Grimdark Deadend: How Games Workshop overindulged and the Fans got the 8th Edition Fluff Hangover 

Good video. The Primaris Marines can exist, I just think they probably could have found a middle-ground with the fluff which satisfied everyone. As I've said before, maybe Primaris Marines are merely the Thunder Warriors with their flaws worked out, but the Primaris burn bright and quickly fade away, the demands of their physiology burning out their physical forms far faster than the Astartes. For every increase in ability, there were compromises to be made. Therefore both existing marines and Primaris supplement one another rather than REPLACING one another, which I think is what really leaves the bitter taste in people's mouths. I think the community is actually really accepting of changing the fluff if it's done tastefully and it keeps the essential themes that came before. The way that Primarchs and the Heresy have changed over the years, how the Emperor is actually slowly coming to be portrayed as a horrible monster, how Horus was kind of right are all examples of delicately handling the fluff in new directions and allowing new and unique takes. Conversely, bludgeoning the new fluff and just pretending what came before never existed is infuriating to many people, and it's what I think has made the whole affair so... divisive. If they handled the story better, as you say, they could have really cemented the new edition in many people's minds. Of course, they took the lazy approach sadly with Deus Ex Cawl. Just putting ideas out there., great video mate!

I was definitely hoping that Games Workshop would take 'innovation' for the Space Marines through the discovery of new STCs that were lost in the galaxy since it has always been said in the fluff that there were STCs out there waiting to be discovered. I don't mind the fluff of the Primaris marines that speaks about their personalities and thoughts towards their creation and their attempt to fit in alongside the veterans of the great crusades. I don't like how they went about introducing them via Cawl just saying "By the way, I had these guys laying around for a few thousand years." One other thing that annoys me with the new fluff is the warp scar opening across the galaxy. After thinking about it for a bit, it very much seems like the writers have almost given up on the structure of the galaxy they used to tell stories from. The warp storms erupting everywhere distorting time and allowing armies to be fighting pretty much everywhere and nowhere is hugely reminiscent of Age of Sigmar's realms where there is no map, it is just infinite and therefore doesn't really give across the feeling that these subsectors matter anymore. I very much hope that they seal the scar in a couple years and bring back the galaxy map so that we have a solid foundation to start caring about. This is coming from someone who likes the Age of Sigmar lore, the stories are genuinely heartfelt and interesting, it is just unfortunate that I can have my immersion broken by remembering the locations that these heroes and villains are fighting for seem to not really have any permanence in their own universe. What made fantasy battle and 40k lore so great was the way we would hear about these massive armies clashing together and fighting for supremacy. One more thing that needs to happen is other races getting some spotlight. It's a huge waste to have such great factions with vast amounts of lore behind them go unused, and I'm sure players that play Necrons or Tau, Ogres or Lizardmen are feeling left out when the only boxes coming out now are between the super humans (Imperium/Stormcast) and Chaos. I believe GW are still passionate about delivering a great product and universe but they really need to start remembering what made that universe so great to begin with.

My cúpla focail (few words) is that I think the new Primaris marines look cool, but also extremely clean. There's very little of the classic 'gothic' element to their design, no aquila on the chest (are they trying to say something?) the models themselves are quite fun to tinker with but I'm worried about the monopose direction a lot of them are taking. I also loathe a lot of the new art, when I got the new rule book I was very excited to look through the artwork, I vividly remember spending ages looking at the art in the 4th edition rulebook and I loved the more gritty style they used in the older codexes and artbooks. The new pseudo-cartoon style is not to my taste at all. As for the lore, I think it has the potential to come good, it's quite hamfisted as is but there is a lot of potential there for a return to the grimdark ways, I think it could be interesting to see the Lion wake up and lead an older style Imperium against the brave new world of his brother. I think though, after reading dark imperium, that Guilliman is handled quite well actually. When he has a moment to himself you can really get a sense of how much of a godawful mess the imperium of M41 was compared to the days of the great crusade and I'm glad to see something change because the hand stuck at 1 second to midnight perpetually gets a little boring as story arcs go. Cawl however, I don't get that from a lore perspective. I really think they've undersold their ability to tell an engaging and somewhat mature story without getting all preachy like Star Trek or as vapid as Star Wars, neither of which I enjoy. I always thought of 40k as the bastard child of Dune and Judge Dredd, combining political and semi-philosophical musings with good old fashioned crazy violence.

This video is EXTREMELY in my wheelhouse. Which is apparently up my alley. Agreed on almost all points, TBH and I owe you a beer should I ever find myself in the UK. I'm... not a big fan of the new fluff to the extent that I left what I think was an entire five-paragraph essay with a three-part thesis on poor Sup3rSaiy3n's review of Dark Imperium (Mrs. Thompson from 4th Period English back in '96 would be proud of me but overall I'm mortified I went That Far). Needless to say it really does feel like this is a sea change in 40k in both themes as well as tone and I'm not especially feeling it. Models look great though so uh... Guess I'll just stick to the Heresy. Which is coming to a close soon but hey, maybe the real Heresy was the friends we made along the way.

I think what we might see happen is a literal civil war between the "Dark Imperium" (isolated side of the Galaxy) and Guilliman. We know that khorne has shown some favors towards the Blood Angels and wiped out the Tyranids attacking Baal for them. A civil war between the Blood Angels and the Ultramarines seems like a distinct possibility, making the gap between the halves of the Imperium a lot more than simply due to the warpstorms A lot of people say they don't like Guilliman because he's trying to make things better. The thing is, grimdark is pointless unless there's someone struggling to make it a better world. We have barely given GW any time to advance the plot so far- and they had the fall of cadia planned out (or at least were heavily considering it) since 6th edition, wherin the guard codex talks about the 13th black crusade crushing the Cadian gate and heading for Cadia itself. I think Civil War is what's going to happen, perhaps even something on the scale of a second Heresy.

