Heat Pump vs Oil Boiler. It's a no brainer. 

We pretty much install it now on all systems

@johntisbury I went for the cheaper non invasive OEM emonPi2 bundle (no heat meter; CT clamp & voltage monitor for power), at some point in future I might add in heat meter and electric meter to get measured COP (can get Carnot Simulated COP on current setup). At this point in time though the information gleaned has been invaluable, allowing me to find what I think is the sweet spot on my Daikin 6k. In process of navigating how to set up 'Heatpumpmonitor' display.

Thanks for watching!

@@UrbanPlumbers takes some creativity to come up with new ideas all the time.

same cost as new oil boiler if you dont include the radiators.

Ok, so changing to a heat pump and cylinder and pipework roughly equals the cost of replacing an oil boiler . I wish I wasn’t so skeptical as I’ve been involved with the fitting of a couple of heat pumps in the past and they certainly work. Maybe at some point you could show us the figures convert me. I’m open to it, not trying to be funny with you. You’re a really good installer 👍

Coming soon !

I live in Devon and it’s much much cheaper to run oil than a heat pump. I have two properties and I regretted fitting the heat pump. It’s sooo expensive to run!

@@mollyfilms Wow really you’re the first person that’s actually said that , all we tend to hear how efficient they are compared to gas bills , I tend to look at things from a different angle anyway = I still can’t get my head around getting a heat pump to heat water to then heat radiators to give warmth when you can get heat pump to give direct heat with the ATA system , when I’ve mention that to a few people on RU-vid who do blogs it’s as though I’ve said something I shouldn’t and need to stand on a naughty step, I watched a gentleman a few months back who got a heat pump = ATW and took out all the radiators and changed it to ATA , said he should of done that in the first place , have you heard much in regards to ATA ? Funny watched the urban plumber last night where he changed oil to heat pump and said that the house hold will save lots on the heating now , sounds like it’s all one big fat lie then ?

No it’s not a lie. Sadly 70% of heat pump installs are not done correctly and end up in systems nowhere near as good as what we install. There is a missive skills shortage as the industry has been massively dumbed down by a combi boiler. It is slowly getting better.

@@UrbanPlumbers I was responding to a gentleman who sent me a message in regards to the fact he lives in Devon and wished he had kept his oil because the heat pump he had installed is more expensive to run , so I mentioned that I had watched your video and said you had said the opposite, so both can’t be correct. I understand what you said in regards to skill shortages unfortunately it seems to fall on the household to pay in the long run with having a bad system installed, I replied to heat geek and another person with heat pumps in mind , and mentioned both you and the heat geek gentlemen as the best on RU-vid and remarked with the look on your faces when you see different systems installed and items used that’s not needed or badly designed systems and one might add guess work rather than knowledge is apparent, so I mentioned today to a person is there or might be a good idea to have some kind of computer program so we the household can see what would be the ideal set up by putting into the program sizes of rooms etc, there are calculations as example for heat loss and different settings one can adjust on the thermostats etc , if there was a blueprint to coin a phase it would be handy for the installers and take the guess work out of the installation = also if you see the installers bring in 17 circulating pump and a buffer unit and expansion vessels by the truck load at least you can say straight away I’m in trouble here , on my conclusion I want to say to you go back and have a look at the comments I have sent to you over the last few months , in my lifetime I have never praised anyone as much as you = considering I was born that long ago that rainbows were only in black and white = not young but then the soul never ages , I say now again as far as you is concerned = my opinion stays the same as I have mentioned in my previous comments,

​@@mollyfilms I just replaced an oil boiler with a heat pump in an old 170sqm house and it is definitely cheaper than oil overall for my particular install. Of course this will be down to the quality of the install. If you can get the flow temperature low enough, as a result of good design, you will always be cheaper than oil.

We do need to factor if oil condenser boiler is cheaper upfront payment, running cost just part of equation

Oil is not anywhere near £1.25 ltr it’s about 67 p ltr and coming down

They are using euros so may not be UK

@@eliotpalfreman1232 Worse over here in the Netherlands for natural gas. About 3/4 of the price is energy tax and VAT. Even a kWh of electricity is about 50% tax, but with a heat pump that still easily beats a gas bioler.

​@@jeremydennis176 it's is in Ireland most of the time it's at that price

Thanks 👍

I am buying at Installer 👍

Haha no drama!

@bordersw1239 just been through the same thought process when my oil boiler needed replacing, together with an aging plastic 2500 liter oil tank (that would need to be replaced and moved and was out of warranty). Even if my insurance covered the potential £20,000 cleanup cost of a burst tank I am sure this event would have long term consequences for the value of my property. I am now safely running a very efficient heat pump that is not pushing massive amounts of small particles into the air for my kids to breath in. I could not be happier with my decision.

