Gun Gripes  

308 barrels will last longer than a Creedmoor barrel. Sure, it still takes a healthy number of rounds to degrade the barrel but I selected 308 as my personal standard caliber (reloading and buying) for ALL my rifles with consideration for SHTF. A 308 weapon will outlast a Creedmoor in "sparse" repair and rebarrel situations. I have piles of 308 bullets and brass and powder. I use them in my battle rifle, my precision rifle, and can use the same bullets in 300blk. I like to keep things simple and as inexpensive as possible. I can get out to 1100 yds with my 308 and that is fine for my purposes and it hits hard at shorter ranges.

totally. i bought a 6.5 and wish i bought a 308 because of availability.

I agree

@@BooDamnHoo I've thought of the same thing since I only own a 300blk AR. If I wanted to also reload for longer range, 308 would probably be a good pair.

@@stareagle5000 Ha! We've all been there. Reminds me of that meme about Walmart not selling 357mm ammo anymore.

he's probably partially deaf from his time as a ZOGbot

It's because people shoot 6.5 a lot.

When I go to Scheels everybody is buying 6.5 creedmoor they always feel stupid once there's no ammo to buy with the gun 😂

@@danielpope3579 not where I live

I’ve seen 6.5 creedmoor for sale everywhere. Given not in huge quantity but it’s out there.

That's because the ammo manufacturers prioritized the NATO rounds before everything else in order to keep shelves stocked and prices down

Yep!

The 308 win. is a lot cheeper to shoot and I don't have a problem hitting 700 yards all day long.

And that is the best possible point that can be made

The yuppie newbie enthusiasts, who as a group (doesn't matter what sport/activity) will always over-spend on the "latest & greatest", are just a momentary fad in firearms. They will go the way of the Betamax, and might be a good source of 2d hand gear in a few years. Creedmoor will continue to be used by regular wind-buckers, and competitors working the bleeding edge of current technology... wildcatters will promote new "hot round" candidates that competitors will try and, maybe, use for more than a season.

@@seanoneil277 Yep. Pick up a good 2nd hand piece and rebarrel in a sensible cal.

@@willybober2 hey at least the name checks out

3 times the cost with less powder, less lead, less copper and less brass. As long as people keep worshiping 6.5 CM as "the best there will ever be", the ammo prices will continue be astronomical.

@danielkreher7066 typically not the scenario, but hey, it's possible.

308 will be around for along time thats like saying 30-30 is dead every one i know has a 30-30 and 308

308 will never die.

You shouldn't base somethings relevance on your own bias. lol

I can agree

But I agree... My DB10 has me hooked.

Absolutely, agree. It's the same issue with .224 Valkyrie unless you live in 🏜️. Average being the SHTH moment you will find 308, 30'06, 5.56, 223.... Not Grendel or 6.8SPC II, 6mm PRC. Alternatively.. 350 Legend I see more of as it gains in that 200yrd range

I agree New England New Hampshire,a long deer shot is 150 yards,the lumber is thick up north,maybe in Texas

@@MichaelRoachDavid You may be surprised how many 6.8s are used in the thick stuff. It wasn't designed for use at range--inside of 350, with a compact rifle. It might be the best cartridge choice, for the AR platform, for hunting New England.

@@MichaelRoachDavid That's why you stack your primary ammo deep. I've become a Grendel guy and have a decent supply, but I still keep 5.56 and 223 stocked as well. My 12" Grendel is my primary PD and hunting gun (Georgia) and its worked out to as far as 200 yards (capable of quite more, just haven't had the opportunity). Most people mistakenly think that just because the Grendel performs well at long range that it isn't good out of a short barrel. I do also have longer barrels of course....

Agreed. And even in places where you can see for miles around (like Colorado), can you truly positively identify your target well enough at 1000yds to justify shooting?