I have been with wh40k since 1991 (I'm 46). It has always been baffling to me why they never made a huge Hollywood like production, motion picture(s).

honestly, ther wouldn't have been nearly as much backlash if they were just sold as true-scale marines.

It just made me turn to Horus Heresy and 30k fully.. Maybe if they bring back Leman Russ I´ll have a look at Farty K.. But not now, Primaris does not fit my beloves Space Wolves very well anyways.

Again, I would like you to revisit this topic with the dawn of 9th. I mentioned this on your video on the Primaris Repulsor. I really would be interested in hearing you thoughts reflecting on the changes brought into 8th and what it's going to look like going forward. I think others would be interested as well.

They did leave them selfs a loop hole with building new technologies wile keeping it in line with the fluff in the lost stc’s

I disagree. You can still be grimdark with Primaris, they're just a step forward in a still grimdark universe.

Excellent video. Thank you.

I'm actually pretty okay with the developments in the fluff GDubz have made. I think as you rightly say it had reached a point where there was little you could add to many factions, and whilst the plot device of Cawl isn't incredibly well written it serves the purpose. They have also left some interesting cliff hangers: what did Guilliman and the Emperor talk about? Did the Emperor ask his son to kill him? What EXACTLY did the eldar do to Guilliman? and what is Cypher doing running around on Terra? I also think there is an opportunity to make the primaris quite grim dark as their own faction, separate and alongside standard space marines. One of the fluff draws to them for me is they seem to be thought of as nothing more than a necessary evil, whether it be Guilliman referring to them as "Cawl's blasphemous hordes" or how the ancients in the redemptor dreadnoughts are seen more as biological batteries that can be replaced as and when they run 'out of power'.

I found WH 40k in 2006 by chance as a PC game (Dawn of War: Dark Crusade). Then i came in contact with it again with the PS3 Space Marines game. Thought that was all it was until 2014 when I discovered the tabletop game and then the novels. Since then ive finished over 56 novels and I've painted 2500 pts of Blood Angels. When I started playing on the tabletop 8th edition was released earlier that week. So I love the Primaris lore and the novels surrounding them. I'm 37 and obsessed with Space Marines now.. thanks GW

You seem really bitter about the changes they have made. I started playing this game when my older brother got the Rogue trader game for Christmas in 87. I remember the changes they made into 2nd edition, I remember the now classic monopose marines from the 2nd ed game and how they were different from the Rogue trader marines. My chosen army is Dark Angels. I remember how they developed the stories behind them. Changing things like the colour of the Terminator armour, I still have some which are black (as were the power armour marines p168 shows you what colours they were), and some some models from the 1st Company Deathwing in Power armour because they could wear power armour back then, they were not always Terminators like now. I followed the lore much more than the game, I played well into 3rd edition on a regular basis, after that not so much. But I kept reading the stories. The story developed from there but nothing ever really happened, they added colour but no flesh, it was just more and more wars that happened in the recent past. It wasnt until the story about the 13th black crusade and the fall of Cadia that GW really took the story beyond the work in Rt and 2nd Edition. 2nd Edition was more of a change that I can remember up until now because it wasnt really until 2nd that we had separate army lists for all the armies. I remember Codex Ultramarines describing the Tyranid invasion of Ultramar, Codex Tyranids really developed what was a basic army. The game was stagnating because the story just wasnt developing. They were adding to it but nothing was pushing it forward until they decided Cadia would have to fall, Roboute would come back and when he did Cawl announced after 10k years he had finally finised what he started etc etc. People dont like it because its new. I saw your video about the Primaris grav tank. You come across as being really bitter in that because the Primaris do and mostly dont fit into your Space Marine army. (why cant a Land Raider carry Parimais when its big enough etc etc) The story and the game has to develop, and it doesnt have to be in a way that everybody likes. Im still building the old space marines, I add to it all the time, not only new models but 2nd ed models too and yes Ill be adding Primaris stuff to it too because I like the story, 10,000 years is a long time to stay the same.

Well said. Your video reflects my thoughts and those of my friends well. Quite a few 40k content creators express their satisfaction with primaris, but these people are often selectively invited to new releases etc, so I don't think they are unbiased! I have asked GW staff several times about how primaris came about. I expressed my appreciation at the quality of the models, but explained my disappointment at the story line, and concern of my space marine models becoming defunct. I have been told at the recent GW open day, that they came about as a brainchild from the lead model designer Jez Goodwin, who had been working on them for some time. I was told that the motivation was purely creative, as opposed to a corporate interest (but I'm not entirely convinced). So the story in either event was evidently cobbled together to make it work in time for the 8th edition game release. In a separate conversation with a store employee when I tried to find out more about the storyline behind the new releases, I was treated with some contempt when I expressed confusion with respect to new technology employment and fix it all approach. I said like you outlined, that I felt this was throwing away a core theme of the well established universe. This employees response was that "but we write and control the lore, so it's up to us how it works out". When something like this has existed for such a long time in a certain state it feels to me contemptuous of anyone to disregard. But I think as you say, they have a strategy, and it's likely to be one of simplification to appeal to a wider audience. Purists won't win, as you can tell by their recent sales figures and share price, the market is looking favourably on their recent decisions.

Good video! I've fought with this direction myself. My resolution on it, was that as long as they complete the Horus Heresy series, both in the literature and with the model range, i'm totally cool with them making 40k more appealing to the younger generations. I don't have to collect/play 40k, as long as i have alot of Heresy to keep me busy.

So, what really needs to happen here, is that we need a real author to rewrite the lore of the Primaris Marines. Obviously, Cawl is not solely responsible for everything that is happening. He has to have entire teams of tech adepts and priests under him doing work. And, to be honest, all the people that claim that the Space Marine formula cannot be improved beyond it's current status, look no further than the Custodian Guard. Bigger, stronger and tougher than regular space marines, due to additional augmentations.

