Golden Plates and the Book of Mormon | Ep. 1583 | LDS Discussions Ep. 02

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Today John is joined by LDS Discussions and Nemo to review the history of the "Golden Plates" as they relate to the creation of the Book of Mormon.
Who did the first accounts come from of the existence of these plates? Were they real? What became of attempts to see, show, or steal them? What implications do these stories have on Mormon origins and beliefs regarding encounters with celestial beings, including the God supposedly at the center of their coming forth?
Special Guest: ‪@NEMOTHEMORMON‬
LDS Discussions Essay: www.ldsdiscussions.com/plates
LDS Disc Full Playlist: • LDS Discussions - An E...
Video Chapters:
00:00:00 Introduction
00:04:07 Overview of the puzzle of evidence
00:05:50 Timeline of the Gold Plates accounts
00:07:55 Joseph’s 1823 visitation from Moroni/Nephi
00:13:27 Joseph’s 1823 attempt to retrieve the plates
00:20:50 Problems with the 1823 Gold Plates account
00:22:45 Oliver Cowdery on why the 1823 attempt failed
00:25:40 Joseph told to bring Alvin for the 1824 attempt
00:26:50 The 1824 attempt to recover the Golden Plates
00:28:55 Fallout from Alvin’s death and the 1824 Attempt
00:32:30 What to make of Joseph Smith Sr’s announcement?
00:35:35 The 1825 and 1826 attempts to retrieve the plates
00:44:30 The creation of the “spectacles”
00:45:15 The Book of Mormon spectacles
00:51:45 A second account of the spectacles
00:52:25 The 1827 retrieval of the Gold Plates
01:00:20 Emma’s Role in the 1827 retrieval
01:07:50 What a “Hollow Tree” Looks Like
01:12:30 Watching the plates through the seer stone
01:17:02 Bringing the plates home land the mad dash back
01:22:55 Joseph arrives home with the plates
01:27:30 What the plates would have looked like
01:28:20 Could Joseph Smith have created a prop set of plates?
01:33:00 Problems with the Idea of Gold Plates
01:36:39 Gold Plates are one of Fair Mormon’s “Best Evidence”
01:37:18 The Mormon Church is touting these places, too
01:37:55 All about the Pyrgi plates
01:38:40 Why the Pyrgi Tablets are Problematic for the Book of Mormon
01:44:38 Math, Gold Plates, and the Book of Mormon
01:51:53 Conclusion of LDS Discussions about Gold Plates
02:00:17 What really matters
Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/podcast...
The Creation of the Mormon Church | LDS Discussions: • Joseph Smith’s First V...
LDS Discussions Playlist: • Joseph Smith and Treas...

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24 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 382

@bknecht2491 11 месяцев назад

What you learn in the church is like watching a trailer to a movie. It's out of order and vague and you might think wow this movie looks really good, but it's not the same thing as watching a movie. These discussions are like actually watching the whole movie from start to finish and then making a decision to whether or not it's a good movie. Thank you for this work. It's helping me put so much to rest. And while it's making me so sad it's bringing me peace at the same time.

@robbie41090 8 месяцев назад

"You lose people from the church when you lose control of the information they have access to." That was perfect, Nemo!

@zap... 2 месяца назад

Control the narrative, control the people.

@littlecheii1258 4 месяца назад

I grew up in a Mormon household. I went to church every Sunday. I stopped going in Highschool when my parents divorced but I still believed despite having question and doubts, especially about how my skin was a curse and I was descendant from an evil people called lamanites. However I stumbled upon Mormon stories and the CES letters it only answered all my concerns and opened my eyes. It still is tough to fully dismiss the church but I still believe in God. I just don’t know where to go now for church. Or what to do. That the hard part.

@thesimplesaguaro Месяц назад

c 1:19:15 heck out How to Leave the Mormon Church by Alyssa Grenfell ❤

@w.larson34 Месяц назад

@littlecheii1258 If there is an LCMS or WELS Lutheran Church near you they might be a good alternative, especially if they use the services from the hymnal.

@Mon-Alisa 2 года назад

These episodes with Mike/LDS Discussions are sooo good! They explain everything so well. Everything makes so much more sense on this side of the fence. I like that everything shared in these episodes has been to the point and well organized, and I also love hearing the interesting comments and input from each participant. Two big thumbs up 👍 👍 Keep them coming!

@kimgoeckeritz6320 2 года назад

Couldn’t agree more with your comment!

@astralclub5964 2 года назад

The LDS Church wants people to have faith in their teachings AND to believe in the actual historicity of their claims. Faith does NOT require evidence, but claims of pre-Colombian Jewish tribes in America carving golden plates very much does!

@kimgoeckeritz6320 2 года назад

This blew my mind. In my over 4 decades in the church I never heard 90% of the things shared tonight about the story of the obtaining of the gold plates. I was taught that Joseph went every year for 4 years and then the Angel Moroni gave the plates to Joseph, then he translated them and then he had to get some funding to get them published so he went to Martin Harris and had to show him the translated pages and then they were lost, so then God had to have them redo it. That is all I was ever taught. All this other info was very enlightening. Thank you for all your work.

