Going Second is ACTUALLY Better in Yugioh (Mathematical Proof) 

Today i play a going 2, deck with only board breakers. I won the tournament 4/0/0.

As someone who tried out blind second in masterduel here are my general takes on board breakers: 1. Against decks like branded or snake-eyes, they often have lots of recovery which board breakers normally wont stop and handtraps would. This is especially relevant for cards like drnm which ensure opp gets another turn. 2. One board breaker is often not enough, and there are ways decks can play around board breakers like committing to varied interruptions like combining traps, gy effects, and on field negates. Not every deck will, but the ones that do will screw you over. Not to mention ftks/burn that will show up every couple games. 3. For a bo1 like masterduel, lot of board breakers are more situational than handtraps like ash blossom (imagine you drew drnm against lab, you’d lose) 4. They often have much larger costs than handtraps. The “cost” of nibiru giving the opponent a token is kinda nonexistent. The cost of drnm or evenly giving up your battle phase ensures the opp gets a second turn. Or ultimate slayer or superpoly forcing you to spend extra deck spots. Plus if you have a in-archetype lock like a lot of rogue decks, you can still play nibiru but cant play cards like kaijus. There is a reason blind second decks like mikanko and numeron dont see much competitive play.

The main problem is that one card accrues so much card advantage that if you dont negate it, your now down sometimes 6 cards compared to the opponent, and one board breaker wont get that back. DRNM is good, but the opponent still has all their grave yard, all their backrow, and whatever handtraps they drew. To elaborate, if you were to kaiju A snake eye board, you spent one card to remove one fourth of a resolved snake eye ash, where impermanence stops all of snake eye ash.

I like that you played against an extremely tough board and not too sackie because you also were Maxx Ced and Scythe locked. This was legit gameplay as it gets. Kudos for that.

In a 1 game format such as Master Duel, blind second decks are generally better than they would be in other formats because in other formats, you just tech against your opponent in games 2 and 3.

The thing you're ignoring is that most of those boardbreaker aren't enough by themselves against SE. More often than not, you'll need 2 board breakers, making the math vs handtraps a lot more equal. Also, based on the SHS opponent's hand, you could've gotten FTK-ed, and board breakers don't really help against that

LAVA GOLEM!!! I didn’t know you could search it with anything besides small world

If is wasn’t for goofy ah locks like puppet and secret village I’d never play a handtrap especially after using the runick engine lol

- Handtraps can be used going first or second. Board breakers can't (except Super Poly). So it can't back up your own board. - One board breaker often isn't enough to entirely break a board,. We even saw this in your example duel. - Board breakers are dead if you get Secret Village, Puppet or Scythe locked etc... where a handtrap may have prevented that. Your own example duel proved this. - If you let one card resolve in Yugioh it can accrue a massive amount of advantage. This is not worth the trade of for using board breakers instead because they will have infinite follow up. - There's no game plan with a blind second deck for when forced to go first. This is less of a factor in Master Duel because it is not real Yugioh. - Your example duel is not representative and in fact proves that board breakers should not be used in place of hand traps. Dogmatika is already one of the better blind second decks but ironically, it would have lost to a single handtrap. An Imperm or Alba Zoa making your Dogmatikas affected, an Ash on Matrix etc... You got incredibly lucky, the board breakers didn't help you win that one, it was the fact your opponent WASN'T playing hand traps that allowed you to win, combined with the fact that Dogmatika has lots of removal and doesn't need the Extra Deck. If you were playing any other deck, you had already lost because of the Scythe lock you couldn't prevent due to playing board breakers instead of hand traps.

who are you exposing my secrets ?

The funny thing about Maxx “C” is it plus junk synchron is full synchron combo 😂

Reject hand traps embrace board breakers 🗿

I think the main takeaway is that if you already have a lot of hand traps in the main you can easily max out on board breakers going second since you will pretty much always go second at least once a match. Feel like just about every side deck card is specifically for going second anyways besides your judgements and strikes or floodgates (rip summon limit lmao). Sometimes it’s best to stop the board than break it but both are valid options Id say

While i agree with the theory i think it is naive to think that 1 boardbreaker is enough to stop a deck. Like None of those boardbreakers would stop for example a Puppet Lock, Still having to draw 2 boardbreakers still better. Also going 2nd u can draw 3 HTS and be fine since u also didnt include the 6th card of possible engine here.

