I keep reading comments that are something along the lines of “aren’t you gatekeeping?” And the answer to that is NO! I am absolutely not. Think of it like this: a metal head is someone who is passionate about metal music. Can you wear metal tshirts and enjoy the aesthetic of a metal head without listening to the music? Sure. But are you a “metal head”? No. And why would you want to be considered a metal head if you don’t like; even hate the music? Why would you want to go to a show or be considered part of the community if you don’t participate in the thing that binds folks to it? If you’re curious about it, that’s enough to say you’re into it but I don’t get people who actively dislike the music who want the clout from being considered part of the subculture. So much of this comes down to the commodification of subculture. Goths don’t tend to gather because we like wearing black lipstick. We gather because we love the music. What that means is you can look however you want and still very much be a goth. But for most people the aesthetic and the music comes hand in hand. And the point I made in this video is if you like the aesthetic the chances are most goths aren’t going to actually care…but we will draw the line at you shitting on the music. That’s a huge problem where suddenly clubs no longer want to spin goth music because of normies who fetishize goth women or just appreciate the aesthetics but nothing else. I’m not saying you can’t dress in a stereotypical goth style if you don’t like the music. I’m saying you aren’t part of the subculture if you don’t like the music. In the same way I wouldn’t call someone a metal head just because they wear a metal band tee. But chances are if you’re drawn to those things you may like those things. I think it’s important to note that goth music is kinda expansive and has many different sounds and so you’re probably likely to find what you like. I’m very industrial/80s/post punk but there’s way more than that.
I understand you're trying to do the opposite of gatekeep, but actually music is not the whole/only thing. That might be your lived experience, in your specific area, but there's a whole world of gothness that evolved over the past century or two, long before "goth music" came into existence or became what it is now, and all the subgenres of goth are equally valid. Music goths are as valid as aesthetic goths are as valid as vampire goths are as valid as poetry goths and no one has any right to exclude anyone else because they don't fit into the exact same mold. Classical music is not any more or less goth than industrial. Artists and designers are not any more or less goth than writers or musicians. Everyone counts because we're all equally rejected by the rest of society for what we love. Why do the same thing to each other?
@@pvp6077 Music is the base. I said “goth is a music based subculture”. No one gathers around black lipstick Also many of you really don’t get this but…goths can have more than one interest. A goth enjoying classical music does not make classical music part of the goth subculture. Goths tend to be creative so of course they like many artistic things. But the base is goth music. No, someone is not goth just because they enjoy the aesthetic.
@@pvp6077 literally, I don’t even think you’re using the term “goth” correctly here. It’s like you think it’s the same thing as the word gothic. It’s NOT.
@@crow_featherbaby bat means someone who's new to the goth subculture, so there's usually a bit of an insecurity and projection to establish themselves as "truly goth" so they try to point out when someone else doesn't confirm to their idea of what goth is
Omg :0 Im kind of the opposite! My core aesthetic is ranbows and pastels. I look like a giant toddler, and usually rock or metal is blasting in my earphones. I went to see Twice and while I was waiting in the line I was listening to power metal.
But first and foremost it’s the music although honestly the music is also going to be a debate. Because you have the OG goth stuff like Siouxsie and Bauhaus which is what I go for and I can handle a little bit of like Lords of Acid and such for later stuff but even that’s very basic 😆
@@taintedlife2618I beg to disagree - it can't all be the music when gothic victoriana (mainly literature) existed. Heard of Bram Stoker? Mary Shelley ? Edgar Allen Poe ? Beethoven?
@@boondocksdragon8959 exactly, the dark, melancholic suffering of a war torn and black death recovering Europe in the late 17th to 18th century and the cold, unrelenting rise of industry in the 19th century was a substrate for what we now know to be Gothica
Agreed! From a hardcore kid, child of punk. If you aren't into the music and the counter culture of challenging the status quo, you just are not punk/hardcore.