@Paulapint3 Год назад

Don't feel alone. It was over four decades for me too. 21 to 61. I was taught exactly the way you were from the missionaries and others in the ward. It's such a shame that we were lied to for so long.

@KatD-om7xu 5 месяцев назад

Me too. I’m 63.

@matthewmitchell68 2 года назад

Thank you for your kindness John, it’s difficult to talk about this in a neutral aspect. Your kindness towards the subject helps a lot.

@ironbutterfly6835 Год назад

These three guys on the panel all work together so well! Each has a specific but essential personality trait and area of study that makes this so enjoyable and eye opening! I am not a Morman but as a Hospice home care professional I try learn as much as I can about the beliefs of my patients. At the point of death, understanding their beliefs helps me know how to comfort them. But I admit I got very “caught up “ with Mormonism during the Vallow /Daybell trial. I consider myself as a spiritual non denominational Christian that leans towards Pentecostal. In truth most denominations share tenets. This makes me question my own beliefs but not my faith. My next patient is a Native American from Comanche tribe in Oklahoma. I’m told there will be a spirit guide to guide this 93 year old lady to her final resting place. They also rely heavily on visions. Fascinating ! Thank you so much for respectful approach to Mormonism!

@SuzanneTheBossBabe 7 месяцев назад

I've been out 3 months. This episode is a lot to take in...it's overwhelming. But I'm also relieved that my thoughts and concerns about the origins of this church were something I couldn't ignore. I'm sad that my marriage will likely end, but also hopeful for my future as I won't have to live a lie.

@markpb4767 7 месяцев назад

I'm sorry for you. I hope it's turned out OK.

@oakemaka 3 месяца назад

It is very sad how many marriages are crumbling and families splitting apart so the church can continue to tell its nonfactual narrative. Many people I know are in the same boat as you. I hope things work out for you.

@DanaGunn-qr3sd Месяц назад

It’s so hard to go through this while married to an LDS spouse, I left when I was single. I do know couples who stayed married even after one spouse left the LDS church so it can work but I’m sure it’s challenging. Maybe your hubby just needs time? Hugs hun, I hope you can find peace through all of this.

@iamjustsaying1 2 года назад

Excellent panel discussion! LDS Discussions has clearly put a lot of effort into his well laid out, informative presentations. It boggles my mind that so many of us couldn't see the ridiculousness of it all while in the Mormon belief-bubble.

@LDSDiscussions 2 года назад

I often think to myself "how did I not see this" as a believer as well... our minds do some crazy things to protect us.

@trudyburgoyne808 2 года назад

Exactly!

@iffyangel3380 6 месяцев назад

My question is WHY after knowing all this, do they remain Mormons!?

@Blue-Mondays Год назад

How is this not the definition of a long con by a true con-man. This channel helps me so much. Thank you!

@lukegraven7839 11 месяцев назад

Yes a long con indeed.

@Hallahanify 6 месяцев назад

I hope this series will go more into how he was able to manipulate people and pull off this con. I'm a never in, I'm just drawn to these videos because how he was able to pull this off is fascinating to me

@InternationalMysteries360 5 месяцев назад

@@Hallahanify ditto same

@savannahcook7246 Месяц назад

I’m going through and rewatching these lds discussion videos in order to this series and the work done here is easily the best source on Mormonism I’ve ever encountered. And I’ve seen a lot of them. Thank you to Mike for doing this and creating a safe and integrity driven conversation, based in church supported fact, that tells the truth, and does so well and clearly. This work is just so beyond important. It saved my life. Thank you 🙏🏽

@King_Puffleump Год назад

How did I ever believe this was a godly man? He was one of the biggest conmen that has ever lived.

@anthonydelfino6171 Месяц назад

until relatively recently, the church had a LOT of control over the information that people have access to. I left Mormonism in 2002 and even then it was difficult to find all the information that discredits the church's claims, especially compared to now.

@slickmullet3891 2 года назад

Nemo is the best! So glad to see him on as a co-host!

@KidFreshie 2 года назад

Agreed. Soooooooo happy that Carah got too greedy errrrrrrrr I mean decided to leave for nebulous murky reasons ranging from mental health to focusing on tiktok. She really didn't fit and made things really awkward and cringe. Wish her the best though.

@nosihi3115 2 года назад

@@KidFreshie yah- she wasn’t forced to step down at all huh… she did freak out during melldrum- but don’t act like it was Carah… it happened during the heat of jessie and rosebud 🤦‍♀️

@mwillis7791 Год назад

@@KidFreshieThe audacity of someone for leaving a job for such trivial reasons as income and mental health.

@KidFreshie Год назад

@@mwillis7791 I was being facetious. It's obvious she was fired.

@caseyjude5472 2 года назад

So much backfilling -anyone who denies this WANTS to deny it. Great show, nice to see Nemo.

