Good LGBT Representation is Boring (and why that's a problem) 

This exactly.

YES I love Titus from Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidtt, even if he's a walking stereotype, because he's so gosh darn happy with who he is--and I love the flashback of his highschool days of being a closeted jock and how much of a nightmare it was being normal and popular. And on the other end, I also love Oscar from The Office being the ironic comedic "straight man" dealing with everyone's bafoonery, and knowing when and how to stand up for himself and call people out. I think it would be super unfair to consider either of them as some sort of standard or singular ambassador for gay men. We need to see variety!

or when they're writing which of these sides in one character. People have more than one side/layer and often go through several of these stages during the early explorations of their sexuality. Not always, but it would create very interesting plots, conflicts, and dynamics (both between characters and inside the characters head).

+

This is perfect as long as the creator is respectful and knows their own character it should work.

It’s the censorship and tax payer money wastage for plastic surgery and propaganda that gives trans people an entitled and selfish reputation

I think youre missing the point. I think when people write normal gays, trans, blacks, they arent doing it for that sake, and i think one of the problem with the communities is that you guys are taking it the wrong way in that sense of “not wanting _______ to look bad.” It has more to do with not stereotyping. Not every minority has this “set” persona or stereotype they are supposed to be, us minorities are more than capable of being normal people. Like for instance; I’m black. My blackness will not go away if i’m quiet, reserved and smart. A gay man will not be any less gay if he isnt talking funny or isnt wearing a pink sweater and being b*tchi.

@@thorstenmarquardt7274 trans people are not a waste & dont play like you wouldnt be paying taxes otherwise

@@chickychickist both your statements make no sense in this context and only prove why virtue signalling bullshit must be stopped at all costs

@@thorstenmarquardt7274 grow up

I think the weakness of that is that it give homophobes a reason to make broad assumptions. Many people still don't know people who are part of the lgbt nor understand any basic concepts around it other then the identity and label

@@darianbarber3763 I think no matter what we do, homophobes will always making assumptions toward LGBT,so I think good representations are important but the foundation of that is more and broad representations for sure

@@edwardlegend1564 Exactly. We shouldn’t have to make ourselves more palatable to be accepted.

Yeah tbh it feels condescending that people are scared to make gay people and women villains or antagonists these days. In trying so hard to correct some stereotypes, now it seems like the only people who are allowed to be cunning villains are straight white men, which just aligns with different stereotypes of us being lesser, less intelligent, emotional etc. A woman, little lone a gay woman, couldn’t possibly just be evil or a horrible person, or commit deeds just because she wants to, she NEEDS to have tragic backstory and redemption arc and cry about her past. Like come on, why are only dudes allowed to be evil now

It’s just so boring. Give me female villains that are unapologetically evil and male protagonists that have emotions

this isn't even difficult to write in, most members of marginalised groups will find each other quickly. when you're all excluded for the same reasons, you start to hang out with each other. if you've got an autistic male character, give him a female autistic friend. if one character leans into a stereotype, don't have non-stereotypical characters of the same group make fun of them unless they're also gonna canonically have their own issues around respectability politics. and for the love of god hire a sensitivity editor if ur discussing those topics.

@@toothfairy10133 “when you’re all excluded for the same reasons, you start to hang out with each other.” This is so true even if someone doesn’t even KNOW they belong to that group. I like that you used autistics as an example, since I’ve had a few friends on the spectrum long before I knew I was. Plus, “token straight in a group of LGBTQ+ friends realizes they’re not actually straight and/or cis” is a common phenomena that I’ve also experienced first-hand.

Yesss

@@LJA116 it's very natural to gravitate towards people with similar mindsets and experiences as you because you'll understand each other the best That's why it's so easy for queer people to "fund each other"

It's not that some people fall into stereotypes. Most do. That's why they're stereotyped to begin with because it's a fairly sized amount which is most likely above average. People just don't like stereotypes because "not everyone" is like this. If I were to say black people are tall ots a stereotype but generally they are on tbe taller side. It's a stereotype but there's nothing wrong with what I said in my observation unless you choose to take offense to it. The only other way it's offensive is if the stereotype is simply not true for most and just a made up stigma used by anti people.

Yup. Respectable representation is not the same thing as empathetic representation.

It's as the saying goes "don't make a good [minority] character. Make a good character that happens to be [minority]"

exactly

Sadly bring LGBT is as deep as its goes

And my first thought is Trevor from Shameless when he was first introduced. He was so obviously just a vehicle to bring up trans and LGBTQA+ topics the show hadn't touched before. It was painful.

I feel that, I'm not black, but I have a lot of black characters that I'm afraid to write or tell people, even if I've talked about them with my black friends and they don't see anything wrong, I'm still insecure. I didn't make them for representations per see, I just thought their design was better this way, with these colors, felt more "them" if you understand? Like any other character I've made. But they arent perfect snowflackes, which gaves me even more fear...representation x internet is scary

Something like that i think is something i worry about a bunch.. Although i dont write and only occasionally draw im often worried about hurting people even tho i know they wanna be treated as just.. people.. at least in most cases Like.. if i draw someone whos white and i mess up its just eh and i just suck but whenever i draw someone who looks average and white i always just feel bad and like i should try harder.. even tho theyre not drawn any worse than the others ..i think at least..

Honestly same and I'm a black woman, I feel weird writing black woman has anything other than soft, silly and girly cause I don't want to add to the strong aggressive black woman stereotype. But like black woman exist in a spectrum so I should show all of it.

It's kind of what happens to all minorities. Because people want to break away from stereotypes but people have personalities of all types that can align with said stereotypes. But in my mind the issue is with the people stereotyping to make their world view easier. It's a double edged sword I think all minorities face. To try and not be a stereotype but that still boxes you in just like the stereotype.

Same! While I'm a gay black man, it's the same feeling: I want to watch controversial stories too, not just the sad and/or overcoming kind of movies/series. Go crazy, you know?

That was the most awkward shit ever lmaoo

I scream-laughed at that dramatic “Thank you…” 🤣🤣🤣🤣

I'd rather be called a slur honestly it'd be less awkward.

Could have just said ‘thank you for telling me’. Sounds like a more normal response.

I think most (not transphobic) people would just react with "Oh, okay" or parents "we love you nonetheless". No need for thank you, for telling me your truth.

This makes so much sense!

That's such a great observation. Thanks for pointing that out, I learned something.

Nope, the problem is the term "diversity"! ‘Representation’ is a good synonym for that.

Had anyone else said this I’d just assume it was another boring bro talking about go woke go broke, but since it’s this queen… I can trust her.

I'm glad you mentioned IUrsula Le Guin I live near porland and had ocasion to meet her a few times. During one of her interviews she told how she decided to write about a topic when the critics mentioned how she couldn't do it.

@@miticaBEP07 truth is truth. People who hate the lgbtq community arent going to be giving constructive criticsm to improve their characters in media.

It's particularly interesting coming from ever as she wrote in order two of my favourites books ever and one that for how much I tried I only found a chore to go through, which It happens to be the one most explicit about its own topics after the first Earthsea novel. If only more people knew of her, I wouldn't have to suffer when people ask who she is

I'm trans writer too) But right now I am writing a story about lesbians, but planning a poem about trans man in the atmosphere of Russian folklore ('cause I'm Russian) :)

Probably because they are cis/het people writing for cis/het people.