40 deg c is Luke warm rads! Cold house in winter! An oil/gas unit will give you 65/70 deg c! Over complicated system and very expensive to repair in future! Heat pump has 10-15 years tops life span! A well maintained oil/gas unit will give you 25-30. If the house was built before the 1980s a heat pump will struggle!

@user-xk8fg8yg5e stop talking about things you have absolutely zero clue about

​@@user-xk8fg8yg5e Only someone with no heating engineering skills would take one factor (flow temperature) and try to make a point from it. Clearly you have no clue what you are talking about .... sorry.

20 years oftec registered! I do know what I am talking about! In a modern property heat pumps will work ok! I have seen so many heat pumps literally thrown in without the proper calculations!

Modern oil boilers have been low nox for number of years now . And average property doesn’t need anywhere near 2500 ltrs . 1000 to 1250 I’d say is normal as most home owners only buy 500-1000 ltrs at a time , I’ve quite few where 1000 ltrs lasts well over a year with decent insulation.

You need a heat meter suitable for your system, mid meter, wiring between fuse board and the plant room, spare water in the fuse board for the mid meter, cat5 cable from the router to the plant room and a spare single socket in the plant room. It requires cutting into pipework as well - so Plumbig. And electrical works are required. It really a DIY job.

No, 5kw and 7kw don’t have PRV built in only 10 and 12 do

@@UrbanPlumbers ah right. That’s another revelation!! 🙄😫

Regular cylinders are much cheaper and with small heat pumps there isn’t as much benefit to fit super coils. Also - wait time now is 6weeks!

@@UrbanPlumbers I knew you would have a great explanation. My question was very tongue in cheek. Thanks for replying!

It doesn’t matter what size the primary piepwork is as long as you use correct heat meter.

Yes

@@UrbanPlumbers which video is it? Thanks

If you have drainage nearby then it doesn't have to go to the outside.

Yes, 300mm going in after Urban Plumbers came out, didn't make sense to fill the loft up and make their work more difficult.

@@christianfaversham3766 Awesome!

It’s a game changer. I will be testing it soon at my own place - video coming soon!

@@UrbanPlumbers OOOOH man can't wait for that one, Christmas is coming early this year .

No problem at all. It has 200 unvented cylinder so good for up 4 people.

The unvented cylinder provides mains pressure hot water at exactly the right temperature (usually @ 43-45C), a shower head attached to mixer taps, where turning on HW is all that's needed for a brilliant shower.

It’s not a Y plan. It’s a reversed valve with 3 wires only (diverter only normally closed to DHW)

@@UrbanPlumbers I think it's W plan isn't it?

Correct, no floor insulation, however the engineered wood floors with foam underlay combined with carpets and Cloud 9 underlay does a good job. The cavity wall insulation had sunk creating damp walls, so we got it removed and replaced with Thermabead Carbonsaver Bead Cavity Wall Insulation which has made a big difference.

Ohh trust me - this one stank

We did both - changed all rads and pipework (it was easy here as we run new primary pipework in the loft) - existing pipework to the rads was fine and didn't need chaning.

@@UrbanPlumbers Ahh yes, I thought so, so basically a new system, what did it cost, when you look at capital cost v savings, I can’t help thinking it would be a very slow ROI, maybe a ten year plus turnaround. So the question is why bother? Don’t get me wrong, I love what you guys do, I just think it’s all smoke and mirrors. Are you up in Birmingham next week, I’d love to catch up.

Yep - will be at installer. The total cost of this system was around £1k maybe 2k more than just swapping the oil boiler and repairing existing system. However if BUS grant wasn’t available at 7.5k then this wouldn’t make much sense in pure financial terms.

59p per litre.

I dont understand how its that cheap. In my country there is no thing as heating oil anymore, you just get to pay the pump diesel price for it. 1.60€ a litre.

@@garage3022 UK has always had cheap(er) oil for heating & agriculture. There's 20 second oil which is kerosene & 35 second which is diesel. The cheap diesel is dyed red.

With the BUS grant taken off, the total job was equal to the cost to replace a 25 year boiler and new radiators.

R290

@@UrbanPlumbers the exclusion zone is just to big on the 290 going to prevent a lot of installations in my opinion

cost of new oil boiler was exactly £1,000 less than the heat pump and all new radiators. With solar PV and battery storage he will save mroe like £900 a year. He is in a good position as he can get solar and stoage for a fraction of the going rate. For the landlord it was more about not having to use oil as this system should way more maintance free. Also - that oil set up was already dead, needed upgrading anwyay.

