@@RyanLeach hey, you weren't at Berklee around 2012-16 by any chance eh? Lile when George Clinton was still there? I went there & was in the first SSP film scoring sessions program etc. Feel like your name rings a hellofa bell.
Im a clarinetist and i played Hedwig theme, the final part of this piece is sick. Thouse arpeggios are not very comfortable and occasionaly changing harmony makes it harder to play. But not all music is meant to be easy. This is amazing piece.
I am also a clarinetist that has also performed this piece. I cold heartedly agree, the arpeggios are so weird. Especially running up and down the clarinet like that is a bit difficult at that kind of speed. But, I would 100% relearn and perform this piece any day again!
@@RyanLeach I think I write better for instruments I don't play, because I'm just thinking about how it sounds, and not how difficult it would be to play. I often have to remind myself to not let my composing be limited by my skill level as a musician.
There it goes! a full orchestration semester in less than 20 minutes haha very well put Ryan. I like to think that the woodwinds doubling other sections give respectively: More attack definition to the strings section; And adds character to the brass.
They are like the third of the chord to the brass, and the first of two octaves higher on the chord of the strings, in relative. I've been listening to lots of symphonies lately and it's actually flattering to see that winds are so active (for I play the flute), they can work very well with other sections while they are running, as well as getting solos here and there for first flutes and clarinets for example.
As an oboe/wind player. When tuplets of multiples other than 4s or 3s occur we actually do practice those with thinking about making thwm even, this usually means we slow things way down and work them up. Also as a note, your tuplets will often not sound as clean as they do on a midi so use them sparingly. You forgot one other function of winds, as soloist in the orcheatra...
Not forgotten, the focus was on how they're used in this specific cue and he doesn't use a wind solo. Sorry for discrediting the effort to play clean multiples!
I play trumpet but I second the note about practising tuplets accurately. As a composer I would avoid them whenever something with a regular metric could achieve a similar effect.
@@scladoffle2472 No one here got offended, just a friendly correction. We're here to learn and share ideas, not put others down, as you seem so keen on doing.
5:08 As a clarinetist, I can confidently say that that arpeggio is not effortless at that speed (in either octave). There’s lots of right/left hand coordination in that arpeggio as well as going over the break (B natural in the middle of the staff).
As an additional clarinetist, I can remember the hours spent in sectionals figuring out and practicing the best way to play arpeggios and then speeding it all up. Arpeggios are our bread and butter but wow they take time and practice!
Since we got a couple clarinetists here... Hi, hello, I am also a clarinetist that performed this piece. This section, and ending, was a pain haha. But, would relearn and perform it again in a heartbeat.
I’m a strings player, but sometimes arrange stuff for intermediate wind ensembles. I’ve been tempted to write passages like this for them, as they do soooo much to lift the music. Am now very happy that I’ve refrained.
There are so many of these videos that I have watched 4 or 5 times over the last few years because I come back and reference them every time I’m struggling with a composition problem. You’re not just creating content to consume once, you’re creating a whole composition handbook in video form!
This is so strange. I was raised with Wind Orchestra rather than string orchestra so writing for winds just comes naturally to me. On the other hand, I struggle immensely with strings😂
Ha yea that's probably true for a lot of wind players but most people I know find strings a lot easier. Especially people who may not play a violin or cello but are at least comfortable with a guitar!
Our wedding had a solo oboist along with a single vocalist; it was so moving I am pretty sure there wasn't a dry eye in the church. I also was a part of a 16 member chamber choir that was accompanied by some very minimalist oboe; at certain times the vocal harmony would split 16 different ways and at the same moment the oboe and choir would crescendo at the same moment, and it was pure magic. I think that the woodwinds, especially the oboe and bassoon are some of the most beautiful and moving sounds that exist in music. Mad props to anyone who can play an oboe-- I tried a couple of times and could barely get any sound out of it, let alone a _pleasing_ sound...lol. The double reed on oboe makes it very difficult.