Great video again! I actually just changed my Dogmatika Ritual build as a going 2nd to resolve my Dogmatikamatrix better besides the 6 cards in hand. Definitely wayy better than my previous handtrap build. Also, Pankratops brings so much value in one card as a summon that doesn't start a chain, has good stats, and a dodging effect into a pop so I would indeed recommend it too

Do you build your going-second decks to have a plan when forced to go first? Thats the gamble when going all-in on board breakers. I usually use enemy controller instead of one of the normal spell board breakers for this reason

Well done man. This video is gold. This is what I try to explain to my viewers, you do the same but with stats. I love it

I'm not really agree here, the math is ok but unless you play a specific deck for going second, there are a lots more things to concern. Going second card is really tricky. Not every decks will just die by you dropping 1 going second card, or will just leave you to combo-off like nothing. some decks even need specific answer to shut down it. HT, Gy, eff, follow up can be a thing to distrupt your play. Especially lingering eff like dweller, spell/trap to distrupt for example. Your deck also has to be very suitable with it, something like ninja, salamangreat are not as good to out opp board. Many of their decks combo can be distrupt and that can shutdown your game too, you have to both fufil the condition of clearing opp board a lot by 2nd cards. These 2nd can be a big opportunity for 1 turn while can be a big downside if you can't use it's short advantage to switch the game. Many combo decks but not everyone will play drnm because their deck is not suitable for out opp board in 1 turn Most people prefer ht because of it's versatiles can be use in almost any decks, while going second cards depend on situation. Ht can be use both to distrupt minor opp plays or right now in the meta, it can be a bonus distrupt for opp plays. Many good decks play around ht, they lowered the opp final board so their deck can play out it. It's not just about people dropping full going second cards because in this meta when many ht, other kinds of distrupt like spell/trap, lingerring eff and recovery, sometimes you don't have an ability to end opp board (Something like boss monster) and have to invest more about out opp resources. That is where 2nd cards is weaker in this aspect, because who knows opp will prepare any things for 2nd turns? You sure you could both out the board and set enough distrupt to stop opp? And Side deck problems, you can make sure you win when opp went first, but in 2nd, 3rd game you still have to side deck to change playstyle, because with opp side deck like summon-limit(ban), floodgates, anti ht like triple, control cards like kash,... Your normal board needs to have more supports and the case of you going 2nd and out opp board will be less likely by their specific counter cards. Also, you need to check if your deck has answer 2nd cards for spell/trap decks, midrange or combo decks. Overall I appriciate your math, but when come into a real game state, players will prefer for more control thing like going 1st, set up your board rather than hope for only going second cards.

Loved the video. Will definitely try this out. Good stuff man. Would love to see more videos playing this style 👍🏻

Very interesting topic (at least the strict math portion), appreciate u sharing it. Of course the are some nits that can be picked, since some things do seem a tad oversimplified, but overall i still think we can learn some things from this. Also Jesse, u can consider adding timestamps for future vids, so its easier when someone wants to go back to a specific part like the "handtraps paradox" part, etc.

After 4 years of playing purely going first decks, I finally broke my own rusty shell and started trying heavily going second focused decks. Playing cards like Nibiru and Kaijus just feels right. Combining that with universal working cards like Forbidden Droplet and Droll is absolutely fire. Most of the times, a Kaiju is enough to crack or at least weaken a decks defense enough to handle the rest, even in cases like Snake-Eyes. Droll singlehandedly (or singlecardedly...?) kills most decks combos entirely, Forbidden Droplet "EMPs" almost every board there is, going second or going first. Works well to me and I don't need to deal with automatically losing rounds, just because I didn't dice a higher number than my opponent. Makes tournaments way more worth visiting. It's piss boring to attend to one to then basicly skip 3 out of 5 rounds because you didn't win a dice roll. I'm also not interested in playing Solitair for 15 minutes straight to then simply denying any form of play to my opponent 💀

Honestly this is one of the best yugioh vids I've seen in a while. This is speaking my language

Bruv stumbled upon your videos since my recommended videos are mainly yu gi oh shizzle but your channel is really sublimely good to get me to understand the statistics behind deckbuilding and such and such!! Really nice, keep it up boiiii

I watch 25 min of an extreme helpful video to get the information that drytron isn't a good going second in the last seconds. I wanna still try

Another great video. Can't wait for the next one!