Whats funny is I’m punk by music taste but I wouldn’t say I’m punk by politics. I’m too non-confrontational to truly have that mindset and personality. (But I love being a part of the punk community even if I don’t relate to many of the people within it :) )
punk is more politically based than music based i'd argue since there is so much variety in the music, it's hard to pin down what even qualifies as "punk music" although there are certainly things that aren't punk music, idk.. I just feel like the politics of anarchy and anti-capitalism are way more important to the subculture and it's history than the music itself, which was originally just a medium to spread the politics in the first place, and not an actual reason behind it's original founding
@@Picardspassword Hard disagree. The history of punk music is very important to a culture shift towards these mindsets. Just because it is not so obvious now does not mean it was not groundbreaking in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Punk music was apart of second wave feminism, apart of the gay rights movement, and apart of every social progress since then. It has always been a combination of both progressive ideals AND a subculture of music and community. It is not hard to identify Punk music, it is an entire family tree with many identifiable subgenres just like metal is. There are key instrumental elements to punk music as well as the underlying anger and push for progress, equality, and acceptance. Just because the mindset of being Punk is VERY important does not mean you can discard the music. Both the history of punk music and punk music itself is important to being a punk.
GOTH IS A MUSIC BASED SUBCULTURE. If you like goth music you are goth. It is not that complicated beyond what music is and isn’t goth. But that changes with time and most “goth music” is not created by people who consider it to be goth music. There is no one way to look goth and I feel the need to remind folks that your cultural understanding of goth comes from a white supremacist culture that repackages subculture to sell it to you for profit. What does that mean? It means you are going to see more representations of pale white goths whose goth identity is totally disconnected from the music. It means that it is often presented to you as white pale and thin because that is what sells. That is not what I’ve seen in the goth community; that we come in all shapes and sizes and that we are not only very queer but often a safe haven for queer folks. Will you meet racist goths who think all goths are white? They exist but they don’t really go to the club. Why? Because they are generally very terrible otherwise and the goth community is very small. When you’re ousted it will not end and it usually only happens to bigots and rapists. Yes goths are protective of their community and can come off elitists but I know so few who sit around and talk about who is and isn’t goth. So if you’re doing that shit online for cool points just know we would laugh at you. Our events need more support not less. #goth #gothaesthetic #gothculture #subculture
Also your style is like my dream from when I was kid. 😂. I would just walk through hot topic and wish I had the confidence. So you’ve been a gothic style icon for me.
People dress all kinds of ways at the goth club. But we're all there for the music, so we all belong there Like no one bats an eye at people wearing jeans or basket ball shorts even, it really doesnt matter
@@yonykyns I'm not, I'm getting upset about something that DOES concern me, because when I go to a place for the ambiance and some normie goes and ruins it when everyone else is dressed for the place then yeah, that very much concerns me
@@minagica jfc xD What someone else is wearing ruins it for you? How is someone a "normie" just because of what they wear? Clearly they don't have normie music tastes, otherwise they wouldn't be there.
Im 40 now and don’t have time or energy to pull out all of the makeup/clothing stops anymore. I wear a black Sun dress, cat eyeliner and call it a day. My clothes can be considered lazy goth because I love a dark aesthetic, but damn the music will always be my first love.
also, just because someone likes goth clothes and wears goth makeup doesn't mean they're necessarily identifying as a goth. Sincerely, a woman who does look like a Tim Burton Character who jams to Disney Songs and Dolly Parton
I've been into Goth since the mid 80's (before Enjoy the Silence was released) and judging by Kat's music collection....she's Goth. We don't all look like Siouxsie Sioux, but we all listen to her. 🖤
@@deezyhope675 she is BOTH! siouxsie has released gothic and proto goth music right after punk. goth music and the scene was created overtime by punks who developed post punk. the album JuJu and a few othere right after are goth music albums (gothic post punk). saying shes not goth is just dishonest. goth came out of 1980s post punk.
I told someone that if they don't listen to goth music then they weren't goth and I got called a gate keeper. Saying you need to follow the one "rule" in order to be in a group isn't gatekeepers. That's like calling yourself a metal head without listening to metal. It doesn't make sense.
@@theaterhobo I think it comes from media depicting any alternative person as goth, without any actual depth to the characters other than their appearance.
They just want the label but they don't respect goth culture, music or fashion. I don't get why they want it so bad. I don't dress goth, but I primarily listen to goth music (deathrock in particular), that makes me goth.
@@KatBlaque I love metal but don't really identify with metal culture much. Like a lot of metalheads are very sweet and all but I find metal's culture to be hypermasculine and I kept encountering misogynistic metalheads that I just stuck with the Goth community instead. It's far more cozy to me as a queer person.
