Haydn Symphony No. 12 | Giovanni Antonini | Il Giardino Armonico (Haydn2032 live) 

That "young lady violinest close to Giovanni" happens to be the concertmaster.

Sir Simon Rattle called Franz Joseph Haydn "A genius 'hidden' in plain view."

Dann weiter so, es ist immer etwas schönes zu entdecken 😊

I once read that Haydn conducted seated at the keyboard. A director as we know him today didn't exist then. I wonder why most early music ensembles don't do this. Maybe it doesn't make any difference but it would be interesting to compare.

@@christianwouters6764 There is a famous painting of a performance of Haydn’s opera L’incontro improvviso (1775) from the opera house at Eszterhaza which shows clearly Haydn at the harpsichord directing the performance; he is surrounded by the continuo instruments which were all obviously essential for the recitativo secco. (It’s a pity we can’t add images to RU-vid comments, but if you haven’t seen the painting, check it out). Haydn also played the organ for church services - or whenever else a keyboard was needed - as we know that throughout the Esztehaza years (1761-1790) no other keyboard player was ever employed. Apart from that, James Webster - following on from the work of a number of others - has pretty much established that Haydn played the violin during the symphony performances at Eisenstadt and Eszterhaza. Webster’s study ‘On the absence of keyboard continuo in Haydn’s symphonies’ (1990) is eminently readable, and very interesting; highly recommended. Regarding the direction/leading of the orchestra, that’s a trickier question as it appears unclear as to what were the exact roles of Haydn himself and the lead-violin Luigi Tomasini; these different roles have never been properly established, though I would suggest that perhaps Haydn had overall control of the direction of the orchestra, but all the star-turns were given to Tomasini. A number of period-performance groups today *are* led from the harpsichord, especially in the Baroque music of the first half of the 18th century, but also into the Classical period from c.1750, rather more I suspect than are directed from 1st violin leader, though that does happen as well. The final point I would make is that 18th century musicians shared a common musical language which they understood thoroughly, they played music of their own age (or slightly earlier), often from their own in-house composers - they did not need huge amounts of input from a director or conductor because they were speaking the musical language of their own age. In contrast, conductors are needed by orchestras today as they may be playing Mozart and Mahler, Haydn and Hindemith, Bach and Berg, or whatever in the same programme meaning that a director/conductor is essential in a way it was not until the need became apparent about the time of Mozart and Haydn. Hope that answers your question.

@@elaineblackhurst1509 I saw the painting. Interesting, the set up of the orchestra is completely different than nowadays, with the first and second violins facing each other. The string players are clad in bright red jackets , Haydn himself in a grey coat. The opera was originally La Rencontre Imprevue ou Les Pelerins de la Mecque by Gluck. Apparently H wrote a new version on a translated text. Note also every musician is seated, not standing up as is now the custom for early music orchestra's, including that of Antonini. I wonder why this is, can only imagine this: playing an instrument standing up is uncomfortable, so they pay more attention to the director?

@@christianwouters6764 Glad you’ve found the image of the opera from Eszterhaza - it’s a useful and interesting document. The only additional point I would mention is that the painting clearly implies and shows that Haydn is directing the musical performance in essentially a modern way. Just a couple of points: Many 18th century opera libretti were re-cycled, re-used, revised, and so forth so that a number of them could be set many times by different composers; Haydn’s L’isola disabitata of 1779 for example had first been set by Bonno in 1754. A number of Haydn’s operas came into existence with little more than the name changed as in the case of La fedeltà premiata in 1781 which used the same text as L’infedeltà fedele which had been set by Cimarosa in 1779. Mozart in 1772, Anfossi in 1774, and JC Bach in 1776, all set Lucio Silla* to a text by Gamerra revised by Metastasio - the list is endless. The point you make about the seating is I think an erroneous but understandable conclusion; it is quite clear from all accounts whether written, or paintings and drawings, that the orchestras for opera were seated, whilst those for orchestral concerts remained standing. * Of the three, JC Bach’s setting written for the fantastic Mannheim orchestra and first rate singers is the one I would rate above the other two; as an opera seria it is a *very* fine work. Mozart’s setting obviously has its own merits, but prodigy or not, the 16 year-old boy’s commission for Milan - for myself - comes a clear second to the mature composer JC’s setting written four years later.