Personally I think we need a mix of stories like that, some which focus on LGBTQIA+ characters discovering their identity/overcoming discrimination, and some which just have LGBTQIA+ characters and their gender/sexuality is never an issue or conflict. It can be reassuring in a way to see struggles you’ve faced shown in fiction because it reminds you you’re not alone, but it’s also nice to see characters who are just LGBTQIA+ and completely accepted for that, because it shows that’s a normal way to be and doesn’t always have to be some massive debate. It’s also relaxing escapism after discrimination in real life. But I absolutely agree with you when you say they’re often written to teach lessons rather than as real people.

I think its a sad reality that the vast majority of LGBTQ+ face discrimination in some way in their day to day lives, but there are already so many ways that media misrepresents the average human experience, that I think you can occasionally sacrifice full accuracy for the sake of a feel-good story. I feel like this process should just be more natural. There shouldnt be any like strict rules or anything for writing an LGBTQ+ character, it just gets annoying when we constantly see the same thing. What I'm saying is, we need a healthy mix of everything, rather than trying to dictate which stories can and cannot be told. Feel-good stories where everything works out for the main character have their place in media, but that can't be all we have. Stories about discrimination have their place, but that cant be everything either. There's always a certain balance that just works.

i dont blame them, theyre probably terrified of getting cancelled on twitter for not making all lgbt people look like angels all the time

I think the problem is cis/het writers don't realize how intersectional being LGBT+ is in actual LGBT+ people. They think, "A queer character's story has to be all about their queerness, otherwise people will question why they were written queer in the first place." That position then turns into a pulpit and the character becomes a martyr, not an actual person. When in reality, it is entirely possible to write a character whose life is undeniably affected by being queer, without their queerness being their main character arc. Right now, they can't seem to tell the difference between QUEER character and queer CHARACTER.

might i ask who that character was?

@@vivaciousarcanist3389 Croix Meridies from Little Witch Academia. She's actually my profile picture lol

@@taniahylian3799 thanks, i'll be sure to check it out

See, things like this are fine, but then you get those other people who think that EVERYONE has to be trans... 🤦‍♀️

​@@teutonicsniper2502 why not tho

I think this is way better than "small penis funny" :P

that's really good and cheesy in a good way

I've seen some people say this outcome "erases representation" when they've gone to find media marketed as mlm because accepting someone as whatever their identity happens to be makes the relationship not queer/truthful to the marketing, and I'm just confused. This is the most natural outcome I could imagine if you truly love someone and surely accepting people no matter their gender would make a better society? But I'd really love genuine representation like this that starts out with the audience being left in the dark and then as the relationship progresses, the audience is allowed to learn of the complexity of the relationship. Truly just the peak of pansexual media :)

For some reason this all feels so gross

That's a storyline I would watch, it's not a snooze fest

“Thank you for sharing your truth with me” absolutely destroyed me!

an utter hyena laugh at that.

A woman I used to work for actually said this to me. She misgendered me literally every time she spoke about me.

@@ciarancooper394 When someone says "your truth" they often mean it's not the truth to them.

“Thanks for trusting me” for douches.

@@telepathicmagicshop I totally get this. Being bi and in the ace community we exist too. We can be a lot of different things. Also, some of us have our it together. There is nothing wrong with sexual bi people, and like this video asserts they can be flawed, but I wish I had seen more non-closeted bi people who had it together.

@@telepathicmagicshop Being a disaster bisexual has nothing to do with being hypsersexualized. Settle down there bud.

@@telepathicmagicshop You’re allowed to feel things, but you’re being both overly dramatic and wrong 😌

@@fbaxter8551 for me disaster bi is me over thinking and I can't talk in general. especially to a pretty lady then I try another option to look away cuz eye contact is hard in general.but then on the tv is a shirtless man and u urself haven't had any type of sexual gratification in over 2 months so now u can feel ur face visablly getting brighter and ur face is just making all the emotions. Ur just trying to order food to go :/

I’m just always over thinking and I’m a competent disaster bi 😭

I love this analogy, thank you for the essay

Supergirl fans and lgbt supergirl fans from what I’ve seen in the fandom love and adore nia so I wouldn’t call her boring she’s a messy and complex and well developed character

@@madnessarcade7447 I was more talking about some types of representation in general, not her. She seems like amazing representation. I've also never watched the Supergirl TV show.

Facts, man...

It’s ok. It’s true.

We also need to stop deleting hot female characters from cartoons like Miss Bellum or Hello Nurse

Exactly. Characters that aren't seen as minorities are allowed to just be good and interesting characters, whereas women (less so than in the past, thankfully), queer people, and POC have to be "strong role models" and "good representation". The problem really is just one of scale. Like, Catradora has some aspects that are less than perfectly healthy, but no one called that bad lesbian representation because we also had Spinnerella and Netossa and Scorpia and Perfuma being uncontroversially perfect.

yeah, it feels like a stepping stone the same way "magical negroes" were a stepping stone to more honest, three dimensional and complex representation of people of color, resulting from a well meaning (or at the very least, trying toi cash in on diversity) but still insular and white dominated industry. First you erase or demonize, then you go for squeaky clean but empty and dishonest representation, and then you manage to get three dimensional representation when the represented group gets more power in the industry, and when enough people who are part of these groups get enough experience around these people to write them as something else than cardboard cutouts.

@@maximeteppe7627 This is it. The squeaky clean image naturally comes first after years of erasure and demonization. While yes, it's still dishonest and empty, think about what the backlash would be like if that step was skipped, before the represented group had gotten the power to write themselves.

But isn't the whole point of that discussion that the "strong female character" trope isn't good representation? It's inaccurate and idealised and comes across as being a mary sue every single time because the idea is to create the perfect woman that defies all stereotypes and is "just as good as a man" to show men that girls can too, instead of being written as a relatable and interesting 3 dimensional character with depth and complexity meant so that real women can feel seen and understood. Representation can only be good if it's intended audience is the group it's representing, I've only just started the video so I'm not sure if she addresses this or not but it isn't even really representation if it's a carefully constructed propaganda piece (often created by a person who is not of the minority group) that is intended to give a certain impression of the minority group, that's just propaganda, nothing wrong with that I guess since public opinion has to be affected somehow but representation has to exist authentically without any agenda or its not actually representative of anything.

This comment is gold! Didn't know about the no iPhones for villains bit, that's a mindfuck

Bruh I don't think I've ever seen a "genius gay" and it's a sin.

This is very off topic, and absolutely NOT a jab at you OP at all, but the "Android bad, iPhone good" movie theory is so insane to me. I get that it usually has to do with branding and all that, and not wanting a bad, awful character to be associated with your product, but at the same time...It lowkey just screams classism lol.

@@toomessy I mean it's giving me when HP Lovecraft made it so anyone with an accent was evil. Just because the authors intended it doesn't mean it's morally right. Therefore you're right, it is classist.

@@dontburstmybubble686 i mean, Jim Moriarty in Sherlock was that basically. He was never officially confirmed gay but they queercoded the shit out of him.

Of course, autistic people are all different, and some don't have those symptoms, but I hate the fact that's all "good" representation is.

As an autistic person,you’re so real for this and I agree

Sara Eriksson from Young Royals will always be one of, if not, my favourite autistic characters in media. She’s autistic adhd, played by Frida Argento - an autistic adhd actress (fair warning though, they use the term Asperger’s, my guess as to why would be that they just don’t know that it’s a problematic term). 　She’s not morally perfect, but none of the characters are. Also, she’s genuinely one of the most authentic feeling autistic characters I’ve seen.