I don't dress the part, really, as I'm pre-top surgery and I can't wear a lot of the stuff I want to wear without dysphoria getting in the way, but I still consider myself "goth" for similar reasons--the foremost being that I listen to and love the music. Basing membership in a subculture entirely on manner of dress and superficial adherence to an idealized image (which, in the case of the goth subculture, is too often a racist one) turns that subculture into an exclusive club based primarily on access to fashion--it flattens out the subculture into nothing more than a consumer trend, and I think that's frankly sad.
hey! i'm a pre-top transman, been on t for 3 years. i dress out at clubs mostly because the scene itself is very gender liberating. so if you ever do want to explore any "fashion," i can attest that goth nights or clubs are a safe place for you. however, of course, you can wear whatever you want out to nights hahah. just thought i'd share!
I feel it's a mix of aesthetic, culture and music. I view being Goth as a way of being and seeing beauty in things typically viewed as dark or negative too. Music, art, clothes, vibe. But yeah, I don't fuck with people who say you can't be Goth because you aren't done up as a Dark God/Goddess/Deity all the damn time. Or that skin color somehow disqualifys you from the community.
@@Pink-Turns-Blue I agree that it has a large influence on the culture we know. But, I don't think it's necessacarily a requirement to listen to goth music. I'm of the mind that so long as you remain respectful of the music, there is plenty room for folks that may focus more so on the feel, the mood, or the aesthetic of what is Goth. I don't agree the same, if said person states it is based on aesthetic alone. I'm just saying, that at this point, Goth is more than just a genre of music. And it's inspirations, are older than the music scene, in my mind. Perhaps I'm thinking more "Gothic" vs "Goth", but the two are often used synonmously so, it's how I view it personally. I was introduced to the Goth scene, in the early 2000's, with Visual Kei specifically, which led me down the rabbit hole of many other subgenres of what is, "Goth" music. As I grow older, I find my tastes are more eclectic in range, and feel like there is space in the overall alternative scene of a Goth.
@wyvernnflamez How can you want to be a part of a sub-culture where our most common ground is that we listen to and love goth music? We don't own the patent on dark attire and no one is saying you can't dress a certain way, but claiming to be goth is where it becomes a problem because it's fundamentally about the music. The idea that the sub-culture is more aesthetic based completely disregards the group of individuals who don't feel the need to get dressed up. Those who can't goth out because they have jobs where you can't shave half of your head. Parents who look after their children and can't be bothered to do their best Robert Smith/Siouxsie Sioux impression majority of the time. People who live in certain parts of the country or world where they can run the real risk of getting harassed or assaulted. Kids who have conservative parents who will not allow them to dress up for fear of them becoming devil-worshippers. Where does that leave those individuals to find a community? I got into goth via the music. I'm more subdued in terms of appearance, and by today's standards I would be considered a poser because I don't feel the need to eat, sleep and shit in a pair of Demonia's. In the process of trying to include everyone, it has become a fashion competition on who's the gothest. Music allows everyone to have a space in the scene and to completely denounce that and it's history to suit your needs is entitled. The bare minimum requirement is that you listen to the music and people can't even do that. Sure, call yourself whatever you want. I can't stop you, but when you're representing a group of people who you claim to be apart of don't be surprised when they have issues with you misrepresenting them. There's so much depth and culture that has been here for 40+ years. Anyone who isn't a complete pretentious asshole is willing to help you search for music that can kick your ass, but the total lack of care and an incessant need to be apart of something has ruined actual meaningful discussions. You don't need a label in order to like dark things. If you want one so badly "darkly-inclined" or just "alternative" work wonders.