@tawnyachristensen7310 2 года назад

Love these episodes! Thanks for the info and analysis! So many "thoughts make reason stare" moments! Mike and Nemo are great co hosts!

@markh.harris9271 2 года назад

I have known about Alvin Smith, all of my life. Alvin's death event (death , date , burial , interment issues) is the "death knell" to the entire early mormon story from 1820 to 1827. The only difference between now and 50 years ago, is that 50 years ago (when I first heard of Alvin) it took much more work to unravel what is easily unraveled today with the Internet. The thing that ties everything together (the ties that bind) is that the ONLY reason early 19th century gullible country folk were willing to believe any of this crap, is that their "treasure digging" world view was so prevalent; the world view of magical thinking permeated their thought processes in ways that do not exist today, and is almost impossible to believe today (How in the world could people think this way?). Incidentally, Alvin's tomb stone is extant today; clearly showing the date of his death. The date of his death ALONE does not square with the early mormon account of the finding of the "Golden Plates". Combined with the actual dates of the Palmyra revivals makes Joseph Smith Jr (&company) and bald-faced liar. marcus

@steveg1961 Год назад

In regard to magical thinking - this is just a prevalent thing with human minds/culture. It's certainly not something we can just relegate to the past. It's amazing to me how even now in the 21st century, in a culture where science and technology is everywhere (our societies are built on them; if they magically disappeared tomorrow our cultures would go through severe trauma) - we still find magical thinking everywhere in all sorts of ways. So while it's quite true that the early 1800s has specific forms of magical thinking that were relatively unique to that time and place - the magical thinking is still quite prevalent today, just in different forms - and in regard to gullible people, gullibility in the 21st century is alive and well.

@markh.harris9271 Год назад

@@steveg1961 yes, no doubt

@johnmichaelson9173 Год назад

I don't know if I've got this right but I don't understand why they didn't simply assume Alvin was with God in Heaven? I mean hearing that they wanted to take the dead body of Alvin with them to meet an Angel of God!! Who surely knew that Alvin was dead, It's just batshit crazy. I'm new to all this & I'm kinds in shock hearing about all this. It's so obviously fictitious nonsense I just don't know how Smith got away with it all.

@markh.harris9271 Год назад

@@johnmichaelson9173 , well again , its because the simpletons in the "burned over district" wanted (needed) this to be true. The "golden" plates, the treasure protecting angle, the ritualistic magic thinking about the myth of burried treasure in the era was a perfect storm for Joseph (Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdrey) to take advantage of those simple minded fools who were immersed in "treasure digging" magic. marcus

@johnmichaelson9173 Год назад

@@markh.harris9271 Thanks for the reply. It's just amazing finding all of this out. I'm watching Grant Palmer & his "Ah Ha moment" & he's an interesting man. The way he's breaking down Smith's source material for the BoM, is fascinating.

@trudyburgoyne808 2 года назад

Love Nemo! Keep him coming back. This is a great episode. Thanks

@JennLove 2 года назад

Nemo is a star! He makes the lies and gaslighting so plain to see. Glad he’s here as cohost. ☺️

@joycecreech9216 Год назад

8th⁷

@VerbenaComfrey Год назад

I never thought I'd feel for Joseph Smith, but hearing "he was stuck with his earlier, maybe not entirely well-thought-out story shards, and now he has to backfill now that he's got the whole picture figured out" makes me nod sympathetically as a DM.

@Hallahanify 6 месяцев назад

Dm? Dungeon master?

@VerbenaComfrey 6 месяцев назад

@@Hallahanify Yep. Players often lap me and I have to make something make sense after the fact.

@bookermoron2409 Год назад

Joseph's story that he couldn't bring the plates home until he had a box with a good lock in which to put them is one of the silliest excuses Joseph ever came up with and that is a stiff competition. How long would it take for the treasure diggers or anyone else to break open the box with a sledge hammer or shooting off the lock or simply throwing the box on the ground. Indeed, when the treasure diggers supposedly found the box in Joseph Sr.'s cooper shop they just broke the box into pieces. Why anyone would believe this excuse is a mystery to me.

@alicecoppers8980 8 месяцев назад

what would you hide it in?

@markpb4767 7 месяцев назад

Omg, no kidding. It's so sad how people believe this bull. Smith is obviously a con man. As L Ron Hubbard said, best way to get rich is start a religion, Smith apparently agreed

@stevemitchell8267 3 месяца назад

@@alicecoppers8980 I would hide the worthless fake plates where no one could find them. After the treasure diggers destroyed the box, Joseph claimed he hid the plates in the woods and then in a barrel of dry beans on the way to Harmony. On the trip from Harmony to the Whitmer home in Fayette in David Whitmer's wagon, I believe Joseph said the angel transported the plates. And, of course, after the BOM was written Joseph claimed Moroni took the plates back up to Heaven. What's not to believe?