I would say, if truly mastered and with the finest instruments (especially Guarneri del Gesu), the violin is the most beautiful instrument besides the human voice (without excessive vibrato please!). But the woodwinds add a lot of color and character, woodwind solos play a very important role for variation in character in orchestral pieces.
as an oboist i always get a burst of self confidence whenever i see comments like this talking about how difficult the oboe is 😅😅 a very frustrating journey to learn this instrument but when you can play it... its really beautiful woodwinds are just my favourite family- each instrument has such annindividual character and timbre i'll agree that violin is pretty beautiful when played right, although choosing a "most beautiful" instrument is pretty much impossible in my eyes
@@danielf1066I'm an oboist too, I feel like it's so rarely talked about how difficult it is too play, especially compared to an instrument like the flute, just because our music is similar obviously lower however- but the double red adds so much complexity to the instrument that if you have a bad reed, you create a worse sounding sound
I watched the video because as a bassoon player, the title had me saying DUH! I was thinking about the fun/challenge of playing this piece as a woodwind player. I found the analysis fascinating. As for the hidden color aspect, I so hear that. I often play in concert bands and in either an orchestra OR concert band, its amazing what parts a good composer has a bassoon playing along with. A bad composer/arranger will give me a just tuba part. Good ones have me playing with everybody at some point and a good bassoon player can blend amazingly well with any concert/orchestra instrument. From a concert band perspective, I heard a saying once that you won't really notice a bassoon in a concert band but you will notice it MISSING. Pretty sure they were talking about that hidden color.
You might appreciate the story my wife just told me, her friend's kid watched the video and afterward said "What!? There's a babboon in the orchestra?!"
@@RyanLeach and I’m, as many, all for it! I love his “thick” textures, as they’re not dull but balanced, deeply dialoguing and dramatic or cheery. And your nutshell, no-frills analysis explaining why, fills a gap and I needed it. Thank you! P.S.Near the coda in Hedwig’s theme there appears a so-thick texture in the high registers in the last restatement that always fills me with awe both the product and his genius. Analogously, it’s like watching a well-balanced mural layered with see-through images.
I love John Williams, but it does slightly annoy me that no one ever seems to mention the orchestrator/s involved. John's music is great, but a lot of the orchestral awesomeness is at least partly the work of the orchestrators he works closely with.
The reason for this is that the orchestrator actually is just writing out what Williams already indicated in his shorthand score. It's not like Williams doesn't know how to orchestrate, it is just too time consuming when working on a movie score that has to meet a deadline.
@@Quotenwagnerianer you underestimate the creativity involved in orchestrating something, especially the JW scores. Sure he can orchestrate, but doesn't mean we shouldn't give kudos to the orchestrator. Williams is more detailed than many composers in his short scores, but anyone who gets paid to do orchestration work knows their input is much more significant than you are implying. I know a couple of fellow composers that do exactly this work for Hollywood films, and the reason no one understands this is just like everything else in Hollywood. A small group of people get the majority of credit and recognition for the work of thousands of people. The reason no one talks about JWs orchestrator is because people like you don't appreciate how significant of a role they play. It's much more than you think.
@@australiancomposer Well, to be fair there was a noticeable shift in his orchestral coloration after Herbert W. Spencer died. I believe "Hook" was the last score he did orchestrate. I did however attribute this to Williams entering a new phase instad of being a result of losing his long term Orchestrator. Especially since his concert works, unless he uses an Orchstrator for that as well, do not sound different in texture than his fiml scores.
@@australiancomposer man it varies by composer, project, deadline, and trust. JW’s sketches are so thorough he conducts from them during his scoring sessions, there isn’t much room for orchestrators to be creative here. It’s unfair of you to claim you know real orchestrators without acknowledging how different their tasks are depending on the composer and project
Sir John Williams IS THE MASTER of orchestration! As someone who has studied music nearly my entire 60 years, even his score for the 1970's blockbuster "Earthquake" was near perfection. And by then, he'd already been in the music business for over 30 years. From his pieces for Rod Sterling's "The Twilight Zone" series, to his latest "Harry Potter" & "Star Wars" scores, Sir John Williams never fails to deliver the perfect orchestration! He is unique in that he can pound out to orchestration error of the world's greatest composers, and give their music the proper sound they were meant to have.
Very cool breakdown. 10-tiplets are definitely a John Williams's special touch, that adds that flavor to his music. He's a master of brass and wind sections for many years. I think the usage of those sections has always made his music noticable, breathing and colourful.
This is such an underrated comment, I used to not find these sections and instruments so interesting for a long time until I had the opportunity to be in a project in my city and started studying and playing in a band, only brass and wind, and now I'm just amazed and in love with all I have seen they can do together when used in creative ways. We can do so much interesting things with movie soundtracks and it sounds so present, powerful and colorful, it's so unique and fun. Usually in orchestras it's like they are not actually being used in their full potential but JW knows how to give them the space and opportunity to show something else.
This discussion is similar to the process organists go through deciding on which stops to use. There’s a certain logic to it. Orchestras are way more standardized than organs, so it’s critical to understand how to replicate particular timbres on vastly different instruments.