Baby bat here! Very reassuring to here that its mainly music, despite the fact that I knew this already I've been told I'm not goth because I dont dress "goth"
Don’t let anyone fool you! You are goth NO MATTER how you dress, it’s a music-based culture. I’m not goth myself, I don’t listen to the genres, but I do recognise how respectful and fun the goth community can be. I am a bit emo though and I pride myself on my music taste, so I can wrap my head around your love for the broad range of styles and the music. Keep being you and never ever be afraid to be you🖤
Most people who say that aren’t goth themselves. Also people like to be very loud about things without having enough data. A lot of originators of the genre didn’t “look goth” either. ✨
I refuse to look goth but love all the goth music in the same way when i go to punk/hardcore shows i refuse to wear a uniform. Many people of different interests in different subcultures and its annoying we either have to stick to one or only dress a certain way
Thats why I love the la scene in general for anything, you see people from the hood at these shows, clubs etc not everyone is some white kid from the burbs with alternative parents
There is SOME fashion elements to being punk or a hardcore kid, but it is not that distinct or important to being in the community. Similar to what Kat is saying about goth, it is more important to be apart of the community than to "look the part". The important thing is loving the music and participating in counter culture that challenges the status quo. I will forever be a hardcore kid regardless of what I am wearing.
Oh my oh my oh my, I just here for your makeup, I love this,but I also love your looks that start off normal/ neutral. Then BAM ,masterpiece without looking like a clown (too cakey) or without being too too much makeup,just beautiful 😍
Fuck yeah, Kat! The music and challenging the status quo (since we’re a subculture). I often look like a tropical fish with a skull obsession, but you bet I’m on Twitch watching goth DJs and singing along with my favorite tracks.
HELL YEAH, as a fellow goth i love seeing goth creators emphasize that its a music based subculture instead of focusing on overdonr aesthetics. i want to see more representation of goths that arent all pale and even moreso understanding that goths don’t always dress gothic or dark!!
The more people that 'join' a subculture the better! It becomes so much easier to find clothes this way 😂 when I was young we had to make our own however not many are able to do this so it's not the worst thing to have more options of dress available for those who use personal style to elevate their individual within ❤
I know very little about goth culture but I really enjoy hear you talking about what makes someone “goth” and really makes me interested in researching more about its culture and nuances!!
💯❤️👏🏿 Love this. Informing people what is and what isn't is just educating them. Which is completely different from saying "you're not cool enough to be here."
Even on an aesthetic/style level, goth is soooo diverse in expression. Anyone who hasnt should look up photography of goth subculture folks from different eras/time periods. So it's just so funny when people equate it with a narrow viewpoint of what "goth" looks like. Still you're 100% right, goth subculture has shared roots with rave subculture. Maybe the confusion comes from the fact that some people have a lot of passion for the style side of the subculture, but ultimately it's the shared love of the music that brings people together.
this is such a positive take! and honestly i’m sick of all the fighting and labels in the alternative community, if you like the type of music why should it matter if you dont dress how people want you to, or if you put your own spin on the style! have fun, stay spooky, and be proud guys!
i hate that shit goth isnt a personality smh, goths have always been about partying and expressing themselves in public. house parties and clubs and venues have always existed in our scene since the 80s. also introversion just means you gain energy by yourself instead of talking, it got nothing to do with partying or dancing lol. i personally lean extroverted in general.
i’ve been emo for almost a decade now (clearly very different from goth lol) and i go to goth clubs all the time! everybody there is so kind and welcoming of different subcultures and I have such an admiration and respect for goth people, ya’ll are the best
Not to mention you can be goth and not listen to ONLY goth music, im goth and love and appreciate the music but i listen to every genre (besides country) but goth music will always have a special place in my heart over any genre
Same with punk too! People often think of red tartans, spikey hair and leather jackets with a bunch of studs, when a lot of punk bands wear just t-shirt and jeans 😂 I think for punk it’s always about the soul and attitude
I appreciate all forms of music. A lot of goth music is mixed into my playlist as well as industrial. I'm also a huge supporter of gothic clothing choices. People just hate because they love to be hide their racism behind their definitions. You are beautiful as always!
@brook_angel I don't think goth would exclude people who just like the aesthetic, but they would challenge identifying as one of the community until you abided by the one, singular, very achievable rule. I'm not goth so I can't say for sure. But subcultures are within their rights to define rules on entering their community, as long as it's not discriminatory on the basis of sexuality, race, gender, etc.