I wonder if it was in-response to how Sheldon Cooper is as a character from The Big Bang Theory

You should do it then

Go for it you amazing b@stard

As if we have not had enough of that shit

​@@vampiszoonis9691 vine boom vine boom vine boom vine boom vine boom vine boom vine boom vine boom vine boom vine boom vine boom vine boom vine boom vine boom vine boom vine boom vine boom vine boom vine boom vine boom

Do it then monarch!

Your pfp gives that away!

Tbf isn’t that just regular way every basic straight white male character is written? “He’s an asshole, but he can learn ya’ll🎊” they even get a complimentary trophy gf upon reaching what the male writers think selfactualisation is.

I totally agree, messy relationships are the best (in fiction). If they're too perfect it's just not interesting. The Stamets/Culber and Adira/Gray couples from Star Trek are great examples of this. "Oh so you're saying there is no drama in this *drama* programme? Yeah I'll go out and buy the Blu-Rays of that, absolutely for sure"

I agree. Mickey and Ian from Shameless have a sort of toxic relationship, messy at times but it is super entertaining. Furthermore Mickey is an amazing character because while he is very aware what he likes sexually, for a long time he denies it and hides the emotional side of it. There are some scenes that are hard to watch but it's never boring.

I only recently watched through Hannibal AFTER learning that not only is the relationship cannon, but messy and destructive and INTERESTING. And I’m obsessed.

also RTD does not give a *shit* about any internet reaction to his characters. "storytelling is not a democracy." so many people forget that. Twitter activists should not be doing activism for fiction, full stop.

There should be more gay villains in general

@@maldon3659 absolutely. fuck problematising disney villains. embrace the camp

RTD just writes people as people, and makes sure there’s people of all sorts in his stories

God, Freddie was awful. Gorgeous but so awful lol

Watch the She-Ra reboot and thank me later. It has exactly what you asked for :3

I'd personally say it can be way more educational for kids to see lgbt characters just naturally incorporated into their shows instead of having long expositional stuff that kids won't be bothered to listen to anyway ... "show don't tell" kinda stuff. I personally am sick of kids TV not taking children serious as human beings and dumbing down their shows more and more ... kids are smart. Give them age appropriate interesting characters who happen to be lgbt ... I mean you can put the purely educational suff into actual education focused kids series, that much is true, as those are usually watched by kids interesting in educational content, but for the entertainment-focused kids shows ... just give them proper characters, some of which happen to be lgbt ... and let the children see that those lgbt characters are just as much part of the world as all the others.

It often is though. Like, Love Simon is a movie for young teens. Of course adults might find it boring. I personally find it a bit tedious that people who are clearly not the target audience keep complaining online about how it was not edgy or dark or sexual enough. Way to miss the point.

​@@grundgutigertv6170 Read at risk of spoilers: It's crazy that She-Ra, what is ostensibly a "Kids' Show", has far messier characters than most of queer representation currently. Catra is a complete mess and does awful things including co-leading and perpetuating a war, is emotionally manipulative, and overall unable to deal with her emotions and romantic feelings for most of the show's length. It's honestly why I like it so much compared to most queer rep at the moment, because while the show's queer rep in general is soft and wholesome, Catra as a person is a fucking disaster with serious emotional trauma who is repeatedly self-destructive, in large part because of trouble processing and understanding her feelings around Adora.

@@treeaboo Dont worry, Ive watched the series 5 times over by now, so no spoilers for me :p Catra is my fav character because she is so relatable. Its really hard to become a decent person when your parent mistreats you over and over again. By giving her an emotional support animal in melog, they did the best thing to help her grow. Melog reflects catras feelings without judgment, can talk to her in private about her problems (no one else can understand it) and can protect her by making her literally go invisible and hide. Something that can help you process greatly. Melog is also very affectionate and can give her the love she needs to feel better without overdoing it. Whoever wrote this arc was very wise.

boring queer people exist as well but why would a writer write a story about boring people? doesn't make sense to me, who also writes stories.

@@Terik17 Iunno, you ever see that movie Darkstar? It's entirely about a bunch of guys in an incredible, far out situation and them just being utterly, intensely bored by it, and it manages to be really, really funny, there's a lot of comedy to be found in mundane day to day things, small personal dramas can be compelling, and i don't think i really buy the idea of a truly "boring" character, people have a rich inner life, i think the mark of good character writing expresses a fictional inner life to the audience in a way that's engaging.

​@@Terik17Because some people's lives are still interesting even without any sort of drama.

@@tanyanikolaevagizdova6571are they? if it's a mystery, it is still drama. if it is a guy going to work like everyday and nothing out of the ordinary happens, there's no much story, you know? it doesn't pique people's interest

lol exactly, I have a genetic disorder, blah blah, long story short, I'm very wobbly and often sway a bit, careen into bookshelves, etc, and if you didn't know better you might think I was a bit drunk, so my dad calls me Captain Jack (ala Pirates of the Caribbean "Where's the Rum gone?") Cuz he's a dick lol (I say with love and affection). My family's full of deeply loving, witty, sarcastic assholes, It's practically our love language. He's got his own Frankenstein health issues going on as well so he knows the score. If you say you have a headache he'll offer to punch you in the leg to take your mind off it lol. If someone wrote the way we talked to each other without doing a big qualifying speech beforehand they'd be fired soooo fast.

Exactly. My arm disabilities have given me nothing but hell. My whole body hurts from chronic pain and my knee eventually went bad. Between my arms and knee, I walk and act like a little-armed T-Rex. It actually helps to joke about my struggles and pain and the hell I've gone through over time. My parents, family, husband, friends, and even co-workers all joke with me and gift me T-Rex stuff and tag me online in stuff about T-Rexes. People get offended on my part and the part of other disabled people, saying it's rude and disrespectful. Yet they don't understand it. A.) I am allowed to make fun of my own pain and struggles because they are mine. B.) I literally acknowledged the jokes with my friends and family members and accept it as fine, so I don't need people to defend me because I'm not offended and it isn't poking fun at anyone but me.

Here in the latam side of the internet, making those kinds of jokes is kind of the norm, but that's partly beacuse all of us have experienced discrimination before and we learned to laugh at it. We learned to laugh at stereotypes and dark humor beacuse if the context and tone is right then we know the person telling the joke is not serious (something i feel many others on the internet cant tell). We never exclude anybody when making fun of stuff, including ourselves, heck i learned to laugh and make fun of my own aspergers, but that's beacuse it helps me deal with the struggles that come with it and helps me connect with other autists who also know how to laugh at themselves. We latinos live in a miserable place full of corruption and violence, but why be gloomy when you can just grab a beer and make fun of everything with your friends, beacuse we know life is shit so may as well have some laughs and enjoy it.

My friend is a double amputee the amount of times I've have a hand or an arm prosthetic for saying hey can I have a hand. Even with my own issues I joke about it people would think my friends are bullying but it's just playful bantering

@@oldladytrexarms yea like my family often ties me to characters like the corpse bride or monster high characters because of my eds (my joints are always slipping in and out). Other people would find being compared to monsters because of your disability degrading but I don’t.

The other difficulty with transfolk and other minorities getting good representation is that their inclusion into ensemble stories can sometimes turn into a smurfette problem. If everyone else has a defining characteristic and is cis, then the trans character's defining characteristic is by default being trans (until otherwise supplanted by something more developed by the story). Bad writers will not move beyond the differences and ignore characters' commonalities that can lead to interesting relationships and conflicts.

I feel like its not even about politically correct at times. Its just the shallowness. Its like he old adage in story telling "show don't tell". They want "good rep" so they they check to make sure they hit those talking points and reflect back some things they've been told instead of actually working positive representation into the story and make it an part of everything instead of something added in for show.

Well said!