@cydnilisette 2 года назад

This was a very comprehensive overview of the problems with the BOM. The issues with these guys ENGRAVING their entire histories into metal plates, and how many plates that would take went onto my shelf when I was in about the 7th grade. They carried tons of plates from South America... ALL the way to New York. yeah, that happened. Honestly, I wouldn't think most of the people of that time were literate.

@danvogel6802 2 года назад

This was a very solid discussion. On statistical probability, be careful of the gambler's fallacy. On Reformed Egyptian: Many compared the Mayan glyphs to Egyptian, but compared Indian spoken language to Hebrew. See 1 Nephi 1:2.

@LDSDiscussions 2 года назад

Thank you Dan - your work has been so helpful to me throughout the last few years! :)

@danvogel6802 2 года назад

@@LDSDiscussions I look forward to future discussions.

@kevinwilson4853 2 года назад

@@LDSDiscussions vlm2 e. .haq

@kristitimbrel189 4 месяца назад

Thank You for all this information, and especially for your time, in putting this out there for me ! ... Knowledge is Power.

@KPApothecary 2 года назад

So on a nutshell, they took Emma Smith on a snipe hunt. The plates had to be golden microfiche inorder for the math to work w/number of characters, AND the characters must not repeat.

@zachgarver7922 2 года назад

To anyone's knowledge, has any BYU academician in any related discipline i.e. history, archeology, Egyptology, etc., ever presented research defending the authenticity of the Book of Mormon to an academic conference or symposium?

@juliepenrod9063 Год назад

Yes actually a professor at BYU did start digging into the truth..He was Ex'ed and canned..

@lauraoverstreet3961 2 года назад

As a person with a bad leg; I am ever conscience, of bumpy or uneven pathways! Running w/ 60lbs. Book, from 3 men in a wooded or unpaved path seems impossible!

@Vixenspirit 7 месяцев назад

Consider mine and my husband's minds blown. When I first heard about Mormon's beliefs in RE class (here in the UK twenty years ago) I thought it was wacky and not something I could ever get onboard with , but respected that this is what Mormons believed and fair play to them.. only now we discover that these are HUGE chunks of the religion that Mormons don't even know about! Mind blowing 🤯

@heleneocleary5888 Год назад

Dr John is a charismatic and highly intelligent person. I love his programmes because he is a tolerant and caring and honest person.

@LDSDiscussions 2 года назад

Thanks to everyone for listening - feel free to reply with any comments/questions/etc. :)

@nosihi3115 2 года назад

“Goals”- excommunication

@neridalee8120 Год назад

Lidar technology would easily indicate a concrete box and a buried room full of metal records...if they exist.

@bookermoron2409 Год назад

Love the videos. Two comments. First, it is obvious to me that Joseph didn't make up the excuse of having to take Alvin to the hill until after Alvin died in Nov. 1823. If Joseph took Alvin, Joseph would lose control to Alvin Joseph would either have to con Alvin or convince him to become part of the con. Second, no way Joseph Sr. was sincere in testifying at the 1826 trial about being mortified at Joseph's treasure digging. Joseph Sr. bragged about his treasure digging and was part of the digging for the silver mine which resulted in the criminal charges against Joseph.

@SuzanneTheBossBabe 7 месяцев назад

My mind is blown. I have been lied to for 26 years (as a convert), I’m now 47. I’m so shocked how easily I accepted the missionaries message about Joseph Smith. Thank you Mike for all your hard work.

@karrifohey7848 6 месяцев назад

@ldsdiscussions you have done amazing work.

@adamholloway7963 Год назад

Excellent discussion! Well worth the time to watch the entire video.

@rin-eri 5 месяцев назад

"he basically told emma to stay in the car" XDDD

@scottbrandon6244 2 года назад

At 1:17:16. This quote is from page 40 of the Ensign article. JS must have been in great shape to run with heavy gold plates like that. Has anyone ever estimated the weight of the plates if they were pure gold?

@mst3kharris 2 года назад

I read somewhere that the plates were roughly six by eight inches and reached a height of about six inches. Thus as a solid block the volume (heh) of the pages would be about 288 cubic inches. Pure gold weighs approximately .7 lbs per cubic inch. So as a solid block the pages would weigh about 201.6 lbs, or 91.4 kg. Even if I assume the plates only weigh 2/3 of their solid brick weight, it’s still 134 lbs or 61 kg. In other words, yes.

@gotthelfschwab1272 2 года назад

I have no problem with the different versions of the first vision, but from the beginning, when I converted to the church, I always questioned, how the whole content of the book of mormom could have had space on a set of golden plates. Even though I questioned it, I never spoke it out loud.

@salt1956 Год назад

Good point. I also learned recently that the plates of gold would have weighed 200 kilos. This can be calculated because Smith gave the dimensions of the plates. How could Smith have run away from robbers carrying 200 kilos? That's the weight of two grown men.

@leonardojerkovic3618 Год назад

And it never came to your mind that Jesus Christ would allow 1200 years on Earth without his beleivers? Great ApostacY theory is a big lie along with all other stuff.