I'm glad they moved the story froward. Kinda surprised on how they went with the lore. I only wish they gave the average soldier more limelight. Aside from being the next corpse. You need some hope once in a while or else you get an apathy induced audience. Grim dark can only go for so long before becoming just depressing and sometimes grim derpy. One case being Scions codex of using failed candidates in the mortar of their building while they are still alive. That just felt weird for a few reasons. One, this feels more like a Chaos thing Imperial. Two, why go that far? Just simply turn them into servitors or dispose of them and then use remains for building. I also believe that its possible that by bringing some light into the lore, it'll help bring in new clients who are younger. The Imperium is still falling apart but now it has a new purpose and a hope for better tomorrow.

Invaluable content. A must watch for all.

Well they have some new and interesting plot points with indmitus crusade and imperium nihilus, the former being a 100 year gap in the lore and the later being a large part of the imperium that is now cut off. I for one I'm taking a slightly positive outlook for things to come, but time will tell.

That was a pretty solid assessment, I had a fervent perspective, then you twisted it on me which I feel makes for a well crafted commentary. First, I would like to contextualize that I am 40 and have been collecting 40k models since the late 1980's, so I am guessing we are in the same boat. As for the perspective, I agreed that the Cawl piece was luke warm but I bought it for the same reasons you pointed out: boxed into a corner, needing breadth, you can't sell the same models for 20 years with out incentive to buy new ones, etc. so the pragmatic in me gave them the buy. Having grown up reading super hero comics I have experienced two iterations of the Secret Wars and understand that you can't tell the same story for generations without some explanation as to why a hero never ages and villains never truly die. The twist came when you articulated that they could have done a better job, now the pragmatic who stuck to his pro-Primaris guns is wavering. I feel that you are right. I am totally cool with Primaris as I feel that the possibility is in the fluff and feel that GW have spent a good deal to keep some aspects of the background hidden allowing for surprises, the idea that Space Wolves are tinkering with their genetic material to get rid of the Cainis Felix, or Horus was worried about a future where marines were stronger sort of gives it a pass. But even then I feel like there should have been more foreshadowing, this TechPriest comes out of nowhere, had all the resources of Mars unbeknownst to anybody and shows up to change the game? Totally agree that that was sloppy. In the end I am still okay with them, giving GW a pass considering the circumstances, yes, it was a bit forced, but tolerant because of the creative corner. Revisionist history is always a bit bitter, and that is what this is. However, as far as I am concerned, I am keeping an eye on them to see how they handle and explain it in the future. They have done a good job in adding Centurians into the fluff to appear going forward that they were always there, so lets see, do they change history to include the foreshadowing? Will it feel forced? Will it feel natural? Lets see. This was a fun exercise, keep up the good work!

I kept waiting for you to open one of the books. :(

I am all for it and I've been playing since 1987 - if I wasn't finishing my Ad Mech army off, I'd be all over the Primaris Marines. It is not just the models I love, it is also the new back ground. If anything it is still as grim and dark as ever, if not more so - even with the return of Guilliman and all the shiny new toys, the galaxy remains as horrifying a place as it ever was. After 30 years 40K needed a shake up, not just another set of new rules, and I think it has been much better handled than it's fantasy stable mate. What I find most tiresome is the constant superior than thou attitude that many fans of the Horus Heresy have towards 40K - you DO play 40K. Outdated 40K, but none the less, 40K.

I don’t know if you have done anymore “What Made 40K” videos, but talking about how The Dark Crystal (1982) influenced the Eldar would be a pretty awesome video.

I'm 22. Yes, it's silly. They just pulled caul out of their butt. But, I'm just am buying a tau army and a couple deathwatch minis, so, not really my problem :p Great vid

Excellent video as always. I personally think that within the next couple of years the classic Space Marine will be phased out and there only be Primaris Marines.Everybody's armies will look the same. Gone will be the different marks of power armour , gone will be the freedom to mix n match your figures , everyone will have the same mono-pose figures just a different colour . I also think that Games Workshop will find same way to crowbar the bloody things in to the Horus Heresy !!!!! Probably have them defending the Emperor at the Siege of Terra . Oh well it was good while it lasted .

The fact there is a warp rip in reality from the eye that’s torn the galaxy asunder... - if they get better flash lights or tanks or not doesn’t stop that being incredibly grim..dark it’s hardly looking hopeful now some new dudes with better boots turned up.

Not to worried as it seeks like some big things could go wrong. It feels like (and this is assuming that the primarchs are returning) GW is trying to give primarchs and primaris worthy chaos Opponents. Not that I think it will be written well, but I disagree that they have written themselves into a corner, 42k is concerned.

personally I don't like the fluff behind primarus marines but I love the models o personally use the models and rules cause I think the rules better represent the amount of badassery of real space marines but cay that its just a new cooler looking mark if armor and yes I'm a younger newer fan being as I'm 17 and got into the hobby under a year ago last December to be exact

Progressing a setting kills the setting.

[#800] 20:20 = Couldn't agree _more._ -> 18:18 Anybody else notice how GW Fluff never refers to the Astartes as *_PRIMARUS_*_ Marines_ any longer (??) ( * It's a good bet they know who the Lore they wrote to support their introduction was proverbially *_Built on Sand._* .....Quick-sand that is. )

When/if Warhammer fails what would we have learned? Don't write yourself into a corner, if you want to make your universe completely grimdark you're going to end up in a stagnant universe. You need to keep a decent balance when they introduced the T'au as a young hopeful race trying to make peace, I believe that was their attempt to try to pull back from the Grimm dark. But of course everyone one hates the T'au because "mu grimmdark"