I think my most favorite part of the orchestra score is the harp. The harp is such an essential part of the movie score. I feel the harp is so underrated that it doesn’t get the recognition it deserves.
yes, one of the things that must never go overlooked while dealing with woodwind instruments is that their players need to breathe, so if you give them a 1 minute solo without spacings they will faint
Your videos are incredibly helpful for a guitarist and songwriter like me who loves movie soundtracks and aims to infuse that emotion into my own songwriting. They're among the best I've found on RU-vid, so please continue doing what you're doing!
I am working on my first orchestral piece right now. Williams is a master at composition and orchestration. He uses the instruments in such a unique and fun way. This was really insightful.
Excellent video! I feel that I am pretty good at orchestration but this presentation was really eye opening. Thank you. I have Williams’ score for his Star Wars Suite but did not realise that Harry Potter was that interesting. Unlike many film composers, Williams writes in reduced score with all of the parts clearly marked - most compose at the piano and get someone else to orchestrate for them. Sure, Williams music needs orchestration in part but not like most composers. Great video.
I am a basstrombonist and a couple of times in the season the symphony orchestra where I work play different pieces from John Williams and these pieces are a world treasure.....but they are also freaking HARD. Anyway, every single time it's more then a pleasure to play John Williams ! MY DEEPEST RESPECT MAESTRO ‼️
I had been searching years for clear explaination on music theory of J-pop and after watching your video and getting the book you recommended I subscribed to the channel. The rest of your videos are just as informative and eye-opening, not to mention they are some of the most succinct and well articulated videos I’ve come across in my decade of composing. Keep up the great stuff!
This was really helpful, as I’m a beginning composer, and orchestration is probably the hardest part. As a woodwind band player, a comparison between how instruments are used in concert bands vs orchestras would be really helpful. It seems like they have to carry more weight in a band.
3:10 "Working as a group" I used to play in a fanfare band (Dutch/Belgian type of band with flugelhorns as the main instrument) and I always loved the saxophone section the most, because with a soprano, four alts, two tenors and a bariton they could make such beautiful music as a section on their own. None of the other sections (flugelhorns, trumpets, french horns, trombones, euphoniums and bass tubas) could do that. They all need eachother to build a full sound. The saxophone section can play on their own and sound amazing.
One of the most compelling and informative videos I've seen of John Williams on writing for woodwinds was this part of the Empire Strikes Back documentary where he's talking to his orchestrator Herbert Spencer. He sings out the line the winds are playing and it's clear that he's writing for the shape of the line alone, pitches don't matter so much as long as they conform to the shape and the players can play them. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-feNJSR1kPDo.html
Im learning how to play the Harry Potter mash (or something like that i can't remember its just a bunch of the songs) in my woodwind band class (im a clarinet btw) very fun and the way the song was made and how certain part work and why they're in there is very interesting
I usually don't like orchestration videos because they either lack practical examples or go into so much detail and variations that you loose focus. I'm pretty comfortable with writing for wind instruments of any kind but I think this helps anyone that has no clue how to write for woodwinds.
This is really cool, thank you for giving us these highlights! One think I wonder about is how much of the creative orchestration came from John Williams himself, and how much came from whoever is the orchestrator who takes Williams’ sketches and fleshes them out. I took a film music course and was amazed by how simple the sketches could be, vs the complexity of the finished product.
Yea someone else also pointed out that those orchestrators do not get enough credit. I will say that the sketches I remember seeing were very detailed, but also given his many years of composing orchestral music and conducting I think it's fair to assume he could do just as fine a job as anyone
I was so happy playing string bass for his nimbus 2000 because if I played the flute on that piece I would die and don’t get me started in the piccolo, but it’s still really fun
0:43 actually there are other parts like saxes and recorders are often in orchestras, Also instruments like English horn, bass clarinet and contrabassoon are subcategories.
About the wind instruments adding character and color : coming from sound design, I feel we do the same when we add just a bit of pink or white noise over waveforms or mixes (to add character and color). It's interesting to me because noise is the most important thing when we synthesize wind-ish sounds. Great pedagogy, thanks!
This is really fascinating! Would it be possible to hear those pieces with AND without the woodwinds so an untrained ear like mine could try and learn to hear the differences in the tones?
I mean both being in the key of c and both having a similar role among the strings and woodwinds respectively it makes sense why the park would be doubled
Thanks for the explanation. Would be good if there was comparison. How it sounds with just French horn and then how it sounds with the English horn added, etc, that kind of thing.
I like this quite a bit but if there’s one point of criticism for the video: I think it would be better if you showed what the instruments without the woodwinds sounded like and compared it to the orchestration *with* the woodwinds. I think it would illustrate the point of woodwinds being able to add texture more. Great video as always!!