@@moonbun690 yeah but i feel like theres a really large portion of people who dont feel the need to gatekeep based off music, like its very much not a universal take that ur only goth if u like the music
@@emilymonahan5232 it's true tho lol. you're only goth if you like the music, that is the ONE RULE for being goth. most goths just don't feel the need to be up in everyone's business about it and asking people if they're really goth based on their appearance or if they dress gothic
Agreed. I grew out of dressing up. I wear black still just because I'm comfortable in black or darker clothes, but I haven't worn makeup or dyed my hair in years. ❤❤
I'm dying that you mentioned Headhunter from Front 242!! That was my song like, 20 years ago!! Saw them at Lollapalooza '93 and it was absolutely unforgettable!
I think having too many rules puts people off experimenting. I dont consider myself any subculture because I dabble in a lot. I'm just generally alty I listen to punk, goth, metal, emo whatever sounds good to my ear holes. Although style inspiration is very grunge lol. I'm too poor to buy new so I'm just patching, gluing and taping my stuff together
No one who has ever been part of that scene would say that you weren't ...for me it was Wolfheim, especially Once in a Lifetime. Me and mu sis would freak out and run lol.
THANK YOU!!! I also am frustrated over people telling others who they are. Especially anyone who says " A REAL [fill in the blank] is [more blanks] " F*ck that "real" shit! As soon as I hear that I prepare to hear some annoying petty abstract concept that means nothing. How can a person gatekeep a culture that worships rulebreaking and free thinking by imposing trite rules? Goth is a soulful experience! I hung with a lot of Goth folk in my younger years but I didn't generally dress like them. But I was one of them regardless. Sort of their Marilyn Munster. No one cared. No one should have.
I like goth rock but I wouldn't consider myself goth and would feel weird calling myself that. I dunno, I kind of feel like fashion is an important aspect of it. I would call myself someone who appreciates goth culture, but not necessarily goth myself.
The music and connection to counter culture / challenging the status quo will ALWAYS be far more important than aesthetics. From a hardcore kid that does not even experience this same phenomenon within my community. If it were the same I would feel VERY uneasy about people using my music culture as a fashion choice while disconnecting from the music and what the community stands for. Other subgenres of alternative music have the backs of goths standing up for their community.
i told my best friend yesterday theyre the most emo person i know and they were confused af. theyre half black and honestly never dressed using the fashion (they just dress comfortably and wear every color) but theyre kind of the only friend i know who listens to this much emo music lol its not the look its the feel, the look is just for fun!
loved this!!! I'm still a baby goth and have only been getting into goth music in the past year! even though i dress more like an amalgamation of a lot of different alternative subcultures i like, i still consider myself goth just as much as i consider myself punk
Not to argue but I always saw "Goth" as an aesthetic. Like, here in the UK we used to have Goths and Grebos, we all liked the same music, but dressed very differently
@@theaterhoboyeah that’s what people don’t get. Just because someone is goth doesn’t mean they don’t like other music. I’m all over the map musically but I socialize predominantly within goth spaces.
@@KatBlaque lol I've seen it! I never shared this before but I bump into comments from you in the most random places on RU-vid. Over the years it's had to have been like 6 times. I saw a comment from you on that song Finish Him by Namasenda and just started cackling 😂😂
I used to be Gothic in the style sense I liked the makeup a lot and did it everyday for over a year I never claimed to be a goth tho cause I didn’t necessarily listen to the music I just liked the style I’m older now and while I don’t do gothic makeup anymore and my makeup is just more slightly edgy anytime I see a full on goth in public have to compliment them they are so cool and I adore y’all so much
I miss goth parties so much, but unfortunately 99,9% of them are at night (like, midnight till dawn) and it's absolutely awful for my mental health. So, I just listen to my favourite bands alone
All this subculture talk as of late makes me wish I still had my gigantic UFO pants, and long hair. (Rip hair). I used to play that The Cure All Mixed Up CD over and over again in middle school.
Also there are different goth aesthetics too. Some goths wear lots of color, yes even pastels. It’s called a Pastel Goth. There’s also Cyber Goths who where a lot of neon. Not all goths where only black with maybe a little red or purple. As a Pastel Goth people often try to discount my goth identity because it isn’t the “traditional” goth aesthetic, which I did more when I was younger. As I’ve gotten older I realized I love wearing colors and didn’t want to limit myself💚
Me : being a fan of goth music Also me : dressing up as a historic inspired pastel Lolita I don't have any golf clubs but... I really want to go to one,one day, in full Lolita dress and just see people react to me dancing my life of on the danse floor haha~
The Goth subculture that emerged from the post-punk music scene was characterized by a love for the occult and a certain dark fashion aesthetic wearing black clothing, black nail polish and lipstick, dramatic makeup and dyed hair. Although this isn't always the case, it still is the vast majority. You simply don't dress like your average alternative, but more like you're somewhere under the umbrella term and aren't "goth".