Exactly. East of the Mississippi I’m not sure (excepting farmer’s fields) I can see over 150 yards in the woods, let alone have an unobstructed shot! 6.5 is better at 800-1,000 yards but here in the East, that’s not a realistic shot so .308 it is! (And you’re right, it does punch a bigger hole too)

308 is good Out to a thousand yards. 600 yd and less is more realistic for hunting purposes and there is really no advantage to a 65 Creedmoor over a 308 at those ranges. 600 yards is a long shot. Many people believe the 6.5 Creedmoor is Magic and is magically more accurate than a 308. That is called religious worship of a cartridge.

Yeah it is my favorite too. I am not hunting but i am shooting on the range and i do not shoot on ranges that i would need 6.5, so why should i buy a rifle with a much more expensive caliber and it is not as available as 308. So it does not make any sense for me and i just like 308. The only bigger rounds i fire are 8x57IS because of my Kar98 and 45-120 in my sharps. Everything else is under 308 or 308 if it comes to rifles. I am just not shooting on 1000yards so why should i buy it. I mean yeah if someone like it why not, but allot of people that i know has rifles in 6.5cm and shoot it on 200-300 yards wich i don't really get.

7.62 being a nato round and (240B) machine gun still in use, there will always be surplus to maintain a good price. If SHTF, it’s a nato (international) round. 6.5 creedmore I don’t think you can find it in Mexico let alone any further. The hype of 6.5 cm will wear off soon.

same here

I'm not too worried about a guy 1000 yards away I get a lil concerned within 300yrds though

@@joshjohnston2986 I have zero day to day concern. I don't live in a war zone.

@@eric1138 not yet but ya never know when it's gonna pop off

@@joshjohnston2986 Smacks of a poorly hidden glee, a fetish, in favor of a horrific event.

👍👍

Why is it insane? In the Marines we shoot standard rifle qualification to 500 yards and our snipers train to 1000. It's not that hard.

@@davidcruz8667 While not insane, difficult would be a better word. Comparing the ability of maybe 200,000 USMC personnel to over 300 million Average Joe/Jane’s is a bit of a joke. The Marines have had a long time to get the formula right for teaching people how to shoot a fair ways on a one way shooting range. And out of all those Marines, how many are snipers? Not very many, and I frankly doubt the average Marine that’s qualified to 500 yards is going to suddenly be able to pick up a different rifle altogether and start immediately putting hits on target at twice that distance.

@@Verdha603 perhaps, but the Marine Corps has refined training so that it's simple and you apply the tried and true fundamentals of marksmanship to any weapon, especially the stability provided by rifles. If you apply this and shoot consistently well to 500 yards, you can do it to 1000, no problem. This is information and practices that can be used by anybody, civilians and military alike. A good old battle rifle like the M14 and M1A variants has no trouble to 1000 yards, and it's even more consistent with a good bolt action rifle such as the M40/Remington 700, or any good quality hunting rifle. How many snipers? We don't need many, this MOS is an enhancement and a supplement to the battle field, for obvious reasons the bulk of the fighting is performed by regular infantry. I was one, my mission was not to be part of a combined arms wall of fire, but rather to engage specific targets of opportunity mostly in an overwatch capacity to minimize surprises and enhance the safety of the troop element in general, as well as observational intelligence that helps commanders shape the battlefield to our advantage as much as possible. Indeed, within the ranks of the entire Marine Corps we are highly competitive with each other, we'd rather show up to the Marine Ball wearing an Expert badge instead of a Marksman badge, but we all use the same techniques and procedures. You'd be surprised what you can accomplish once you discard any bad habits, assumptions, and self-doubt you might have brought with you to marksmanship training from your previous life. Most Marines will tell you that once it clicks, which is pretty fast, it's actually a lot easier than it seems.

