i did too, but, i feel the helix sat better in the mix. but that's what you'd do to any amp to be recorded. just could feel less compression and natural amp feel with B.
Mad isn't it, on his jcm shootout I thought B was the best and the amp, followed by D, turns out they were axe FX and kemper, which sounded great but goes to show helix nailed the actual amp
From this video, I believe Jon knows how to dial in modeler to sound as close as possible to real amp because he owns many tube amps. On the other hand, I, who have only one tube amp, find it difficult to dial in because my ear isn't used to the sound of real amp. In the end, I don't care anymore how close a modeler sound compared to real amp. I dial the modeler to get the sound that like. If I can't find it, I try another amp model. A good sound is a good sound regardless where it comes from.
I think of the real amp as giving us an accurate reference for what the individual amp model does. From there its just a matter of getting the tone you're looking for. To any one who is new to modelers, I recommend having a tone in mind so you have a goal and I place to stop when you get there. Though you should play with everything to learn your way around, you don't want to get lost in the Forrest of knob tweaking for eternity. Don't forget to save when you get your tone worked out.
That’s the biggest raft of turd there is. People need to beware that there’s sound, and then there’s the feel/experience of playing. The latter is currently very lacking. Some, maybe like yourself, don’t get bothered or notice, but many of us definitely do notice that loss of organic connection to the sound. It might save someone a lot of money and wasted time to realize that early on. Feel is just as important to creativity as is time spent hunched over a computer and mouse.
Wow! I was dead wrong. Makes sense that the amp is more evenly compressed, especially on the palm mute lows. AMAZING job. Thank you so much for sharing this. It`s a killer tone and will be heavily used in the future on my songs. Cheers!
Wow Jon, in this video the amps sounded identical to me, where as in the last video there was more of a distinction. I had originally guessed that Tone A was the real amp, as it had that brightness and fullness I would expect from a real miked cab. But then I remembered that we're not in the old days of POD technology (nothing wrong with those days anyhow) and it could really go either way, brightness does not equal authenticity, now that modelers can capture that high end sizzle that Rectifiers have without sounding digital and harsh, I'm a happy camper. Many people commented on how Tone B felt more real to them, and that was fascinating to realize that modeling technology has come so far that any associations we have with something sounding analog or digital are being blurred. The results don't surprise me, so I realized I can go back and forth with this, A or B could be the real tone or they could be modeled though in the end I thought A sounded better to my ears. These tools are so helpful for us musicians, to be able to have a worlds worth of amplifiers at our fingertips!! Also glad you at least talked about "feel" and response. With a modeler you are hearing what a studio engineer might hear, the sound of an amp in a studio rather than in a room. Excellent video, and fantastic songwriting and tones as always!!
They both sounded great, and I couldn't tell the difference between them. I'm glad you used a Helix, as I recently purchased an HX Stomp. I'll have to test out your settings "without an IR." I hope I can get close - don't know if that's realistic or not, as I haven't tried any IR's yet. I found the test and results very interesting, and they sounded really inspiring. Thanks for showing the Helix Native settings. Real Amps aren't practical for me, so the results need to sound great in Monitoring Headphones. Subscribed
Your video comes up at the right time mate, I'm curently working on a Rectifier-based sound to match the rhythm sound of the last Nightwish album (very very scooped, almost no bass), so all these tips are coming quite handy ! Great great GREAT content !
Great video! I had picked B to be the real amp, so I was right there. But very subtle differences indeed! Can’t wait to copy these settings in my Helix! Great job! Thanks!
Great video! I think another good idea for a video “series” would be an “Artist Tones” series or Song tones series for the Helix. You could start off with like a Mark Tremonti tone (he uses a Rectifier and a PRS MT15) and he goes through mesa cabs and then has the wah at the front with just a little delay and a tube screamer at the end for his lead tones. But, it would be an interesting series to get the “exact” setup and exact tones for his gear in the Helix for those who want to dial it in for themselves. It could be the Rhythm, Lead and Clean tones the artist use. I know you’ve done this before with John Petrucci and I really enjoyed it (although that one is even probably ready for an update with the lates Distance over time album sound) but you could have some other artists as well. Great video and enjoyed the comparison! 👍🏻
They sounded very, very similar to me. Very subtle differences. If they weren't played back to back or in a mix, I wouldn't have known any difference at all. The main thing for me between the newer modelers and tube amps is their ease of use.