Cool video. Imo it misrepresents the situation a bit. If going second is so great why isnt everyone doing that? Well there are many reasons. One thing that I noticed is that you equated the effect of 2 handraps to a single board breaker. This might be true against some decks,but in the current tcg format that is not the case. The current best deck in the tcg, snake eyes fire king, does not lose to a single boardbreaker. Why is that the case, because the interruptions are varied and spread out across different parts of the game(the field,the grave,the backrow,the hand). 2 h.t.'s can stop them from getting to that position in the 1st place. You were also , intentionally or not, misleading with the example you showed in ss samurai. The endboard absolutely folded to a single board breaker that you conveniently drew. Theres also the question of followup,yeah you might break their board,but they still have their resources loop set-up,can you compete with that as well? If youre not playing the best deck or are not otk-ing them that turn, probably not.

Thanks Jesse! Really helpful information. Look forward to seeing more and more of your content.

Really interesting topic. I’ve noticed that hand traps have been feeling weaker as of late. Glad to see I’m not crazy lmao.

I would like to see videos about the following: 1) Mathematically optimal deck building rules in Master Duel. Is it necessary to account for going second and is it okay to run a certain amount of going second only cards? 2) An explanation of the significance of 85%, in general statistics and how it applies to YGO deck building. 3) Building decks for specific archetypes using statistics.

I like your style. Going from theory to examples to a replay does a good job.

I found the exact video i was searching for, thank you alot at solving format!

Amazing video bro! Keep it up. Love the energy and the teachings

I think this is a nice argument for going second. There is a lot of merit to what you said and it's going to be even better going second now with less generic negation and some more and more good going second cards being released. That being said, there are two things that make going second a difficult strategy to bet on: 1. lingering floodgates. 2. Towers monsters (if you haven't drawn exactly the out). If the meta didn't have either of these things, I think, yes, going second would be viable.

Genuinely a very interesting and lovely math video! Because of how I have relied on Ash, Imperm, that I didn't think about forbidden droplet and the kaijus. Thank you! Time to run it back

I've ALWAYS loved running Raigeki and Harpie's Feather Duster in my main deck, plus they were my favorite childhood spell cards. It'd be amazing if they came up with cards that function like Raigeki, Harpie's Feather Duster, and Mirror Force but banish instead of destroying. I'm running 2 Kurikara, 2 Raigeki, 2 Super Polymerization and 2 Dark Ruler No More in my side deck. The Dark Ruler No More + Raigeki combo is nice. If I played Master Duel, then I'd probably have to main deck Dark Ruler No More.

A solid perspective of the current format as evidenced by your video

I personally think evenly matched is one of the best boardbreakers, provided it actually goes through

Dude you blow me away with each video you drop. So thorough

The biggest and arguably only weakness of decks built around these board breaking cards is if the opponent makes you go first 😅

In Master Duel, there is one event that let players choose 1st to duel with players who choose 2nd. In the end, players who choose goes first have more win rate than going second.

Some decks I play some board breakers anyways because they already do so much going first that you can run 6-9 hand traps and thats the perfect number because take Spright for example if you start with Nimble Beaver or Spright Starter you already 1 card combo your way into 2 different negates, I:P into S:P, and Spright Smashers or the trap that let's you turn your opponents monster into a xyz material. So a lot of decks that can do this much or more just as consistently or more consistently more often than not don't to stop their opponent before its their turn. You can run Ash and Imperm in the main deck and Droll in the side and depending on what player the only dramatic increase in win percentages will generally only come from cards like Dark Ruler No More. So In a lot of decks you can play Droll for decks like Dark World and Ash Blossom for cards like Branded Fusion. If you keep your opponent from gaining to much advantage and use board breakers when you need to more times than not deck that have the potential to do to much in one turn will have a 85-95% chance of winning if you play the deck well enough.