@@davidcruz8667 You can teach someone the fundamentals properly, but I place a great deal of doubt that you can jump from 500 to 1000 yards with no problems, especially when you have to take into consideration that rounds drop significantly more past 500 yards. Other questions worth considering are what equipment are you using; is the rifle itself accurate enough to consistently put rounds on a target at that distance (ie I doubt you’ll be able to make a 1,000 yard shooter out of someone using a Kalashnikov), is the ammunition of good enough quality to provide that same consistency (ie the difference between regular ball ammo and match ammo), can the optic reach that far (because if you look at your basic hunting rifle scope a majority of them do not even come with BDC’s in the scope, nor do many hunters even keep track of their rifles dope past 300-400 yards). The shooter can be a competent shot that knows what their doing and still fall short because they didn’t bring the right equipment for the task at hand. To use just one of your examples, the M14/M1A can feasibly make it out to 1,000 yards, but chances are slim you’ll be using a bog standard rifle off the rack with M80 ball; your more likely to be handing them a National Match rifle with a bedded stock, target sights, if not some sort of optic, and M118 Match ammo to achieve the desired result, especially if your goal is to get rounds on target from 600-1000 yards. Like I said, I don’t consider that kind of shooting impossible, but neither would I consider it something easy that comes to everyone quickly and with little effort involved.

@@Verdha603 OK, fair enough. Yes, a standard AK is not a good choice, nor was it intended for this purpose. And I myself own both a National Match Springfield M1A and a standard M1A, both fitted with optics, of course, but I did address some of the issues that improve on longer distance accuracy, such as a National Match recoil spring guide for the standard M1A and unitizing the gas block assembly with the tap and drill method. As for bedding, it does make for tighter groups with consistent alignment of the receiver action with the stock while cycling through barrel harmonics, and taking into account that the M1A's design affects the point of impact as the weapon heats up. But I have no problems with target engagement at 1000 yards, I know the rifle and what it can do and I adjust accordingly. As for iron sights, they are fine up to about 650 yards, and you use the same procedures wether your using iron sights or an optic. Also, using a scope doesn't require a whole lot of magnification, it simply enables you to keep a tighter sight picture for distance shooting. You can start with 4X just fine, and any additional magnification is just icing on the cake, at the expense of a narrower field of view and increased perceived shaking. And yes, once you understand what enables you to hit the bullseye at 500 yards, any distance within the limitations of the ammunition doesn't make any difference. 500 or 1000, it's the same principle. As for BDC, you shouldn't rely on it too much, the feel of bullet drop effects as range increases is a matter of practice, not a graphic on your reticle. We use MilDot reticles, no stadia lines, numbers, or anything else, just a crosshair with dot markings, used to calculate range to target and point-of-impact adjustments, very quick and simple. I am indeed saying that you can be a proficient shot with one type of rifle and be able to pick up any other rifle and use it just as well. But of course you must be aware of what is different from one to the other so you can factor it in once you start shooting and get used to it. I have no problem going from my Remington 700 and borrowing somebody else's rifle on the range and hitting the target properly almost immediately. As long as the rifle is capable, and we are shooting at "normal" distances from 200 to 600 yards, there's no difference. Of course, every rifle owner zeros their rifle to themselves, as long as you know this you can compensate for differences in individual eye focal quality and sight pictures. One of the best things about these distances is that you can engage them with iron sights just fine, regardless of the weapon. Oh, and by the way, we learn to shoot with regular ball ammunition so we're not relying on specialized match loads to accomplish the mission. They're nice to have, but logistics can do a lot of different things to what's available, so that is one of the lowest items on our list of priorities unless you need to accomplish a one-shot kill specifically designated before any shooting starts. That's when every little detail counts, which most people won't ever have to deal with.

The 300 Win Mag, if one can handle the recoil, can duplicate 6.5 cartridges and put much more energy on target. And you will be much less likely to run out of .30 cal bullets for it.

Very smart reloader!

But.....is that what you were aiming at

Karl Friedrich Hieronymus Freiherr von Münchhausen

Everybody and their brother runs 6.5 now. It's not just a rise, it's a household name now.

@Shop Rat #92 dasher, gt, br

@Shop Rat #92 6mmGT is the bleeding edge and likely the most efficient .243 diameter cartridge ever. 6Dasher is popular but it's also going away because it's too short to feed reliably from AICS mags. 6mm Creedmoor is also present on the scene, but GT has better accuracy nodes and burns less powder, with identical speeds.