And what about the cost of solar panel and battery system? That £75/year saving will take 400years to pay off. I agree with you. Not worth all that additional cost. It's like people at work that say they saved £100, but forgot they spent £1000 to do so!

Or used oil filled radiators and put his thousands in the bank that would have paid for the running costs and had some left over. Companies only want to fit all this as there must be a government payment or grant.

@@OH2023-cj9if oil-filled radiators would cost £4,000 a year to run so a pretty stupid idea.

Having a smart meter can also open up time of use tariffs to further reduce the cost.

Coupled with PV and battery storage it will be free to run.

new oil boiler was the same cost as new heat pump

@@UrbanPlumbers so the heat pump and new system came in at £1500 - 2500? What was wrong with the old boiler? Its very unusual for a condensing oil boiler not to be repairable. What happens when the heat pump compressor fails after 8 years and its not repairable? A heat pump system is certainly a consideration but its far from being a no brainer.

@paulhutchinson5695 new oil boiler supply and fit was 5-6k

As it was the landlord who installed it and the tenant who will save on bills I think we can assume they had other reasons for doing it.

@@AmosMoses777 Stupidity???....

I would guess environmental reasons. There is also every chance that oil boilers will be phased out in the next years. So why not replace it now when there is grant money available? If your tenants have low bills then you're less likely to have problems with rental arrears. Also likely to have tenants who stay long term if the bills are lower than they would get elsewhere. Off the top of my head that's three. Together we found FOUR potential reasons.

System will be much more reliable than gas or oil. There will be no bills to pay. House is always warm and no needs to think about turning the thermostat on or off. For the cost of new oil boiler they got a full new heating system. No brainier

@@AmosMoses777 Replace 25 year old kero combi boiler + System Flush + Replace rusty oil tank, less government BUS grant = £00.00 cost

Average scop of all my 40 installs is 4.5 so not optimistic - realistic. 15 years lifespan no sweat on those.

@jonnysegway7866 Most people in this country already own a couple of heat pumps and don't even know it, you probably do to. The heat pump in my fridge is still working after 18 years and it cycles a lot (by design). On for 20 mins off for 40 mins ... for the last 18 years. The heat pump in my 16 year old Volvo is just showing signs of needing a gas top up. Since I heat up my hot water cylinder on off peak electricity @16p / kWh at a COP of 2.5 (equivalent to 6.4p / kWh), oil would need to be @6.4p per kWh to match my heat pump. Oil is currently at 13.8p / kWh so 2x more expensive than my heat pump. I should add that my heating SCOP is over 4.

Running a kero boiler system for 1 hour and 23 hours off doesn't warm the home. FYI on an 8.5p British Gas off peak EV tariff and a confirmed COP of 4.65 equals 1.8 pence per kilowatt hour, the best you could get from kero is 7p per kwh. Storing the EV tariff kwhs into a DIY battery storage you lose 10% still brings you under 2p per kwh. Of course if you have solar panels you don't buy in so much off the grid.

He states 5-6k for an oil boiler and fit. An extra 1k on this for the heat pump and radiators after grant. And then more for the batteries and solar separate.

You really suggest that a family with kids runs a diesel heater? 😂 what part of: the tenants will pay zero bills is worse than a diesel heater?

Why ?

I'd have my oil boiler back any day .there's four of us in your house if one has a bath before the rest have showers you run out of hot water that's with 250ltr tank .and you have to leave it on 24/7 for heating .if you havnt got solar and battery storage it's a road to financial ruin.

Replace 25 year old kero combi boiler + System Flush + Replace rusty oil tank, less government BUS grant = £00.00 cost

As Szymon noted, the kerosene boiler was 25 years old, and the metal oil tank was rusty inside. On hot sunny days, the smell of kerosene was unbearable. As a taxpayer for 50 years who has never drawn any benefits, I accepted the BUS grant, which reduced the cost of the Heat Pump installation to £1,000, the same amount I would have spent replacing the kerosene tank. So, financially, it was a break-even situation with no additional expense. With a British Gas EV tariff, the heat pump costs 1.8p per kWh. Adding a few solar panels and a battery reduces the demand on the grid. Australians use the same arrangement to alleviate peak demand on their grid.