Haven't been keeping up with the 40k Lore, especially since the introduction of Cawl and Guilleman. I found the Primaris to be basically, yeah right, whatever... but I can see how they're essentially necessary. I'd have prefered a fleshed out Cawl character, slow flashes of insight leading up to his emergence, not the Deus Ex Machina he was used for. Especially since frankly he has a wonderful physical model. There's a lot more they could have played on with Guilleman - is he *really* who he appears to be? What if Cawl's process did something to him and he's slowly unraveling, etc? They clearly brought Guilleman back because: Ultramarines. As you mention in your video, SM are the heart of 40k (for most people). Bringing back the most popular Primarch of one of the most popular factions? Not really a decision that needs a lot of thought (certainly financially). For growth in the Lore, while I don't think it's a misstep per se, I don't think it is the New Big Bang they were quite hoping for, and I feel like, with the rush to get all the new Codexes out, especially for all the SM chapters, nvm the rest of the range, that GW has obscured the issue of design space availability. The launch and relaunch of so many box sets, games, Start Collecting boxes and new AoS, not to mention AoS2.0 has also tended to overshadow this problem. Not necessarily a purposeful thing, I think it's just serendipity of a sort - GWs eager to make all these things, the fans, including myself are eager to purchase them. Voila, what's this about no more room in the Grimdark? Also, some 10 months or so on now, obviously they did manage to find some room with the relaunch of all the Knights, which is a significant event. I do see however this will start to rear its head again, probably right after the Ork codex comes out... Mostly because, as you say, how is the Imperium going to advance? I can think of several ways, some already mentioned, like finding the old STCs -- my personal druthers: maybe Cawl, maybe a complete accident, maybe the Dark Mechanicum, but somehow, actual AI is unleashed on the universe. Perhaps now we'll find the reason Tyranids exist. Or they'll figure out a way to beat the AI(s). Anyway, I can see quite a lot of room for new ideas, just not human-centric necessarily at least initially. Maybe, possibly, even room for tenuous, uneasy alliances between Chaos and, well, not SM maybe, but perhaps some smaller elements, thrown together in a sink or swim way.

Lets be clear here there are 2 camps and always will be, those who like, love, lived the back story, fluff, history or whatever and understood the political and social idea behind the story of 40k and those who couldn’t care less. As a man in my 40s with a collection of essentially toy soldiers I can’t really take myself or any of this overly seriously (I’ve got kids, a mortgage and a career which are frankly more important than this stuff) BUT. I still remember the original idea, I still read a certain section and idea/ideal of sic fi and 40k was, until recently, really one of the last bastions of keeping a certain sic fi ethic alive and well. GW is a commercial company and as much as the art / story team might like to keep the idea alive it quite simply does not sell. Sci Fi as a genre has fundamentally changed, there are very very few truly dystopian sic fi books or movies around (despite what tween fiction might like to tell you it is, it really is not). We who might like to hang onto old ideas are in the minority and really are not the target audience for the new primaris abomination tank etc. If you don’t like the new direction thats fine, GW has your back, come over to Heresy where the Grim is Dark and the the future is already written.

Spot on LC! You've hit the nail on the head. You have so eloquently voiced what I've been quietly thinking. Like you I am very much enjoying the heresy setting, the only thing I would like to see is an update with the mechanics of 8th. I understand what you meant about cutting the older fans loose and specifically targeting a younger base. But I don't see that as being altogether a mutually exclusive options for them. Because, as you say they are painting themselves into a corner, and if the do go down that path the problem for GW will be that it's the older fanbase that have grown the disposable income necessary to afford their outrageously priced toys (and buy them I do). They just need to 'deepen the experience' here in the confines of the rule books because I don't have time to read the novels. I don't know if I can agree with you on the issue of lazy writing. I get the feeling that perhaps the people tasked with the development of this project have only been set operational parameters and just haven't been given a big picture view to work with. If this myopic world view is the case then Belisarius Crawl makes perfect sense. What I find important is the deployment of some strategic vision in depth. I wish I knew where they were going with all this I just don't see it myself. At least not at this stage.

A great insight, definitely reading my mind with so many points! Great content! I hope they bring a lot of the 30k models into 8th edition seems silly they haven't. I want to see my Thantar's smashing the Primaris Marines! :D

This is a difficult topic to discuss. I was one of the people (from the Rogue trader era) bored with the setting and jumped at the chance when HH was out. I found the HH story better, the GC (great crusade) and HH setting better and the minatures and vehicles more interesting. ¨ Presently I like the new setting, new minatures and most of the story except the part of Cawl, it is too silly, and too much of an excuse for the changes. I can see why alot SM players are annoyed aswell. The gathering storm did not work well as a bridge between the two settings. The story was too fast and poorly written. and it reminded me of the End Times novels and End Times books for Warhammer Fantasy. There still needs to be a better storyline written (or rewritten) regarding the new tech, new primaris marines. I would also prefer it if the Emperor was contacting Gulliman or mechanicus etc through various means as a reason for this change in the SM and their tech. Regarding the story: I enjoyed the Dark Imperium book as it did a good job in establishing the setting after Gulliman was back. I have also enjoyed the two Chris Wraight novels that show Terra just before the gathering storm and at the very end. The Cawl part is just too cheesy, I add again I will wait to pass judgement until all the factions are out and after at least a year's worth of new novels are out. ADB has said there are some brilliant novels on the way, so I live in hope. The medieval stagnant setting is now over in one respect, the Renaissance with tech change has begun, perhaps that is just the archaeologist in me.....