@@thezpn Aaaagh, smurfette made me SO mad as a kid! Like, either I can have a personality & be something cool, or I can be a girl?? And I know I was younger than 9, & I was a hugely sheltered kid- I doubt I'd even heard the word "feminism", but I could see the problem. Of course fiction has some influence, but I just don't buy the idea that people blindly copy it or believe it without ever questioning it or thinking about it.

Maybe Netflix & HBO and other networks are trying to appeal to younger audiences who are more politically correct by being more politically conscious? And by proxy they write unproblematic characters who while are inoffensive appear less real because most people are... pretty problematic

Considering she detransitioned it's hard to feel sorry for her lol

@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 what

@@nessie7306 Exactly what I said. Says a lot they detrans after some people were mean to them

​@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 you're absolutely horrible.

@@A.MNeverP.M Not as horrible as them lol

you should look up Hazbin Hotel. the character Angel Dust is a gay sex worker who had drug problems when he was alive (the whole show takes place in hell and all the characters are demons). the main character is a lesbian too. there's only one episode so far, it got picked up by A24 and will have a former premiere later this year, but me and my friends are optimistic

Have you been oppressed? Could you explain?

@@avivastudios2311 hush now little sealion.

there is pretty good representation in other media, like webcomics and fanfiction. i feel like I've watched plots where one person was outed but I'm struggling to remember where. I hate when there's a queer romance plot where one person is mad at the other for not coming out and they get pushy... that is not your place. if you respect your partner, then let them decide it for themselves. if it's too much for you, end the relationship. but then the show usually makes the outed character go "oh it's okay you did it, i guess it had to happen at some point" NO IT DIDN'T! I'd never speak to that person again... it's not safe or comfortable for everyone to come out, especially if you're a minor with limited control over your life... but I'm ranting...

Same

THIS.

@@liebling8560 thanks

watch she-ra !! :>

Just make a good villain, and oh they’re bi? Ok yeah carry on

On one hand I agree. On the other, there is a very vocal group of Puritan Types in the LGBTQ+ Community that still shit on other LGBTQ+ creators when the rep is't squeaky clean. I would LOVE if it were the be all end all solution. But its not. Not without those people changing their minds about how their fellows would depict those experiences.

@@nsullivan9096 Well yeah, every group has those types of Puritans. But the exceptional creations still shine through and are remembered as as being exceptional. We can't let those people hold us back forever.

While it's true that people living an experience can tap into things about it that people outside of it can't, marginalized creators also get representation "wrong" or tell poor stories around it. They just get a free pass because they belong to the group the story is about. Their identity prompts people to read their characters and world as more authentic by default. Boondocks was great but it was a very particular perspective and voice exploring things in a way that not all black people relate to or even enjoy, despite its sincerity and accuracy. And much of it would be called problematic if a white person had created it. This isn't the point of my reply but designating things as "stuff only members of your group can understand" can alienate members who actually don't understand either. It reminds of this twitter thread where a trans person was explaining why deadnaming is harmful. What stood out to me was all of the trans people who expressed not having the same negative relationship with their former name being attacked and ostracized for it. They were "othered" and shushed by their own community, by other trans people who despise being deadnamed, simply for not feeling the same way and embracing their past in a way the rest don't. Who gets to decide which of those experiences is more real and authentic to that community? Using the example in this video where Jules talks about wanting to stop taking hormones and trying to conquer femininity, I'm not trans, yet nothing about what she said was new or eye opening. They're thoughts someone transitioning could obviously have. And they parallel the same inner complexity we cis people have regarding outward expectations, the associations we make with our bodies and selfhood, and our labels, and the boxes we fight to get out of or into and how all of that can fluctuate. So I disagree that someone who isn't trans couldn't write that. Someone who doesn't think about or know how to express experiences outside of their own couldn't write that, and that can just as easily be another trans person. I just stumbled across this so I don't know the channel owner's name, I'll just use VB. Even they acknowledged that there are trans people who don't want to see the same kind of representation they do. That alone should be a reminder that someone belonging to the same group doesn't guarantee they're going to put out content you connect with or like. But I do agree that increased representation behind the scenes will help. It gives media access to a broader, more diverse range of experiences to draw from, but it also addresses a problem I touched on at the start. People outside of marginalized groups know they're being held to stricter standards and are under more scrutiny. They have to tiptoe around how they depict others because the culture already decided they don't have the right to tell those stories, that they can't understand them, and that anything they get "wrong" is because of their privilege or bigotry. They're seen as bad people rather than bad storytellers. And they can't EXCLUDE other groups from their stories for fear of getting it wrong because that would make them the villain too. So they balance it. They include others for the sake of diversity while taking the safest, blandest, least complex, most surface level approach to those characters/stories that they can to avoid moral outrage. Having more people who belong to those groups telling the stories instead doesn't mean they'll get it right more often, but it does mean we'll see more risks being taken and less choices being made out of fear of social backlash. Because the progressive minds who decry poor representation of marginalized groups aren't as likely to criticize creators who belong to those groups. That sense of agency alone will inject some life into the corpse that is today's more sanitized entertainment. Beyond that, I think the solution to boring representation (and media period) is learning how to tell entertaining, quality stories that feel authentic when they need to, with engaging characters people feel invested in, no matter who or what you are or they are. Many creators from underrepresented groups approach stories as a form of wish fulfillment. They don't focus on the core principles of writing. They just toss together all the things they personally want to see. There's a reason most fan fiction is awful from a technical/creative standpoint yet still insanely popular. People are getting their specific fix from it, and that fix isn't a good story. It's seeing this person with that person, or this type of person in this kind of relationship etc. That's fine for fanfic. It shouldn't be what drives storytelling as an industry. Trying to depict people a certain way simply because they belong to X group drops the ball more often than not. No group is all good or bad. Monoliths don't exist and every depiction is valid because every type of person you can think of is real. Just pick who you want to focus on and do it well. - Sincerely, TLDR

@@tenchfroast That seems like an exaggeration.

@@tenchfroast are you french toast?

i don't know if i'm a bad enby for this, but if i, with all of my contradicting presentations and gender roles and gendered attitudes of all kinds, if i managed to get a straight guy/girl who genuinelly are that label and don't feel like changing it, i would literally feel so powerful lmao it's not like i'm gonna change. they already know who and what i am, and they got an attraction for me anyway and they have to deal with me being me all the time. they might think they see me as a man or a woman, but i definitely won't fit perfectly well anyway and it's not ignorable jdbsjsba i would feel like i'm fucking with their little boxes in the best possible way. i do acknowledge that i am saying this as a non binary who likes to be truly androgynous and that, for a lot of people, how other people see them is, if not the whole point, a massive point about gender, but for me, nothing about how people are attracted to me or how they see me would deny what i am. i also realize that i get a kick out of being people's "exceptions", like back when i identified with my assigned at birth gender, but hooked up with a guy who wasn't attracted to it. and that people mostly... might not like that jsbsjsbsjsb

@@l.josino i think they made a video about this called "everyone is attracted to nonbinary people"

@@quiqui6424 oh god JBSJSBSHA i watched it (and some other videos of this channel regarding genderqueer/nonbinary) and i feel SO SEEN

i appreciated it too as a nonbinary person! a lot of the queer representation in sex education felt really well written and how the writers didn't just focus on only the negative or the positive - an even mix of both