Absolutely you did the right thing for you and I very much wish both you and Szymon well. But the economics don't allow everyone to do what you did. 1. We can't all pay each other many thousands, for everyone to have a subsidised heat pump. The BUS scheme which funded you is pump priming to ramp up the industry, like the 43p/unit feed in tariff for the first domestic solar panels, to whom the poorer majority are still paying more than current electricity prices. 2. 7.9p/u cheap night electricity would not remain cheap if night demand increased with more heat pump and EV demand. 3. Latest contracts for wind are being placed at up to 17.6p/u. That's the price that the grid PAYS to the wind farm for EVERY SINGLE UNIT, even the ones you use at 7.9p. That pushes up the day rate for everyone, which is only held low by gas power stations. 4. Solar panels/battery gear costs over £8k for an installed 5 kWh - 5u. With the average domestic demand being 7.4u/day, that might supply just enough solar electricity on a sunny day and battery storage for the evening peak. But it won't if you add around 20u/day for your heat pump. 5. Installed costs of battery storage are around £5000 for a 5u battery. If you want it to last more than 1000 cycles, you only charge it to 80% and discharge it to 20%. So the real storage is 3u. If you use all that capacity every day for 20 years (and your battery won't last that long) that's 20p/u simply for the storing of any electricity you put in. 6. A 1200 litre oil tank holds 12,000u of energy, thousands of times more than a 5u solar battery. We are not Australia: in the winter where, periods of dunkelflaute last sometimes for weeks and solar/batteries contribute nothing, oil boilers place no demand on the grid. Shift every oil and gas boiler to the grid and we find enormous peak winter demand which, on those dark, windless winter evenings, have to be met by gas power stations and an enormously strengthened electricity grid at £100,000 per home. 7. I know it's not easy but more transparency in the whole industry would really help. For instance 'My heat pump installation cost £17,000', or whatever would be so much clearer than 'with the subsidy it only cost £1000 more than...' Good wishes

@@markellse my priority is to have the most cost effective solution over a 5 year plan. The Grant outside combi boiler, kero tank, pipwork and wiring was all too old and giving problems. To replace the boiler, fuel tank, dispose of the scrap, transfer the kerosene, commisison a new kero combi boiler was going to cost circ £7k + £20% vat £8,400. The Grant Vortex outside combi boiler has to be on 24/7 which uses average 1 litre fuel per 24hr period holding temperature for on demand DHW and or CH = 365 litres per annum wasted. If you add £7,500 grant onto £8,400 that gives you circa £16k to play with, no agro and no smells. Add on another £1,000 for 1,825 wasted litres of standby kero over 5 years, you now have a new Heat Pump, new bigger Radiators, Monitoring, Guarantee, and a few quid left over for a fish and chip celebration supper ! Solar panels and a battery doesn't have to be through the roof if you can do DIY, fit and source yourself. I get your point about the grid demand, Rolls Royce should be suppling SMRs in the UK soon which will help suport and balance EV and HP demand. Trying to get across the long term financials, when an old system is uneconomical to repair, it's good to look ahead to something more cost sensible than keep pumping cash into a dead duck.

​@@christianfaversham3766Thanks, Christian, for that very informative and interesting information. Your decision makes sense from your point of view and I can see why you did it. There is a lot of sense in a well engineered heat pump setup. It's very elegant - heat leaks from the hot house into the cold surroundings and we use just a little bit of electricity to pump an equal amount back in. But the whole system complexity scribbles over the elegance. Since wind is variable, it has to be backed up with an equal amount of gas generation and as many new gas power stations as wind farms. The power stations are run intermittently to fit in with the wind, so are therefore run inefficiently. The capital cost and the embodied energy in supply to the grid is much increased, on top of the grid hardening already discussed. Solar, on the other hand, I don't think makes any sense in the UK. It's contribution is negligible and it comes at a time when the grid is generally in surplus, producing efficiency losses for gas power stations greater than the benefits of its contribution. But for all, maintenance and replacement costs may the determining factor. I'm struggling to find someone to get my car heat pump serviced. (I mean the one that pumps heat out in sumner.) I'd hate to have that for my main heating system. GW, Mark

Do the maths yourself. Replace 25 year old kero combi boiler + System Flush + Replace rusty oil tank, less government BUS grant = £00.00 cost

Tell me about your "Cold" climate in Scotland.

Heat pump manus would rather keep selling boilers as it easy money for them. Scotland is not a cold climate and heat pump work perfectly well there. No one pays me apart for happy customers

@rabhaw2327 in this country we very rarely install gas and oil boilers to run as efficiently as possible. If we can't even get those [legacy] systems installed optimally, it is no surprise that that the majority of installers in the UK can't be bothered to install heat pumps properly (heat pumps are likely more sensitive to incompetence than gas and oil in terms of installed running cost)