Thought provoking!!! I at first had a defensive stance against the premise of this video, but hearing it out I understand :) Been enjoyed this amazing Universe for about 15 years now, which is synchronistic that I was 10 years of age at that time. The lore has always been part and parcel to the experience of the game. All the time reading, deploying the action before yourself is exhilarating. But I have had a disconnect from the idea of the progressing lore because I have been for so soooooooo long been awaiting the return of the Primarchs who had been "missing" or in stasis/meditation/in da rok etc. With G-mans return the fantasy of who is coming next quickly followed. The existence of the Horus Heresy and the seeds of that erra have always been the first roots to this game and Universe for me and all my friends who joined me and still play today. Hearing Guilliman was coming back was literally a dream come true... A dream so strong that I have overlooked their execution of the story line, as well as the implications it carries in favor of my joygasm. Man, Fix it all Cawl is exactly write. There is literally too much dialogue to be said about that situation to be typed here. I like you say, as part of the younger generation of the game, half your time, carry a different optimism about the games future. I don't play Imperial races, not because I don't like them. But in the Grim Dark, I wanted and still like to BE the Darkness. Tyranid's, Tau and Eldar are my boys, ladies and androgynous fam. I enjoy the uncertainty, the unpredictable nature of the progressing story because I have so many answers I want. I really want to see the successor series to Horus Heresy in today's time and beyond. But the writers perspectives are matched against the multifaceted views and desires of those who have been with this hobby and passion for so long. I want to know what Lorgar has been experiencing in his meditations for 10k years. I wanna know where Russ has been. I want to know what Lion Els been sitting on his ass doing, supposedly etc etc etc. That lore, those thoughts and ideas have been in a frozen frame for my entire lifetime here in this world and finally the time has come. But as you say, could this be the 'End Times' ?????? WE will see, more money and love has been poured into this hobby than any other in my life and I hope just as much as any that the Apocalypse of Sigmar does not reach this Drim Darkness.

Well i am 24 and play warhammer 40k for 14 years. I mean the crawl thimg is kinda fishy but i really like the new models they are good. Death Guard are very nice the Primaris are ok i have a lot of em and i look forward to new models really.

Big thumbs up to this kind of content leakycheese . Moar please :)

In 2018 it is noticeable that GW is spearheading new product lines to extend their miniatures range by introducing spin-off games from WH40K where the miniatures can actually be used in the WH40K base game, they're doing this without stamping on the lore too much. Interesting times.

Excellent video. But I remember when Space Marines were just enhanced humans not super god like humans. And nope no thought out plot line or product.

Stop saying "30 years" and "Decades". I'm feeling old.

If the reason for larger space marines was scale purposes, then they should have just made larger models and ignore the physical sizes of the models on a whole. The players would have turned a blind eye. And in the long run the old models would have faded out like the early editions did.

If GW was writing books and not making models, I´d bet Crawl will be a traitor for a big Heresy with the Primaris. Primaris should get a codex for themselves so their development can be controlled and properly done, not being a growing tumor on the regular codex, their miniatures look nice i agree, but their concept itself is not really necesary. Are they going to create better primarchs and take Gulliman to a farm upstate where he can run and play? GW should develop Imperial Guard and Sisters of battle, since they are human factions it´d easier, and then, if they feel brave the rest, that will help sell more models and make the tabletop more varied instead of 60%(to say a number) of armies being marines.

I've never a been fan of Space Marines. Sure there are exceptions but I never like the lore behind them. As a result of being the most interesting mini range they got every power and every interesting events centered around them, which is fair enough. Now I'm not the biggest fan of the primaris lore but I don't see it as much of a big deal. I either ignore it and see primaris as true tabletop representation of the standard lore marines (a discrepancy that has been notable in almost all editions of the game), or I just interpret the new lore as creating in effect a split Empire of man, kinda recreating a Byzantine Empire/Roman Empire situation. Either way works and is interesting in its own right.

The Pmarines aren’t innovation for 40k, they are innovation of 30k. Crawl is over 10k Year’s old and has solely been working to this end (to the best of our knowledge). So my, stomaching of it, is that there is probability to new Pmarines armour patterns and vehicles, but I think/hope it would be he’s designed them, just only released when GW gets to them, rather than releasing 50+ kits, lets say. I do see some of the laziness that people mention, but I don’t see it as making the Imperium less grimdark, but do certainly share the hope that they don’t make the old marines obsolete. Think of all the stories that could be created from this...the dark angels secret, the blood angles thrust, the imperium infighting with those that were possibly saviours...I doubt there will be time for innovation and a greater possibility for an even darker grimdark, close to a second heresy but by no means a heresy with that level of schism. Could be some amazing stories to come and I, puttting aside some of the Crawl fixes, remain optimistic and hopefully they’ll continue to make amazing lore.

Excellent video

I think its gone in an alright direction overall. They had to refine 40K from its origins (I remember how it was in the 80's!) to where it is now - too much innovation and you end up with Tau but then think about the whole 30K/Heresy thing, it was a big success and got lots of people into the hobby. The history of 40K is so huge they could look at other times - the Age of Exploration? Age of Strife? The Men of Iron etc.? There's still alot of room for development IMO! They also have all that Rogue Trader and slightly later stuff to gather inspiration from - Genestealer Cults being a good example (I remember rule sets for Ork Genestealer cults and an excellent 'Eavy Metal segment that had a Genestealer Cult with its own limousine!). The Primaris scale will eventually be implemented fully - think about the old plastic beaky marines, who uses them anymore (as cool as they are)?

I hope I don't reach that dead end with my wargame I'm designing.

Every time I play a game of 8th at my local club I find I have no enthusiasm for it. I can only put it down to the new fluff. As on the whole I think the rules are better than 7th. I’m really debating about selling my 40k factions at the moment and sticking with Horus Heresy and a few other games. Some of the writing does feel like a Saturday morning cartoon at the moment. I like the idea of the great rift but its execution makes me cringe on the inside. I pick up my copy of Rogue Trader every so often and enjoy re reading it I’ve not made it through the fluff of 8th rule book yet. My friend lent me his copies of the gathering storm books it felt like I was studying for a hated subject at school reading those books. Great vid as always.

I think it was in the second half of the 90s that they went big and then started taking themselves too seriously, being less ironic on certain topics to appeal to a younger audience -or not to drive their parents mad-, and to rewrite the story behind some characters, units and races. It is sad, I really liked the non-seriousness of things like the Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clouseau, the Arbitrators being some reinterpretation of Judge Dredd, and the bare chested Custodes who were very hyper masculine -and homoerotic- guardians of the emperor. For me the reason why the Deathwing wears white armours is because the events in the short story of the same name and not some new rewrite of the story.

Better Call Kaul!