.45 acp will bever die either, but it's far from the most popular round out there. The same will happen to 308 sooner or later. The US military is looking to either the 6.8 ( .270 cal ) round or the 6.5 cm for their next gen light machine gun. To be determined which right now. 6 months from now my guess is we'll know what's happening with that.

​@@brahtrumpwonbigly7309 Very very few calibers are actually "household names" outside of the dedicated gun circles whose interests you're projecting onto everybody. 9mm, 5.56, .308, .45ACP, .44 Magnum (because movies), 12 gauge, MAYBE .38 Special, and MAYBE .50 BMG are the only ones I'd wager a random person asked on the street will have heard of.

Right when I started shooting 6.5 I could shoot American gunner for about 60-68 cent a round now fmj is over 2 bucks a shot

Your argument contradicts your point because of supply/demand behavior. If it’s easy to find(.308 ammo I mean- edit) one could say the supply outweighs demand. And .30-06 would be the high demand, low supply that is seeing lots of usage

Impossible to make wide sweeping statements with any credible certainty. There's about a hundred factors driving demand and availability. Both the 308 and 30-06 have been military cartridges so supply and surplus for both will be a bonus in a lot of cases. But, NATO ammo won't be the most optimal bullets or powders for hunting performance or gun cleanliness, for example.

It's my favorite for target shooting at distances to 500 yards and beyond. I have hit man sized targets as far away as 700 yards with an M-14, off hand with iron sights and a scope.

Out to medium distance, it's a bigger hole and a harder hit. Beyond that the sleeker high BC lose a lot less energy and movement to wind drag.

have both!

.243 is a .308 necked to 6mm, whereas the 6CM and 6.5CM are both .308s necked down, shoulders and casings blown out, so the .243 would be much more comparable to the 6CM.

@@Korruptor Creed was a necked down 30 TC.

Jason Wickersham And the 30TC is merely a shoulder-bumped (0.047”) and re-angled, casing blown out (by a mere 0.010”) .308 WIN. The 30TC was never produced in quantity, but there is plenty of .308 to bump, neck, and fire-form.

I can closely duplicate the advantages of the 6.5 cartridges with an accurized 1903A1 when using 200 grainers. .30-06 is the third most popular cartridge and I can use the components from .308 Win. However, .308 is now king. I will save my 6.5x55 for longer shoots and windy conditions. It's hard to beat the old Swede.

I have the same rifle. It’s going to be my “hog smasher.”

@@jefferydebbink282 Awesome. I absolutely love mine

Few people even know that .30 TC came between .308 and 6.5 CM.

The military is actually starting to use 6.5 CM. They have bolt guns, AR10s and even some 240s chambered in it. And the modification doesn't require a change to any of the guns other than a new barrel.

The U.S. Army is now using 6.5CM in special applications. Sweden started using 6.5x55 back in 1894. The 6.5CM is only a slight improvement in terms of a slightly flatter trajectory, but a big improvement in terms of rifles available in a 6.5 cartridge. I would have both a 6.5 and a .308.

Aren’t those calibers banned in the UK? Or are they property of the rifle range?

@@Aeroshogun No no calibres are banned in the UK, can own up to 50bmg. It's a weird misconception that goes around the US we have to store guns at a club which is not true, we just have to have them in a locked metal cabinet at home bolted to a wall 👍

@@callum9570 alright, thank you for clarifying sir.

Buy in

Cool thanks for letting me use your car

It's why .380 pocket pistols are still a thing, guns and calibres have changed over the last century but people haven't changed at all.

@@agentoranj5858 hum no 9mm is more popular than.380 and .308 is the most versatile rifle cartridge on the planet it kill out to 1000 meters effectively but realistically it’s more of a 600 meter cartridge

right.. why not just have both.. thats the conclusion i came to.

Yep. If you can afford the gunsmithing/have access to a gunsmith it is better otherwise not so.

@@wsollers1 what’s a gunsmith have to do with anything?

@@Holledel no barrels are chambered in the faster twist rates for .260. You need a gunsmith to do a custom chamber on a barrel blank to get the performance of a creedmoor off the shelf.