Hey I was right! I also preferred A, which was a big part of it. Something awesome about modelers that no one seems to point out is they can achieve idealized versions of tones! There are many amps whose overall character I dig but then at the same time I don't fully get along with certain elements of their tone, and I felt I was hearing that in B. With the power of DSP it's easy to fix the rough edges to morph a tone into what we want while still keeping the awesomeness of the overall character of the real amp.
I guessed right! I had a bit of background that the Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier and the Soldano SLO essentially share a high gain preamp and I have heard Mike Soldano talk about the design of that preamp. (That's another interesting topic but I won't go into it.) Usually the way I can tell the real amp is the modeler, to my ears, usually has a harsher diode clipping thing. The problem with this test is that the SLO and Dual Rec preamps use cascading diode clipping to create the high gain symmetrical distortion which would create that harsh diode clipping sound no matter what. The power amps are where you see those amps sounds diverge the most. If you listen closely in the A/B comparison there is power amp distortion that's particularly noticeable in the lower-mid frequencies. I thought that immediately meant B was the real amp and so that's what I picked. Someone else pointed out to me that the Mesa would need to be cranked for that to be true and since it isn't present in A that could be the real rectifier and the modeler had poweramp distortion. I would love to see more focus on that since I think the Dual Rec is a particularly interesting amp for this type of comparison and with an SLO I wonder if you could get closer because of that different power amp section.
i just couldn't find anything online that comes close to sounding as well rounded as a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier but you did the job right. Can't tell the difference.
Like and then watch the video. This one confirms the high quality of Helix. I really wanna buy one someday. Of course, terrific tones, as always. I'll wait for more blind tests with digital stuff, maybe Neural DSP or something like that.
For sure B had more low end, which is what I would go with at first glance. Very interesting comparison and must say Helix does a nice job and may be even tweaked further to make up for that missing low end. Great tone from that Mesa by the way, really nice!
More tasty jams! Dude, I love your music. I would love if you published all of your songs just as they are. It would be awesome to see you be a guest guitarist with Mastodon too! You rock!
It was hard to guess but the clue was that A sounded more “polished” and “finished”, like something you’d hear on a Metallica-record, where B had a bit more randomness into it, which made me guess it was the real amp! Awesome videos once again!
You all probably dont give a shit but does any of you know of a tool to get back into an instagram account?? I stupidly lost the account password. I would love any tips you can give me
@Charles Colby thanks so much for your reply. I got to the site thru google and I'm in the hacking process atm. Seems to take quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.
Its nearly impossible to tell the two apart, great video! One question though: you being such an awesome guitar player, do you play in a band? Would love to hear your songs!
I got it right! but I'm sure it was a coincidence. if you asked me in different days I'd probably had thought the helix was the amp and viceversa. such a nice comparison! I like to think the differences in sound is like a difference between 2 amps of the same line, sutil, like they have a personality. it just happens to be that the helix's personality is more repeateable :) thanks for the great tones! love the channel.
Not being a rectifier expert, I could never guess which was real. I picked the Helix as a “better” or preferred tone. It had slightly better defined mids, which leads to popping out in mix, therefore; being able to turn down guitar and leave more space for vocals or lead guitars.
Both sounded almost identical. However, I found the Recto to sound a tiny bit "fuzzy" and I realized it was that one. In summary, I would go with the helix for easy/clean recording and the recto for the experience of playing a real tube amp.
you can hear it in the palm mutes, valves have this sponginess that when driven sounds killer. Digital tries to recreate it but sounds slightly thin and false in comparison.
Just looked it up and L6 used the same model you're using. "Based on a 2001, 3 Channel Mesa/Boogie Dual Rectifier Solo Head. - We used Channel 3 on the Modern setting for this one with the rear switches set to Bold and Tube Rectifier, respectively."
Jon dude... thanks voor deze video, Recto’s zijn mn favo amps of all time, en wegens redenen kan ik geen echte veroorloven/spelen hier want... buren... dus ben ik al heel lang aan t zoeken naar die Recto sound zoals k m me herinner in mn Helix... en ik probeer deze settings en BAM daar is t 😂
Has much as I love my Helix, I thought it was pretty clear that B was the real amp and "better". I think cutting back on the gain and/or the mids just a tiny bit on the Helix one would've made the comparison even closer but still, two great sounding tones. However, on the next blind test I got fooled completely and really thought A was the real amp, it was the Helix :)
I very much preferred the clip of the real amp in the blind test, but funnily enough I thought that was the modeler. Because to me, we're at a point where modelers actually sound better than real amps, and since I preferred it, I automatically assumed it was the modeler!
Yeah, I got it right! Or rather I preferred "B". I own a Dual Rectifier so I gotta feel how they sound like. By dang these modeling are so close I have to admit. I played my friend's Yamaha model amp and there's something about the "A" that reminded me of 'modeling'.