Cal❤❤

I'm not sure what letter of the lgbtq he is but Mr X from Amphibia has to be one of my favourite villains now. Idk, maybe it's the bald head with the lip stick plus the voice 😂

i've seen people criticise she-ra cause double trouble (nonbinary shapeshifter, awesome morally grey character) shapeshifted into a young fairy girl to get into the rebellion and spy for the bad side and some people think that's pushing a harmful stereotype but i actually think it was a really smart plotline and DT is such a likable character, and she-ra's creator is non-binary themselves so i really don't get why there's an issue

@TP well, i actually have seen both those shows, but anyway my point wasn't that the evil, villainous lgbtq trope doesn't exist or isn't a problem -- in fact, i think it's the opposite. rather, that we shouldn't automatically condemn every representation of ourselves that isn't completely spotless and appeasing. gay/trans people should be allowed to be protagonists, heroes, love interests, and yes, antagonists/villains (so long as their villainy isn't BECAUSE they're lgbtq). my problem comes from the boring, one dimensional, included-just-so-the-gays-will-give-us-money type characters that writers only put in to get representation brownie points, but ALSO the antiquated demonization/condemnation of querness in media. both are bad representation, just in different ways. i want characters i can see myself in, ones that i relate to and understand, not characters that exist only to be waved around by writers and directors for profit and praise. anyway, sorry for the ultra long paragraph, i have a lot of thoughts on this apparently 😅

I think youre missing the point. I think when people write normal gays, trans, blacks, they arent doing it for that sake, and i think one of the problem with the communities is that you guys are taking it the wrong way in that sense of “not wanting _______ to look bad.” It has more to do with not stereotyping. Not every minority has this “set” persona or stereotype they are supposed to be, us minorities are more than capable of being normal people. Like for instance; I’m black. My blackness will not go away if i’m quiet, reserved and smart. A gay man will not be any less gay if he isnt talking funny or isnt wearing a pink sweater and being b*tchi.

@@leaf111 my criticisms for double trouble are because theyre a sex fluid enby character. im just tired of enby characters being either shapeshifters or somehow very different than human or human adjacent characters. it makes enby people seem like theyre fundamentally different than binary people, and i dislike that. double trouble is a good character, but meh enby rep

AND we want to be able to wonder who will be on the list, not what place they’ll be

agreed

i will not accept this broccoli slander!

@@phosphenevision broccoli is disgusting lol

Hey! Cold broccoli is delicious!

Yes! I'm SO OVER the modern tendency to demand that fiction be morally perfect- like, the fact that it's fiction makes no difference, it's as if you've done that awful thing irl, or you're condoning it. As if fiction has to be a fable or parable, to teach you moral lessons & how to live a good life, cos apparently people will blindly copy it. Even if you look beyond entertainment, the psychological functions of stories are far more numerous & complex than that.

THIS is funny!

Right, or it goes too far in the other direction and the character just "happens to be" queer but it apparently had zero impact on the character in any way and especially removes everything that might be uncomfortable to the audience.

The second bit would require a complete rework of FCC policy.

Yeah!!!!!!!!!!

Helluva boss

@@zabbee2323 that sounds like a good idea I'm making a comic as well.

@@bannedmann4469 wtf? LGBT exists on the same spectrum as straightness, not to mention sexuality is a spectrum. They are as common, they're not some shut away minority.

Look I don't know who you are, but I don't appreciate being called out so bluntly and this late at night

@@TheCountOrlok Ha, same!

I was just trying to enjoy my evening when BAM This hits me like a truck

Wow you're really just gonna call us out like that with facts and receipts, huh? Rude.

yeah AND?!

I'm hoping they delve into their story further is season 4, Cal needs to be fleshed out for sure! I think the actor can pull it off if given a good script with more character backstory meat to work with

YES! I've had this dysphoria too. Like...my issue is when people who are monosexual and would insist that they are monosexual even though I'm not the same gender as themselves. It hurts, and though their identity matters. So does mine. And I just need to learn to set boundaries and I've always had an issue doing so

This...! I came out as nonbinary a year ago, and my partner and I have been together for many years. He says he's straight and that was fine until ist wasn't. It's hard getting intimate with him because I know how he sees me... I've told him I'm not his girlfriend anymore, but his partner, yet he still introduces me as former... Says he thinks it's weird. Thanks for your comment, it's the first thing I've read that shows that I'm not the only one with those problems :(

This!!

Fellow enby here, I also really related to Cal. The way I read it was that they didn't want to be in a romantic relationship who still saw them as a girl, and I thought that was one fucking amazing boundary. I would be interested to see if their relationship gets revisited in later seasons - I'd love to see Jackson grow and learn more about nb folks and complicate his sexual identity because of his feelings towards Cal, but I'd be just as happy if that's where that arc ends.

One of whom comes out with a kickass song.

@@SirThinks2Much I'm g g g g getting bi :D

Valencia, Darryl, and.....?

@@Niniminns that would be the new Bi Anthem if Bicycle by Queen didn't exist

@@jacobd1984 Maya (who often gets forgotten because she's a supporting rather than main character like the others - she comes out too right after Darryl's song). Also the MC Rebecca is bi-coded and defines herself as a "Kinsey 1.8" (in her words).

I write gay fantasy also, but usually in the setting of an established property.

Same. I'm non binary in the way that I don't care about gender. If someone sees/refers to me as a man that's equally as wrong or right or neutral as seeing me as a woman.

YES! I am transmasc but use He/They! But i remember somewhere a person saying that a friend of them was "pretending" to be non-binary for attention because they were using They/Them! And i honestly hate when people think "Gender = Pronouns" When its def not true!

@@oggyboggy8692 me too, it took a while to realize that pronouns are conversational shorthand and not prescriptive titles. I can just be myself and let others assume whatever they're going to assume as long as you don't call me a "man" eww I hate that word 😠

yes exactly. many people think that identifying at non-binary and using them/them pronouns go hand-in-hand

im not enby but from the bi area code where i come from, we get this similar shit when we're in hetero relationships (or even gay relationships) where people force an idea of what someone should be like, and not just let people exist as they do i see this often with enby people often when they dont use neo pronouns or They/Them. Especially so when I see Enby people getting accused (and damn near interrogated) of being "fake Non Binary" because they use She/Her or He/Him, ESPECIALLY when theyre presenting as their heteronormative pronouns. Like, just let people live how they want to live. If someone looks like a man and uses he/him but he says he's Non Binary, then he's Non Binary. Idk why people have such a difficult time.

LMAO this is me rn. She did make several good points in this video and the relationship between those 2 definitely felt odd.

The worst part is that her actress, Hunter Schafer, was in charge of writing most of that episode. That’s why the authenticity of the trans experience comes through. Meanwhile in the first and second season, she had no voice. Understandable considering she’s merely an actress for the show, but Levinson was the only person fully in charge of the script. And yeah… it suffered. At the very least, she should’ve been consulted more. She’s so fuckin talented.

i do like Jules as a character but I feel like she got a different treatment from the other "main" characters. i feel like we're viewing Jules as the manic pixie dream girl romance from Rue's perspective... and that's why it didn't make sense to watch her leave on that train and disappear for a while, because we never truly got her perspective on things.

You wanna know what twists the knife even more? A couple days ago, one of the people who spearheaded the harassment campaign against her startedd a kickstarter for a fiction anthology about trans people who pilot militarised mechs. Ruin Fall's life, and then steal her iddea.

@@WarMomPT that’s horrible!

@@WarMomPT WTF. That's disgusting. I honestly want to know how to connect with Isabelle to support her. Like to donate or just send hugs or something.

@@WarMomPT I hope that stolen anthology crashes and burns harder than the Arkh Project and the Real Robot and Super Robot metafandoms eat that harrasser alive.