Except....Primaris are not really innovative tech wise? At all? They have the genetic mods similiar but not on par to Custodes and have access to gravity skimmer tech the Ad Mech has been hoarding since the Horus Heresy. Gear wise the basic Primaris marine is in a bigger suit of armor and given rifle sized heavy bolter...other than that they are equipped with remixed terminator and assault gear.

I much prefer the 2008 Space Marine codex than the fluff based 2018/19

I started gaming in the early nineties and really enjoyed the grimdark theme of WH40k. I lost interest over all especially with the "all proper space marines are Ultramarines" period. I enjoy some of the HH books. Necromunda brought me back last year, especially the new sculpts. The level of printing errors in the books makes me roll my eyes. I suppose the original developers didn't have the safety net of the Internet and the ability simply release an Erreta/FAQ. Over all I prefer the skirmish games over the larger scale conflicts. I don't have the funds or the space for anything else. Good video, I do wonder weather they do an "Age of Sigmar" retcon with a future release.

I HATED the Death Guard until I started painting them.

Im struggling with the lore myself. I have only been around since 5th edition, but I feel put off by the lore direction games workshop was gone. The lore leads in the direction of selling models fast, rather than blending the lore and models well. There were other ways they could have advanced the plot without so dramatically altering the lore. I try to look at it from an objective light, but I do feel slighted by GW, so much so that I have felt a large drop in my motivation for the hobby.

I love this kind of video and do a great job of providing context. While I completely agree with you, I really like Belisarius. I agree that he is very much a poorly executed uninteresting plot device he exists in Sci-fantsy tropes that really excite me. I love the Intersection of a Literal deus ex machina and transhumanism. I like the idea of a Machine man is creating and ubermensch or that cyborg space Leonardo LItraly improves upon the vitruvian man by making his preportions even more perfect really tickles me. Having said that If you look at the lore the ideas i love take quite a bit of heavy lifting in to my head cannon from about two paragraphs in the Dark Imperium novel.

Great video, i personally have no issue with the 8th ed departure but im looking at it from a business point of view and I also have the advantage of having grown up with 40k since rogue trader, interesting times!

While I agree that the recent changes have been clumsily handled, there is now a helluvalot of potential in the 40K 'verse that wasn't there previously. The primaris marines are guaranteed to provoke multiple reactions within the Imperium - the inquisition will NOT be happy for one. Then there's Cawl. While Guilliman may be happy with what he's done, the majority of the AdMech would be screaming "TechHeresy" at the tops of their voices. Most, but not all... Then, there's the warp-tear in the galaxy. There's massive potential there. Who knows what could be happening... As to the Why? Money. 40K has been slowly grinding to a halt for years. Suddenly! there's the potential for change. GW knows this will quite likely annoy many older players, but they also know that by making the changes they will attract more younger players. More younger players = more new armies being bought = more money for GW. GW's attitude to older players who don't like the changes? Well, why not try 30K? Sure, some older players will stop playing altogether, but many who would otherwise quit the game will change to playing 30K. Those who change over will suddenly need to buy Forge World models to be competitive. Forge World models = Ka-CHING for GW! Personally, I'm beginning to think that GW's plan is to develop a tier system of games in the 40K universe. Tier 1 - Shadow War: Armageddon & Necromunda as the starter games, to get players into the setting - fairly complex rules, but offset by a small model count. Tier 2 - 40K. fairly simple basic rules, but lots of models. The mainstream game for the masses. Tier 3 - Horus Heresy 30K. Complex, highly granular rules & lots of (expensive) models. The game for the hardcore gamer...

I think the problem is that a lot of the people who cared left the company. Now they've just a bunch of people thinking "Eh, good enough".

GRIM DERP. I wish they kept the tongue in cheek, it works better to make the dystopia somewhat silly than just make it edgy.

i agree with the points. you mentioned sigmar, thing is as bad as people might think the 40k jolt is, how badly the lore was smashed togehter.... yeah, just take a look at the corpse of warhammer fantasy, the lore of sigmar and people can be somewhat thankful it isnt the gargantuan carcrash that happened over there. I think they let themselves down big time with both, but sigmar is the real shame. I can let the primaris stuff slide, im immersed in the heresy, i dont rly look too much at the modern lore, im happy to ignore this chapter in the development. The primaris models look rly cool so im fine with them existing and slowly becoming how marines are. keep ur old models, play with them, but as someone who had tons of the old mk6 late 80s plastic marines... eventually you look at them and think nah, theyre just too crap now, the new stuff is just way better and im happy buying it.

This does sound a lot like Age of Sigmar. I kind of wish I had gotten into the old material sooner, because now I have to watch it turn into this and be disappointed. Stop the bs GW.

I was under the impression that the Tau were created to appeal to the then new Japanese market. But Im probably totally wrong...

they can always make something new and just say it isn't new, it was always there. various designs come and go , they could have made special roid marines that are bigger and just inserted them into lore. as long as it fits in people wouldn't complain anymore than background complaint radiation. also they invented the idea of STCs just for this reason.

Well, the problem with Grimdark is that it starts at the absolute bottom. There is no other way to progress the story other than for civilization to go up. Eventually, it has to become less grimdark because the only other alternative is the setting coming to an end.

theres one reason why the primaris marines exist, and it has nothing to do with the fluff. GW thought they had found a way to get space marine players (there biggest customer base) to re-buy their collections. The models are nice enough, but the tactic hasn't worked (at least locally to me) and has instead turned a lot of long term players off the game.

All I've heard is that people hate "Robotic Girlyman" for being Mary Sue. I don't know much about the character, so I'm like meh.

They need to bring some of the talent from the Black Library and Horus Heresy to the new lore, players would be more on board if it just made more sense and wasn't so rushed

70s-80s you say? I wonder how much LSD was consumed while writing rogue trader haha

My lore knowledge is very basic, running off memory from my childhood in the 90s. Today, I love the new models apart from the new super heavy tank but from what I've been hearing and listening too. I do agree the Guileman arch and how the primaris marine came to be, seemed a little to easy for a very grim world. That's as much as i can really say as my investment into Warhammer always came down to modelling and painting, only really touched upon the lore and playing games. Although listening too a lot of lore video's such as yourself leakycheese and others.