@brendanelson Год назад

This is totally against the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. What are you trying to do. I am a convert of over 50 years and I know the book of Mormon and Joseph Smith are true.

@gotthelfschwab1272 Год назад

@@brendanelson thanks for your message, I became a member in 1986 when I was 21. I will stay in the church, because I found the christian religion is about having a relation with Jesus Christ and God the Father and practicing daily faith and contact with Jesus. It is good to know things but it is also good to habe faith.

@christinenewman2379 Год назад

I’ve learned so much from this podcast. Thank you so much ❤

@harlic8501 2 года назад

This has nothing to do with this episode: Um just watched the Ted Bundy documentary on Netflix. I had no idea he converted to Mormonism when he was terrorizing Utah. Apparently the whole church stood behind him? It’s WILD. I would be interested in seeing an episode on how the Ted Bundy case affected the church or changed anything in the church? Like did they come out with a statement? Did he get excommunicated? Like imagine if they didn’t excommunicate him. But they did excommunicate you. WILD.

@harlic8501 2 года назад

Or I guess his whole ward stood behind him. (I’m a never mo)

@SecretButterflyGarden 6 месяцев назад

That doesn't surprise me at all. To this day, the church is constantly standing up for and even trying to cover up crimes (usually child abuse/sexual abuse) committed by their high profile members.

@anthonydelfino6171 Месяц назад

He converted in '75 and was excommunicated after he was convicted in court in '76. Then after his arrest he stated his religion as Methodist. But yeah... especailly when they had the policy for a time that any out LBGT person would be immediately excommunicated, compare that to this. That's the level they treat both queer folks as well as a convicted serial killer.

@lauraoverstreet3961 2 года назад

Awesome dissection of the book of Mormon. THANKS.

@sladreamer 2 года назад

Can you start a playlist that has these videos so they're easy to find and in the correct order? TY!!

@mormonstories 2 года назад

Already done. Look at our playlists.

@sladreamer 2 года назад

@@mormonstories Super, found it TY so much!!!!

@chuckkv 2 месяца назад

QUESTION: Since Samuel Lawrence saw the Spectacles ("Urim and Thummin") first, before Joseph, does the church recognize Lawrence as a seer too?

@garrettheyns5464 Год назад

The deeper I get into Mormonism the more I have equal amounts of incredulity for the early Mormon “saints” and deep sympathy for Mormons.

@sjordan7085 Год назад

Years ago, I asked exactly seventeen LDS members what happened to the gold plates. Each one provided a different answer. How could anyone believe church doctrine if those who claim to be believers cannot get their stories straight? And, yes, as the previous poster mentioned, I was also told not to ever look up any anti-Mormon literature. Talk about control!

@salt1956 Год назад

Excellent episode. Great hosts. I'd like to hear more topics from Mike.

@ryanhollist3950 Год назад

On the idea of running around with the plates: I played the sousaphone in marching band. We had full brass instruments that weight about 50 lbs. The first time I put one on, I could barely muster the breath to just carry it around, let alone play it. Of course I got to the physical ability to do the parades and field shows, but it is very physically demanding. Of course, even that is nothing compared to the story claimed by JS. To do what he claimed, he would have had to be in a physical condition that matches (or even exceeds?) the physical prowess of top Olympic athletes.

@fatemeetsluck 9 месяцев назад

31:27 bruh this episode is metal af. necromancy on top of treasure magic

@libbysunsun9561 2 года назад

Like an idea, then a pause. Important ideas back to back to back

@scottbrandon6244 2 года назад

Great podcast. Re. Andrew Hedges article in Ensign Jan 2001.. In the same issue there is an art depiction of the translation process on page 22. There is no partition/curtain at the table. Only JS, OC, the plates and presumably the Urim and Thummin. No breastplate. No eye glasses/interpreters..

@scottbrandon6244 2 года назад

Add to that: and no seer stone and top hat.

@Britbec Год назад

In the first episode in this series, Jen said something along the lines of “Just when you thought you’d heard the worst…”. The Alvin Smith element of the story in this episode, was that for me. JS Sr. exhuming his own Son’s grave for the BOM charade is disturbing.

@goodstory5890 2 года назад

In all sincerity, it is extremely fascinating how, as one of you mentioned, that all it takes is for someone to see the truth through the lies just ONCE is enough to be able to see EVERYTHING clearly. Now when I listen to talks by the GAs I get this queasy feeling in my gut that whispers to me “lies, lies, lies and each time I feel I just lost myself and find myself in despair all over again 😩. Aloha 🌺

@gigi1332 2 года назад

Your not alone. I am still completely broken over being lied to about EVERYTHING for so long. So many years just lost to so many lies. 💔

@goodstory5890 2 года назад

@@gigi1332 thank you for your kindness and support. Aloha 🌺

@KatieKat75 7 месяцев назад

I, too, feel Physically I’ll when I listen to the GA’s. It is so clear to me that the entire religion (all organized religions) is based on falsehoods and lies.