@@elaineblackhurst1509 could it be that the orchestra pit as we know it today wasn't used then? It would be logical then that the musicians we're seated at an opera performance, otherwise the audience couldn't see the singers on the stage.

You are quite right that amongst the greatest composers, E major (mi maggiore) is not a particularly frequently used key for symphonies; Haydn in fact wrote two E major symphonies: Symphony 12 (1763) Symphony 28 (1765) Mozart wrote no symphonies in E major, and into the next century, neither did Beethoven. If interested, simply Google ‘E major symphonies’ and a list of just over 50 generally speaking second-rate composers will appear - beginning with Abel and ending with Weingartner - though almost none of the works are performed with any regularity today apart from Bruckner 7 in mainstream concerts, and works by Schoenberg, CPE and JC Bach and one or two others by more specialist groups.

@@elaineblackhurst1509 As far as I know, Beethoven wrote three compositions in that key: the Fidelio overture and two piano sonatas, one from the early and the other from the late period. Don't know about any Mozart work in that key.

@@jorgelopez-pr6dr Our original conversation was obviously referring only to symphonies, but you’re right that most composers used E major elsewhere; without checking in detail, I remember playing the keyboard part in Mozart’s lovely violin sonata in e minor K304 many years ago which has some very beautiful lyrical sections in E major. Besides the Beethoven sonatas you mentioned, Mozart wrote no piano sonatas in E major, but there are three by Haydn in that key: Hob. XVI:13, 22, and 31.

The first one that comes to my mind is Alexander Scriabin's first symphony. Quite lovely and delicate and not fiery like his later more modern sounding works. There's a great recording of it, Valery Gergiev conducting the LSO.

@@davivaloarte And there is that epic finale of Tchaikovsky's fifth symphony.