@@wsollers1 my 260 is a 1/8 and I’m shooting .30” groups with 147eld-m. Factory Remington 5r

@@Holledel that's because rem updated the twist rate from 1:9 (saami spec) to 1:8. at 1:8 thier basically on par with 6.5 creedmoor

@@raw7s784 could be, all I can say is that i get asked for big bore Henry's and stainless Marlins with the grey laminate stock multiple times daily. I do sale guns in Wyoming tho so that could have something to do with it

Also the increasing amount of unconstitutional states that are trying to ban any gun with a removable magazine has brought the lever action into strong contention again.

Hard to sell guns when ammo doesn’t exist. If I were buying a rifle today, i might get a 6,8 Western since ammo is always available it seems.

Ammo is available here as well

Now that the craze is over, it is time to buy a 6.5, but only after you have a one in .308.

Its not a wash in hunting 308 all day

He just showed a chart with energy at different ranges, it holds energy for far longer so your comment is not true at all, what seems to be the issue is people taking to large of game at way to long of distances.

@@fatdan172501 Yeah I can pick and choose data too. If you go to the federal website and pull up their ballistic calculator, compare the factory loads "Non typical" soft point with 140 grain for 6.5 CM, and 180 Gr for 308 Win. Same ammo line, same bullet, max bullet weight for both loadings. Now, what is debatable is what one considers the minimum energy at any given range. I define that at or around 1200 Ft pounds.. I realize that Whitetale is all the rage back east, but out West it's all about Elk. - A 140 gr 6.5 CM at 400 yards is at 1225 pounds of energy, with a 12.9 " drop with a 300 yard zero. - A 180 Gr 308 Win at 400 yards is at 1200 pounds of energy with a 16.2" drop with a 300 yard zero. Like I said, the 6.5 CM starts loosing steam around the same range a 308 starts dropping hard. There really isn't much of an advantage to the 6.5 CM in the context of hunting big game. (Long range target shooting is ENTIRELY different. I'd go 6.5 CM all day) People shooting too far with the 6.5 CM while hunting is just another way of saying the same thing I did, just nicer. I realize that 6.5 CM has a HUGE almost cult like following. I'm far too practical for that when you consider ammo availability as well. Iv'e seen guys saying they haven't been able to buy 6.5 CM off the shelves in months. Meanwhile I'm up to my eyeballs in 308 in both hunting ammo, and range ammo.

@@MiddleOutdoorsman again, you’re comparing the extremes of the spectrum and talking about game that probably shouldn’t be shot with it.

your better off with a 243 or 270 for hunting

have both.

No one should be trying to shoot an animal at 1,000yds+ imo

Your absolutely right. They keep trying to reinvent the wheel. The Swede is the same ballistics as the Creed.

It's because the 6.5x55 isn't a catchy name, it's a military name. It isn't good for marketing here unfortunately.

It’s not about marketing. It’s about taking a cartridge and perfecting it. The 6.5-55 is a long action, not a short action. The twist rates for those barrels suck due to the technology of the time. Those 6,5 bullets were not nearly as long. 6.5 creed wasn’t a wild cat cartridge, it was designed from the ground up. People either love it or hate it.

@@Freakingstang all true, but i already have 6.5 x 55 brass, projectiles and loading dies so to get 6.5 Creednore performance i just traded my old sporterised Swedish mauser for a modern Sauer and now i can load to equal 6.5 Creedmore.

@@jeremymead8546 I have both - in gas and bolt guns. 6.5x55 is an oldie but a goodie.

How can a caliber be inferior or superior? It's just a different diameter. The cartridges make the difference. The pressure and powder it can take and how long and sleek projectiles it can take.

@@UserAccountID My point exactly

6.5x55 is much cheaper than 6.5CM that is pretty much just a modern copy of 6.5x55. But it is easier to find a rifle in 6.5CM. The first bolt rifle to own is .308 however.

I think I’ll start worrying when 308 is no longer being manufactured and now you have to rely on surplus.