That and Jules' special episode that was co-written by Hunter Schaefer, who's trans irl and plays jules used her own experience as a young trans women to shape her character into this fleshed out, complicated and messy person who's also beautiful and good. That episode is by far one of the best episodes of the show. It not only shows that jules isn't a villain but also that rue is unreliable and can be hard to be around sometimes.

Have to admit I just read a fantasy novel about an ork woman retiring from looting and starting a cafe with a succubus and fall in love. Their backgrounds are a bigger issue than their genders and it was very soothing to read. Loved it (more queerness in fantasy!).

Both approaches are perfectly valid and it matters what you anybody else is comfortable with, that's why it's so important to communicate with the group what everybody wants out the adventure, what's comfortable and what are no goes. Andbif there are topics with different approaches then doen't play as this group (because in the longrun it almost always becomes and grows into an even bigger problem) or there have to be compromises. Finding a pen and paper group ,even if it's all good friends, can be hard. 🙁

My friend and I who are both nonbinary watched Our Flag Means Death and as the show went on and it became clear that Jim was non binary we both literally screamed with excitement.

Yeah, the representation in ofmd makes me so, so, happy

it's really weird talking about art by queer people online and then you get the occasional reminder that about half the people you're talking to use literal children's cartoons as their yardstick. Which is fine, until you get to things like, well, the fact these people eagerly joined in on the hate brigade against Isabel Fall.

This. And to add, a significant section of said younger queer community seems to overlap with fandom. So, a lot of these young queers may have grown up getting their rep pretty much entirely from fanfiction, which, for the most part, is self-indulgent wish-fulfillment by design.

As a high-schooler, I 100% but I also think it's just that in our modern day, there's a lot of alienation to what makes a good story. Young people have to live sorting through live action remakes and Riverdales to actually find a good story, if they even know how to find one. Maybe it's not that big of deal as it seems to be, but thinking about how the most loved movies among people I know are one that were made at least 10 years ago...seems to say a lot

I really like that first point. As to the second, I think it's less that everyone on the internet is a teenager, and more that teenagers tend to be very vocal in online queer spaces, so adults don't feel comfortable hanging around those spaces. At least, in my experience of being a teen on the internet and then growing up a bit, I've found that I and the people I used to interact with left those spaces once we matured past the "just finding our identity and trying to define ourselves against the normative world" phase of queerness. Which is tricky because that is a healthy stage of coming to terms with your identity, the same way that anger and denial are healthy stages of grief. It's ok for teens (and adults in the early stages of coming out, for that matter) to go through that stage, and it's important to have spaces where people can express that. You just can't get stuck there forever -- and the problem with the internet is that it becomes a space where people in that stage of accepting themselves dominate the conversation. Partly because they're more prone to be outspoken, since they're asserting their identity for the first time, and partly because it's good fodder for The Algorithm. Plus it often presents simplistic explanations for well meaning allies to understand and get behind. But it leaves people who are at other stages in their journey feeling alienated, it leaves the discourse in a perpetually adolescent state, and I worry that it keeps some people stuck in that stage of acceptance, rather than giving them space to move on.

@@one_smol_duck nice explanation! I can totally see this... Thanks for reminding me that this acceptance phase is normal and healthy. I mostly just blinded to hate these loud people that just really have to make LGBTQ identity as their sole personality. But remembering it, I was like that too back then in accepting my queerness. I'm just not loud on the net, I express it in personal diary, but I was like them too.

I feel like Sex Education wasted the asexual character for a very special episode. We learned 2 things about her (she's asexual and a theatre kid) then she was never heard of again. She could have been a recurring side character in the Jackson school play subplot or one of the main characters could have been asexual but Florence was only there for a teachable moment. Cal suffered a similar fate and was pretty boring compared to the less well adjusted characters but at least Cal appeared in multiple eps this season as a constant presence.

I think Sex Education has roped themselves into representing and educating around everything. They started off with a good premise that made room for that, but now I wish they’d focus on telling good stories with their many diverse characters- mostly they hit the mark, but sometimes you’re right it’s so bland.

I wish they at least had some objectum representation on the show.

Yeah, I suppose it would have been much more interesting to show the messy parts, like a romantic asexual trying to find a compatible partner, and making mistakes. At least half the show is about how sex and relationships are messy, so it's jarring wen good representation tm shows up without the drama to support it.

Rowan Ellis pointed it in a video that Otis could have been a great ace representation, is not the perfect definition of being asexual he would be more in the demisexual side of the spectrum but it would have been really interesting, also he has a character beside it, he has a lot of flaws and i love it

This is a great point. Streaming services that encourage binging shows (rather than slowing down and waiting for stories to unfold organically) have also contributed to it.

Oh I feel this so much. So many people, including authors, seem to think that a story should be, essentially, a single page bulleted list of the key events. I've received the writing advice that if your reader won't remember it (whatever it is) you simply shouldn't put it in the story at all, as though the average person memorizes every line of every book they read??

@@kaywho6477 I think there are multiple compounding causes to it and what you have said is certainly one. One cause I theorize is that memes have something to do with it; specifically ones built off of screenshots of shows or cropped images of a single line of writing or a single panel of a comic. Some of them are funny, and I'm not saying it's wrong to make them, but the ability to take a single piece of a narrative and share it out of context I suspect has something to do with it. I've definitely got parts of my stories that could be clipped out of context and used to make me look bad in some way, shape or form.

What you perceive as "realistic" is not actually realistic. It's merely what your biases tell you is possible.

same also i think straight people would learn best from media about queer people actually for queer people

I feel like the movie was so much worse though

@@whatcanidooo oh it definitely was .. becky albertalli has better books tho w more diverse queer characters , not just the 1 cis gay man

THANK YOU God watched this film with my straight cis friends they loved it and thought it was revolutionary. I was so bored by seeing the same "I'm just like everyone else guys I'm normal but gay" storyline without any nuances of queer life just plastering rainbows everywhere and have one short male male kiss

Here's my thing with the book. First of all Simon has personality in it, and truly feels like a person. But more than that I really liked that we spent time with him and Blue once they finally meet in real life. I can't remember exactly just how many pages there are of them, interacting as a couple, but I just remembered being so happy that these gay teens were behaving like any other teen couple. They were just as horny and over flowing with cheesey-but-in-a-good-way romantic encounters as their straight counterparts. Also unless I'm remembering it wrong, his friends never ditch him once he's outed! That made me so goddam mad in the film. Are any of you watching Love Victor ? I watched the first season but then dropped it. Don't care that much for any of the characters in it, gay or straight.