2019- GW introduces Gigantus Space Marines. In the grim darkness of the far future there can be only war-and bad writing. After a centuries long battle between the old and the new, The Primaris Marines emerge victorious against the Astartes they once called brothers. From the start, there were questions if the smaller, but seasoned, battle hardened products of the Emperor could ever fully accept and work with the larger, more capable, but untested Primaris Marines. The answer was no. Over time a bitter dissent grew, culminating in a rift that could only be settled in blood. When the smoke finally cleared from the last of these family feuds, It was obvious that while Primaris Marines had won out, the margin of victory was far from that of what could be expected. The good news being that the Imperium, having genocided the regular Astartes, and reduced the Primaris to dangerously low numbers, had the perfect answer waiting on Mars. Yes, Belisarius Cawl has 500,000 Gigantus Marines just waiting to report to duty. Bonus: using a virtual reality neural net reverse engineered from a recovered, but damaged STC., these guys have been training in VR for 2,000 years!

Firstly, if you want to hear old fans liking the new lore, give The Fluffenhammer Podcast a listen. Secondly, I think this is building to something~ Because remember, half of the Empire is stuck behind the Cicatrix Maledictum(tm) and the could lead to a GW having its cake and eating it situation with a new hopeful Guilliman Empire and the same old shit Empire at the same time. Would be a good excuse to have Imperial Armies fighting one another. Isn't that's why we have Lore in the first place? To explain why everyone is fight everyone else at all times. And I don't think we will be seeing any new Primaris anytime soon, given how players of other factions is crying out for there own "new cool shit".New Primarchs on the other hand~ They are what people love about the Horus Heresy books after all.

This was great, nice work. I guess people are getting dumber, so...

I'd even feel confident arguing that 40k's universe is larger in concept than Star Trek and Star Wars. A lot of details in Star Wars is noise and a lot of details in Star Trek is politics and doctrines. 40k grabs back to more primal ideas, especially with it's primarchs. A clash between two legions is more than a political disagreement or a territory dispute, it's a complete clash in different philosophies and values.

nothing can last forever tbh but i hope 40k will come back in a good way.

So I should start by stating that I am a 40K and TT noob all together. I finally looked into it and saw that there was a new edition with new rules and figured it was perfect for me being new alltogether. I purchased the Dark Imperium set and then started falling through almost 3 decades of lore trying to find a spot for me (which way am I going to paint these suckers.) I have decided that I want my own so I set about trying to wedge my own chapter from the existing ones. Then I realised that I love the lore of the pre Horus Heresy but not so much the religious aspects of the "current age". So i have decided to go where I could see the lore going, renegade Primaris. I mean these are people raised and recruited in a time where the Imperium would eliminate you for believing the Emporer was a God, then awoken to fight for an Imperium that would eliminate you for not praying to the Emporer as a God. Just on a basis of common sense I cant see too many Primaris being happy. My chapter believes that Girlyman is a false Primarch, a rouse by either xenos or chaos. I have a large back story in mind but thats the skinny of it. Mind you this is a fresh perspective on things so therefore I am aware that i do not know what i do not know. To me a storyline of returning Primarchs and jaded Primaris in conflict with a stagnant Imperium would be a good landscape for future fluff.

My hope is that: 1) The Primaris models become a popular staple of armies. 2) Then they start making Primaris-sized regular marines on the assumption that marines were always of that size. All marines can have two wounds. :) 3) The Primaris lore is downplayed to the point that they are a minor innovation in the lore, and they no longer have any specific units in the codex. It was simply an above-par founding relative to most others. It's decided that the grav-vehicles may have been normal for most of the Astartes history. Maybe the STC knowledge had only been missing for a few millennia at most.

I saw the introduction of Cawl (and the explanation of his absence during the past 10,000 years) to be a smart move by Games Workshop. They've managed to get around the dogmatic, stagnant corner that they painted themselves into with the Adeptus Mechanicus background. Cawl is, probably, a mary sue like character but only because he's had 10,000 years to get everything ready. Given the regressive and collectively forgetful nature of the Imperium, there could be dozens, hundreds, maybe even THOUSANDS of projects like this that have been forgotten since their creation during the Great Crusade or even earlier in the timeline. Games Workshop is now starting to exploit the sheer vastness of space and the length of their timeline to explain why things have been forgotten or lost to Mankind (STCs being another prime example) and, honestly, the only other way that GW could've written themselves out of this dead end was letting the Imperium find a functional STC system. Sadly that would've ended every war that Mankind fights practically overnight. Having the technological might of the first empire of humanity in their hands, combined with the sheer amount of bodies they can throw at problems, would make even the technological advantages of the Eldar and Necrons and the numerical advantages of Orks, Daemons and Tyranids utterly useless against a tooled up Humanity. I think the universe still has its Grimdark nature (The Cicatrix Maledictum still being a major problem for the now literally fractured Imperium) but now has the flexibility of lore and background to start adding new things in for the older races. Maybe Eldar start finding troves of older technology on lost Eldar colonies? Ork Waaaghs are growing big enough to develop more complex machines (like the Gravity weapons during the Beast Arises series)? Necrons are waking up more and more advanced constructs in order to put down organics. The Imperium can't innovate but can now start finding older and older technology that is far more powerful than anything they have now. I think the way they've done things is the best option without angering a wide expanse of the player/ collector base. This way they can still make new things, move the story along a bit but not have to throw out older model ranges unless they aren't making ANY money. I tip my hat to them for that instead of a hard reset like Age of Sigmar (though I'm starting to like that as well!) :)

See I like what the lore is doing, progression is absolutely what the game needed, it was really starting to stagnate and collapse itself really. However I'd say the quality of the lore is questionable at best. I do feel there's alot of "hardcore nostalgia" fans that just don't like change but I don't see that as an even remotely healthy approach. If we want the game we all love to continue the hobby HAS to attract new players which can't be done with a stagnant story line. Though who doesn't want to see their primarch return!

