dealer don’t know what to do. So I keep driving it engine sounds fine 🤷🏼‍♂️

Sure would be great to have “ known good” and “ known bad” timing charts to skip all the guessing. Especially on something as spendy as a timing chain job diag.

Timing chains, why? Why not belts instead?

Have to do the chains on my Holden VE. It has 380.000km's on it .

Hopefully the owner doesn't end up a chain smoker! Nice scope work as usual to link to the issue.

Good, that was a hard call.😎

Both my 3.8 Commodores went past 500,000 km with no engine work done. Oil change 6,000km. Clean oil, clean air and clean fuel plus drive it like you love your wife.

Driving it like that probably will cause damage long term, but it has a lot of miles, it is not your cross-country car, you do not need emissions, drive it till it drops.

Is a sts 3.6 chain job really bad? Not so bad?

Going to the son in laws house with no horn and and airbag light on. Taking the Autel wish me luck LOL

The 3.6 has 2 secondary chains for the cams and 1 primary chain ! more frequent oil changes with a good GF-6 oil could prolong the life of the chains ! I believe the GF-6 was formulated for these issues on all modern cars with timing chains ! Plus there may even be a little alkalized napthaline in the formula which basicly " motorkote " ! I use that in everything cause its proven !

dont remember if the cadillac had the special policy for the bicycle chains in that era but the traverse/enclave did. supposedly not using the synthetic dexos ate the plating off the chains and they stretched. of course not gm's fault, it was poor maintenance, you could try programming. gm tries to fix lots of mechanical issues with software....... no vacuum on your silverado? lets program the abs so it activates quicker when it has low vacuum so you don't notice it. the traverse and enclave even had a service update to add coolant for a leaking water pump. yep.. they claimed a low coolant condition causes a water pump leak.

3.6 are good for 50,000 miles and the timing chains are done!!!!

Only way I could see is if the aftermarket unit isn't reporting the position with as much accuracy as an oem, and the extra "slop" hid the problem.

Couldn't you move the chain on the crank sprocket by one tooth?

3 chains and multiple vvt sprockets. What could possibly go wrong

Fourth! I can remember when Cadillacs had a christmas tree above the rear window you could see in the rear-view mirror. If that is the GM 3.6 LFA engine it is really a pile with only 85,000 miles. While a 2008 Suzuki XL-7 has that 3.6 liter engine, I KNOW your '02 does NOT; if it did you wouldn't have it. The 'ol Marquis had 497,000 miles and I wonder what condition the chains are in on that 4.6 modular. I will bet they have been ground up into shavings. NAH! GREAT VIDEO!

Drive it til it drops. That's my motto. Then again, a 1995 Ford Ranger with a 2.3 and a 5 sp will run forever. Toughest truck Ford ever built. I owned a Caddy in the 90's. Never again.

Good diag.