This is hardly the best example of this but it’s fresh enough in my mind that I still want to talk about it-despite all the negative sides to how it happened, I was really happy when Castiel finally got to say he was in love with Dean. Yeah I know that people were upset that it was his last appearance, and certainly it sucks that it couldn’t have happened sooner, but the show portrayed the love Cas expressed as being a really positive, beautiful thing, and I felt it was genuinely nice representation. Your point about people dying constantly on Star Trek also really applies here-I don’t think it should be considered “bury your gays” if EVERYONE dies constantly on the show, and yeah it looks bad that Cas died directly after coming out, but if we’re being honest he NEVER would have felt comfortable telling Dean how he felt if he wasn’t about to say goodbye forever. Straight people are allowed to confess their feelings right before they die and it’s considered pretty natural, so lgbt characters should be allowed to as well. Anyway, one of the biggest reasons “bury your gays” is such a bad thing is that it implies that gay people are receiving some kind of punishment for their “terrible gayness”, and that wasn’t what happened. Castiel didn’t STAY dead, sure he didn’t come back on screen but the show explicitly stated that he was brought back to life and is actively helping GOD HIMSELF make decisions for the way the world should work. Cas didn’t get to be perfectly happy at first, but he was treated as a good and admirable person in every step of him coming out. He was portrayed as selfless and heroic when he sacrificed himself for the man he loved, and he was later rewarded for that when he was brought back to life. Yeah it stinks that we didn’t get to see him again after he came out, but I think it’s important to remember that having Cas come out as lgbt means that Cas has ALWAYS been lgbt. We can look back on over a decade of tv and see a really interesting lgbt character, and we can see a lot of things in his interactions with Dean as canon, when before they would have been considered simply speculation. There are frustrating things about the WAY this reveal happened, but in my opinion the ultimate results are pretty cool. I know it sucks to wait until the last second to have a character be lgbt, but we don’t know what was going on behind the scenes and given the amount of controversy around that episode, it’s genuinely possible that having Cas come out last minute was the only way the writers could have him come out. Anyway in the end, after all the dust has settled and the show can be looked at as one big, complete story, we now have a really nuanced lgbt character, who’s allowed to have complexities and make mistakes but ultimately is still shown in a positive light as an admirable and heroic person. His love for another man was portrayed as beautiful and selfless, and ultimately he received a sincere happily ever after in a show that’s typically overflowing with misery. It’s too bad that we never got to SEE him be happy, but we know that he is and really I still suspect they’ll film some kind of epilogue after COVID ends. But anyway like I said this isn’t the biggest example of what I was talking about, it’s just something I’ve wanted to rant about for a while. No one has to view it as good representation, but I really did like it and I wish that I was allowed to see the good in it without looking like a traitor or something. It was far from perfect but I still stand by the fact that there were some really good things about it, and if we react THIS negatively to any lgbt representation that isn’t perfect, we’ll probably never get to see anything better.

I know right? Like I get that some people have a different taste in media which is valid, but for people to say it’s homophobic because if a villain or a flawed character so happens to be lgbtq are the ones being homophobic themselves because 1. No one is perfect including lgbtq people and yes their are some queer people who did wrong but not every queer person is a criminal and 2. Everyone has a different personalities, tastes in fashion, interests, etc and it creates erasure because well no one is the same because you can still be a gay man and be a fem/soft boy just like a gay man that’s masc and the answer is simple theirs no right or wrong way to be gay Some people need to wake up

do u have any recommendations asking for me

@@toothfairy10133 There are very good ones over at Webtoon Canvas, but Suitor Armor, Stray Souls and Lady Kight are some of my favourites.

Go read feast for a king, it has lots of trans characters who are just allowed to, you know, be! And instead of making them into tokens the author wrote a cis character who's trans methaphor and loaded all the misery and shittyness onto him lol

heirs game and covenant are really good too!!

I was trying to picture the best way to tell a story I wanted to tell and this sounds like the perfect medium

Nice Bayonetta pfp!!! :)

im afab nonbinary. when im dressed masc people will read me as a guy and then do a double take when i speak cause i have a femme, childish voice. i switch between 50s housewife and teenage pub guy on a daily basis. that's *funny*, cisfolk are missing out

@@toothfairy10133 haha im masc non binary too and the amount of people that will call me son in work until i speak is amazing. Makes me laugh every time. They then fall over themselves apologising for calling me son. Its the funniest thing.

Exactly. As outsiders, we know he has nothing to loose, but when WE are in the closet we may not see it that way

@@erikperhs_ Cognitive distortions really do be like that haha

Yes omg! I can speak from my own experience as someone who waited for years to come out, even though I was ultimately accepted by everyone I told and knew I probably would be before coming out in the first place. That “probably” holds so many what-if scenarios, and for someone that struggles with anxiety and self-confidence, I had myself convinced that every worst case scenario could result even if it was unrealistic! A lot of my favorite stories have conflicts centering around internal rather than external conflicts, and I think that’s because themes of anxiety or personal hold-ups are much more relatable than the fear of a big-bad villain! It makes the characters feel so much more human, and it’s good way to prompt character growth from a writing perspective. I wish more television writers/producers would remember this more when writing these kinds of characters. (Sorry, that was a longer response than I expected, but it makes me mad when writers think the /only/ thing queer people need to overcome by coming out is homophobia. More inner conflict!! ☺️)

@@emilygappel Hi, could you give me recomendations, please? I love that kind of stories.

@@ali.ali4700 Unfortunately, those kinds of stories are really hard to come by, and even rarer if they include queer rep on top of all that. That’s why I wish writers would do it more often, they’re always so good! The best example I’ve seen comes from an anime called Yuri on Ice. The show doesn’t really have a villain, so a lot of the central conflict comes from the main character’s own anxieties and self confidence. (It’s also incredibly gay and very adorable if you want to check it out ☺️) Two other good ones I’ve seen are The Haunting of Bly Manor and She-Ra. Both have villains acting as the central conflict, but the queer relationships in these are built around a lot of trust issues and anxieties that help to build the characters a lot! Both have amazing stories, too, so I’d definitely recommend checking them out!

I'm so excited for Hazbin Hotel to drop this year, Angel has lived in my head rent free

@@Lo0serx3 samee

@@Lo0serx3 that’s happening this year? Do you know when?

​@@SorowFame Sometime this summer

@@snare_the_silly neat, thanks

Lol not all zoomers, 'good' representation doesn't have to be stale with no morality but when its messy it doesn't have to continuously plays into stereotypes...

It happens in cycles. A fun microcosm of it is the discussion around fanfic and what is permissable. Every time a new group of youngsters comes of age and joins in, the debate picks up steam again and you get a bunch of purity culture concerns over what people can write and calls for hosting sites to be boycotted for content they didn't even create as if policing fanfiction archives has ever resulted in good things. The same thing happens on a broader scale with mainstream media, it just has a longer cycle from what I can tell

I feel like artists need to stop feeling beholden to the whims of 13 year olds on twitch and Jezebel writers. Like, throughout history good art took a certain amount of courage. There used to be Tipper Gore's evangelical crowd, McCarthyism, the Hayes Code, blasphemy laws, and before that literal monarchy which followed feudalism. Today, we have maladjusted CHILDREN who misappropriate the language of social justice. As an artist, youre never going to please EVERYONE. And if you do, youre probably not expressing anything.

This obsession with good moral rep isn't just a symptom of Gen Z, but I think it stems from the fact that lgbtq rep has been so atrocious in the past that many writers now fear writing them in complex ways. Writers do the same thing with female characters, by wanting them to be strong and not giving them any other personality traits. It's not really that hard to understand, I'm not saying this obsession is right, but I can understand wanting good rep when historically it's been extremely offensive and stereotypical.

@@dylankennedy4539 I def agree, but those children will really make your life hell if they want to tho

As a young, closeted aromantic/trans person, I agree

Oh if you're young don't worry too much about it. (i worried way too much when i was younger - i fell in love for the first time at the age of 18. I wish someone would've told me that (romantic) love isn't everything, the love that matters the most is self-love)

@@carina-nonbinary thanks, this is really nice! I think people can live fulfilled lives without romantic love but I really like the idea of getting married and that, so this is nice to hear

@@myyoutubeaccount1493 same when i was a kid all my friends had crushes and stuff but i didnt some people just.. realize attractions later than others.(a lot of my friends also said they had crushes but they didnt) anyways dont worry youll get older and figure it out

@@deli5194 thanks!