@davidl2438 2 года назад

Great video. I learned much. Thanks.

@JohnJLillie 2 года назад

I am Super Excited to learn of and listen to a series about truth claims.

@FieroGroos 2 года назад

Mike’s the best! I watched all of your tick-tock’s Mike awesome thank you! you are powerful!

@alicemcnay3687 9 месяцев назад

Huge fan of LDSDiscussions. He organizes vast amounts of information from reputable sources and makes it so easy and straightforward for those of us who are not as good at compiling information.

@TM-rk5dj Год назад

Fascinating. Thank you

@hbendzulla8213 2 года назад

John D, Mike and Nemo just like the great 3 Musketeers. You have knowledge and power. You have my respect for cleaning up things factually and historically. Thank you.

@carsonsmith5301 2 года назад

John: Could you run and beat two men off 😂😂

@littlebee5048 2 года назад

Haha 😂. I thought I was the only one who heard that.

@sharinmythoughts2510 Год назад

Thank you, very helpful ❤

@djohn5528 2 года назад

"Could you run with those and beat someone off?" Hahaha ha. Shit John. Love it

@kenthknicket6500 Год назад

Well they did say the treasure Joe couldn't obtain was "slippery", so maybe the plates were a slippery slope to mutual masturbation? I'd be interested in hearing Boyd K. Packer's thoughts on this speculation.

@zackc3767 2 года назад

3 guys in a row with guns attacked Joseph...by using the guns as clubs. Got it. Seems legit. The AI in Joseph's video game is so bad.

@teresapitman1659 2 года назад

That was my thought!! If they have GUNS, why aren't they shooting him??? (sorry for the excess punctuation.) All three guys thought they'd just hit him with the guns instead of shooting him, given that's what guns are designed to be used for? And yes, why not attack him all together?

@johnhorner1969 2 года назад

Right, why did none of them shoot him lol? Like wtf? ……😂😂😂🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

@erpthompsonqueen9130 2 года назад

Thank you

@benjamingardea4511 2 года назад

The math is damning. Good luck getting around that one.

@rmandbd2 4 месяца назад

Love this episode

@janepoindexter4470 2 года назад

Did the plates come with the contraption that looks like a flip desk calendar or did they come separately? I originally thought they were two big plates. I could probably "predict" that I am going to find a feather and could find one because birds are everywhere and finding feathers, therefore, are easy to find.

@Cali_Flowers 2 года назад

Being a never-Mormon with Mormon family, I am disappointed the golden plates don’t look like dinner plates 🍽✨

@TEAM__POSEID0N 2 года назад

Well, they probably wouldn't be too practical as dinner plates. But they would serve quite nicely as square appetizer plates for hors d'oeuvres. I also always wanted to get a set to use as sushi plates.

@lauraoverstreet3961 2 года назад

As a child, in the church. I remember drawing a picture of dinner plates telling my mom they were the golden plates. 😄😆😂

@Cali_Flowers 2 года назад

@@lauraoverstreet3961 That’s darling! I’ve been thinking about this and I think kid me imagined the dinner plate shape (besides the name) from Sleeping Beauty. In the tale, the fairy godmothers had to eat from golden plates, and the king & queen baby parents didn’t have enough golden plates to host all the magical fairies at the baby’s blessing ~ the uninvited fairy was the one who cursed the baby! All because of a missing plate! 👑🧚🏼‍♀️ I have been imagining the LDS plates round & like engraved platters all my life. And you know, I’m still disappointed! ☺️

@Cali_Flowers 2 года назад

@@TEAM__POSEID0N Oh my gosh, sushi plates would be brilliant! Are there any on etsy? 🤗

@pattykake7195 2 года назад

Joe Smith could definitely give Dr. Evil a run for the money….😂🤣😂 Great episode from the 3 Shelf Busters……😲.

@senorbb2150 2 года назад

Was anyone else reminded of the Andy Griffith episode when Barney was forced to ride a black horse at midnight so that the superstitious hill people would call off a wedding?

@craigdobinson7025 3 месяца назад

I’m watching this podcast for the first time and currently up to 30:06 so about 1/4 of the way in. Great episode thanks guys and really interesting so far but just wondering - do we know where JS came up with the idea of gold plates as opposed to say a collection of papyrus scrolls. Apologies if you cover this further in. Many thanks 🙏 😊

@ROOKFORK Год назад

The witnesses and the Joseph Smith and Samuel Lawrence story remind of the Asch line test / conformity experiments.

@amanda-lynn 11 месяцев назад

1:58:40 I came across a quote recently that has help significantly with this transition of understanding the untruths I personally believed because we had no way of really knowing what we know until now, as technology and the universal understanding of life increases.. "It is easier to fool someone, than to convince someone they have been fooled." To which is attributed to Mark Twain.. which does lead one to wonder, at whether he was speaking with any specificity at what he personally witnessed with the release of the Book of Mormon...