I started playing Blind 2nd Snake-Eye for fun, and I have had decent success. Relinquished Anima+Subversion+Flamberge is 3 pieces of removal that you find really easily thru your regular combo, that is already pretty good at playing thru disruption. The Field Spell makes it easy to OTK once you've cleared the board. Forbidden Droplet is an amazing card for Snake-Eye, setting up your GY for Flamberge and Oak, or letting you dodge Imperm like Linkuribo used to. Still working on finding the right extra deck tho. I want Super Poly Targets and a Zues Package to play thru Shifter, but I also want to keep a sizeable link package so I can play for turn 3/4 when I can't OTK.

At the end of the day it comes down to luck and preference. There was a regional where I drew Droll going 2nd as my 6th card vs Mannadium. I think most players prefer hand traps atm cuz going 2nd, it is one of the 5 starting cards to prevent your opp from getting too much advantage and if you go first, you can layer hand traps with your usual board to surprise your opponent. Duster and evenly are only ok cuz they can get rid of boards but not hand traps. Good insight regardless and I think it will ultimately depend on the user and their playstyle. Some decks like Kash inherently have Fenrir as a boardbreaker in tcg so might not need as many non engine ones.

This was a fun video! Please make more.

I am playing go 2nd dogmatikas every month to M1 and can approve of this. great video

Ive been saying this for a long time (i exclusively play master duel) going 2nd is so much easier than people say because how unbelievably strong going 2nd cards are

ive always believed that going second was the better option in yugioh but could never seem to make it work... (reason being I was to focused on using board breakers) now that you have broken it down especially with the math and statistics as well with the correct cards to use going second im very happy i came across the video. I will definitely be giving it another shot and excited to see the results... now i just need to get my hands on a play set of ultimate slayer and droplet. I never saw the utility in ultimate slayer until now.. mark my words going second will be much more dominate over the next year or two in yugioh. I guess were just ahead of the curve now. Many thanks!

Cool! I asked about going second on an earlier vid - this is everything I wanted!

This video is exactly what the Yugioh community needs. I have believed this for so long, but i know its not a popular theory because theres not as much evidence to prove its viable. But this video ceetainly helps. And going into the current TCG format, its going to be impossible to shut down players even with two hand traps. Thank you for making this video. I loved the replay too, you absolutely destroyed that Super heavy player. I would love for you to take some of the things people have said here in the commenrs and make a follow up video with your thoughts! Dont let the close-minded critics get to you! Keep being amazing! ❤

Hello! Very interesting video! Where can I find the deck profile for the Dogmatika deck you use in this video?

Great video. Will use this knowledge

I like these analytical videos. Im gonna need more examples with no hand traps though

I always enjoy going blind second, feels more fun for me. I'd say board breakers are great for slower decks since usually a player would just vomit out most of their Extra Deck turn 1, and breaking their board means their ceiling will reduce as well (i.e. snake-eye can recover a lot of their cards, but Aposula ain't one of them), so their turn 3 board will be much easier to break. Plus, with the new banlist getting rid of 2 of the most prominent omni-negators that most decks can use, it means that your board breakers are more likely to go off.

Do you have the decklist for what you used in the video?

I currently am tinkering with my marincess deck and I like to play 2 triple talents and 2 forbidden droplet for game 1 as I don’t know if I will win the coin flip and I feel like those cards do well in simplified game states. However I don’t have 3 of each because I want to minimize the chance of drawing multiple copies. I still run a lot of hand traps. But infinite impermanence (which I believe is a must include) also can act as a pseudo board breaker in it of itself part of why it is such a great handtrap. Especially because marincess already cycles an archetypal negate that you want to save for your opponent’s turn in wave. So you can have the freedom to hold imperm in hand.

As a Gem-Knight player I thank you for your contribution

Awesome content!

Feels like this video was made before the banlist great video still 💪

Invoked is fire going second honestly. Just cram your deck with as many hand traps as possible and then add the invoked package along with hornet drones and a few other tech pieces to get into the link monster

1:48 where are you getting these figures from?

In the current format I feel the issue with handtraps is that when you give up going first these decks accrue massive advantage, you need to spend cards to get onto the board and then you often get hit by the same handtraps anyway. That said I've been a blind second enjoyer who plays a lot of Mekk so I'm down to try. Especially with Ninja since it usually goes first but that turns off their strongest card.