@@myusername3689 That's a problem for your grandchildren.

I would have both. It is not as good if you can not hit as well as one can with a 6.5. It is much quicker and easier to become proficient with 6.5. It is hard to find range time and opportunity for extended ranges. I prefer 6.5x55 as it is a better practical choice.

That might be the best argument for 308. You can buy "affordable" 308 ammo. Get plenty to practice with, buy the cheap steel cased 308 to practice with your 308 pistol (like a Galil in .308 that feeds everything I have ever fed through it!).. and it's accurate to just under MOA at 300 with irons! ... just make sure you keep that ear pro close cause it's a beast!!!

Hey, just sayin'... you can get that M1A rebarreled in 6.5 CM, too, if you like......

Lol i think 30-30 might actually be close. Not many people shooting it anymore and i'm guessing once the baby boomer generation dies off it will probably drop into the realm of 7.7x58, 7.35 carcano, etc. Once a year run for both loaded and brass and prices will be through the roof.

@@jontee3437 lots of people still harvest deer with 30-30 every year. You can just go look up Federal and Remington sales you might be surprised.

@@chrisalbrecht2894 I actually hope I'm wrong about 30-30 honestly. I personally want to it stay around.

@@jontee3437 People don't talk about .30-30. They simply use .30-30. It is still extremely popular, it's not the slouch people think it is. Hornady and Buffalo Bore have both made it extend 100 yards more than it used to, as well take game up to and including Alaskan moose. It will slap through armor plate at closer range, it kills deer handily, it would smoke a 2-legged predator without question, it has mild recoil, it functions very well in platforms it was designed for. After over 127 years of being around, it's going nowhere. Projectiles are .308 caliber and the brass shares itself with .38-55, .219 Zipper, .25-35, and some wildcats.

.308 is better than 30-06 it makes no sense using 30-06 when you can get .308 for cheaper and it’s way more common to find

@ Greg Mattson - Those are intelligent questions and comments, if you don't mind my saying so. The .308 isn't as high pressure a cartridge as the 6.5 CM, nor as overbore, so .308 barrels tend to last longer without needing replacement. The .308 hangs with or even bests the 6.5 CM in terms of ballistic performance and KE out to maybe 400 yards. If you rarely take a shot at game beyond that distance, then you probably don't need a rifle/cartridge combo capable of such a shot. And you are correct that a 300 Win-Mag could easily handle something like that. Far as military use is concerned, the Army segments their precision-sniping weapons into "light," medium" and "heavy" categories. The .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO and lighter are considered "light," with anything falling between it and the .50BMG being considered "medium" caliber, and the big 50 as "heavy." That means a 300 Win-Mag or 338 Lapua Magnum rifle would slot into the medium category. Most .308 loads used by the Army and Marine Corps are out of gas by 1100 yards/1000 meters or so, perhaps slightly quicker depending on conditions. The 300 WM can get you out to 1500 meters using the right load, with the 338 even further than that. The fifty is mostly used for hard-target interdiction but also certain specialized urban combat situations, by the Corps and the Army both. The main selling point for 6.5 CM - and one reason why certain special ops personnel are using it - is that it offers long-range performance on par with 300 WM, i.e.,supersonic out to 1500 yards, but without the heavy recoil of the big magnum. 6.5mm (.264-cal.) projectiles are extremely efficient and slippery, and perform well in the wind in comparison to many lighter .308 loads. That said, the 6.5mm cannot compare with something like 300 WM for throw-weight of its projectile. The .264-cal. bullets top out around 150-grains, whereas .308-caliber bullets reach the mid-200 grain weight, 220-grains or even more. That means when it arrives, the bigger .30-cal. slug has more punch and inflicts more terminal damage, which is a consideration for military or LE use. However, back in favor of the 6.5 CM, it adapts well to rifles which already shoot .308 Win./7.62 NATO, and since it is a short-action cartridge, the rifle can be lighter than a magnum-type rifle in 300 WM or 338 LM. Therefore, easier to carry and easier to carry more ammo in the field. But no doubt, the 300 WM is a very capable caliber. The late Navy SEAL Chief Chris Kyle certainly thought so, as he used a 300 WM for most of his work in Iraq. And it has been a favorite of elk hunters out West for many years, so hunters like it a lot, too. It also works well as bear medicine if that is your interest. I'd call it overkill for something like white-tail, but some disagree.