I used to dance to Headhunter back in '89. Remembering that song has made me so nostalgic for being a young goth back in the late 80's and early 90's 🥰
I disagree with the premise but not the presentation if that makes any sense. "Goth" never started as a music specific genre, it started with books, poetry, and art. The love of horror, the ability to see beauty in darkness. The subculture in some specific areas might be music based but that's not applicable to everyone everywhere, and not everyone who likes "goth music" would actually consider themselves goth. It's a much wider cultural phenomena than a few bands or a specific sound. Just dressing a certain way or just listening to certain bands doesn't **make** you anything. Living the lifestyle is the only "certification" you're gonna get. And no one has actually been elected to some council of goth elders with a right to decide who counts or not. Vampire goths are goths. Aesthetic goths are goths. Music goths are goths. Steampunk goths are goths. Poetry goths are goths. Gatekeeping eachother doesn't provide legitimacy, it just makes everyone look less legitimate because we don't even accept each other. I understand this wasn't meant to gatekeep but was an expression of ops lived experience, and the desire to open doors for other people with similar experiences. The intention was there. The info needs updating though. Do a bit of research of goth history, look into the wider goth culture, and see how it has evolved over the last century (or so). You might find more of a diverse community than you'd think.
Emo used to be like that, you listened to the music, therefore you were an emo. I'm glad that Goth is still very much music based, but you look Goth to me for sure! I love the colour in your braids and the make up you do. You remind my of two of my bestie in one person 😂 I'm enjoying your content immensely ❤
yess!! also itd be v cool if you want to make a video/short recommending some music/albums 👀🖤 personally with gothy music i feel like i always end up listening to older stuff (like 00s at the most recent) and id love to find more current bands etc
Its like if someone didnt enjoy reading but called themselves a bookworm for "enjoying the library aesthetic" words have meanings lads, and its not gatekeeping to stick to those definitions
I value this perspective a lot, but in reading your comment explanation, I wanted to say that, people coming together over shared fashion choices that relate to alt subcultures is a huge part of goth/emo/other alt subcultures that I’ve bounced around in. Ignoring the music aspect is unforgivable, for sure, but I do think that people can bond and cluster and create events around just the fashion and style itself, which I experience as somebody who does not handle concerts well. It isn’t just about commodification, it’s that these things are the most visible and often very accessible parts of these subcultures, making them very open to discussion and finding your group of people!
I suspect some younger people may not know this because music has become so decentralized and people spend much less time experiencing it in social settings than they used to. It is interesting that music and dance used to be a very important part of people's social lives, but now only dancers dance and music is what we listen to in our cars.
Off topic even though I can't stand when people say you're not goth even though they are the ones who truly aren't lmao.... but you're makeup looks beautiful and I love the glossy black lip🖤
being upset that shes saying you need to listen to goth music to be goth is like being upset when someone says you need to listen to metal to be a metalhead
Thats the reason I still call myself a goth. Cant do the style anymore cause of work and sadly my fav club had to close... But I am still living for the music
Thank you! People used to ask me all the time in Middle school if I was goth because I wore Gothic clothes a lot, I never considered myself goth as i wasn’t familiar with the music so thank you for explaining this very crucial distinction!
Thank you for this!! Down with the gatekeepers!!! I've had goth friends in the past who told me I'm not goth because my clothes didn't fit... I've always worn what's comfortable for me and while I love goth clothing I never find anything that really looks right on me - and when I do I don't have the confidence to wear it because it doesn't fit what I usually wear and I feel out of place. I don't mind being characterised as a metal head - because I like metal I struggle to express emotions and the variety within metal helps me to do that, but goth music is my happy place ❤
That's both Hilarious and Sad. You are correct. Goth isn't defined by skin color or tone... It IS all about the music, and even you don't need my validation, you look awesome!