I just tried out sky strikers with the advice...omg i had like droplet, super poly, ultimate slayer and so many other power spells vs a snake eyes board

Great video as always. Thank you for doing the maths

Well done , i've really appreciated your video , but i have one small question : you say we can still play maxx C in master duel , but for TCG , how about the "new maxx c" that will be released and that allow you to draw card only on summon from hand and force you to discard if you have to much card ? (I don't remember the name of that card)

You can use Forbidden droplet to stop the puppet lock. You can use evenly matched to stop the secret village lock. I might just have to switch

Thanks a lot for demonstrating something I though but couldn't prove. I love your approach to the game. Could you please give me a decklist?

The goal would be to find a deck okay going first also when your opponent forces you to go first in paper.

is there a decklist for the dogmatika deck you used?

You can turn off Super heavy samurai by siding in a playset of electric virus, and a playset of dark mirror force.

I'm going to write this comment while watching so i don't forget stuff 0. Are we talking Master duel or actual TCG? 1. 2 HTs is not necessarely the optimal number,it depends on your deck and the format itself 2. Destroying cards IS NOT BAD,triggering floating effects/baiting negates at your whim and not when your opponents wants to is a big factor in breaking a board 3. Calling Gameciel better than NIb,Evenly or imperm is straight up ignoring the huge utilty that those cards offer in a wide format,also the impact they can have going first 4. ironic that we call Lighting storm bad cause it destroys and then sing the prays of Ultimate Slayer send Ntss 5. while Spoly is strong,not a 2for1 but a 2+forX(where 2+ is the number of cards you spend,and X is the number of cards you manage to spoly away,which can vary a lot) 6. Ever noticed that archetypes better are going second are usually bad? like the ninjas you showed? 7. We're not even considering the existance of Turn Ending Handtraps in this discussion So,while the math is good,the video is deeply flawed in its logic Hope to see better from you in the future

Thoughts on Metaltronios? If they nib you can Go into Galaxy eyes Cipher> Galaxy Eye Armor, pop>exchange into Galaxy Eye Cipher Blade and pop a 2nd card and push. Also quickplay so it's defensive as well. Malicious is to S:P (dark warrior) and I:P (Dark 100atk). Coiuld be like an Etele for Malicious lol

Board breakers is a much more enjoyable playstyle. One of the problems with board breakers is finding the right engines to pair them with: can play through an interruption doesn't need its normal summon, doesn't need too much extra deck space

could i get the decklist for the dogmatika deck you used as an example?

Really really love your content. Im actually on 3 maxx c and 6 board breakers but i go first all the time. Do you think I'm better off just going 2nd? Im playing tear and I have been doing that for 3 weeks now.

I usually go second for the sole purpose of being able to do battle damage to my opponent first.

I think this guy is a time traveller from the time where tenpai finally came out to the tcg

Impressive showmanship keep the content coming 👏

Add always interesting data. I do think that there's nuance here, but it still creates the type of discussion that's healthy for the game

Great video. Love the data-driven perspective you offer. I want to add some criticism to help make your arguments stronger. One thing you want to mention in your statistics: you want to pull two handtraps/going second cards *with different names*. Going second and drawing two DRNM or super poly is a dead card. Gamaciel is an exception because you can use the second as either another removal spell after getting rid of the first, as an extra body. So I’d like to see the calcs of running multiple two-of going second cards versus three-of of fewer cards. Now, why did it take until 15:29 to mention Thrust and Talents? First, Talents the most versatile, powerful, with less commitment than any other card you mentioned. A card your audience already knows is good. Second, Thrust’s ability to act as a wild card vastly increases the consistency of drawing these outs. Except better because you can grab the one that’s best in this situation. Mentioning Thrust earlier would allow you to add its wildcard status to your statistics, making your argument much stronger. Plus, thrust can let you run situational one-of cards you can search with it. For example, evenly into rescue ace or non-synchro snake eye fields. Finally, get that anecdotal evidence crap out here (joking). You’re the statistics man. Show me statistics. There are add-ons to help you track win rates. These add-ons can give you great data like the win rate of the cards you suggest. Now, doing that by yourself, I’d expect a sample size of about 10 non-outlier duels. Even better would be if you could your community, or ask someone else’s community, to get you more data. That last bit will be harder to do until your channel gets bigger. So I’d check if you can filter these tools, like Untapped, for the kinds of duels you’re looking for. If the tool doesn’t let you directly, chances are you can ask them for the data you’re looking for. Edit: you could also grab your data from tournament runners.