The thing with this that I and many people miss is YES: the modeler sounds “better” -especially in the mix. When you want to jam, and you’re going through a modeling platform vs a real amp... then you’ve got a different type of issue on your hands. The amp is more fun and feels so much better for that experience, and I don’t think anyone can argue that. Not any normal guitarist that isn’t afraid to play an amplifier that is. I’ve seen some players that are like a prude widow grandmother with their guitars volume.
Pretty cool! I got it right this time around. Although the modellers are getting close, I can usually tell which is which by the weird, hifi sounding highs modellers seem to always have present. They're getting close but no cigar IMO!
yes... same as you... the modelers have that quality that I can only describe as HiFi.... I do happen to like it... specially as the modeler is way lighter :-)
I said I preferred the sound of B, but couldn’t say which was which. I especially enjoyed seeing some many tube amp lovers (who claim that nothing could sound as good as a real tube amp) get it so wrong 🤣
Well, in live situations it still does matter, but unless you're going for a very specific sound, Modelers are more than good enough for recording now days.
@@guybuddy1 a lot of sound engineers tend to prefer working with little to no stage volume and having to deal with spill between mics and the volume war that tube amps can instigate. I think both have their place and own pros and cons.
As an engineer that has dealt with modelers both live and in studio, in a live situation I would prefer the modelers being used 9 times out of 10 unless the guitar player knows exactly what he is doing with his tone and how it affects the entire mix, and even then would probably use some sort of load box if possible with a cab sim to be sent to FOH. In a more controlled situation in studio it depends on the sounds I'm trying to achieve, if the band is trying to bring a crappy amp or one of my own amps does not adapt to the situation then yeah I go with an amp sim hands down. They sound so good in the mix when dialed in right. I usually even with amps record the dry signal from the performance for the chance of reamping later on...the creative and tonal possibilities are so big, it's awesome to be an engineer nowadays.
B had more top-end definition - I was hoping that would have been the Helix :) to finally close the case once and for all. Both were very close and this video was a great testament to how close modeling is getting to the real thing. In a mix, it's probably minimal. Nice job.
This is awesome, I really suck at dialling in good tones with the helix, I just want to ask, how would you eq this set up for a live set up at higher volumes? I can get ok’ish tones at bedroom level, but in bigger spaces and higher volumes the tone just sucks 😂 I’m sure there’s loads of things I’m doing wrong, but if you have any tips on a live set up with this would be really great :)
To me, sound-wise, modellers and sims have come so far that you'd be very hard-pressed to be able to distinguish between them and the real deal. But for me, and why I went back to real amps, is the feel when dialing in tones and the ease of just turning it on and play. Having to use software to dial in tones killed my inspiration and was a big reason why I stopped playing for almost 6 years. I finally figured out why, got myself a real amp (Engl Fireball 25) and am getting back into it now. Your channel was a huge reason why I got my interest up for amps again, so thanks for that! :) With all that said, as always, great videos! Any plans on getting the Badlander for comparison? Would love to see it against Dual Rec, Mark V35, Rec Mini, etc :)
Sounded really close. I thought i heard more high frequency digital fizz on A while B sounded smoother. But otherwise they sounded identical to my ears. I did gues that B was the real amp though. Very impressed to how extremely close you got with Helix. Amazing! Although i am a proud Helix owner, i still prefered the nice warm ‘smooth’ distortion of the real amp.
I truly love my HX Stomp. Very good comparison in the other vid. I was stumped. Lol. Question? What are you using for monitors for your modelers? Thanks. Love your work.
Hi John, i put your settings in my Hx stomp and i really like this tone especially for drop Tunings. But i think it s difficult to get a good crunch and lead tone with the Cali Rectifier. Maybe you can help with another Video? That would we great. King regards.
What’s going on here… I’ve put the exact same settings and IR into my helix and it sounds completely different! The low end is out of control and overwhelming. Are you applying any EQ or cut to the bass that you haven’t mentioned in this video?