@libbysunsun9561 2 года назад

Excellent, thank you for all the information! All these facts need to digest a bit more slowly next time if possible. Just as a public speaking feedback perspective; these facts are so important. When it is rushed, it can seem like the presenters don't want the sudience to be able to clearly 'get' everything, a la the way the LDS church has their ways of hiding information. Heavy information with dates, locations etc. Would help to speak carefully. Thanks, love your work!

@LDSDiscussions 2 года назад

Yeah I'm working on that - it's definitely not that I'm trying to rush to avoid anything, but trying to rush to cram more into the time for the episode. But I am working on planning it out better for the time we have. :)

@littlebee5048 2 года назад

@@LDSDiscussions I like the pace in this video. If I want to slow it down a little I change the playback speed. Took me awhile to discover that feature on RU-vid.

@Geospasmic 8 месяцев назад

The thing about the spectacles cracked me up, it's like kids playing make believe. But of all the stuff surrounding the golden plates, the silliest part is that they got put into a three-ring binder.

@Ilgenfixit80 2 года назад

The sealed 2/3 plates give the believers something to look forward to being revealed just like the Church of Scientology has a OT-9 level that no one knows what it contains because the original author is now deceased.

@NebjosaMeier 2 года назад

It will always be perpetually in the future, but people are catching on this will never happen.

@atg7437 2 года назад

Where's Carah? Is she coming back? I found your channel about a year ago and love the combination of John and Carah? It just hasn't been the same these past two weeks. I really believe you lose a lot without her there. I'm not an mormon (former or current), but I found Carah and John's dynamic so powerful as they interviewed people. I have really missed her the last couple of weeks and hope she is returning soon.

@mormonstories 2 года назад

Carah has branched out to do her own thing. We love her and will miss her!!! But we think Jenn is fantastic. Gerardo and Nemo too.

@lilatueller 2 года назад

Why didn’t JS use the seer stone to find the lost 116 pages of the manuscript?

@LDSDiscussions 2 года назад

That's going to be a central part of the 116 pages episode which is two from here, but yeah that's a MASSIVE red flag. :)

@TEAM__POSEID0N 2 года назад

Obviously it was because the battery died. Even though there was a usb charging cord port in the stone and a usb cord had been discovered with the stone when it was found, Joseph Smith didn't know what those were for. The stone could also be recharged (like a self-winding watch) by shaking it back and forth for 3 hours. But Joseph Smith didn't find that out until after he had already given up on retrieving the 116 pages. (As for the usb cord, Joseph Smith used it to make a bracelet and gave it as a gift to Fanny Alger.) Also Moroni could have easily found the 116 pages and could have told Joseph Smith where to find them. But Moroni was on vacation in Tahiti, dealing with PTSD caused by his experiences in the battle at the Hill Cumorah. Apparently, he had suppressed his reaction to the trauma for more than a thousand years while he focused on his mission of ensuring that the golden plates would be successfully delivered to a hyper-libidinous treasure-dig scammer in upstate NY. After that mission was completed, Moroni had nothing else to focus on and the PTSD erupted with the force of a long-suppressed volcano. It was just a very unfortunate convergence of events that ensured that the 116 pages would be lost forever. Few people know that Lucy Harris used everyone of those 116 pages to roll doobies, since the crop of "special plants" that Martin had planted the previous year turned out to be quite special indeed. Unbeknownst to Martin, it was one of those "Lucy pipes" (as the couple called them) that enabled him to finally see the stuff that Joe wanted him to see, thereby making him one of the Three Witnesses. Martin was literally smoking one of the 116 pages and neither he nor Joe had a clue.

@timandmonica Год назад

Is there a playlist for this series? I couldn't find one on your channel's playlist section. Thanks!

@amandascott-telford2072 11 месяцев назад

Love this. But the ice clinking is driving me insane.

@andeytubeyshamon 9 месяцев назад

How many plates did he say he found? One of the first things you would do is count plates - you’d be a little obsessed with them I’d have thought, looked at them and counted them? He measure them didn’t he?

@carrot-cat1746 Год назад

Loving the idea that the gold plates would be the "live, laugh, love" of etched plate records

@aliceaubalmasque3645 11 месяцев назад

Love Nemo ! I think he's such a handsome and smart man. He's got a killer smile! 💖💓

@rhondadearborn3265 2 года назад

hello, will you be having Dustin Lance Black creator of Under the Banner of Heaven tv show on Mormon Stories?

@carriew7980 2 года назад

I've been wondering the same thing lately...!

@ks4893-m8v Год назад

John mentioned in this episode that no one saw the physical plates, that they only saw them with their spiritual eyes. That may be true with the 3 witnesses, but the 8 witnesses gave a very physical description. They very likely saw a prop set of plates. (See quote below. ) Also, Mike said in an episode I listened to recently (I think it was the one on the Kinderhook Plates) that no one saw the engravings/ figures ("Reformed Egyptian") that was supposedly on the plates. Mike may have meant when Joseph Smith allegedly first got them out of the hill, but the Testimony of the Eight Witnesses says they handled each page/ plate and saw the engravings. "Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken."