I gave up building turn one boards a while ago. Now I just tune out once I'm out of interruptions and just ask what I'm playing through. Invoked with purg is a nasty board breaker. I also was playing skull servant until they took linkuriboh

What software are you using for your graphs?

my entire locals knows i play cydra, and blind second does win some games, a lot of my losses is me getting floodgated out, puppet or calamity. It ends up having to open droplet each time.

Can you provide a deck list or a list of the ideal going second cards? Also, is there a good going second card that negates or removes spells/traps?

Can this method be used for any deck? Or primarily going second decks? I play mannadium which I believe is a go first deck.

shadoll fusion was one of my favorite going 2nd cards

13:21 You know what, this was a realization for me. I play a lot of master duel but I also watch a lot of Jaiden BR, he's a HERO main who, *every season* , climbs to Master 1, with Heroes. Now he does play Ash Maxx C and Called By like everyone else in master duel, but he also plays Super-Poly, Forbidden Droplet, and recently, Destiny Hero Plasma. Heroes are also inherently good into a boardbreaking strategy because you inherently have room for cards like super-poly. But *Watching* his videos there was always that moment where he'd be down, and he'd need some big play to out his opponent's board, and, heart of the cards, its droplet.

I applied this same logic to construct an anti-meta deck and my winrate improved a lot compared with the handtrap version of the same deck. I've been applying mathematical thinking to deckbuilding and came out with a very potent build. If such a low tier deck gets an amazing boost because of intelligent deckbuilding, I'd guess a more competitive deck can take full advantage of applying logic and math when deckbuilding.

Getting rid of borreload's link only takes away the attack boost. Negating him removes his counters.

Can you do the stats for pulling packs and how many cards you'd need from the pack for it to be considered "good" (conditional) odds. I know that with pity adding 9.8% to get any UR makes the odds around 18% for a UR per 1000 gems or close to it. But the math would really help decide if I should wait for Material or pull

Droplet is dope too cause it can be used defensively

I love how you mime drawing a card at around 13:00. Duel disk is iconic

Interesting math you got there. I'm just wondering, if you want to go 2nd, what do you to, if your opponent Calamity locks you or Gimmick puppet locks you?

Very insightful

Reason why i like going first is to set up my Crystal Beast Negate Spell/Trap/Effect strategy. I cant really do that ideally if I go second.

as a branded player, yes. no handtraps for my puppet setup.

Played blind second Purrely in MD for a bit between when Delicious Memory was first put to 1 and the release of Snake-Eyes Caught a ton of people off guard with DRNM and Red Reboot into 2-Happiness and ZEUS to simplify the game and even got to Master 1 with it Was fun for a while until Snek-Eye ruined it by hiding all their interaction in the GY / floating effects >~< (and I couldn't use Evenly because 2-Happiness and ZEUS require attacks!)

I probably win more games in Master Duel when I resolve Nibiru or Evenly Marched than Ash or Impermanence. Ash and Impermanence can stop your opponent in their tracks aswell, but you need to know your opponents deck well enough to know which cards to use them on.

The best performing deck I've ever made was a 44 card go second Numeron Gren Maju deck in master duel. It had an 84% win rate by the time I stopped playing it.

I think blind second with a going 2nd deck is "stronger" because 95% of the time your opponent is going to want to go first and has built their deck to be good at doing that, dedicating their side deck towards going 2nd and anti-meta tech cards. If your deck is best built at going 2nd and gets to go 2nd 99% of the time it's going to have slightly better results than a going 1st deck with 50% chance of going 1st. Going 1st still has an insane advantage if you look at it from what you can set up. Also it really throws your opponent off if you choose to go 2nd with a traditionally non-going 2nd strategy, and may even mess up their side decking letting you go 1st if they lose or you choosing to go 1st if you lose, allowing you to side in going 1st cards they might not expect or side against.

Omega hand loop has entered the chat. Good luck with those board breakers