There is not a single piece of evidence that Haydn ever used a harpsichord continuo in his symphonies written for the Eszterhazy princes from 1761 to 1790; this point has been extensively researched and written about by James Webster in particular. Webster’s study can be found in: Early Music - Volume XVIII Issue 4 (1 November 1990) pp599 - 608 ‘On the absence of keyboard continuo in Haydn’s symphonies’; it can also be found on the internet. The position regarding the seventeen or so pre-Eszterhazy symphonies written for Count Morzin between 1757 and 1761 is less clear; it is almost impossible to say with any authority that a harpsichord continuo was used or was not used. Regarding the Eszterhazy works beginning with Symphonies 6-8, the lack of evidence of a harpsichord being used is persuasive; you might for example expect to see figured bass parts on surviving manuscripts or copies. However, none are to be found, neither on any of the extant original scores nor on the surviving Eszterhaza orchestral parts.* Haydn himself almost certainly directed/co-directed the band from the first violin - his best instrument - which was normal for the time; it is not quite clear what was the respective roles of Haydn and the orchestra leader Luigi Tomasini in performances. Haydn and Tomasini would have been the last two players to leave the stage together at the end of the ‘Farewell’ symphony - itself evidence that no harpsichord continuo was being used at Eszterhaza for the symphonies even as early as 1772. Haydn definitely did use a harpsichord in the theatre at Eszterhaza, primarily for the recitatives in the opera productions and also a fortepiano seems to have been used much later when Haydn was in London, but that is an entirely different matter. Additionally, one has to understand that Haydn’s scoring is very precise, often quite spare, deliberate and particular, but it does not actually need the harmony filling out. That said, it is very possible that in some of the earliest symphonies, a continuo was intended, and that some of the occasional sparse harmony would have been expected to be filled-out by the harpsichord. It is also useful to note that when the composer Kraus visited Haydn at Eszterhaza in October 1783, he brought with him the completely re-written Symphony in c minor (VB 142) which was dedicated to and performed by Haydn. An important part of the re-write of this very fine symphony for performance at Eszterhaza - even though it was composed just one year earlier - was the removal of the harpsichord continuo. Kraus had actually written out the continuo part - probably for himself - in the c# minor original version of 1782, but it was removed in the re-write for performance at Eszterhaza. This is again clear evidence that Haydn was not using a continuo with his own band. Some of the recordings that have added the harpsichord as a continuo have obscured the composer’s intentions and it’s contribution is often both intrusive and unnecessary. However, it should be noted that some musicologists and conductors have argued that in spite of the lack of evidence, a harpsichord should be used. If you want to hear an - extreme - example with harpsichord continuo, try Roy Goodman and The Hanover Band in any of their recordings - to me they almost sound like harpsichord concertos. Trevor Pinnock in his fine recording of nineteen Sturm und Drang symphonies with The English Concert, uses a very discrete harpsichord continuo; Hogwood - following Webster’s scholarly advice - in his nearly complete recordings with the AAM, like Antonini here, does not use one. In summary: regarding Haydn symphonies recorded by authentic/original/period instrument orchestras over the past c.50 years. *Without* a harpsichord continuo: Antonini, Bruggen, Harnoncourt, Hogwood, Weil. *With* a harpsichord continuo: Goodman, Kuiken, Pinnock, Solomons. With so many recordings available now of different symphonies, by different conductors and orchestras, you can normally just check the cd sleeve notes to see whether a harpsichord is used or not - different recordings therefore give you the opportunity to compare and decide for yourself which you prefer, or as many choose to do, enjoy more than just one interpretation. I have also written some further detailed notes about the harpsichord continuo issue under the Kraus Symphony in c minor in this series. They appear under the older of my two comments beginning ‘This is a valuable contribution to...’. * I believe there may be possibly one reference to a continuo on one copy of Symphony 7; it is also true to say that if Haydn himself played the continuo, then he could have done so quite easily without having to read a figured bass.

@@elaineblackhurst1509 thanks for your reply! I appreciate this version better.

@@elaineblackhurst1509 Thank you madame. I'm learning so much from your explanations, so please continue with them. I'm certain that I'm not the only grateful one. Thanks, again.

Dejan Stevanic You are very welcome; the Haydn 2032 project has some of the most interesting and thoughtful contributions of any classical RU-vid channel from which we can all learn something. Additionally, without exception, the performances by Antonini and Il Giardino Armonico and Kammerorchester Basel are outstanding; we are very lucky.

@@elaineblackhurst1509 let's hope the Corona craze doesn't stop the 2032 project. The future of classical music looked very bleak already- young performers versus +65 audiences-and now public performances are forbidden for an indeterminate time. And the authorities care more for sports and pop events.

There is no harpsichord continuo being used in this series. You might like to check out the discussion elsewhere in this thread in answer to the question ‘Where is the harpsichord?’ Trompets [Recte: Trumpets].

@@elaineblackhurst1509 Yes, there are in the serie, and yes here only recte: Trumpets, and recte (other symphonies): drums! - so I've copied (!) the dates from the Haydn_2032 edition (the harpsichord indeed isn't here, but in others fact: isn't a phantasy-name by me, sorry): I corrected it HERE. (And the failure at all isn't my, but of the postig)

@@canaleteatrale6662 In English - Trumpets; In German - Trompeten. Just to be clear: Antonini is *not* using a harpsichord in any of the Haydn symphony performances in Haydn 2032, but you are quite correct that one is used occasionally in other works in the series such as the symphony in F major by WF Bach. Additionally, this symphony is scored for the standard early-Eszterhaza orchestra of 2 oboes, 2 horns, bassoon, and strings; there are no trumpet parts.