Because if you can afford to shoot out a barrel you can afford to replace it lol. For general purpose it’s not worth it, but there is a reason race cars take more maintenance, because they are tailored for a specific task. 800 and under 308 is still a extremely viable choice, if you NEED to push further, there is better choices, it’s that simple.

Lol 150 pmc is my shit i use fmj though

this guy garandes

@@covert0overt_810 from what I hear, a hot 30-06 preforms in the low 300win mag territory

Now, after watching the entire video and seeing the focus being around long range target shooting, the CM is a great round. No doubt. However, if I am building a long range rifle what in the wide, wide world of sports does the CM do that the 260 Remington or Swede doesn’t? Nothing. I am a pro Hornady guy and use their reloading components so good for them on the hype they created and they delivered excitement in the shooting world. Which, unless you rely on store bought 6.5 CM ammo, it is a good thing.

@@MarcosCaminante The 308 is not just for longer ranges. It also serves as a light anti-material rifle at close and medium ranges.

@@MarcosCaminante "However, if I am building a long range rifle what in the wide, wide world of sports does the CM do that the 260 Remington or Swede doesn’t? Nothing." Let's see, if I go to the nearest outdoor retailer, I can for sure find a rifle in 6.5 Creed. Can't say the same for the Swede or the .260. The Swede is long-action as well. On paper, sure, both of those alternatives are great but for the vast majority of people, 6.5 CM is the way to go in that class of cartridges.

@ Patrick C. - There's absolutely nothing wrong with .284, or for that matter, anything magical about 6.5 CM. Many PRS competitors have moved on from it, either to 6mm offerings or maybe 6.5 PRC, the newer .264-cal. cartridge which offers MVs 200 fps faster than the 6.5 CM, without beating you up too badly with recoil. Heck, going back further, there's nothing wrong with 284 Win-Mag or 260 Remington or 6.5x55/Swedish Mauser, or for that matter, 270 Winchester, all of which do some/all of what the 6.5 CM can do.

I'll stick with the vintage 6.5x55 for long range targets. 7mm is a better hunting round and has a better balance of high BC with higher energy on targets, but recoil is an issue. Heck, my antique 7mm Mauser keeps up with 7.62 Natio and it was made in 1894, but my vintage 6.5x55 is the best balance of attributes for punching paper. If you can handle the recoil, then I would agree that the .284 is a better choice.

@@tunnelrabbit2625 I have more mass to me than I should so the recoil doesn't seem to be a issue to me, not even when I shoot my M1 Garand. I haven't hunted in years. Knees won't allow me to wonder around in the hills any more. But love competition and for that matter any shooting.

@@tunnelrabbit2625 - The 7mm (.284-cal.) cartridges are great, and have many of the same attributes as the lighter 6.5's do. What's not to like?

@@GeorgiaBoy1961 Recoil and the fact that 6.5x55 is used in the outstanding Swedish Mausers I buy cheap that will do the same job will less powder, less bullet and recoil and have longer barrel and brass life. If none of that mattered, then I would use a 7mm Wetherby Mag.

Just an FYI, 4451 was discontinued along with the rest of the “enduron” line

If you ever get your hands on H4350 try this: 140Gr Berger VLD Hybrid Lapua brass CCI BR4 H4350 42.8 Gr COAL 2.855” Average Vel. 2830ft/s Veeeeeeery accurate load. Almost identical results in RPR Gen2 and Tikka T3 Tactical. Also try same components but using Hornady ELD-X 143Gr The best results are between 42.5Gr to 42.8Gr. Now here’s the key detail, use the same seating depth you used for Berger VLD Hybrids (2.855”). Ogive is different so naturally COAL is going to be different as well. This allows you to switch between target load and a hunting load without making any adjustments

Yes sir!

most people dont walk 500 yards in the woods

@@lukethomas3296 agree. In the woods 308, 30-30, 7mm-08, 7.62x39, and 300BLK are tops.