@mckster56 4 месяца назад

They were always covered up so they felt something but never saw

@bookermoron2409 Год назад

The Moroni v. Nephi references are no big deal and Joseph may have just been confused and the problem arose from the 1838 version? I completely disagree. That Joseph changed the story from Nephi to Moroni is another example of Joseph changing the stories of his celestial visitations much like the 1832 v. 1838 versions of the First Vision. I think it is nonsense to say that Joseph maybe was just confused when he wrote the 1838 version referring to Nephi or that it's the scribe's fault. Joseph obviously took great care in writing and then publishing the 1838 version. And, the Nephi reference wasn't changed to Moroni until I believe the 1870s. That is not just an unimportant detail or a result of confusion. It is another indication that Joseph was making it up as he went.

@waynekasmar4401 2 года назад

Haven't seen the video yet but I'm going to be interested to see if the height of the plates stacked together is mentioned. If the entire Book of Mormon is engraved on the plates, as claimed (have I got that correct?), how high must that stack have been? Considerably taller than what's illustrated in the graphic at the beginning of the video, I would bet. Has anyone done any figuring work to establish just how high they would have been at a minimum? I wouldn't be surprise if they had to be at least as tall as a man.

@mormonstories 2 года назад

We talked about this today! Will be released soon!!!

@TheBackyardProfessor Год назад

The same math problem applies with the Book of Abraham, as Gerardo and I showed in our Mormon Stories video with John.

@brettbair2654 2 года назад

So glad that evidence clearly proves the religion to be false. A testimony of facts instead of faith.

@TheBackyardProfessor Год назад

I work with 40 lb bags of salt sometimes. You aren't running, jumping, fighting with only one arm while carrying the salt bag of 40 lbs.

@katherineburford7864 2 года назад

I've read that some of Joseph Smith's story may have come from a novel.

@mormonstories 2 года назад

Google View of the Hebrews

@andrewsuryali8540 Год назад

Hey, where's the link to the replica plate maker?

@peggynosbisch918 Год назад

WOW.... always moving the goal post was my Ex husband for sure ( he came from a Mormon Family) the basic stuck with him ...I was so abused and didn't know until many years later and now making connections with your Podcast and breaking down the Mormon Church and beliefs....

@mountainman4859 11 месяцев назад

In the 90s I met Sandra Tanner and purchased several books from her that helped facilitate my resignation from the church. One of those books, and I wish I could remember which one, addressed the treasure diggers attempting to intercept Joseph on the hill Cumorah the night he supposedly obtained the plates. If my memory serves me, he had actually formed a treasure digging company with these contemporaries of his. They believed he had actually discovered ancient treasure os something of worth out there and was using the story of the angel to justify not sharing whatever monetary gain he got from it with them. These were not the ‘bad men’ the church referred to them as. These were his friends and business partners determined to not let him swindle them out of their cut.

@tinakirkman2742 Год назад

They have found a copper dead sea scroll in cave 3. It tells of treasure and It was originally 8 feet long. It's in a museum now. They had to cut up to unroll it due to its fragile condition.

@tracygittins6343 2 года назад

Just extend Uchtdorf's silly iPhone analogy. The plates were like CD-ROMs or memory sticks. There, I fixed it.

@ks4893-m8v Год назад

Such great points - why would God have Mormon and Moroni go to all the effort of creating, traveling with and burying the Gold Plates and spectacles/"Urim and Thummim" if Joseph Smith was basically barely going to use either of them? "Borrowed" Joseph Knight Sr's carriage without asking...

@JohnGBleazard Год назад

I am enjoying this series. I am also struggling to figure out what the connection is between Mormon Stories and LDS Discussions. I've searched, as best I can, for a RU-vid channel for LDS Discussions that I can join. Or is it sufficient to be subscribed to Mormon Stories?

@mormonstories Год назад

This link should be all you need @JohnGBleazard: ru-vid.com/group/PLxq5opj6GqOB7J1n6pMmdUSezxcLfsced

@JohnGBleazard Год назад

Thank you. That helps a lot.

@dericlaursen5361 2 года назад

I want a replica set of golden plates.

@kirkharrington1508 2 месяца назад

Wow...to save face people said they saw something. That is CRAZY.

@Teltic2007 Год назад

Does anyone have any sources regarding Samuel Lawrence? I don’t see anything about him bringing the idea of the spectacles… Thank you!

@user-kw3et9ve5j 4 месяца назад

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

@kohlstrong 2 года назад

Another benefit to a "dislocated thumb" as an injury, is that it is non-visible in most cases. I've dislocated fingers before, quickly popped them back in with little visible after effect. I think you guys go out of your way a little to point to a potential cause for the dislocated thumb, but the most likely answer there, is that the injury itself was a lie. If I tell you I dislocated my thumb earlier playing Ultimate Frisbee, why would you question that? You wouldn't. I'm beating a dead horse here. The dislocated thumb most likely didn't actually occur.