^^^^^

So I'm not part of the LGBT community, but l kind of agree with you,and I may add that good and complex characters who are lgbt can captivate audiences even outside your community. On the "trans women can be lesbians" I found that out from a mobile game called "one night,hot springs" whose protagonist is a trans woman who is revealed to be in love with her best friend; it's really cool I recommend it.

@@dDoodle788 That is a good game! I noticed that it and its sequels are getting a port onto the Switch as well, which is really cool to see.

Have you watched Sense8? I saw a lot of people discovering "lesbian trans women" through that show

i think as long as you dont write them as negative stereotypes or like one dimensional/their only personality trait is being gay, or something like that then its fine. also you could totally ask your lgbt friends if they think its ok. it might feel like an awkward question but its good to get a second opinion

​@@lilttigerthis ^ There's nothing with portraying A stereotype but don't turn the character into a stereotype. Then again gay men lean into stereotypes in a way trans women typically don't

wait, how?/gen from a bi girl

Our Flag Means Death is so good partially because it fully embraces that IRL pirates were messy, violent people who definitely killed a ton, and yet it shows them as still being capable of kindness and love despite that and I love it. It would have been so easy for the "joke" to be that it's a fluffy romcom where pirates are misunderstood pacifists against a bunch of evil oppressors, but the show so seamlessly acknowledges that both of its main characters are murderers with violent edges that easily crack through, and it uses that to build the queer themes up as the characters struggle to accept that they are worthy of being loved or worthy of living the lives they freely choose.

@@RariettyC yes!!

Depends on your perception of those relationship, or whether it was based on addiction and/or consummerism, in societal grooming of c(r)apitalism and if your not used to healthy relationships, outside of hypers*xuality and/or overf*tishization, if not also ""dubious" "consent"", as a result let alone with intoxicants, in tow?

*s

​@@TheSapphireLeo why would you ever assume from my comment that my relationships were unhealthy or even hypersexualized? and that they contained dubious consent? really weird. that says more about you than me.

This "everyone is accepting" is dangerous as its unrealistic and a young person coming out who doesn't receive acceptance from everyone maybe even more trauma inducing. And some allies and even other LGBT can be passive aggressive and hostile to a member for amy reason.

The Prom isn’t an original Murphy movie, it’s based off a play. Maybe the play had this issue? Can anyone who’s seen it confirm?

Yes! I think this is why Glee, The Fosters, recently Everything's Gonna Be Okay, even Faking It are all so much more enjoyable and authentic seeming shows when it comes to just... Having a bunch of LGBTQ+ characters in each show, having a variety of rep, Everything's Gonna Be Okay explicitly showing a gay character Alex's entire friend group is queer in various ways. There's something so much more authentic in some of the really flawed rep... But also I did genuinely adore Love, Simon and even more i love the spin-off Love, Victor, especially season 2 of it... I'm a gray-panromantic asexual and aros still have zero rep on tv and asexuals still are rare and when they're there they're minor side characters and never main characters too. I want so much more from rep... I know so many people do.

@@VioletEmerald FWIW, making your own representation is also valuable. If you identify an empty niche, filling it or helping to fill it will benefit everyone. It sure as hell won't be the cishet allosexuals who will make any good characters that make your heart sing, so *if* you are able to contribute and want to, it is awesome. I do want to emphasize that you don't have to be an active content creator/contributor if you don't have the energy or time or will, just that if you would want to be and manage to then that is kickass (as someone with a lifelong depression and ADHD, I am acutely aware of how easily life gets in the way of even stuff one really wants to do... Sometimes one doesn't even have the spoons for anything beyond immediate survival, and that is ok).

Exactly what I thought about! That scene made me feel really validated

100% this! I think some of verily's critiques on the storytelling with Cal are reasonable, like the lesson on binding. But at the same time I saw a TON myself in Cal's storyline. As an enby I've been in relationships with 2 cis straight men. I had a really strong sense that the first guy I dated only saw me as a girl, and the second guy after asking him explicitly told me he saw me as a girl. It's not like I haven't experienced these issues with queer people, but the gap in understanding and the need for me to be the educator for cis straight people was just too great. So one of the biggest takeaways I got from my relationships was to never again date people who consider themselves cis and straight

Well, you can't be sexually attracted to gender identity, not really. If you want to have sex with a person, your desire is mostly based on certain characteristics of that person related to their sex and sex is 99,99% binary, so what Jackson felt was pretty normal for his sexuality, and Cal couldn't accept that. Jackson was pretty open with the idea of having relationship with Cal, but if you can't even comfortably call someone beautiful because it's a "gendered word" how the hell it's supposed to work?

@@GiltleyRage no no no

​@@smallnotesbydina7091 Pls elaborate.

They could even play it up like the everyone-gets-my-name-wrong joke. Instant running gag!

@@charliekahn4205 or the "hmmm that's kinda fruity" to everyone who is attracted to nonbinary people because I have done that due to get mostly cis straight men off my ass as an enby myself.

I really do need to finish that series. The first series was great.

@@cmmosher8035 first season is the weakest imo (still good, but the plot and characters get way more developed from season 2 on) really recommend you continue :)

@@eiliscantsleep i switched phones earlier this year and for some reason not all of my podcast subs switched over and broke up my binging. Its a promising thing to know that the show has an ending after getting frustrated with shows like the Black Tape

@@cmmosher8035 oof that's fustrating. If it helps, tma always had a 5 season arc planned from the get go, and imo pulled it off really well. I binged it in a couple of months in the run up to halloween, and I can honestly say it had a super satisfying ending Also I get what u mean about podcasts that just don't end (or lose it after a couple of seasons) I might skip that then. If you have any reps for a good horror podcast I'm all ears btw

Agree!! And the fact that because most of the cast was LGBT, we also got a lot of flavors of morality. There’s no “good” and “bad”? Just varying shades of gray.

eh not really philosophy tube is boring for example

@@donnieraczynski572 the humor is fairly dry and British, and the topics are often largely serious. It's humor that's rarer and not as likely to land with as many, especially in the US, but I personally still love it when it's there

@@donnieraczynski572 I don't think the humor is really the point there

trans ppl will literally say shit like "brb gonna go mod my tits" and the rest of the trans ppl in the area lose their goddamn minds while the cis ppl are like "....o.0 is that allowed?....." or trans ppl will go "if you don't start behaving i'ma make your pronouns was/were bitch" to other trans ppl and thats just like a Tuesday night for us lol. There is so much comedy available for trans ppl/about trans ppl that is neutral or positive instead of transphobic/transmisogynistic etc, it kills me that the current mainstream situation is "transphobia or EXTREMELY confused cis ppl" :P

@@doctorwholover1012 exactlyyyyyy my trans friends are like the funniest people i know (and i consider myself to be moderately funny on occasion as well) like we have so many puns and inside jokes that only other trans people understand and find funny its so sick

That show was cancelled too soon. Still mad about it.

I feel like that show was such a good stepping stone for better representation ! The characters were so interesting. I’m so sad it got cancelled

I did a quick Google and as far as I can see no UK broadcaster picked this up and we don't have HBO max in the UK. Most HBO shows get picked up by Sky and so are available to stream on Now TV (as this is owned by Sky) but this doesn't seem to be one of them.

I feel like the only way to have it both ways is to have more than one trans character in the show to cover both bases

Wonderfully put. I feel exactly the same.

Catra from She-Ra Princeseses Of Power is a good example of a gay villain until they turn her into a hero in season 5

@maldon3659 Too bad Catra’s redemption arc was terribly written so her becoming a “hero” felt unearned. I’d say a better example is Sasha Waybright from Amphibia, who is a bisexual villain who becomes a hero in season after having an actually well written redemption arc.