I really feel that the bass clarinet is one of the most versatile instruments in the orchestra. Giving it solos needs a certain sensitivity but it can color the sound of almost any other instruments. It's less nasal than the double reeds but still reedy enough. Mahler and Strauss write really well and creatively for it. Franck symphony in D is also an interesting one for bass clarinet orchestration Edit: i like Mahler and Strauss's bass clarinet writing because they are not afraid of its range. Modern instruments have only extended that range
Hey! I love this! However I would really have loved to hear (especially in the doubling instruments part) and example without the “extra” element so that I can better compare the difference it makes (for example, play the sample without the oboe and then with it or add it halfway through).
Another piece to study for excellent handling of winds and strings is the sunrise movement from Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe. It's not easy, but much less challenging than some of the arpeggios in this cue.
I've just stumbled across your channel. Please forgive my late arrival. This has provoked a couple of little tidbits of reaction: #1: The staggeringly brilliant orchestrator Jonathan Tunick, whose affinity for wind parts is quite striking indeed (his first instrument is clarinet), wrote the original parts for a lot of Stephen Sondheim scores, including _A Little Night Music_ -- their original pit orchestra was prone to puns. So, the wind players retitled the song "Everyday A Little Death" as "Every Page A Little Breath" for obvious reasons. #2: I believe it's called a Dectuplet when their are 10 notes.
Would love to see a video on writing inner voice movement and how to decide how sparse or clustered the inner voices should be. Have been trying to tease out what the hell is happening in Jeremy Soule's Forgotten Vale written for the skyrim ost.
I'm not sure you needed to correct yourself at 4:46 , I would consider 'the' 5th to refer to the harmony, and 'a' fifth to refer to an interval, So from C I would consider 'the' 5th below to be G, and 'a' 5th below to be F. Maybe that's just how I phrase things? Just discovered your videos, this is the 2nd one I'm watching, already subbed with the bell notification! 😁Fantastically informative and well worded!
To me, woodwinds in an orchestral setting are all about color! Only percussion is more diverse and colorful, but is more limited especially regarding sustain, volume swells, and vibrato.
Flautist here - not a professional one, but I've been playing (on and off) for 40+ years. 😊 I can't write music so anything a composer does is amazing!
5:30 ".... to give the real human players a chance to breath" (clarinets commonly never being allowed to breathe in unison because every composer gives us constant 16th note runs would like to have a word with you.) The arpeggios are still pretty cool with slight differences between them. A personal challenge I have with them every time though is getting each note to come out and not rush ahead somehow.
And if you want to hear the woodwinds take the lead while supported/enhanced by brass and low strings (the inverse of many examples here) listen to the first variation of Brahms' "Variations on a Theme by Haydn."
I have unrelated questions but maybe you can help me with this, In Logic Pro X, sometimes i record multiple instruments but using the same note, my problem is that when I try to select them all and see them, they overlap on each other and I cant Identify If I recorded what I needed or not. Since you use Logic do you know if I can fix this issue? Thanks in Advance 🌹
Thank you a lot for this video. As a clarinet player it's awesome to hear from you something about the role of the winds. One half matches my own view as a wood wind player and the other half is completely new, bjt that makes it even greater. But why do you use a synthetic/artificial sound to demonstrate how the woodwinds sound in combination with other instruments? They just don't sound the same as they really do with such programs, so it's nearly impossible to really have a new auditive experience. Maybe you could use next time real examples. Thank you a lot for your video!!
@@RyanLeach ah sorry, I just didn't thought of the copy right problems. So I understand it's sad but you don't really have other options. But still I appreciate your effort and your videos, thanks a lot!
I would love a more in depth video about how to used woodwinds using a more woodwind-heavy score. This movie-does use woodwinds for purpose of support and flourish all things mentioned in the video. BUT does not represent how woodwinds are used idiomatically thru orchestral writing. Woodwinds are relied heavily upon for soloistic roles almost more importantly than they are as accompaniments. Woodwinds individually have their own characteristics that need to be addressed and understood before anyone needs to be writing for them
Scores I would recommend- Daphnis et Chloe, any Tchaikovsky symphony, any Mahler symphony, any Beethoven Symphony, any Berlioz symphony, any Shostakovich symphony… it goes on
Love the stuff about orchestra 1:28 the English horn is heard better on the longer notes Also you would think he would talk about the strings in this video because it is based on wizards
@@RyanLeach I mean the lower right corner. That's definitely the across the stars theme, which you also used in the cinematic strings video. Btw your videos helps a ton for orchestrating and composing!