I think my tinnitus made me make a mistake because I was rigth!!! :) Seriously, in a mix it´s impossible to know for sure, I thought the Helix just because you use it a lot but there are a lot of plugins out there in the same ballpark. I think when we ask you about the feeling, it´s about the feeling playing, and how diffetent guitars "feel" when you play real amps vs. playing plugins. IMHO sometimes plugins feels like playing "plastic" even sounding good, for me, the feel playing with my couple of valve preamps it´s absolutely different than playing plugins. Or maybe I´m totally deaf...that could be... :)
i've got a helix and my preset doesn't sound as good, can you share it? the only difference in the blind test i could hear was a little more saturation on the real amp and the helix was really close. thanks for sharing the preset in the video, i don't have that IR, but i do have a good one i can try out.
well the reason they sound the same is because you are you using a cab load and IR for the real amp.... that is your answer.....at some point do a comparison with a miced amp ( sm57 + R121) VS the helix ....THAT would be a good video
It would be interesting to see how it sounds with a miced up cabinet if you use the sim pre amp into the boogie poweramp. Ofc in a versus with the built in preamp
I copied your settings on Cali Rectifire and damn, I need a booster in front of it. Even with booster its not sound as tight as yours. It's muddy for some reason. I'm using Schecter Omen with Dimarzio CrunchLab and Liquifire pickups. Maybe my strings is old or... Idk. Tnx for the video BTW :)
The Super 57 pickup in my Les Paul has a nice cut and presence. The Crunchlab is cool but it has a lot of low end. Try placing an eq in front of the amp cutting some low end.
The IR is a big part of it. The stock IR's in Helix aren't super good. Highly recommend getting some 3rd party ones like the Ownhammers. Also, you're listening to a dual tracked tone, which can be much nicer than an individual sound.
So I guessed A was the modeler and B was the actual Mesa given Mesa amps have a signature "flubbiness" to the low frequencies. I wouldn't have been able to guess it was the Helix given I don't have enough experience with other modelers other than the Kemper to know their quirks, but I actually preferred the Helix over the sound of the real amp.
I got the platform correct, but I guessed that A was the amp (which was wrong). The Helix sounded better than the amp because the amp sounded too dark and sludgy IMO.
I think this is one of the things often overlooked about modelers, in our desire for them to 'perfectly' match old, real amps. Many real amps have undesirable characteristics that people go to lengths to improve or eliminate, so maybe a better goal with modeling is to make ideal amps, instead of perfect re-creations. I don't have a strong opinion either way, I just think it's an idea worth considering.
@@400_billion_suns I agree. Boss has gone that route with their GT1000 series of products where they don't have any models explicitly trying to recreate a real world amp. Both Fractal and Line6 have done this to an extent as well with proprietary amp "models" along side recreations of classic amps. I like this approach (having models of real world amps as well as idealized models). Modelers can do it all these days and it is amazing.
Hehe I even guessed that it was the Helix. I have one myself and mine has the same digital fizz. But still I admit that my guess was absolute luck :) So people if you can't afford 20 tube amps buy one of the modelers. But as he points out in the video you have to fiddle with the settings to get the best results.
this guy makes everything sound great. he could take an orange boss distortion pedal, plug it into a discarded peavey p.a., and get it to sound like a professional radio track.
Your accent is impeccable, only now that I know that you're dutch (from one of the videos where we could see the language in your PC) do I detect the dutchie :D
John how do you get dual tracked guitar DI's to work with Helix in stereo with one instance? I can't figure out how to use Helix on double tracked guitars other than using an instance on the left guitar and an instance on the right guitar, then send those two tracks to a bus with a stereo impulse. I want to be able to use one instance on a stereo bus and have one amp block to mess with, etc. is that how you have it set up?
I always have one instance per guitar, so one per each side. I guess maybe you could use one instance on a stereo bus, using the 2 lanes? I'm not sure though as I've never tried that
Did you forget to talk about the feeling of playing, going straight into the amp sim vs. the real amp? Or did I just missed that part? 🙂 Are you experiencing any difference between the two, or is it all the same to you?
would increasing the master volume on the helix help with even'ing out the dynamics? since the sag control works in conjunction with the master control, and with a lower master volume the sag wont affect the dynamics as much?
As far as i know after some surf on the net, master parameter on helix are not just increasing volume but increasing gain also (channel volume are parameter that solely increasing volume) , sag are parameter that emulate the natural tube compression like real tube amp do As dynamics aspect that you mentioned before, I am not sure it will affected by master volume, not big deal for me since I play rock/metal high gain stuff A lot of people mentioned that helix sounds thin and lack of body and its very easy to get lost in the live full band mix, gain are the cause of this common problem because people tend to put much higher "gain parameter" at higher "master parameter" Since I am also like how fractal to sound, helix can sounda more like fractal by keeping master parameter low as possible (master vol at 1-3 and compensate the volume by increasing channel vol and IR db level parameter) , the thin and lack body that helix known of have solved, I got this info by watching videos of miko from ml sound lab, try to watch it sometimes: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mcBn37_g_78.html