@@lukethomas3296 .308 is good out to 600 meters actually

The problem with .308 isn't necessary the caliber of the bullets, .308 inches, but of the rifles shooting it. The respected ballistics expert and owner of Applied Ballistics, Bryan Litz, who is also a seasoned LR competitor, has written about it, in fact. For decades, riflemen have been limited to .308-cal. bullets of 180-grains or less, when in reality, current cutting-edge tech is now proving that the caliber is greatly-underappreciated in bullets of 220-grains and above. Those lackluster BC values of lighter .308-cal. bullets become better as weights approach 190 grains, and then really become juicy above 200 grains. You probably need a long-action or even a magnum case (or one of those new short magnum designs) to utilize such heavy fare, but with enough propellant and a suitable twist rate barrel, those high BCs can be yours for the taking. Hornady's new 225-grain A-Tip Match - which if memory serves requires a 1:8 twist or faster to use - has a G1 BC of over .700, which is stupendous. The dilemma for enjoying a greater range of modern bullet designs and weights in .308 is that many legacy-designs of hunting rifles aren't set up to utilize them well. Either the overall internal magazine length is too short, the throat and chamber are too tight, or the barrel twist isn't fast enough. A 1:10 RHT - which is what a typical 30-06 or 300 WM has - gets you up to 220 grains OK, but past that, you'll need a faster twist. Same goes for certain unorthodox bullet designs, such as certain designs by Barnes. On the other hand, if you don't need any of these specialized uses, then your basic vanilla .308 is probably gonna work just fine. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I'll use a .30-06 to duplicate 6.5 performance. The debate between .30-06 verses .308 is long over when 175 to 208 grain ELD bullets are used in the . 3006. That said, the first rifle to have is a .308 because ammo for it is everywhere.

@@tunnelrabbit2625 - You're absolutely correct. My take is that at lighter bullet weights, the .308 will do much of what the larger 30-06 will do, but once you need that extra 150-200 fps of velocity or want to move into the heavier .308 offerings, then the '06 pulls away. Regarding duplication of 6.5 performance with 30-06, it can also be done with 270 Winchester. It is possible to load a 130 grain pill in .308 with ballistics virtually identical to those of an equivalent load in 270, yet use it out of a 30-06 rifle. While the 270 projectile might be a tad more aerodynamic, out to 400 yards, that deer isn't going to know the difference, and neither are you. People claim that .308 is more-accurate than 30-06, but one of the most-accurate rifles I have ever seen was a 30-06. Put 100-yard shots through the same hole with boring regularity.

@@GeorgiaBoy1961 The advantage goes to the .30-06 because it shoots common.308 bullets and can handle heavy 175 to 220 grainer s with it's extra poweder capcity and 10:1 barrel twist verses 12:1 for the .308 Win barrels. These very heavy bullets that buck the wind as well as 140 Plus grainer 6.5 projectiles. The .270 (.277) is basically a 7mm, but it cannot use .(284) 7 mm, 160 to 175 grain bullets that are the equal to heavy 6.5 bullet in terms of BC. It is excellent, but limited bullet selection and availability exclude it in the race to match 6.5 cartridges used for long range targets. Bucking the wind and have long bearing surfaces of high BC bullets that tend to be more accurate is what we want, and the .30-06 comes close. .300 Win Mag can do better than 6.5 cartridges, b ut at the cost of excessive recoil. The game has been changed in the last decade with the advent of new precision manufacturing and CAD that produces affordable precision rifle, and factory match grade ammunition for those rifles. This is why 6.5 CM blasted off., As an old handloader, I can make low tech rifles as accurate, but not my much.. The lowest cost and most sensible would be a Savage 110 or Mossberg Patriot in .308 Win using Federal Match ammo and then a 6.5CM.