Civil War I hope for civil war if the classic astartes are "jettisoned" from the game. I firmly beleive that some of the classic astartes will rebel. When the Lion left behind his kin on Caliban they rebeled, firing on his fleet upon their return and ultimatly leading to his own and the planets downfall. A good example of a Loyal Chapter fighting amongst itself over rivalries. With the Ultramarines primarch returning only to replace his sons with secretly engineered primaris marines, one would think this would dampen the mood during the return of such a character. With primaris marines no doubt being written into the codex and forced upon other chapters, as well as Roboutte Guilliman taking on the duties of the high lords of terra... Well its logical to think many hatefull comments would be made towards the biggest change since the introduction of the codex its self.

I think that everyone is freaking out a little too early. Sure at the moment the primaris marines are described as INCORRUPTIBLE AND BIGGER BETTER marines, but that (within the lore) could just be propaganda for the empire. They could actually end up bolstering the chaotic forces later. I think its a great way to move forward.

Excellent video. The sort of intermingling/cross referencing between you, supersaiyan and the outer circle is kind of nice. I also saw their "cawl mary sue litmus test" video and was shocked at the result - the fact that GW just said screw it and whent ahead with the "cawl fixed it" type fluff out of sloth sets a real bad example for future fluff. I love the new primaris models (bought it all), enjoyed atleast mortarion of the new DG models - but yeah the lore is horrendous in 8th. I really wanted to make a 30k army for narrative play - but with 8th edition the entire HH playerbase in my area stopped and picked up 40k again. Such a shame. Really worried about the "7.1 edition" forgeworld is about to release also.

I've got to admit, the Primaris Marines have thrown a curve ball into the ideas I had for my own chapter. The fluff is so bad I almost want nothing to do with it; however, the Primaris Marine models are actually really nice, and since I would be pretty much collecting from scratch as a second army, I won't have any Midget Marines to work around. Of course, I've also considered collecting a 30k army, either Imperial Fists, or a contingent of Homo Rotundus high tech abhuman warrior-miners.

Good video Leaky, I agree with your points all round.

Cool vid. The only thing GW has done is change rules and limit the game to make you buy something new. Its all been a money grab. Several years ago I went back to the Rogue Trader and have enjoyed the game for years. I mix new models with old ones. It all looks great in play and its fun to actually use the terrain and strategy. In my opinion 40k has turned into a dice throwing fest. You pick up a ton of d6 and drop a ton of d6. Then move your army to the left. Pick up and drop again. Then move your army to the right. Yay. Not!

This has reinvigorated the Inquisition for me. I like the new “standard” Primarus models, but don’t like the fluff. So, I am convinced that it is heresy that has to be wiped out. Not at all in accord with the Emperors wishes and in need of cleansing flame. :)

Wait did GW actually coin the term "grim dark"?

Lies! Deceit! I need the cheese, fluff man. My supply is gone. Get to the old ones, the necrontyr history anything! I’m dying here shoot me up

I understand your point Cheese,... but let's look at this from just a business angle. If Games Workshop does try new things this hobby we all love and that you have build the most of your channel around, will die. As a business GW can not afford to not try and bring in new players. And with the launch of 8th, it did. The argument that GW is abandoning it's older fan base is ridiculous and more that a little pedantic. Around my own local store I have seen new faces playing and older men and women coming back to the hobby. 8th edition is a great thing for the hobby. Now you can say the story is weak for the primaris and blame it on cawl, but the 40k story has always been bonkers, grim dark or not. I am more that willing to give it a chance.

I think you think too much like GW :-) Does "Monopoly" or "Scrabble" became stagnant? Does it matter? GW preaches to the choir and the choir became bored. They tried to keep the choir entertained by wearing a funny hat that did not cut it. They should promote the hobby and find new clients rather than milking old, dying-out blokes like us.

I like the lore, I just think it needs to be fleshed out more.

I don't agree with OC's description of Cawl at all. (In fact, he hates everything so much I just wish he would leave) There are holes in the story if you only read the 8th Rulebook. The new novels that take place in the "Dark Imperium" era, are fleshing out all this stuff. It's not so much the Imperium innovating, but Guilliman and Cawl themselves, in fact, most of the Mechanicum is in turmoil because of this. Guilliman's refusal to appoint Cawl as the new Fabricator General speaks well to this. Long story short, read the newer novels, they flesh out the rough edges, for me at least.

I don't like the progression of the story at all. I don't like the look of the Primaris marines, their vehicles are okay though. The grimdark setting is one of the strongest things that makes 40k 40k. Without it I'm not sure what this is turning into. I love the 8th edition rules though, they're great in my opinion. I hope they don't remove the normal Space Marines, if they do, I'm not sure I will still be into 40k. It would make it feel like they're slowly but surely taking every little thing I love about 40k away. In my opinion Guilliman is a usurper to the throne of the Imperium and Caul is a heretic for changing the Emperors work in order to try to improve it. I would like to see them being branded as heretics and then maybe be like their own faction outside of the Imperium. Also developing new technologies is strongly against the will of the Omnisiah and thus I don't know why the Adeptus Mechanicus haven't branded Caul a heretic yet either.

Nice video. They kinda fixed the Tau though. They became ruthless under the surface and nor as unified as originally defined. The 11th hour "Grim Dark" shouldn't have touched. The Primaris mini's are fine... But the fluff really seems like a kick in the face. They could have done it a better way. But then I wasn't a fan of the AoS fluff changes (but agree they needed to freshen up the rule set).

What if Belisarius Cawl is one of the two missing primarchs? I'm personally trying to justify his brilliance over the emperor.

You are wrong about one thing. They do care about it's older fans... They don't want to appeal to newer fans... They NEED to appeal to newer fans. It's not about screwing older fans, it's about keeping the game alive.